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Allcanadian
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« Reply #100 on: 2013-01-15, 17:52:42 »
@Exn
I think we could make a few simple assumptions here, first the Hendershot device must extract energy from somewhere if it worked as claimed. Second if his device worked as claimed then there is some process operating which we do not understand. In which case it seems logical that we should examine the basic premise of how energy can be extracted from ambient forms of energy or man-made sources at a distance.

It may be that if we could develop a device to extract tangible amounts of energy from a power line at a distance then we would basically have a wireless means of power transmission. The boys at MIT have been working on this however they are using a very specific setup. Now if we could develop better ways to extract EM energy from a power line which is not completely dissimilar from what the boys at MIT are doing then it seems logical this could apply to ambient sources in some way.
I'm not suggesting stealing power I'm speaking about a better way to extract energy which we may consider ambient energy, low energy sources covering a large area.

I mean no offense but all of your posts revolve around why everything cannot work and you seem to be implying that nothing can ever work in my opinion. To me this is pointless because you are not part of any solution to producing a real device which works. Maybe we should try something different, rather than constantly telling us what cannot work how about telling us how this device could work, hypothetically speaking of course, do you have any ideas?.

AC

Last Edit: 2013-01-15, 18:53:17 by allcanadian
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"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

There is infinitely more that we do not know, than we know.
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #101 on: 2013-01-18, 16:26:24 »
@Exn
You may have noticed I did not use the term power I used the term ENERGY, and yes ENERGY does radiate from the source

Energy of power lines doesn't radiate (the radiated part is fortunately negligible otherwise there would be no more energy at the end of the power lines).
Energy is stored in the magnetic and electric fields of the line and there is a periodic energy exchange between the fields and the current, at the curent frequency. This field can be shared with a receiver, for instance, coupled lamps.

Something radiating is autonomous. It's not the case here, which is quasi-stationary. We have fields, we have not waves. Energy is taken from the line only when there are coupled circuits in its field, dissipating energy in a load. When the load is removed, energy is no more taken from the line, this is the proof that energy is not radiated, unlike the case of a receivig radio antenna whose the presence or the absence doesn't influence the energy radiated by a transmitter.

You have personnal interpretation and language about a common and well known phenomenon, leading to unprecise, not relevant and even, misleading concepts.


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exnihiloest
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« Reply #102 on: 2013-01-18, 17:32:23 »
@Exn
I think we could make a few simple assumptions here, first the Hendershot device must extract energy from somewhere if it worked as claimed. Second if his device worked as claimed then there is some process operating which we do not understand. In which case it seems logical that we should examine the basic premise of how energy can be extracted from ambient forms of energy or man-made sources at a distance.

It's useless to propose a conventional and well known phenomenon, such magnetic/electric fields similar to those of power lines, to explain the extraordinary phenomenon supposedly at work in the Hendershot's device, except if there is some clue that Hendershot demonstrated his device under power lines or in a tremendous level of electric or magnetic fields.

Quote
...
I mean no offense but all of your posts revolve around why everything cannot work and you seem to be implying that nothing can ever work in my opinion. To me this is pointless because you are not part of any solution to producing a real device which works. Maybe we should try something different, rather than constantly telling us what cannot work how about telling us how this device could work, hypothetically speaking of course, do you have any ideas?.

AC

It's much more positive to dismiss absurdities, than to propose ones by neglecting the facts, by taking pleasure from a wishful thinking or by refusal of learning science.

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exnihiloest
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« Reply #103 on: 2013-01-18, 17:33:07 »
How long have you two been married ?

Tongue

DC.


 Grin
Time to leave him, please take him with you, you will save me.

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Allcanadian
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« Reply #104 on: 2013-01-18, 22:19:32 »
@Exn
Quote
It's much more positive to dismiss absurdities, than to propose ones by neglecting the facts, by taking pleasure from a wishful thinking or by refusal of learning science.

I guess this is where our beliefs diverge as I have always believed that as a scientific person nothing should be rejected until it is given due consideration. In fact if you have ever read the biographies of the most famous scientists in history you would find most all were famous simply because they followed though on a notion which everyone else rejected.
I guess the relevant question here is where do you think we would be if everyone simply dismissed everything they did not understand?.

So basically you seem to be saying that your purpose in this forum is not to help anyone succeed in proving this technology for the benefit of mankind but to criticize them for even trying, does that about cover it?.

