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Author Topic: 9/11 debate - enter at your own risk!  (Read 372981 times)
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  Interesting discussion.  I and colleagues have done a number of experiments on the dust produced by the falling WTC Towers using scanning electron microscopes and other tools, and we have published our results and conclusions.  Also, we have made measurements of the acceleration of WTC 7 during its dramatic fall-- this is the 47-story building that was NOT hit by a plane yet collapsed to its footprint on the afternoon of 9/11/2001.

  Four of my peer-reviewed published papers are referenced here, near the top of my web page:

http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/



You might want to take a look at the HARD EVIDENCE which challenges the official government narrative of 9/11.  
« Last Edit: 2011-11-30, 02:19:15 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   

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@PhysicsProf
Try watching these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXxynEDpwrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tacYjsS-g6k&feature=related

instead of what your currently watching.  And if your such a smart man why don't you know anything about Islam and don't tell me you do, it is quite obvious you do not!  The real hard evidence is with Islam.  Peer-reviewed by some of your hard left college buddies yea I'll believe whatever you and they say.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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It's turtles all the way down
To a few that have recently posted some revealing points of view, which speak volumes of themselves.

Perhaps you never read the predictions of George Orwell in "1984". You would have learned that wars are not to be won, but to be continued. Remember "War is peace".

Wars are extremely profitable for those who wage them and those who collect the debt of the population forced to fight them, not so profitable for the boots on the ground who pay the price in blood and loss of life.

Reasons for war are always needed, when not available they are "created" Now we have the "faceless" boogey man of terrorism.

If you watch too much TV and listen to all the talking heads, you will believe all this nonsense. If so, I suggest you sign up now to go fight in foreign lands. The future gene pool wil not miss those with such a continued ignorance of history.


---------------------------
Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   
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To a few that have recently posted some revealing points of view, which speak volumes of themselves.

Perhaps you never read the predictions of George Orwell in "1984". You would have learned that wars are not to be won, but to be continued. Remember "War is peace".

Wars are extremely profitable for those who wage them and those who collect the debt of the population forced to fight them, not so profitable for the boots on the ground who pay the price in blood and loss of life.

Reasons for war are always needed, when not available they are "created" Now we have the "faceless" boogey man of terrorism.

If you watch too much TV and listen to all the talking heads, you will believe all this nonsense. If so, I suggest you sign up now to go fight in foreign lands. The future gene pool wil not miss those with such a continued ignorance of history.

Well said, ION.. We're on the same page. 

Not so with Room3327 obviously, but if you want a serious discussion on 9/11 -- start with the observed free-fall acceleration of WTC 7 (which even NIST finally admitted to, when their original "constant velocity" nonsense was challenged by myself and physicist David Chandler).
Quote
Room3327: hard left college buddies yea 

Just so you know, my choice for President would be Ron Paul. 
   
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 Interesting discussion.  I and colleagues have done a number of experiments on the dust produced by the falling WTC Towers using scanning electron microscopes and other tools, and we have published our results and conclusions.
Take a look at this...here.
I'll tell you what.   I've seen things that are either naturally unexplainable or artificially impossible in my life.   This cop cruiser sticks out in may mind:  The front 2/3 thirds is  well!  blistered, but the back 1/3 is relatively undamaged.

