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Author Topic: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power  (Read 14543 times)
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Hi everyone,
 
 over 2 years ago I started a topic at OU about a AC Permanent Magnet Motor Design idea I had that its motive force would mostly come from Permanent magnets.
 
 Maybe I didn't explain all the design advantages well enough then when I fist introduced it  :P so I decided to build a small prototype and do a better video. In this video I demonstrate the design idea I had 2 years ago of bridging over the opposite pole of the Magnet using steel lamination over the outside of the coil.  This takes advantage of the coils outside opposite field which close to doubles the motive force without using additional current..
 
 Please keep in mind that the coil I'm using in this demo model maybe far from optimum. I still need to learn about coil time constant. There are also many other details that could be optimized. So I think it would be fair to say that the motive force could be doubled without additional current input.
 
 I need to learn more about how to calculate the ideal coil resistance and turns for a particular on time, voltage and frequency. So if anyone can see obvious things from the scope shots that the coils on time power is being wasted (not making a strong field) please advise me.
 I also need to learn the proper specs for making a Pony Brake to do some load tests.
 
 
Links to video's:
Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part A:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYoXmDvFqQs

Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor Part B:  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KnAeIE_NWjU


Your input is welcomed


Luc
   
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Here are some scope shots.

ADDED
Please note that the test below is to determined how much this mostly magnet motor is affected by the Generator effect. I am not trying to make a Generator out of it.

The first shot is with the motor working on a 1.3vdc input through a 1 Ohm shunt Resistor in series with probe 1 connected across it and probe 2 is across the coil. Both probe grounds are on the same side of the Resistor (standard current and voltage phase setup). Math function is on probe 1 x probe 2

The next shot is to test the motor as Generator, so now the mostly magnet motor coil is connected to a 10 Ohm load with probe 1 connected across the 1 Ohm series shunt and probe 2 is the voltage across the coil (same as above). I'm using the 12vdc motor (attached to flywheel) as primed mover. The input to the 12vdc motor is 380ma @ 12.63vdc = 4.8 Watts to turn it at the speed of the 2nd scope shot below. It looks to me that at that RPM (which is faster then the previous test) the Generator coil is outputting around 0.070 Watts

To me it looks like the mostly magnet motor is not a good Generator considering the amount of input energy needed to the prime mover. However, we need to keep in mind that the 12vdc motor is operating at a much lower RPM then it was designed for, so it could get better. However there seems to be quite a difference.

ADDED
Details on the Coil:
The mostly magnet motor coil has 4 Ohms DC resistance, made of about 0.8mm to 0.9mm magnet wire, wound bifilar connected in series. It has 19 milli Henry when at each ends of the core and 22.5 milli Henry when at center of core. The actual coil size (not including bobbin) opening is 14mm x 20mm and is 17mm wide

Comments please

Luc

http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad290/gotoluc/AsMotorwith13vdcinput.png
Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power


http://i944.photobucket.com/albums/ad290/gotoluc/AsGeneratoron10OhmLoadwith12vdcmotorturningitwith380ma1263vdcinput.png
Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor with minimal Input Power
« Last Edit: 2012-04-14, 16:35:30 by gotoluc »
   
Group: Guest
Here are some scope shots.

The first shot is with the motor working on a 1.3vdc input through a 1 Ohm shunt Resistor in series with probe 1 connected across it and probe 2 is across the coil. Both probe grounds are on the same side of the Resistor (standard current and voltage phase setup). Math function is on probe 1 x probe 2

The next shot is to test the motor as Generator, so now the mostly magnet motor coil is connected to a 10 Ohm load with probe 1 connected across the 1 Ohm series shunt and probe 2 is the voltage across the coil (same as above). I'm using the 12vdc motor (attached to flywheel) as primed mover. The input to the 12vdc motor is 380ma @ 12.63vdc = 4.8 Watts to turn it at the speed of the 2nd scope shot below. It looks to me that at that RPM (which is faster then the previous test) the Generator coil is outputting around 0.070 Watts

To me it looks like the mostly magnet motor is not a good Generator considering the amount of input energy needed to the prime mover. However, we need to keep in mind that the 12vdc motor is operating at a much lower RPM then it was designed for, so it could get better. However there seems to be quite a difference.