AC
-------------------------------
"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

There is infinitely more that we do not know, than we know.
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EMdevices
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« Reply #105 on: 2013-01-19, 20:11:14 »
Here's to"taking pleasure from wishfull thinking"

I wish to build a coil that can develop an open circuit voltage of 2 volts at a distance of 100 meters from a "transmitter" that conducts 100 amps.  I can then tune my coil with a Q = 300, and build the voltage to 600 volts.  Then I will load the coil down and cut the Q in half, thus leaving me with a nice 300 volt low impedance wireless powersupply!
 Afro

EM
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #106 on: 2013-01-20, 16:32:37 »

It's not magic. Just a question of flux crossing and therefore, of coil size. With coils of around 50 mtrs diameter, it will work even better than expected.

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thx1138
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« Reply #107 on: 2014-05-08, 21:33:25 »
Generally speaking, the following video shows how the Hendershot device works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BLXVLDysroY

Taken in light of that video, the magnet/armature/phone ringer coils portion is the energy source and the rest is the amplifier.

The horseshoe magnet supplies the power. The armature oscillates within the Wesley W. Gary "neutral zone" creating a magnetic oscillation in the coil cores which creates a current in the coil wires around those cores. That current feeds the combination capacitor/coil devices which store energy in the large capacitors and oscillates through the transformers to feed the load.

Part of the amplifier portion gives some feedback to the phone ringer coils which keeps the armature oscillating. One of the important aspects of the device is that the transformers are, as shown on the parts list, "vertical oscillator type" which uses an E/I core with a small separation between the E and I parts of the core which affects saturation. Normal power transformers will not work.

There must be a non-linear response somewhere. I suspect it is the combination capacitor/coil devices creating a flux density change in the capacitor portion to create something similar to parametric oscillation but I don't see how this is happening.

Another option might be that it is coupling to the earth's magnetic field but I doubt that just because the energy density in such a small area doesn't seem sufficient to supply the power shown.

I spent 3 months looking at it and was getting down to collecting materials to do a build but got stumped on the magnet. It was said to be a 1950's era radar magnet but there wasn't any more information than that. There were not any size or material specs or field strenghts given. There was a note from one of teh participants back in the day that said the size of diameter of the cap/coil device was related to the face sizes of the magnet but without knowing more about the magnet there isn't any way I know of to calculate what's needed.

In the end, I wasn't willing to spend $500 to light a 100W light bulb - maybe.
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Peterae

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« Reply #108 on: 2014-07-27, 22:01:15 »
I think the main operating principle with the Hendershot device is cutting the earths field East/West creates motion and cutting the earths mag field north/south creates energy, if sense can be made from that then a sound understanding could lead to a working device.

I think this device is early enough and have enough witnesses to be a real device.  Afro
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #109 on: 2014-07-28, 02:54:03 »
I think the main operating principle with the Hendershot device is cutting the earths field East/West creates motion and cutting the earths mag field north/south creates energy, if sense can be made from that then a sound understanding could lead to a working device.

I think this device is early enough and have enough witnesses to be a real device.  Afro

Agreed, this device is one of about five devices that I believe were real.
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EMdevices
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« Reply #110 on: 2014-07-28, 06:47:05 »
Its possible the electric grid modulates the earth's magnetic field, in a particular direction only.   But regardless, we should build a compass and precharge the cores.  Seems like an easier path to take.  In the process, we'll discover how the TPU works.
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giantkiller

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Frequency equals matter...

« Reply #111 on: 2014-07-30, 18:13:32 »
Agreed, this device is one of about five devices that I believe were real.

Not to change the thread but this info fits.
The Hubbard device had many witnesses too in 1920. Lindbergh was making strides in the political arena to promote this after he, with witnesses saw it in operation in 1927. Then his child was kidnapped and killed in 1932.
Bottom of page 9:
http://www.hyiq.org/Downloads/The%20New%20York%20Times%20February%2027,%201928%20and%20The%20New%20York%20Times%20February%2028.pdf

A barrel array of 8 Tesla coils...
Quote
While the device has been patented, the claims for it are so broad that Hubbard says he does not feel safe in making public his secret. In general, he says, it is made up of a group of eight electro-magnets, each with primary and secondary windings of copper wire, which are arranged around a large steel core. The core likewise has a single winding. A coil thus constructed, he says, is lifeless until given an initial impulse. This is done by connecting the ends of its windings for a fraction of a second to an ordinary [two words unreadable R.L.R.] -ing circuit, he says.
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wattsup
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« Reply #112 on: 2014-08-01, 02:42:10 »
@GK

If he hit the coil that is on the iron core with a simple car battery, the core will become an object that holds its own gravity. If by chance copper atoms respond more to gravity then magnetism, then that would make perfect sense. The field is overrated. There is nothing better then proximity so his 6 other coils all around would have a good part of the earth gravity cancelled around the copper wire slit an more freely respond to their primaries. We need to condition the space around a pri/sec, then pulse the primary. But the best will be dual primaries.  Hehehe

Wattsup
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Smudge
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« Reply #113 on: 2014-08-18, 16:26:48 »
Don't know whether this is the right place to post this but I have been looking at the Hendershot motor.  Here is my take on what it consists of and how it might work.  Enjoy!

