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Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 49557 times) Print
EMdevices
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« Reply #25 on: 2013-01-05, 21:32:35 »
Absolutely, that coil has higher capacitance so it oscilates at lower frequency, just like he wanted to avoid radiation losses as much as possible.  Tesla was very cutting edge in this line of work.
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Allcanadian
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« Reply #26 on: 2013-01-05, 22:20:22 »
@Em
I know some people like to criticize Tesla and all that kind of nonsense but I think he was a great inventor and he had some very creative idea's. That creativity is why I find his work so interesting and not so much breaking the laws of physics as some might suggest. I never understood that, I bring up Tesla and one of his creative views on a subject and all of a sudden people starts ranting on about OU and the laws of physics.
He was an inventor, a very good one and he made some great contributions to science.

I built many of these coils to spec and the biggest issue I found is that they cannot be operated as a standard coil or it will act just like a normal coil. It has the property of capacitance so it is this quality that should be accentuated. A capacitor stores more energy at higher voltages so we should use higher voltages. As well we should use extremely fast rise and fall times or a rate of change so that the load attached to the coil resists these changes. Output current flow should be impeded so the voltage rise is forced into the capacitance of the coil otherwise we may as well just use an ordinary coil.
No laws broken, no mysteries or magic, just simple physics nothing more.

AC
-------------------------------
"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact."--Mark Twain

"For a person who lives 100 years in the future, the present comes as no surprise."
Victor Schauberger
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muDped

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« Reply #27 on: 2013-01-06, 00:05:18 »
Quote from: AllCanacian
I bring up Tesla and one of his creative views on
a subject and all of a sudden people starts ranting
on about OU and the laws of physics.

Aye, Tesla's good name has been exploited in
commerce by merchants striving to capitalize
for monetary gain.  The legacy of Tesla himself
has been Trance-Formed into a cult following
which has made him into something other than
what he really was or really stood for.

The Laws of Physics can/will never be broken.

Our pitiful understanding of those laws is
at all times subject to change...
-------------------------------
The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.

H. L. Mencken
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giantkiller

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Frequency equals matter...

« Reply #28 on: 2013-01-06, 05:03:12 »
Quote
The Laws of Physics can/will never be broken.

As Rod Serling would say 'I submit for your approval'. What if our scope or reality is merely a bug splat on the windshield of a much larger view?

Some contend that the veldt that encompasses us is not really matter at all but pure figment. There fore we make or uphold the limits. Boundaries are made to be broken only by those willing to get bruised.
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #29 on: 2013-01-06, 10:45:13 »
EX, so if there is no resonance, he is just using it as a transformer, except of course it operates at higher frequency than 50 Hz?
...

Exactly.

Quote
Oh well  If there's no resonance it's boring.  

It's not boring if nevertheless it provided extra-energy! And that's the question.

It's the opportunity to recall that unlike "abracadabra", "resonance" is not a magic formula that would be the only condition to get extra-energy. It's only an accumulation of energy introduced step by step, at each period, and going back and forth between two places where it is temporarily stored, for instance in the magnetic field of a coil and the electric field of a capacitor. Even if the gegene had resonance, which is not the case, considering the considerable load of the lamps that would totally reduce the Q factor, the effect would be weak and probably not even noticeable.

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exnihiloest
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« Reply #30 on: 2013-01-06, 11:34:10 »
Quote
The Laws of Physics can/will never be broken.
1) it is obvious that the Laws of Physics can/will never be broken, because if they were broken, this would mean that they were not the laws of physics!  Roll Eyes
2) so I suppose you meant:
Quote
The known Laws of Physics can/will never be broken.

The scientists don't say this, because they are the firsts to broke the known laws of physics that they previously discovered themselves, the best examples being the general relativity proving that the Newton mechanics was formally false or the quantum mechanics showing that either the principle of locality or of reality should be abandonned. Nevertheless it doesn't mean that the current known laws are false, but that they are incomplete (for instance the Newton mechanics can be still used instead of GR, only its domain of validity has to be reduced).

Quote
As Rod Serling would say 'I submit for your approval'. What if our scope or reality is merely a bug splat on the windshield of a much larger view?

Some contend that the veldt that encompasses us is not really matter at all but pure figment. There fore we make or uphold the limits. Boundaries are made to be broken only by those willing to get bruised.

It would be a good idea that the smooth talkers show us something real instead of endlessly arguing.

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exnihiloest
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« Reply #31 on: 2013-01-06, 12:17:25 »
@Em
I know some people like to criticize Tesla and all that kind of nonsense but I think he was a great inventor and he had some very creative idea's.
...

