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Author Topic: Two Oscilloscope tests  (Read 47862 times)
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The significance of the waveform (bmp) and the data (csv) files.

Let me elaborate on the significance of the slides and the analysis of the data files here.
 

In the slide titled Experiment on Jan 8, 2012, we have the Output and the Input waveforms.  The display from the oscilloscope are the instantaneous value of Ch1 (top curve), the instantaneous value of Ch2 (bottom curve) and the instantaneous value of Ch1*Ch2 (middle curve).

In the experiment, Ch1 was used to measure the Instantaneous Voltage across the Input or the Output.  Ch2 was used to measure the instantaneous Current (voltage across two 1 ohm resistors connected in series).  The choice of two 1 ohm rather than one 1 ohm resistor was based on the better sensitivity with the two 1 ohm resistors.

In Physics and Electrical Engineering, the Instantaneous Power at any instant is equal to the Instantaneous Voltage multiplied by the Instantaneous Current at the same instant.  It does not matter whether the voltage is DC, AC or pulsed.  This scientific fact and technique is used in the calculation and comparison of Input and Output Power.

Another important scientific fact is the observing of Standing Waves.  Standing waves can be produced by the reflecting of the waves such as in sound resonance.  The same concept applies to electromagnetic waves.  We need to examine the waveform for nodes (maximum amplitude) and anti-nodes (minimum or zero amplitude).  In the Power Waveform, we can find that there are positive and negative areas.  We can interpret the positive area as power going out from the energy source to do work (heat up resistor, lighting LEDs etc.).  We can interpret the negative area as power coming back to feed the energy source (recharging battery or providing more flux change in the toroidal coils).

When we compare the Output and the Input waveforms, we could easily see that the Output Voltage is much greater than the Input Voltage.  Besides the eyeball technique, we can compare the peak-to-peak or rms values.  In this case, the Output Voltage peak-to-peak is 4.56V.  The Input Voltage peak-to-peak is 174mV.  The Output is greater than Input (for comparison with this value) is 26.2 times.

If we compare the Output Current (Ch2 values), the Output Ch2 peak-to-peak value is 32.6mV.  The Input Ch2 peak-to-peak value is 32.0mV.  The Output is greater than Input by 1.019 times.
The more significant observation is that the Output Power waveform has large positive and large negative areas.  It is not a perfect Standing Wave.  If we average out the positive and the negative areas, we may get a very low value.  This value is the energy required to maintain the Standing Wave.  For a perfect Standing Wave, this value should be zero.  In order to understand the Standing Wave, we need to examine the positive and negative area separately.

This brings us to the CSV files.  In the Atten Oscilloscope, I can get the CSC files which can be converted to Excel (xls) files.  The captured data consists of three columns.  The first column is the time with largest negative value increasing to 0 and then to the largest positive number in seconds.  This is related to the sampling time and interval.  The second column is the CH1 voltage and the third column is the Ch2 voltage value. 

Once we have the xls file, we can manipulate the data.  We can calculate the CH1*CH2 values (in column e).  From ADS00058, the average Output power = -0.0005.  From ADS00057, the average Input Power = 0.000226.   The Coefficient of Performance (COP) is the average Output divided by the Input Power.  In this case, the value is -2.2.  The negative sign is very significant.  It means that there is more power going back in the Output (secondary) circuit.  In other words, more energy is coming back than going out! 
Where does the extra energy come from?  From the Law of Conservation of Energy, energy cannot be created or destroyed.  My explanation is that the extra energy comes from the surrounding.  I used the term lead-out or bring-in energy. The FLEET prototypes happen to use the rapid and abrupt pulsing of the Joule Thief Circuit coupled with the appropriate resonance to bring-in the orbiting energy of the electrons.  (Much of the theory is discussed at overunityresearch.com under the ltseung888 bench).

If we look at column f in ASA00058, we find that the positive area sum is 9.470592 (column f) and the negative area sum is -15.057216.  The net result is -5.586624.  This should be compared with the corresponding values in the Input (ADS00057) file.  The corresponding values are:  2.621408, -0.080344 and 2.541064.  The result shows a much higher “energy” associated with the Output than Input.  It also shows the importance of examining the power waveform and the separation of positive and negative areas for analysis.  The simple use of the mean (or average) Power Value is not sufficient.

I welcome any constructive comments on the above analysis.  The data as presented already demonstrated overunity.  I shall publish more and better results in the next few weeks.  Some will be from people who is learning and using my Atten Oscilloscopes.

May God Guide us all.
   
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Experiment on Jan 11a

Try to determine the effect of length of wire. 