Smudge
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* hendershot motor.pdf (174.23 KB - downloaded 107 times.)
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #114 on: 2014-08-19, 13:54:58 »
Don't know whether this is the right place to post this but I have been looking at the Hendershot motor.  Here is my take on what it consists of and how it might work.  Enjoy!

Smudge

Smudge thanks for the paper, I read it with interest as it expresses some very novel ideas.

 A couple of questions:

1) Since this is supposedly a self running motor, are the windings on the inner core shorted as in an induction motor in order to develop am opposing field. Your paper does not mention what to do with these windings.

2) The toothed part which is captured below appears to be a solid cast and machined steel part from an alternator of the period. As such the flux lines will flow into the metallic base which is a continuance of the teeth. Today alternator rotors are made from very heavy gauge stamped steel parts (at least in the smaller low end machines as used in cheap automobiles). I cannot speak of larger alternators which may use cast and machined rotors. How would the continuance of flux into the base of the rotor affect the drawings you have presented?

As you can see from the attachment, a modern alternator has like pole faces on each separate toothed part. As you know, this rotor portion has an internal coil and slip rings that is used to energize the field from an external source and regulator. Power output coils are part of the stator magnetic structure which surround the teeth.

Did Hendershot use the alternator part in a novel manner as you seem to suggest or was this part made especially for him with a non magnetic base affixed to the magnetic poles?

Looking forward to more discussion on this subject and the other Hendershot devices, including the one with basket weave coils.

kind regards, ION
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Hendershot Alternator part.jpg
Lester J Hendershot Generator
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modern alternator.jpg
Lester J Hendershot Generator
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Matt Watts
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« Reply #115 on: 2014-08-19, 19:40:37 »
That rotor got my attention too.  I was told, though I do not know firsthand, the design lends itself to anti-cogging at low RPM.  Is it possible this property is somehow being exploited in the Hendershot motor?
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WindBlueRotor.jpg
Lester J Hendershot Generator
* WindBlueRotor.jpg (39.53 KB, 479x369 - viewed 642 times.)
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Smudge
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« Reply #116 on: 2014-08-19, 20:18:53 »
Smudge thanks for the paper, I read it with interest as it expresses some very novel ideas.

 A couple of questions:

1) Since this is supposedly a self running motor, are the windings on the inner core shorted as in an induction motor in order to develop am opposing field. Your paper does not mention what to do with these windings.

Perhaps I didn't make this clear, but the voltage induction into the windings on the donut is fed to the U shaped coils.  This could be each donut section feeding one U coil or all the donut coils in series feeding all the U coils in series.  Either way the induction into the donut coils is by flux cutting and the motor force comes from the poles at each end of the U coils being in the magnetic field from the teeth.

Quote
2) The toothed part which is captured below appears to be a solid cast and machined steel part from an alternator of the period. As such the flux lines will flow into the metallic base which is a continuance of the teeth. Today alternator rotors are made from very heavy gauge stamped steel parts (at least in the smaller low end machines as used in cheap automobiles). I cannot speak of larger alternators which may use cast and machined rotors. How would the continuance of flux into the base of the rotor affect the drawings you have presented?

As you can see from the attachment, a modern alternator has like pole faces on each separate toothed part. As you know, this rotor portion has an internal coil and slip rings that is used to energize the field from an external source and regulator. Power output coils are part of the stator magnetic structure which surround the teeth.

Did Hendershot use the alternator part in a novel manner as you seem to suggest or was this part made especially for him with a non magnetic base affixed to the magnetic poles?

I can't answer your question because I don't have any more information than you do.  My guess is he made a small motor that just turned the prop on a toy aeroplane and that ran on the earth's magnetism.  That external field would provide teeth with the pole polarities shown in your drawing of a modern alternator, but only if aligned with the field and if the teeth and their mounting disc were ferromagnetic, and the rotor shaft were non-ferromagnetic.  And of course the effect would be quite weak.  If Hendershot went on to create more powerful motors then he would have put magnets at each end to get the same poled teeth.  As regards the feasibility of my scheme, I think the ferromagnetic cores in the U coils are necessary in order to get some leverage, i.e. they require less current to get the required pole strength.  If the U coils were air spaced I fear the system could not be OU.