Here's a point:  There are pros and cons to the conspiracy debate.     http://www.AboveTopSecret.com    has many threads devoted to this 9/11 conspiracy, or there are others to be further debated.   Perceptions are key to this issue.   Anyone can see what they want or not.   Personal opinions, beliefs, and past experiences can color the situation.   I can't convince anyone I'm correct in my opinion on something as contentious as 9/11, so I hardly try.    Some information I may have been given by those who were capable of knowing any truth in, say, related fields of either experience or investigation will have to remain with me.   I will say:  The conspiracy theorists and the debunkers can both not necessarily be precise in their findings.  Why?   There are things they can assume on the basis of their training and experience that can be insufficient to analyze precisely the actual situation.  Others with different, more specialized, training can know more.   I'd compare it to animals and children merely looking and casually observing their surroundings without being able to comprehend and discern why whole scene is the way it is.   Some of what I've been told, and also the way my mind functions, disallows my saying more in terms of detail.   I've been asked not to.  Both sides of the debate aren't looking close enough or aren't "thinking outside the box" with respect to this issue of what happened on 9/11.   You'll have to try and figure it out on your own.
        (I'm being "long-winded", so to speak because I'll have a job shortly where I'll need to be fully explanatory to make sure my point is made clear.   My correspondents will give me all the time I need in discussion.)
Quote
...Also, we have made measurements of the acceleration of WTC 7 during its dramatic fall-- this is the 47-story building that was NOT hit by a plane yet collapsed to its footprint on the afternoon of 9/11/2001. ...
...
Four of my peer-reviewed published papers are referenced here, near the top of my web page:
...
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/
...
You might want to take a look at the HARD EVIDENCE which challenges the official government narrative of 9/11.  
Alright, I can take a look at your research papers.   I've read many papers on different subjects in my time as an informal researcher.   This may take some time in the future, and I may or may not have the time to spare at leisure.   I'll try and get back to you on that.   This forum is being sidetracked, but until recently, I was the main contributor to the threads.   I at least will also try to get back on topic whenever possible.
Reedit:
First off:  Not all papers are available to me.   SpringerLink is a reprint archive for papers dealing with a variety of subjects.   Without a personal subscription, or my having to travel to the local university, I get no free downloads.   However, I was able to download the paper on "Active Thermite Material..." by Harrit, et al.
        I supose I can read that first, but the others need to be on a free download archival service or else the likes of a university archival library site for myself and others to download a printoff.

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2011-11-27, 01:14:32 by the_big_m_in_ok »


---------------------------
"The truth comes from wisdom, and widsom comes from experience."
                   --Valdemar  Valerian
                   --from the Matrix series of books

 
"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   

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Quote from: Room3327
...
Try watching these videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oXxynEDpwrA&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tacYjsS-g6k&feature=related

instead of what your currently watching.  And if your such a smart man why don't you know anything about Islam and don't tell me you do, it is quite obvious you do not!  The real hard evidence is with Islam.  Peer-reviewed by some of your hard left college buddies yea I'll believe whatever you and they say.

This sort of tough talk nearly always originates
from agents of the parties truly responsible for
"911" and associated mayhem.

"Things" are never as they seem in today's world
where deception and promotion of an AGENDA
are beamed towards the masses non-stop by
a compliant and complicit media. 

Those who behind the scenes are making "things"
happen are soon to be revealed as the masses
further awaken with an intense desire to know
the full and complete truth;  the shield of deception
has been broached.

In the end the "Good Guys" really do win!

Professor Jones has made a great contribution to
the cause for truth and justice.


---------------------------
"Truth: the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death." - John Gilmore (1935- ) Author
   
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  Thanks Dumped -- and @all for comments. 

@Lee -- I cited my web page, which LINKS to three of the 4 papers.  Please therefore go here to get at these three papers at NO CHARGE (this is one of the reasons we selected these particular journals -- FREE access on-line).


http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/

Thanks for your willingness to read these papers.  The fourth paper, Journal of the Utah Academy of Sciences, Arts and Letters, 83:252, Apr 2006, I count as  my first peer-reviewed publication; but it is not available on-line, unfortunately. 

 I should link to my Australia talk also, a decent summary I think -- including SEC'Y of Transportation Mineta's testimony re: No air defenses on 9/11 and Mr. Cheney...  (Cheney makes me sick, too, EMd.)  Covers the free-fall acceleration of WTC7 also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GAmXfSLHajM

This talk in Sacramento also provides an overview of 9/11 research I've been involved in:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LDVWlUy0BWo&feature=related

Both YT vids are in several parts.  Sorry for the hijacked thread...  but glad you fellas are interested in world events!