Jan11a used unnecessary length of extra wire.
Jan11b used minimum  length of wire.
   
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The two files ADS00067 and ADS00070 have been updated to include the positive and negative area only calculations.

The average or mean power is not sufficient to yield the full understanding.

Both the positive and the negative area of the Output Power curve are greater than those of Input.
   
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Today is Friday the thirteenth.

There is good news for the FLEET developers.

One application may be out withing weeks. We are one step closer to solving the energy crisis of the World.

Amen.

Edit: Knowledge is one of the rare things that - the more you give, the more you have!  
« Last Edit: 2012-01-14, 14:35:36 by ltseung888 »
   
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There is good news for the FLEET developers.

One application may be out within weeks. We are one step closer to solving the energy crisis of the World.

Amen.

Edit: Knowledge is one of the rare things that - the more you give, the more you have!  

I was watching an old TV drama from China.  It showed the discussions on how China or any under developed Nation should do.  The key concept was scientific knowledge and how to turn that knowledge into meaningful economic activities.

This may also apply to the Lead-out Energy Divine Revelations.  The West got its success via the scientific revolution.  Will the East rise via the energy revolution?   Will the Year of the Dragon stimulate the activities in the East?  Will the success of a simple application lead the way to the big revolution?

How would the US election affect the Lead-out Energy development?
   
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Experiments on Jan 16

These experiments started out with a working FLEET.  Measurements were taken and the CSV files were analyzed.  The average Input Power was negative.  That implies more energy is fed back to the source than supplied.  This by itself is an indication of overunity.

The working FLEET prototype was than totally disassembled.  It was reassembled on a different position on the breadboard.  The secondary circuit was placed farer away.  To our surprise, the COP from the average was 0.70 (less than 1).

When we observe the actual power curve, the Output was a bigger “standing wave” than the Input.  We then compared the positive and the negative only areas.  Such comparison showed that the Output was indeed more than Input.  Another surprising result was that both Input and Output average power was negative.  That implies both were “recharging circuits”.

The relevant files are shown and you are encouraged to examine the xls files.

May the Almighty continue to guide all lead-out energy researchers.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-17, 21:46:42 by ltseung888 »
   
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Experiment on Jan 22

The oscilloscopes were initially set to provide the highest sensitivity to yield the best CSV files.  The Output Scale and the Input Scale were set differently.  That confused some visiting engineers.

Their comments were - for the casual visitor, use the less sensitive (may be less accurate) settings so that a quick eyeball comparison will give the right conclusion that the Output Power Curve contains more area than the Input Power Curve.  That is sufficient to get the visitors thinking.

The high sensitivity set up for CSV files are for experts.  Do that only to the experts.  They are likely to spend much more time and may even try the thing out using their own familiar Oscilloscopes. 

Amen.
   
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I hosted a "Watch the State of the Union Address" and heard the great speech from President Obama.

Here is the follow-up email to the participants.

Follow-up on Create a Better World – watch State of the Union – Event

Total Number of participants = 13

Host: Lawrence Tseung, ltseung@hotmail.com, 949-278-4003, 239 Tall Oak Irvine CA 92603

Thank you for participating in a very memorable event.  The State of the Union Speech was one of the best I have ever heard.  It was good to have other supporters of different nationality and background to share the excitement.  I feel that together with President Obama, we can Create a Better World in the next four years.  The energy crisis of the World will be overcome.  There will be less pollution, fewer conflicts and wars because of oil.  We can enrich the most valuable asset of a person – the Mind.  Once the Mind is focused on peace and prosperity for all, the actions will follow.  Meaningful Economic Activities (modern wealth) will mushroom.

I have put my PowerPoint presentations as pdf files in overunityresearch.com under the bench of ltseung888.  You can check updates on the lead-out or bring-in energy technology from time to time.  Hopefully, I shall get some “gift hats” to give away sometime in the near future.
Thank you once again for the delicious food and Company.  We have a great president and we shall vote to give him more time to fulfill his promises.

Yours sincerely,
Lawrence Tseung


   

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Frequency equals matter...
Quote
The State of the Union Speech was one of the best I have ever heard. It was good to have other supporters of different nationality and background to share the excitement. I feel that together with President Obama, we can Create a Better World in the next four years. The energy crisis of the World will be overcome. There will be less pollution, fewer conflicts and wars because of oil. We can enrich the most valuable asset of a person – the Mind. Once the Mind is focused on peace and prosperity for all, the actions will follow. Meaningful Economic Activities (modern wealth) will mushroom.