Smudge
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coil connections.JPG
Lester J Hendershot Generator
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added magnets.JPG
Lester J Hendershot Generator
* added magnets.JPG (35.32 KB, 451x375 - viewed 644 times.)
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #117 on: 2014-08-19, 21:27:49 »
That rotor got my attention too.  I was told, though I do not know firsthand, the design lends itself to anti-cogging at low RPM.  Is it possible this property is somehow being exploited in the Hendershot motor?

Hi Matt

I never took one of these apart and noticed if the stator poles were shaped the same or not, which could lessen cogging. An alternator with sufficient cogging could stall a small engine at very low idle and high electrical load, so I guess an anti cog design would be smoother load for the engine at low idle. I would think that back emf or Lenz repulsion would fall off anyway at low rpm's so probably not needed. I'm sure automotive electrical engineers spent a lot of time refining these devices and making them cheap and mass produceable over the years.

I cannot answer your question, but it is possible.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Smudge, thanks for the explanation and extra drawings. I am, however, finding it difficult to visualize exactly how this would work even with fixed permanent magnets. I'm sure the problem is mine, not yours.

Cheers, ION

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EMdevices
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« Reply #118 on: 2015-01-08, 06:08:58 »
I recently reread some of the newspaper articles on Lester Hendershot's fuelless motor, and only going by the descriptions given in these articles I think I may now almost fully understand how it was built and thus how it operates.   

Here's some relevant quotes from this website that lists some of the articles:   http://revolution-green.com/hendershot-fuel-less-generator-fact-fiction/


1) Hendershot’s invention, which he describes as a “magnetic induction” motor, was first announced in March...

2)  Mr. Stout said the model he saw was about the size of the tiny motors used in vacuum cleaners. “I was told that the revolutionary feature was a hereto unknown manner of winding the armature”


3) Why this generator acts as it does, where the energy comes from that transforms it into power, Major Lanphier was not prepared to say beyond quoting Hendershot. It is the inventor’s theory that his machine draws its energy from the earth’s magnetic field. While unwilling to describe it in detail until pending patents have been received, Major Lanphier told a little about it. The first model consisted of a ring magnet less than three inches in diameter. Around the magnet were coils rigged as only Hendershot knows how to rig them, and another set of coils pass through the center of the ring.

4)  Mildly indignant because the manner in which his fuelless motor gains its power had been misrepresented in dispatches from Detroit and Washington, Lester J. Hendershot today stated there was nothing mysterious about his motor, that the force that energizes it is the “same force that pulls the needle of the compass, and there is nothing mysterious about that”.

5)  The main secret of Mr. Hendershot’s invention, his Friend Barr Peat declares, is the method of winding a magnet in the motor so that it will rotate in the opposite direction than the earth revolves. He says there is no heat, because magnetic forces are cold and the motor is stopped only by breaking the magnetic field in the windings. The magnet in the motor, he thinks, probably would have to be recharged after about 2000 hours of operation.


There has been some confusion about what this device is, a motor, or a generator?   I think some of the quotes make it absolutely clear it is primarily a motor that he invented, but it can be a generator as well as Major Lanphier seemed to indicate, and the reconciling idea is that this is an INDUCTION motor that develops a rotating magnetic field inside the ring, just like the TPU!  We can have the stator with the rotating field inside and no rotor to observe motion, so we would call it a generator, but if we put the rotor inside it would then be a motor.

He also precharges (or premagnetizes) the ring core, and wires it as only he knows.  So the principles here appear to be that of a flux valve compass used to sense the magnetic field of the earth, by utilizing saturation of the core in a cyclical manner,  but this is a very wasteful approach due to hysteresis losses, however if the core is premagnetized, then the losses could be greatly minimized if not eliminated, so than it may be possible the earths magnetic field is what is inducing the current in the coils and it is strong enough to begin the spinning of the magnetic field.

Can't wait to start experimenting again!

EM
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Peterae

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« Reply #119 on: 2015-01-08, 20:03:53 »
Grumpy
Quote
In the letter to Hendershot from Geza, he states two profound things:
"From all out work up to the present we have arrived at the following facts:
1. the magnetic field possesses a resonant frequency
2. the field can be put in a state of resonance by utilizing pulsed direct current"

As we know the earths mag field is weak but in NMR thats good as it decreases the NMR frequencies of the sample, infact it looks like the frequency would be around 2kHz, although the field resonance would be weak but so is the earths mag field.