   
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Perhaps someone can start a thread about this.  Personally, I think Occam's razor wins out here.  The buildings collapsed because fuel-laden jets were flown into them.  The dust from the collapsed buildings was nasty, which is not surprising.  We live in an era of hypersensitivity with respect to our environment and our exposure to different substances, etc.

I watched just the first clip of the eight-part series on YouTube, "911 Dr Steven E. Jones - Science and Society."  Dr. Jones makes a point of stating that the investigation board in their report stated that they could not fully explain why the towers collapsed.  The meaning behind that statement is being twisted as far as I am concerned.  It's simply good science to be conservative, because the ultimate truth is that nobody really knows the exact, precise technical reasons for the building's collapse.  However, there is arguably convergence on an answer.  You put all of the pieces together and most of them fit and converge on an answer.  Some of them might not fit, and it's because nobody knows the actual truth, we are not gods.  You simply don't obsess over the fact that some pieces of the puzzle don't appear to fit.  They would fit if you were all-knowing, but you can't be all-knowing.

The truthers hang on subjective observations and wild speculations.  Look at the business where one single reporter stated that he thought the second plane didn't look like a commercial jet, he saw no windows and recognizable markings on the plane.  Anybody that takes this on face value needs to watch the movie "Twelve Angry Men."  The simple truth of the matter is this:  If you asked 25 people to describe a plane flying by in the sky under similar conditions to what that reporter saw then the chances of them all describing the same thing are zero.  People are notoriously unreliable when it comes to describing their observations in a consistent manner.  One person's blue is another person's gray or purple.  Plus what a person "sees" is what his visual system "creates" for him to see.  When we look at the world with our eyes, we don't see "reality" we see what our brain has massaged into our perception of reality.  Just look up optical illusions on YouTube.  How come you see a spiral but when you trace the lines out with your mouse on the screen you can clearly see it's not a spiral?  Your brain can't cope and decides to make you "see" a spiral when it's not even there.  Ditto for the reporter.

Final thought:  Modern buildings are like fragile snow crystals.  They just have enough materials in them to give you the required structural integrity to stay up and meet all building codes.  It's not like the buildings that were built in the 20s, 30s, and 40s.  Those older skyscrapers were solid massive structures built with bricks and concrete and steel with outer walls several feet thick.  New buildings are like "ultra lightweights" compared to the earlier "heavyweights."  Give them an unexpected shock and they will crumble into dust.  The larger the building the more this effect comes into play.  The relative strengths of materials decrease as you go up in size.  A simple example is a large ship like an aircraft carrier.  If an aircraft carrier crashed into a dock at one-half mile per hour, it would be disastrous.  On the scale of the size of an aircraft carrier the metal that makes up the bow of the ship may as well be putty.  If the ship crashes into the dock, the metal will buckle and deform like putty.  When you go the other way, the smaller you get the relative strength of materials increase.  That's why grains of sand only get so small.  A grain of sand under normal conditions is for all practical intents and purposes indestructible.
« Last Edit: 2011-11-27, 17:32:30 by MileHigh »
   

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Well said MH,
  I would like to know why none of the rest you have addressed the elephant in the room.  With all this banter no one has brought up ISLAM, which is the elephant in the room,  You say we are fighting terrorism and don't know who our enemy is, I say BS we know who the enemy is! just because no one wants to name the elephant in the room it does not mean the elephant doesn't exist.

If 911 was our own government perpetrating this on us, and you are trying to say the Bush administration came up with this conspiracy, think about it.  Bush was only in the white house for a few months before this happened.  Could you possibly think that that was enough time to plan and execute a conspiracy of this size and plant all the explosives etc. you think were used to carry this whole thing out.  If not Bush then the explosives must have planted before his administration, then you must mean that the Clinton administration did it, at least they had time to plan it and set it up. So are you telling me the Clinton government and the Democrats planned 911 and perpetrated it on us.  Just what are you people saying?