Have you read any George Orwell, like Animal farm or 1984?
Raising taxes in a destroyed economy is self destruction.  If you look at the larger american cities that have been Demonatically controlled with welfare and entitlement you see total blight and anarchy in the extreme poverty stricken. Houston, Detroit , Philadelphia to name a few. These cities have been largely Demonatic for 30 years. And the people still cry out for mother's milk / Soma.
You seem like an educated person. Read the data and follow the money. Only 10% of the program funds get to the people that really need it. Most of the time its corruption and political graft.

Thank you for letting me [Share my excitement]. Those that believe their leaders don't own a gun.
One can only be lied to through their ears. Actions speak louder than words.


---------------------------
   
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I am too busy to engage in Political Debates.

But I do think that the State of the Union Address on Jan 24, 2012 was one of the best political speeches.

Attached is an updated pdf describing my thoughts.
   
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Reply to some questions

1.   I got a negative value on the average Input Power.  On examination of the waveform, I can see that the input voltage is fluctuating with a significant negative peak.  What does that mean?
When we examine the Power Curve (either Input or Output), Positive Power means energy coming from the source.  That is the normal case  Negative Power means energy going back to the source.  Even with normal AC systems, some negative power will be seen going back to the electrical companies.  If you have negative Input Power, Congratulations.  You have hit on a condition that more power is going back to your battery.

2.   When I use my Negative Input Power Prototype to light up LEDs, the battery life appeared to be much longer (at least 9 times) compared with a Positive Input Power Prototype.  If I use a rechargeable battery, will the battery life be even longer (perhaps infinitely longer)?
Try it.  I have some FLEET prototypes that lighted up LEDs for weeks.  If you check on the long Joule Thief thread at overunity.com, you will find similar claims.  I have not hit on an infinitely long condition yet.  However, I managed to use the circuit to recharge batteries.  You can get more information from Patrick Kelly’s eBook – Chapter 5.

3.   Have any one claimed that the Joule Thief is an overunity circuit?  It seemed that the circuit could light up many LEDs for long times.  Has any measurements been made?
Not all Joule Thief Circuits are overunity circuits.  You have to tune them to achieve overunity.  The best way of tuning is to use two oscilloscopes.  One to measure Input and another to measure Output.  If the scales were set to the same, eyeball comparison will give you a first order indication.  To be more scientific, you can analysis the CSV data files and do detailed spreadsheet analysis.  Please refer to my posts with attached csv files for details.  As for confirmation, please examine the threads by Prof. Steven Jones.  He is a retired Physics Professor at BYU.  He received two FLEET prototypes from me early 2011 and he was able to improve on them and used the high quality oscilloscopes from the University to confirm.

4.   With my negative average Input Prototype (sorry, no details), is that a breakthrough in itself?  The battery is receiving more energy back than it is giving.  Can that be real?  Does it violate any laws of Physics?
With the FLEET research, we believe that electron motion energy can be lead-out or brought-in.  That will not violate the Law of Conservation of Energy.  One condition for bringing-in such energy is via resonance.  Thus we look for characteristics of resonance such as pure sine waves no matter the waveform of Input, Standing Waves, High Output Power waveform compared with Input Power waveform etc.    Now you have raised another interesting characteristic – Negative Average Input Power.  (Same will apply to negative Output Power).  So please analyze your results with EXCEL on your csv files.

May the Almighty continue to guide the Wine Servers.
   
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Doing more on the CSV files

I used the data in the CSV file to get the Output Voltage Waveform and compared it with that from the bmp file.

Theoretically, they should be identical.  They are very close.  Thus the CSV files should be the ones to rely on scientifically.

See the attached file for details.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-30, 03:13:03 by ltseung888 »
   
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This is the first attempt in getting all relevant information in one file.
It requires more work.  I may add the theoretically explanation (summary) in also.

I would like to have the same format for presentation by all replicators.

That will greatly cut down the confusion.

Enjoy the Divine Wine.
   
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This is the second attempt.  It looks much better than the first.

Enjoy.
   
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I polished the information related to the prototype on Jan 11, 2012 using the new format.

The same air core toroid as the tests on Jqn 16 was used.  The holes on the breadboard are different.  The COP is very different.

This is the normal case.  Output Power > Input Power.  Both the positive and negative areas are larger.

COP is much greater than 1.

Enjoy the Divine Wine.
« Last Edit: 2012-01-31, 19:18:29 by ltseung888 »
   
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The Michael Du prototype has now been shown to over 10 qualified individuals.

The LEDs, resistors, etc. were unplugged and re-arranged.  The overunity result could be reproduced.

The prototype was taken to the dining table and put on the turn table for all to take pictures.

