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 Author Topic: Lets start the new year with a bang!  (Read 46495 times)
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #1 on: 2014-01-01, 07:17:16 » Hero Member Posts: 1150 Happy New Year guys, lets achieve great things this year!
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #2 on: 2014-01-01, 17:26:01 » Hero Member Posts: 1740 Happy New Year dear Duncan.Thank you for sharing your "Pet" with us.Do you see any problem with the attached sketch? Apart from the fact it wasn't drawn on a Christmas card. !!  This idea for construction could greatly simplify a build !!Cheers Graham. ------------------------ Lets start the new year with a bang!  photo.JPG (1389.82 kB, 2592x1936 - viewed 1727 times.) --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #3 on: 2014-01-01, 18:38:19 » Hero Member Posts: 1740 Dear All.This post on OU.Com may also be significant !! Then follow on. Using a pair of Ferrite "U" cores.http://www.overunity.com/6763/energy-amplification/msg381170/#msg381170Cheers Graham. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #4 on: 2014-01-01, 19:03:15 » Full Member Posts: 168 Thanks Duncan!   One question on the last page - you have a link to a flip flop oscillator driver.   However it seems to point to a high efficiency inverter circuit.   Am I missing something there or is that a wrong link?   BTW what do you think it would take in terms of money to buy the core material you need for the TPU?
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #5 on: 2014-01-01, 19:39:58 » Hero Member Posts: 1333 Frequency equals matter... Air gaps between the magnets are essential. The gap size depends on the gauss strength. If the loop is continuous you need more power or higher frequency as in mega,giga,terra hz to make an effect. The best way is to lower the FE content and make a weak field gap by using a cabinet magnet.Because with a solid magnetic race track that goes in only one direction you will have trouble controlling the flux flow. The bucking areas that repel will be quite strong and difficult to manipulate. ------------------------ Lets start the new year with a bang!  IMAG0997.jpg (344.35 kB, 2048x1216 - viewed 1608 times.) --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #6 on: 2014-01-01, 19:57:59 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 ok  the reason for the toroid is it has the least flux leakage of any magnetic circuit bar none . putting a magnetic circuit at 90 deg as you consider is the very least efficient magnetic circuit known, Its akin to a hose pipe with a kink in it.the for small air gaps are essential to force magnetic pole change which in turn allows you to split EMF and back EMF and use both forces to the good   sorry if I sound a little curt just a bit tired  « Last Edit: 2014-01-01, 20:45:51 by Duncan » --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #7 on: 2014-01-01, 20:55:30 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 Quote from: e2matrix on 2014-01-01, 19:03:15Thanks Duncan!   One question on the last page - you have a link to a flip flop oscillator driver.   However it seems to point to a high efficiency inverter circuit.   Am I missing something there or is that a wrong link?   BTW what do you think it would take in terms of money to buy the core material you need for the TPU?   No your on the right page . and the right circuit . that circuit essentially sends current first one way then the other through the transformer , it is only the chip section I used and instead of switching transistors and the transformer just connected it straight to the H bridge to switch it first one way then the other --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #8 on: 2014-01-01, 22:39:56 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 Graham U cores is a fair option ... that's next best to the toroid four of them, I considered two links of an Iron chain each cut in half,( anchor chain used to be made of pure Iron) to combat the rust problems but I didn't find any suitable  --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #9 on: 2014-01-02, 04:57:28 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 Quote from: giantkiller on 2014-01-01, 19:39:58Air gaps between the magnets are essential. The gap size depends on the gauss strength. If the loop is continuous you need more power or higher frequency as in mega,giga,terra hz to make an effect. The best way is to lower the FE content and make a weak field gap by using a cabinet magnet.Because with a solid magnetic race track that goes in only one direction you will have trouble controlling the flux flow. The bucking areas that repel will be quite strong and difficult to manipulate.Oh .. please don' t think  I chide you, not so .. I want you to clearly understand .. Its far far simpler than gauss and the like … so don't worry your pretty heads so!We could form a small chain of nails and paper clips as shown below: You really don't need to make things complicated ! Do you think a fool such as myself could possibly work it out if it was complicated ?  