And I really love the accusations of being a disinformant, that is really funny.  Anyone who doesn't agree with your personal twisted beliefs is obviously an agent provocateur and must be working with the enemy, because they couldn't possibly be as intelligent as you people.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
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the 911 buildings was nuked.
http://wtcdemolition.blogspot.com/
   

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the 911 buildings was nuked.
http://wtcdemolition.blogspot.com/


Your trying to tell me the towers were blown up from the bottom :D I guess I shouldn't believe my own lyin eyes, I could have sworn they came down from the top.


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   
Group: Guest
It's amazing that some people can actually believe that the twin towers were nuked.

However, it's not really surprising if you want to assume that you can treat human thought patterns like a statistical variable.  The range in thought patterns (or world views) can be modeled like a bell curve, a.k.a., a normal distribution.



The society is not healthy without the lunatic fringe!
   
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@Room3327
shock wave powdered all buildings structures except in the top.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/sociopolitica/esp_sociopol_911_154.htm

And here we have Dimitri Khalezov of Russia revealing that it is standard policy in the United States to use such a device when constructing very large buildings.)

Dimitri replied:

    "About the nuclear device under the U.N. building, I did not know that before, but it sounds reasonable to me. Because since the Controlled Demolition Inc. has patented nuclear technique for demolition, it would be reasonable to expect that they would promote it to get more contracts to secure more work for the future. This is capitalism, after all and everyone is after profits...

     

    It should be noted that the nuclear weapons manufacturers are not 'commercialized' and to use nuclear devices on some commercial projects is a rare opportunity for them to get into some commerce too. So, why not use such an opportunity? So, I would not be surprised at all if this is true as reported by Russbacher.

     

    Moreover, since the publication of my 9/11 movie, I've read even stranger news on the Internet regarding a Japanese architect who claimed that at least two skyscrapers in Japan also have nuclear devices installed under them by the Controlled Demolition Inc. (not surprising, considering that the initial architect of the WTC was a Japanese guy and he understandably brought this kind of idea back to Japan).

     

    It looks awful, to be honest... I do remember that the U.N. building was promptly evacuated on 9/11 and it was also reported on television as a piece of important news."
« Last Edit: 2011-11-27, 20:14:07 by tysb3 »
   
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...Sorry for the hijacked thread...  but glad you fellas are interested in world events!
The question I have---briefly---is can this discussion be held in a more general setting on the OUR.com site?   This is a Bench forum, and I'd like it to stay that way.

Peterae or another Moderator may be able to advise me on this.   I'll start a thread, if you like, on an appropriate Forum--just not here.

--Lee


---------------------------
"The truth comes from wisdom, and widsom comes from experience."
                   --Valdemar  Valerian
                   --from the Matrix series of books

 
"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   
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  Interesting.  I'm traveling today through Wednesday, not likely to post again until I return.

But note MH:
Quote
The buildings collapsed because fuel-laden jets were flown into them.

No, WTC 7 was NOT HIT BY A JET.  Try again.  I suggested that we begin with WTC 7.

Room states:

 
Quote
Could you possibly think that that was enough time to plan and execute a conspiracy of this size and plant all the explosives etc. you think were used to carry this whole thing out.

And yet -- you're willing to believe that 19 hijackers and a guy with a lap-top in Afghanistan could carry it OUT?  Including NO AIR DEFENSES on that day and the destruction of WTC7 which was NOT hit by a jet?   :D

The hard physical evidence such as free-fall of WTC 7 for over 100 feet, and the presence of active thermitic material in the WTC dust (there is much more) points to the use of explosives/incendiaries.  Exactly HOW and WHO pulled this off would require a criminal investigation; that's what we're asking for. 
BTW -- I check for radiation in the dust and in a section of WTC steel -- none above background level.  The evidence is strongly against the use of a nuclear bomb in the WTC.