Nobody doubts that Tesla was a great inventor. A great inventor is a human and even a great inventor can be sometimes wrong, but the problem is not even there.
The duty of his followers is to use his ideas and inventions with discernment, not to spread bullshit coming from their misunderstanding of his work, invoking his patents as disciples of Mohammed invoking the Quran.

Remember that Tesla was an electrical and mechanical engineer, not an ignorant playing in his garage with gears or transformers. Those who have not the engineer's background of Tesla and don't even want to acquire it under the pretext it's conventional knowledge, can't understand his work and like religious believers facing the mysteries of a world that they don't understand, they take him for a God and his patents for sacred texts. The less you know, the more you imagine, and this led to transform the Tesla's technological work into childish fairies.

Some years ago, a humorous cartoon appeared in a satirical journal. We saw Allah encircled by fervent believers invoking the jihad, and the following words were placed in his mouth: "it's hard to be loved by cunts"  Grin. In our context where the jihad is to fight the alleged big conspiracy of the academic science, I'm afraid that the same message is often relevant by replacing Allah by Tesla.

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Allcanadian
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« Reply #32 on: 2013-01-06, 19:44:56 »
@Exn
Quote
Nevertheless it doesn't mean that the current known laws are false, but that they are incomplete (for instance the Newton mechanics can be still used instead of GR, only its domain of validity has to be reduced).

I would agree, there is also the issue of interpretation as we may have a known law however many may not agree on exactly how, when or where it applies. The homopolar generator is a good example and we could have 100 engineers and scientists in a room and almost none would agree on the exact mechanisms taking place, where they take place and when. This does not mean any laws have to be broken or that new one's need to be invented, it simply means we cannot agree on exactly how the laws we have apply.

Quote
Remember that Tesla was an electrical and mechanical engineer, not an ignorant playing in his garage with gears or transformers. Those who have not the engineer's background of Tesla and don't even want to acquire it under the pretext it's conventional knowledge, can't understand his work and like religious believers facing the mysteries of a world that they don't understand, they take him for a God and his patents for sacred texts.

I understand your point however we should also understand that Tesla was once an ignorant playing in his garage as were you and myself. If I could travel back in time to when you were 16 should I call you an ignorant?, should I say you are stupid and misguided and have no idea what you are talking about?. We should remember that we all have different levels of education, levels of knowledge and resources at our disposal. To say one person is ignorant does not imply this must always be the case as life is a learning experience and we are always gaining knowledge on different levels.

AC
-------------------------------
"There is something fascinating about science. One gets such wholesale returns of conjecture out of such a trifling investment of fact."--Mark Twain

"For a person who lives 100 years in the future, the present comes as no surprise."
Victor Schauberger
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #33 on: 2013-01-10, 09:54:13 »

In a new test http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/gegene13en.htm, JL Naudin tries to loop the gegene. He took the rather surprising option to do it with a GTI, i.e. to convert the AC Khz output into CC, CC to 50Hz, and 50Hz back to the input.
He failed and the alleged reason is an insufficient power of his GTI.

We must reckon that the output signal is a carrier frequency of about 20 Khz, amplitude modulated by the mains frequency (50 Hz in France). It's identical to an AM radio signal. A simple diode or a diodes bridge followed by a low pass filter would be enough to rebuild the 50Hz signal that has to be fed back to the input.
A resonant 50Hz LC filter instead of the low pass filter would be better because when looped, it would be a means to fix the frequency which is no more imposed by the grid.

I wonder why he choose a complicated and inefficient method instead of this one. I will not try to duplicate his setup for two reasons: the lamp brightness is indicating much less power than alleged, and people more skilled in electronics than him failed (see here, in French). Nevertheless the believers should try this method rather than the Naudin's method.

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Centraflow

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« Reply #34 on: 2013-01-10, 15:51:47 »
Well the GTI is well under powered @ 500watts. I will have to look at the video again but I seem to remember that the power input from the grid did go down by the inverter input.

All this apart the Tesla coil does show interesting results in an item of some work I have done a while back, It seems that it has a great ability to pass higher current at HF, this maybe the inherant capacitance built into it!

I agree on the low pass filter

Mike Cool
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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."

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Centraflow

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« Reply #35 on: 2013-01-10, 19:22:57 »
It has been pointed out to me that the Tesla coil is a "parallel" LCR which gives current spikes as opposed to voltage spikes in a series circuit, now this would be best if there was some sort of resonance reached. Is this possible when connected to resistive loads?