If a low power pulses DC cirrent was made to travel through a sample of iron and aligned with the earthd mag field then it maybe possible to cause field resonance.

Quote
Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) in the geomagnetic field is conventionally referred to as Earth's field NMR (EFNMR). EFNMR is a special case of low field NMR.

When a sample is placed in a constant magnetic field and stimulated (perturbed) by a pulsed or alternating magnetic field, NMR active nuclei resonate at characteristic frequencies. Examples of such nuclei are the isotopes carbon-13, and hydrogen-1 also referred to as protons. The resonant frequency of each isotope is directly proportional to the strength of the applied magnetic field, and the magnetogyric or gyromagnetic ratio of that isotope. The signal strength is proportional both to the stimulating magnetic field and the number of nuclei of that isotope in the sample. Thus in the 21 tesla magnetic field that may be found in high resolution laboratory NMR spectrometers, protons resonate at 900 MHz. However in the Earth's magnetic field the same nuclei resonate at audio frequencies of around 2 kHz and generate very weak signals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_field_NMR
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Grumpy

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tExB=qr

« Reply #120 on: 2015-01-09, 01:19:38 »
Quote
Peter
Quote
Grumpy
In the letter to Hendershot from Geza, he states two profound things:
"From all out work up to the present we have arrived at the following facts:
1. the magnetic field possesses a resonant frequency
2. the field can be put in a state of resonance by utilizing pulsed direct current"

As we know the earths mag field is weak but in NMR thats good as it decreases the NMR frequencies of the sample, infact it looks like the frequency would be around 2kHz, although the field resonance would be weak but so is the earths mag field.

If a low power pulses DC cirrent was made to travel through a sample of iron and aligned with the earthd mag field then it maybe possible to cause field resonance.

Quote
Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) in the geomagnetic field is conventionally referred to as Earth's field NMR (EFNMR). EFNMR is a special case of low field NMR.

When a sample is placed in a constant magnetic field and stimulated (perturbed) by a pulsed or alternating magnetic field, NMR active nuclei resonate at characteristic frequencies. Examples of such nuclei are the isotopes carbon-13, and hydrogen-1 also referred to as protons. The resonant frequency of each isotope is directly proportional to the strength of the applied magnetic field, and the magnetogyric or gyromagnetic ratio of that isotope. The signal strength is proportional both to the stimulating magnetic field and the number of nuclei of that isotope in the sample. Thus in the 21 tesla magnetic field that may be found in high resolution laboratory NMR spectrometers, protons resonate at 900 MHz. However in the Earth's magnetic field the same nuclei resonate at audio frequencies of around 2 kHz and generate very weak signals.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth%27s_field_NMR

I think Gaza was referring to the appearance of a large increase in magnetic field strength when HV DC pulses are applied near a magnet, and that this has a pulse frequency at which the field is extremely strong.  Thus, you can create a device that utilizes this increased magnetic field for motive or inductive purposes. 

Hendershot used a simple device to toggle between two large coils to provide the switched HV, and he had two coil assemblies, producing an AC output.

Do you have a HV DC supply?
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JimBoot

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« Reply #121 on: 2015-01-30, 12:33:50 »
Just in case you haven't seen it yet. Akula meets Hendershot http://youtu.be/sPAz8aR1Ylg
Last Edit: 2015-01-31, 08:58:16 by JimBoot
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verpies

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« Reply #122 on: 2015-01-30, 13:24:34 »
Does that mean that Akula has abandoned his own original inventions in favor of the good old and tried dusted-off technology of Hendersot ?  Shocked
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Grumage

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« Reply #123 on: 2015-01-30, 13:57:27 »
Does that mean that Akula has abandoned his own original inventions in favor of the good old and tried dusted-off technology of Hendersot ?  Shocked

Dear Verpies.

Off topic, most definitely, it seems Roman ( Akula ) has taken T-1000's saying of " There are many roads to Rome " very seriously !!   Smiley          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYjREkw1v-A

BITT ??

Cheers Grum.
Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 14:50:39 by Grumage
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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! Smiley
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Matt Watts
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« Reply #124 on: 2015-01-31, 00:26:42 »
it seems Roman ( Akula ) has taken T-1000's saying of " There are many roads to Rome " very seriously !!   Smiley

He either has a very special eye to these devices or is sitting atop a nuclear waste facility.  Seems everything he touches runs by itself.
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