Lets focus on the scientific evidence regarding the free-fall ACCELERATION of WTC 7; how do you explain that?  
And I agree with OK this would be better in a separate thread.

See y'all in a few days.
   
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As to Professor's post #45,
I'm PMing Peterae to coach me on setting up a separate thread to discuss this elsewhere, even with my own participation.   These posts will be exported there for additional debate.

This is an electronic research Bench.   The new thread will be in a more general Forum suited to its topic.

--Lee


---------------------------
"The truth comes from wisdom, and widsom comes from experience."
                   --Valdemar  Valerian
                   --from the Matrix series of books

 
"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   
Group: Guest
Continuation of debate from Lee's bench thread.
   
Group: Guest
The new thread has been created in the miscellaneous discussion section.  "9/11 debate - enter at your own risk!"
   
Group: Guest
Last post from PhysicsProf:

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Interesting.  I'm traveling today through Wednesday, not likely to post again until I return.

But note MH:
Quote
The buildings collapsed because fuel-laden jets were flown into them.

No, WTC 7 was NOT HIT BY A JET.  Try again.  I suggested that we begin with WTC 7.

Room states:

 
Quote
Could you possibly think that that was enough time to plan and execute a conspiracy of this size and plant all the explosives etc. you think were used to carry this whole thing out.

And yet -- you're willing to believe that 19 hijackers and a guy with a lap-top in Afghanistan could carry it OUT?  Including NO AIR DEFENSES on that day and the destruction of WTC7 which was NOT hit by a jet?   Cheesy

The hard physical evidence such as free-fall of WTC 7 for over 100 feet, and the presence of active thermitic material in the WTC dust (there is much more) points to the use of explosives/incendiaries.  Exactly HOW and WHO pulled this off would require a criminal investigation; that's what we're asking for.
BTW -- I check for radiation in the dust and in a section of WTC steel -- none above background level.  The evidence is strongly against the use of a nuclear bomb in the WTC.

Lets focus on the scientific evidence regarding the free-fall ACCELERATION of WTC 7; how do you explain that?  And I agree with OK this would be better in a separate thread.

See y'all in a few days.
   
Group: Guest
PhysicsProf:

Quote
Lets focus on the scientific evidence regarding the free-fall ACCELERATION of WTC 7; how do you explain that?

I have a theory for that, but since you are very involved in this issues, may I ask you for your explanation first?  This is a serious question, not trying to be argumentative.  It would be nice to know your views on this first.

I know that you are traveling, so whenever you have the time.

MileHigh
   

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Quote
And yet -- you're willing to believe that 19 hijackers and a guy with a laptop in Afghanistan could carry it OUT?  Including NO AIR DEFENSES on that day and the destruction of WTC7 which was NOT hit by a jet?   


First: I am sorry to the-big-M, for starting this in your bench, I will get out of here.

Second: But this first:  Yes Prof I am willing to believe that that is exactly what happened! Why, because they spent years preparing for this, which is widely known, and Bin Laden himself took credit for planing and executing it.  Bin Laden is on tape telling people like you that he did it and yet you still don't believe that a band of religious fanatics could have possible done it.  Why? because you obviously do not know anything about Islam!

I don't have a problem with you Prof. In fact I kind of like you. But you also do not know everything there is to know. None of us do, so don't act like the fount of all knowledge, many of the people here know much more then you do on a number of subjects, I am just tired of left wingers acting like they hold the high ground on every subject and problem there is.

May I also recommend that you read through the sites you frequent,  I spent 3 and a half years reading every post made at Overunity.com before I joined or posted.
There just may actually be good information at the energy forums that has been buried by the BS.

I'm done lets take this to a different thread./


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   

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tExB=qr
WTC 7's Facade Plunged at a Nearly Free-Fall Rate

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/analysis/wtc7/speed.html
   
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It's turtles all the way down
It all ties together when you take the time to do the investigative research as opposed to just having an "opinion".