Mike Cool
-------------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."

Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #36 on: 2013-01-25, 13:37:15 »
@ExnHow do we know the Gegene is not a parametric device if the device's operation is in question?

From the knowledge of the common materials that are used.

Quote
If it is an ordinary coil then why is it not wound like one, why was Tesla granted a patent which must be new or unique in some way if it is ordinary?

A coil is an inductance. Whatever the kind of winding, an inductance remains an inductance from an electric viewpoint, the winding being circular, square or anything else.
But a coil is not an ideal inductance. There are also a series resistance, a parallel resistance, and a parallel capacitance. A double wire Tesla coil is simply a winding that increases the parallel capacitance.

Quote
Obviously we have a discrepancy...

Obviously we face a guy who pretends that his device outputs twice the input power, while the apparent output power from the lamp brightness doesn't fit the alleged output power, while nodody else than him is able to duplicate the alleged effect, while he is unable to loop the device in spite a tremendous COP and while he doesn't even try to do it, conscious that the problem lies in its measurement but avoiding any experiment to show it, to not disappoint himself.

The most ridiculous is that he is now using the gegene to produce HHO when he is supposed to have a free electricity generator much more useful than any gas!  Roll Eyes

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exnihiloest
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« Reply #37 on: 2013-01-25, 14:07:11 »
It has been pointed out to me that the Tesla coil is a "parallel" LCR which gives current spikes as opposed to voltage spikes in a series circuit, now this would be best if there was some sort of resonance reached. Is this possible when connected to resistive loads?

Mike Cool

The more a LCR circuit is loaded, the less the resonance effect, question of decreasing Q factor.
There is no significant resonance in the gegene for at least two reasons: resonance frequency (estimated from the setup) much higher than the working frequency and  harmonics, and a high load implying a collapse of the Q factor.

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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #38 on: 2013-01-25, 16:01:36 »
Fron Ex:

Ob
Quote
viously we face a guy who pretends that his device outputs twice the input power, while the apparent output power from the lamp brightness doesn't fit the alleged output power, while nobody else than him is able to duplicate the alleged effect, while he is unable to loop the device in spite a tremendous COP and while he doesn't even try to do it, conscious that the problem lies in its measurement but avoiding any experiment to show it, to not disappoint himself.

I agree completely. Looping such a device would be extremely easy. People distract themselves from this to avoid reality and obfuscate an easily revealed truth.

He could simply bridge rectify the output of his pickup coil (using Schottky or fast recovery diodes) and feed the DC directly into the power supply of the unit, post the device's internal bridge rectifier. In this way, the loop need not be interrupted and mains power input can be switched off or slowly reduced to zero.
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Armagdn03
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« Reply #39 on: 2013-01-26, 00:05:43 »
We had a discussion on this over at EnergeticForum, I will recap, as what has been said here is not 100%.

Quote (wrtner):

Quote
The pancake circuit, the secondary, will have some L, C, and R,
along with an output load. Presumably, the driving frequency will
be that of the cooker and the values of circuit elements will need
to be such as to resonate with it.

Reply (Armagdn03):

Quote
That is a good start on understanding the topic, however its not quite so straight forward. This receiving coil does not act only like a lumped element tank circuit, rather it has multiple resonance modes, some of which act like a parallel, some of which act like a series tank, much more similar to transmission line theory than lumped element. It would be smart to first define the operational modes of the receiving coil, then build ones to match the modes to the driving elements, each will probably give very different results.

Quote (Gylua)

Quote
I would like to make an addition to the excellent Reply #31 above from Armagdn03.
Here is a link that shows a (multi) resonant tank circuit Bootstrap coax traps for antennas and it is actually a certain length of coaxial cable wound as a normal solenoid to make a single layer (cylindrical) coil and the inner conductor of this coax cable is connected in series with the outer conductor (shield or braid) of the same coax cable, exactly like it is connected for Tesla's bifilar pancake coils: ( http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/coaxtrap02.gif )
And the reason I mention this is that you can see how the impedance of this "coax coil" (connected as described) depends on the frequency, see this direct link: http://vk1od.net/antenna/coaxtrap/coaxtrap10.png where the peaks represent parallel (LC) resonances (i.e. high impedances) and the valleys represent series (LC) resonances (i.e. low impedances), so if you make a Tesla bifilar pancake coil you would surely experience similar impedance curves in the function of frequencies. For such cylindrical coaxial traps shown in the link there exists a computer program to calculate the needed resonant frequencies for the MHz ranges where radio amateurs mainly build antennas for the short wave bands. That computer program has a certain mechanical and electrical data base of known types of coax cables. If someone is interested in that software, it is free here www.qsl.net/ve6yp/coaxtrap.zip from this link http://www.qsl.net/ve6yp/CoaxTrap.html