Comments please

Luc



Hi  Luc,

Yes, it could be magnet motor is not a good generator, but it also could be the magnet motor is not a good motor. 

I think you should also have a scope shot of your motor without magnets.  We can then compare how much efficiency gain having extra magnets.  I think this concept is the same as the stargate motor I see on youtube.  He puts extra magnets around the stator and gain efficiency.

   
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As per Stefan Hartmann request (Overunity Forum Administrator)I have made a new video demo.
Stefan says:
a device that can show more vertical lift height in ONE shot , that
does not comply to the energy conservation formular:

m x g x h = 0.5 x C x Voltage^2

will show overunity.

So if you can lift a weight vertically up into the air higher than the stored cap
voltage will tell you, you have a winner....!

Regards, Stefan.



Link to new video: Mostly Permanent Magnet Motor test 4 - YouTube

Let me know what you think

Luc
   
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Stefan's thinking is brilliant.  I've done some rough calculation.

4700uf 26V = .5(.0047)(26)(26) = 1.59 J

Let's say our total weight is 300 grams. The height needs to reach OU is:

.3(9.8 ) (h) = 1.59
h             = .54 meters (about 1.7 feet)

This is far from OU.  However, it is interesting that adding magnets keep increasing energy.   I don't think there is a limit to how much energy  you can get by stacking magnetic strength.  
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Nice work Luc!  ;)
   
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Hi Luc,

In case you cannot find a permanent magnet that is strong enough, I propose a method to do this test with customize electromagnet. 

Below is the drawing of such set up.  Two coils are being slide along a core rod.  The orientation such that when current is passing though, they will repel each other.  The coils could be tapped at various points to provide more experimental flexibility.

   
Group: Moderator
Sr. Member
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Posts: 386
Stefan's thinking is brilliant.  I've done some rough calculation.

4700uf 26V = .5(.0047)(26)(26) = 1.59 J

Let's say our total weight is 300 grams. The height needs to reach OU is:

.3(9.8 ) (h) = 1.59
h             = .54 meters (about 1.7 feet)

This is far from OU.  However, it is interesting that adding magnets keep increasing energy.   I don't think there is a limit to how much energy  you can get by stacking magnetic strength.  

Hi GibbsHelmholtz,

thanks for your posts.

Yes, that test did not score well. So I did a new one, see video link below.
In the new test the coil weight is 120g and goes up 1mm using 0.272uf capacitive discharge. Try the math on that test and see how well it scores

Link ti new test video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qaNYSroHuak

Luc
   
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Posts: 386
Nice work Luc!  ;)

Thanks man 8)

Luc
   
Group: Moderator
Sr. Member
*****

Posts: 386
Hi Luc,

In case you cannot find a permanent magnet that is strong enough, I propose a method to do this test with customize electromagnet. 

Below is the drawing of such set up.  Two coils are being slide along a core rod.  The orientation such that when current is passing though, they will repel each other.  The coils could be tapped at various points to provide more experimental flexibility.



Good idea!... I'll keep it in mind

Thanks for sharing

Luc
   
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Posts: 386
Hi everyone,
 
I have been working on improving this motor design which I came up with some years back.
The idea of this motor design was to mostly use the flux of powerful Neodymium Magnets we now have, since in a standard magnet motor we would not get a power gain just by upgrading the old ceramic magnets to Neodymium Magnets, as we would also have to add more power to the motor coils to overcome the extra attraction force the Neo Magnets have.
However, in my motor design there is no sticky spot, so the more flux the magnets have the more mechanical power the motor has without changing the input power.
 
I have made a new video which demonstrates this and also demonstrates a better magnet and cores position which takes full advantage of both Permanent Magnet Poles and of the Electromagnet Poles.

This improvement basically double the mechanical output power of my first design without any increase to the input power.

The video should be self explanatory

http://youtu.be/-eTQ49RcFKM

Luc
« Last Edit: 2013-07-20, 16:36:55 by gotoluc »
   
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