The results on Dec 5 are displayed here.
I just noticed this thread and my observed questions to the photos are:
This is a single layer of wire on a toroid, with a bifilar winding?   Same direction or counterwound?  Caduceus?   Two inputs and two outputs with a 1:1 set of coils?

Has the test been done on other oscilloscopes?

I admit I have no time right now to look at the whole thread, so I may be missing something.

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2012-02-02, 22:17:03 by the_big_m_in_ok »


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                                     --Roman proverb?
   
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The prototype on Feb 1, 2012.

I think I have finally found the best and easiest comparison of Output and Input Power.
I used 400 sample points for the comparison.  With EXCEL, I can plot the Instantaneous Output Power Curve and the Instantaneous Input Power Curve on the same plot.

Such waveform comparisons clearly showed that the Output Power Curve contains much more energy than the Input.

*** Edit:  Study the Power Waveform Comparison carefully.  I recommend two oscilloscopes because one can use eyeball comparison for tuning.  But for scientific recording purposes, the EXCEL comparison is essential.

Divine Wine is wonderful.
« Last Edit: 2012-02-02, 22:46:38 by ltseung888 »
   
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I just noticed this thread and my observed questions to the photos are:
This is a single layer of wire on a toroid, with a bifilar winding?   Same direction or counterwound?  Caduceus?   Two inputs and two outputs with a 1:1 set of coils?

Has the test been done on other oscilloscopes?

I admit I have no time right now to look at the whole thread, so I nay be missing something.

--Lee

There are two layers of windings.  The bottom layer is the standard Joule Thief winding.  The top layer has roughly the same number of turns wound in the same way (both clockwise).  The top layer can be treated as two separate secondary coils or connected as one.


If you do not have time, just read the last few posts.  This is a learning thread.  Things get better as I learn more.
   
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There are two layers of windings.  The bottom layer is the standard Joule Thief winding.  The top layer has roughly the same number of turns wound in the same way (both clockwise).  The top layer can be treated as two separate secondary coils or connected as one.
Yes, very good.   The top layer is essentially a center-tapped secondary---sort of (?)---with equally numbered windings and oriented coil turns.   Ordinary transformers don't step-up power like a toroid, since they aren't a toroid.   Yours does.   I hadn't heard of that before.
Quote
If you do not have time, just read the last few posts.  This is a learning thread.  Things get better as I learn more.
You bet.   I'm glad I'm here.   I should have more freedom and time in the future.   And I'll look at the past postings as you suggest.

--Lee


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                   --Valdemar  Valerian
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"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   
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The Secret of Joule Thief and FLEET Circuits

I have been working on the Joule Thief and FLEET Circuits for over two years now.  It was always a mystery to me why such simple circuits could light up hundreds and even thousands of LEDs; recharge batteries of higher voltage than the 1.5 V AA battery; prolong battery life for days or even weeks and perform the many wonders described in the long Joule Thief Threads in the Overunity.com forum.

Is the Joule Thief or FLEET circuit overunity?  I know that I can tune many Joule Thief circuits with the secondary coils until the Output Power Curve is greater than the Input Power Curve as seen on my two oscilloscopes.  However, the success rate is NOT 100%.

After so many experiments and studies, I believe the following is the secret of the Joule Thief and FLEET circuits.