There is not only a resonant mode of maximum impedance, but also one of minimum (and multiples), hence the patent saying that the capacity can neutralize the self induction, thereby reducing impedance that a coil would normally have. Keep in mind that these are much closer to transmission line and waveguide theory than lumped element.
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #40 on: 2013-01-26, 11:35:13 »
...
There is not only a resonant mode of maximum impedance, but also one of minimum (and multiples), hence the patent saying that the capacity can neutralize the self induction, thereby reducing impedance that a coil would normally have. Keep in mind that these are much closer to transmission line and waveguide theory than lumped element.

The measurement don't show any overvoltage. Neither the frequencies nor the circuit are adjusted for any resonance. "Transmission lines" are concepts that have a sense only when the wavelength of the signals are shorter than the line, what is not the case here even for the 30th harmonic! And the high load is incompatible with a possible resonance.
So what are the facts sustaining the alleged resonance? Obviously none.

The two coils constitute a simple transformer.

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exnihiloest
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« Reply #41 on: 2013-01-26, 11:47:50 »
...
He could simply bridge rectify the output of his pickup coil (using Schottky or fast recovery diodes) and feed the DC directly into the power supply of the unit, post the device's internal bridge rectifier. In this way, the loop need not be interrupted and mains power input can be switched off or slowly reduced to zero.

In fact the IGBT are powered by rectified AC not by DC (I mean a not constant voltage but variable around a positive value). However the principle that you present works: the diode bridge must be simply followed by a low pass filter that removes the 20 Khz signal but keeps the 50 Hz envelope modulation (same role as a diode in an AM radio receiver, followed by a RC circuit feeding the audio amp).
It's so easy that it's unbelievable that JL Naudin didn't thought it, so it's his volontary choice to not do it, presumably for the above mentioned reasons.

Last Edit: 2013-01-26, 14:04:42 by exnihiloest
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #42 on: 2013-01-26, 17:52:24 »
In fact the IGBT are powered by rectified AC not by DC (I mean a not constant voltage but variable around a positive value). However the principle that you present works: the diode bridge must be simply followed by a low pass filter that removes the 20 Khz signal but keeps the 50 Hz envelope modulation (same role as a diode in an AM radio receiver, followed by a RC circuit feeding the audio amp).
It's so easy that it's unbelievable that JL Naudin didn't thought it, so it's his voluntary choice to not do it, presumably for the above mentioned reasons.

Yes Ex, perhaps I should have said "pulsating DC". The low pass filter is also a good idea and rather easy to implement.  Does anyone have or can point to a schematic for one of these devices? I would be interested to know exactly how they handle the mains input.
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muDped

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« Reply #43 on: 2013-01-26, 20:24:47 »
Here's a start.

Follow the links which will lead to other
links.  Really good info.

I like this schematic best.  The simplicity of
low side switching has numerous advantages.

Last Edit: 2013-01-26, 21:04:12 by Dumped
-------------------------------
The most dangerous man to any government is the man who is able to think things out... without regard to the prevailing superstitions and taboos. Almost inevitably he comes to the conclusion that the government he lives under is dishonest, insane, intolerable.

H. L. Mencken
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exnihiloest
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« Reply #44 on: 2013-01-26, 21:57:29 »
...
Does anyone have or can point to a schematic for one of these devices? I would be interested to know exactly how they handle the mains input.

Here is the principle :


The role of the capacitor C is not to filter the mains frequency. At the C terminals, there is a double-rectified voltage only a bit smoothed by the capacitance that presents a rather high impedance at the mains frequency. But at the switching frequency C presents a low impedance, in order to provide a high current for the IGBTs.

-------------------------------
InducHeatSchem.jpg
Naudin's Gegene
* InducHeatSchem.jpg (44.75 KB, 848x470 - viewed 2300 times.)
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EMdevices
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« Reply #45 on: 2013-01-26, 22:34:26 »
I like Dumped schematic better, but regardless, Naudin is making a very interesting claim.  