And luckily 'What one fool can do, another can (ancient simian proverb) quoted by Silvanus P Thomson another FE researcher of note!Silvanus PThompsonThis is so easy you rush by but don't see . You see the Bar magnet holding Iron nails ? If you very gently removed the bar magnet from the top nail why all of the nails would Immediately separate and fall to the floor …. that’s because Iron is a 'Soft magnetic material' this is what our four separate  cores are made of .  Soft magnetic material . The other end of the magnet is Holding paper clips , They are not made of Iron they are made of mild steel  MS is a 'different kettle of fish' if you carefully remove the magnet all the paper clips will remain stuck together, they will remain magnetised because Mild steel is a very hard magnetic material . Exactly what we do not want .  Now so you under stand a little better what is occurring picture the particular Iron nail the arrow is pointing at to be one of the four electromagnets I have drawn , (in fact one of the electromagnets supplying the load) what would happen to the poles of that Iron nail if the one above it and the one below it reversed polarity ? Why it would have to instantly reverse poles itself.Now to take your Imagination just one step further I'm sure most have an Idea how a transformer works ,, or rather how we are taught it works … now imagine that nail to be the secondary core of a transformer . With windings on it . Each time the flux changes direction .. why It induces a voltage and the formula for the voltage produced is$emf,\;e\;=\;-T\frac{d\phi }{dt}$                                                                  .. where T is the number of turns                                                                                dΦ is the changing magnetic flux                                                                                  dt is the time it changes inFor those who hate to tangle with calculus in any shape or form this is the poor mans version ..E = Turns x (Φ1-Φ2)      its quite sufficient where Φ1 and Φ2 are the minimum and maximum flux                     (t1 – t2)             whilst t1 and t2 are the times of each cycle should you want to 'bone up' on any of this transformer theory you can fill ya boots here  http://www.electrical4u.com/emf-equation-of-transformer-turns-voltage-transformation-ratio-of-transformer/  So now do you grasp how simple it really is ? There is no need to get complex .. there is nothing complex or complicated happening here and never will be .. Its just very simple basic electrical engineering all the way through .. you can 'most of you' no doubt do it all faster and much better than I , Its just you have rushed by whilst I being more stupid have had to look carefully under every bush.Now perhaps you also see why Steve Mark was so busily engaged in working out turns ratio's It is essentially a transformer action.. although much faster than you would normally be used to . Which is why as I say I  am struggling to find suitable core material.  I hope that clears things a little bit for you all.   « Last Edit: 2014-01-02, 05:33:07 by Duncan » --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #10 on: 2014-01-02, 06:22:05 » Full Member Posts: 168 Duncan,  Thanks for clarifying the flip flop question.  Would I be correct in assuming you seek something like Metglas or Iron with a very high content of Iron like hydrogen annealed iron which is 99.95% plus iron for a core?
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #11 on: 2014-01-02, 08:01:39 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 wow you sound much more clued up on the subject of magnetic materials than me e2matrix . I can see how he's done it but the engineering of magnetic circuits is a dim area for me.He says himself that he was operating at about 8 Khz and I see no reason to doubt it , Its the centre of a speakers frequency range after all . Its what he would have 'borrowed' In fact In one of the video's Its clearly stated that's where the cores came from .. I'm kinda hoping some one with a bit more nous in the magnetic area (and it might by you) can pick up the magnetic issue .. Its obvious that there is stuff that can do it .. that's how every loudspeaker works , some converting hundreds and hundreds of watts at many KHz with an electromagnet I did phone up a speaker company here in the UK but the man started talking numbers with lots of zero's.I do have some pretty pure Iron I have bought from this company  http://www.leggbrothers.co.uk/which they proclaim to be very pure .. I bought 2M of 20mm round bar , but I don't have the means to bend it  so I now await a blacksmith to sober up after Christmas and even then he says a circle is beyond him and I'm going to have to try with four U shaped things .. Its all very frustrating Its obvious whats actually needed and how its done and put together but then the fates seem to want to trip you at every turn I'm not even sure if pure Iron will suffice but in the absence of what I really need .. of course I have to try it. --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #12 on: 2014-01-02, 16:59:21 » Full Member Posts: 168 Well no not an expert by a long shot.   I just know Don Smith used Metglas in at least one of his projects.   I've looked into permeability before for some other projects a bit and I assume it is permeability that we may be interested in.  