1.   There is no violation of the Law of Conservation of Energy as Energy is Led-out or Brought-in from the surrounding.
2.   Such Led-out or Brought-in Energy is from the energy of the Orbiting Electrons.  Any Orbiting electron can act as a tiny magnet (dipole). 
3.   Chemical Energy is a result of the re-arrangement of the electron cloud around compounds.
4.   Electric or magnetic fields can affect the motion and/or orientation of the electrons.  Such fields can lead-out or bring-in the Energy of the orbiting electrons into the system.
5.   There are trillions of orbiting electrons.  They can affect their neighbors.  Thus Energy can be “sucked in” with a possible result of cooler temperature.
6.   In a normal AC transformer, the voltage or emf is related to the rate of change of magnetic flux per turn of wire.  Thus a 1:1 transformer cannot increase the secondary voltage but a 1:N ratio can.
7.   If there is a rapid change of magnetic flux, the normal transformer relationship in point 6 no longer holds.  The sudden cut off of electric current can produce a high magnetic flux change resulting in a higher emf or back emf as compared with results in point 6.  This is the secret why the Joule Thief or FLEET circuits can produce a very high Output Voltage with the same number of turns of wire.
8.   In a normal AC transformer, if the secondary voltage goes up, the secondary current must go down because of the Law of Conservation of Energy.
9.   In the case of the Joule Thief or FLEET circuits (if tuned to some type of resonance), Electron Motion Energy can be led-out or brought-in.  This results in a higher current than predicted by point 6.
10.   The best way to observe, measure or tune for overunity is to use two oscilloscopes.  One to display the Input Waveforms (Voltage, Current and Power).  The other to display the Output Waveforms.  In particular, the comparison of the Output and the Input Power Waveforms will give hints of overunity.
11.   The more scientific way is to analyze the oscilloscope data captured as CSV (EXCEL compatible format) files.  I usually set Channel 1 to measure the Voltage; Channel  2 to measure the Current (voltage across a 1 ohm resistor).  The CSV file will provide many thousand sample points and the corresponding time values.  We can then use EXCEL to get the Instantaneous Power (CH1*CH2) and plot the many different graphs for display.
12.   The COP (Coefficient of Performance) should be equal to the Average Power Output over the Average Power Input.  Such average Power values can be obtained easily with EXCEL.
13.   To be more exact, we need to analyze not just the average power value.  We must examine the positive and the negative only area of the Power Curves.
14.   Positive Power implies energy supplied to the Circuit.  Negative Power implies energy flowing back to the source.  In the case of Joule Thief or FLEET, the source is the battery.
15.   Actual experiments showed that both the Average Input Power and the Average Output Power can be positive or negative.   If the Average of the Input Power is negative, it implies that the Input Circuit is a recharging circuit.  More energy flows back to the battery than supplied!  This explains the very long battery life.
16.   If both the positive area and the negative area of the Output Power Curve are greater than those of Input, it implies a very large output activity.  The Output Power Standing wave contains much more energy than Input.  Thus many thousand LEDs can be lighted.
17.   The theoretical basis of the oscilloscope measurement is from the well accepted Physics principle – the Instantaneous Power is equal to the product of the Instantaneous Voltage and the Instantaneous Current. This principle holds no matter whether the system is DC, AC or Pulsed.
18.   Many configurations can produce a Joule Thief lighting a LED.  This led many to believe that all Joule Thief Circuits are equally capable.  This assumption is false.  A FLEET (Forever Lead-Out Electromagnetic Energy Transformer) has secondary coils on top of the Joule Thief tuned to some resonance condition so that COP >1.  Not all Joule Thief Circuits can be tuned to achieve COP > 1.
19.   Experimental observation showed that small changes in the FLEET circuit can have a large effect on the final waveform comparisons.  These small changes include different positions of the electronics on the breadboard, different length of wires, different value of resistors, capacitors, diodes, etc.  The biggest change usually comes from the toroid – different diameter, core material, number of windings, tightness of the winding, the pitch etc. 
20.   So far, I found that the COP performance to be empirical.  Once a good COP performer is obtained, one should work on it with the aim of turning it into a commercial product.  One of the Taiwan LED Manufacturers is improving their LED hat with such FLEET technology.
21.   Attached is a sample analysis with the Output Power and Input Power Waveform comparison.  With Two separate Atten Oscilloscopes, I can see the comparison directly.  Such an arrangement is ideal for tuning purposes.  But I strongly recommend the more scientific way – analyze the CSV files with EXCEL.
22.   I treat my work as Divine Revelations.  I did not perform the miracles.  I just help to serve the Divine Wine.  The Wine will benefit the entire Human Race. 
« Last Edit: 2012-02-04, 02:42:26 by ltseung888 »
   
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Ready-made air core of different sizes?
   
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A Tough Question?

The Taiwan LED manufacturing company asked: "Will there be harmful effects if one puts on the FLEET LED hat for long periods?"

What should be the answer?

   
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Here is the air toroid prototype testing again with new AA battery.

The Input Vpp was 2.8 Volts and the Output Vpp was 52 Volts.  The COP was -10.  The Average Input Power is negative.

The detailed csv file information is attached.
   
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I received the new Probes from Hong Kong.

I can now say with confidence that the two oscilloscope experiments are worthwhile.  The readings are reliable and the probes are of the right specifications.   (Actually the replacement probe was not bad except that we did not have the highest sensitivity.)

Here are the latest results with new battery and new probes.  COP = -78.

The most significant finding is the negative Input Power - recharging circuit.  Shall use rechargeable batteries in next group of tests.
« Last Edit: 2012-02-11, 21:38:32 by ltseung888 »
   
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Just used rechargeable batteries.  Apparently, the rechargeable  AA battery did not recharge with this configuration.

We previously used the configuration as described in Patrick Kelly's Ebook - Chapter 5 and that worked.

Shall use lead-acid batteries and/or repeat the old working configurations.

Divine Wine still needs to be bottled and served.
   
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