I think there is a mathematical principle here with any feedback system.    You take a fraction of the output power and feed it back to the input.  Thus, you've lowered the input requirement.  Easy!  But remember, not all the input power goes to a load, just loops around back to the input, so it is deceiving.  In fact, if he turns off the lights,  he can have maybe 99% of the power input to the cooker be recycled and only 1% coming in from the grid to offset losses.   Do you see what I'm saying.  Looping the power back like that proves nothing, it is just an extra unnecessary complication!  So I must conclude that it is not over unity, because of the power meters, therefore, we must now ascertain how much the load is consuming. And measuring the power pulses is hard and inaccurate, but I'll give it a try.


edit:   I added the second picture from Naudin, where he shows the power measured.  Well judging from the current and voltage waveform he shows on his website, they are not perfect sinusoids, one side seems clipped, and as we know,  the average power in a sinusoidal waveform feeding a resistive load is 1/2 V I, where V and I are the amplitude values, and he did not take this into account for this graph, so there is 1/2 penalty there that we need to correct,  then because the waveform amplitude is modulated by 50 Hz, that's another 1/2 we need to take off, so his time averaged power is closer to 1000 watts not 4000 watts peak, however, because the waveforms are clipped on one side as I mentioned, I would take off another 30%,  so that puts us at around 700 watts, which is what the input is from the grid.

So no extra power, just a show for the naive.

EM

PS,  I added the third image to bring the point home about recycling the power and why higher power to the cooker, while lower power is input from the grid, is really not anything special at all and certainly does not mean overunity operation.
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GegeneInjectP2.jpg
Naudin's Gegene
* GegeneInjectP2.jpg (137.34 KB, 1171x678 - viewed 592 times.)
naudin_Gegene_powercalc.jpg
Naudin's Gegene
* naudin_Gegene_powercalc.jpg (187.88 KB, 847x572 - viewed 559 times.)
power_recycling.jpg
Naudin's Gegene
* power_recycling.jpg (40.51 KB, 516x513 - viewed 554 times.)
Last Edit: 2013-01-27, 02:37:57 by EMdevices
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ION
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« Reply #46 on: 2013-01-26, 22:52:58 »
Thanks Dumped and Exn, it was a good read.
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EMdevices
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« Reply #47 on: 2013-01-27, 00:01:49 »
@EX
Quote
The role of the capacitor C is not to filter the mains frequency. At the C terminals, there is a double-rectified voltage only a bit smoothed by the capacitance that presents a rather high impedance at the mains frequency. But at the switching frequency C presents a low impedance, in order to provide a high current for the IGBTs.

yes, that's correct,  in fact, all these extra components like the harmonic filter, capacitor C, choke, cap Ck, are there to keep the high frequency from leaking back into the power grid.  If C was intended to smooth the 50 Hz waveform it's doing a poor job judging from Naudin's waveform.  Maybe if there is no load on the cooker then perhaps it's smoothing the 50 Hz.

Now, why is there a resistor R on the 220 V input?   Is it to fix the power factor so the electric company does not get cheated out of some profits? Just remove it!   Evil  


PS.  Do you guys remember that dude that was on overunity.com, and was doing pretty much the same thing.  He had some company that was making these electronic switching boxes right on the main line voltage, and was cheating the power meters.  remember him?
Last Edit: 2013-01-27, 02:49:52 by EMdevices
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WaveWatcher

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« Reply #48 on: 2013-01-27, 05:13:50 »
Now, why is there a resistor R on the 220 V input?   Is it to fix the power factor so the electric company does not get cheated out of some profits? Just remove it!   Evil  

'R' may or may not be required, depending upon the rest of the circuit. It would have little, if any, effect upon the power factor. If the possibility comes up, please don't remove it. Since the cooker runs off of higher frequency pulses generated from the DC bus the system power factor will be near unity.

The resistor is there to help with filtering garbage generated by the cooker before it goes out the power line.
-------------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein

"What we observe is not nature itself, but nature exposed to our method of questioning." - Werner Heisenberg
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #49 on: 2013-01-27, 05:28:32 »
In systems that do not have a large DC smoothing capacitor and are modulated by the line instantaneous voltage, power factor is much less an issue.

I suspect the resistor is more to quickly discharge Cx to prevent a possible shock hazard if the plug is accidentally touched after unplugging, in which case Cx could be momentarily charged to the peak of the AC waveform.

EM said:
Quote
Looping the power back like that proves nothing, it is just an extra unnecessary complication!

Perhaps true in Naudin's arrangement, however Ex and I were talking looping for a different reason i.e:

Looping proves everything if the system can still run with even a small load once disconnected from the mains. This would be far more convincing than possible faulty measurement.
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