But first you've got to deprogram yourself: Start by turning off your TV and start emptying your head of everything you've been programmed to believe about 9/11.

The programming is sometimes subtle, sometimes in your face, nevertheless it continues to bolster and buttress the fiction that has been created for you to believe.

I'm really not interested in debating with the likes of MH and Room 3327, as they have opinions, but have not spent the last ten years doing intensive research, collecting data, scrutinizing the crime scene and the likely motives of the criminals.

It would take way too long to get them up the learning curve, and as such, they are fairly un-redeemable and not worth the effort, unless you've got many years to waste with them, which I don't. Their programming is burned into fusible ROM. New data will not append or amend their core program.

There is the hate program of Room3327: simply stated: all Muslims are evil and we we must war against them.

For MH it is Occams Razor defense, which in this case does not apply and need not apply. You are after all dealing with sinister plots of extreme obfuscation.with  many layers of sheep dip to hide the truth. We know we plan such things, if you don't believe it, read some of the declassified documents concerning our planned invasion of Cuba by General L. Lemnitzer.

Also read the "Project for a New American Century" or PNAC. It outlines the master plan for domination of the mideast and it's oil reserves, published in 1999, and calling for the necessity of a "Pearl Harbor" like event if we are to convince the masses such an escapade is worth pursuing.

We definitely needed such as an event before we could convince our children it is ok to sign up to fight "terrorism" around the globe.

So I would rate MH and Room 3327 as part of the "Lunatic Fringe" of which MH speaks. Regarding the bell curve, unfortunately in this case the Lunatic "fringe" dominate the center of the bell curve especially in the USA where the propaganda machine is working day and night to keep the fiction going.

The rabbit hole is deep indeed, and only the courageous are able to go there. Others would have to forgo cherished lifelong belief systems which are far too dear for them to let go of. It is a difficult task for sure.

You see the problem.
« Last Edit: 2011-11-28, 20:09:14 by ION »


---------------------------
Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   
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First: I am sorry to the-big-M, for starting this in your bench, I will get out of here.

I'm done lets take this to a different thread./
Well, alright, thank you.   I'll accept your apology with this provision:

I PMed Peterae to ask him (he knows) how the transfer of info would go smoothly between this thread and Forum and any other on the site, especially a 9/11 thread started by me or anyone else.   Since I have control of this Forum Bench, I can do that from the "Additional Options" mouse click icon   Your 9/11 thread is under the control of the site Moderators and the Administrator (Peterae).   If I import the extraneous posts to  the thread you started, it'll confuse people, most likely.

That's why I asked him first.   I'm an American Vet, and I report to superiors first.   That's how I was trained.   Even if it's somewhat, rather,  very!   :D >:( ;D C.C :P   harsh-sounding, I'm making that point.   I ask permission on someone else's Forum, since I don't control it---they do.

I still need some way to proceed with these 9/11 posts.   If all of you want another thread, I'll delete these extra ones except this one, as an announcement of my intentions.

Last call:   Do any of the Members have an opinion on this course of action immediately above?

--Lee


---------------------------
"The truth comes from wisdom, and widsom comes from experience."
                   --Valdemar  Valerian
                   --from the Matrix series of books

 
"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   
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Posts: 427
MileHigh,
Concerning this thread and the posts on my forum thread:

I just finished a well-worded, sorta short tirade   :D ;D >:( :P  (with these cute smiley faces)  post on my Bench, as to what I want to do with the 9/11 posts there.   Delete them (they're perfectly good for this discussion) or import them here?   I have the ability there, but they stay here after they arrive---this isn't my Forum.

My post is still there and will remain there as an announcement of my intentions.   I'm putting a notification and return-to-topic check mark on this thread.

--Lee


---------------------------
"The truth comes from wisdom, and widsom comes from experience."
                   --Valdemar  Valerian
                   --from the Matrix series of books

 
"Whosoever speaks or otherwise acts, has no secrets."
                                     --Roman proverb?
   
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