See this chart on Wiki:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permeability_(electromagnetism) about half way down the page and you'll see it is interesting that 99.8% pure Iron has only a permeability of 5000µ whereas 99.95% pure iron has a µ of 200000.    The company you posted where you got your iron says they get 99.85% pure so you'll probably be coming in somewhere closer to 5000µ than 200000µ.    Metglas is quite expensive although once in a while I've seen some on eBay.   I think something like 6 inch diameter toroids were coming in around $150 to$200 or so.   I've seen it in toroid shapes but it's more often in U shapes with fairly squared off corners.   Seems like there has to be a good reasonable source from somewhere.   I wonder if some very big old speakers might have what you need.   And just thinking out loud here.   Maybe it would be easier to find a big chunk of flat round or square pure iron that is about an inch thick and then you could drill out the middle.   If it's square band saw off the corners to where they are round.   Drill enough small holes in the middle to get one big hole and then grind until smooth.   On the other hand I guess you actually want to end up with four 1/4 rounds don't you?   That being the case there has to be someone that can bend that bar for you.   I'm thinking ship builders.   I think you already mentioned chain.   Someone that makes large ship boat chain would certainly have a machine to bend large iron rod if they didn't already have some the right size.   You just need to cut it into quarters anyway.    Okay rambling done ....
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #13 on: 2014-01-02, 17:26:40 » Hero Member Posts: 1740 Dear All.I have been giving this thread a deal of thought and being the Newbie I might as well take the flack for my following remark!!  A loudspeaker as far as I am aware has a powerful doughnut shaped permanent magnet. This magnet also has a linked soft iron inner core that the speaker coil runs in between of. There lies the crux !! An alternating current applied to the coil causes the cone to vibrate in, as Duncan rightly suggests a linear wave.So what I am trying to say is that the speakers magnetic material would not be suitable for this application because it would become a permanent magnet !! A loudspeaker's magnet doesn't change strength whilst in use does it ??My neck is on the block !!  Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #14 on: 2014-01-03, 00:55:37 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 oh grumage that's not thinking like an engineer is it? 1000 watts goes in (say) and moves the cone accordingly it is of course physically moving the cone back and forth that consumes 1000W . it can't be a PM magnet can it ? indeed here's an animation . http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/speaker6.htmThe material the core of what is called 'the voice coil' is what Steve Mark used ... that coil is taking all the input power ,changing it to lateral movement and physically moving that cone very fast back and forth.  the big PM magnet your thinking of is effectively a counter balance .. I'm not interested in that at all . it is the substance that the voice coil is wound on probably a sintered material of some sort  .. Steve Mark .. had access to it , it has every quality needed here ... light weight, very soft magnetically, capable of handling huge power. capable of being' formed ' obviously for different speakers . actually absolutely the reverse of what you say Grumage the stuff has no magnetic retention at all the speaker cone always returns to the centre position . pressed into the right shape it has every requirement I need , so I know what it does, I know how it does it , I know its frequency response , I know its power handling, I know its Retentivity  I can even work out its B/H curve . That's not guess work or thinking about it ... that's just simple pure engineering every step of the way .... I've never seen the stuff, and I cant remember the last time I ever butchered a Loudspeaker ... but that 'stuff' has all the qualities required to make the Christmas card jump about! perhaps I cant get my hands on it, but someone out in forum land can and will I'm sure. I didn't put the post up for me ultimately anyway I posted all the engineering and the principles of every step and that sir is very unusual (as you know) from here anyone at all has as much chance of building ,proving ,demonstrating  the thing as I do. I'm quite sure the principles, technology and logic /detective work are right .... who's got the exotic magnetics is the question still your 'thinking on' and that's super Grumage  --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #15 on: 2014-01-03, 01:43:35 » Group: Elite Hero Member Posts: 3068 It's turtles all the way down google "voice coil formers" --------------------------- Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #16 on: 2014-01-03, 02:57:25 » Full Member Posts: 168 I'm having a hard time understanding what I just found.   I was digging around for 'speaker voice coil material' and I keep seeing Titanium being sold for speaker voice coil making.   Titanium is completely non-magnetic so I don't know what I've found but it's not making sense at first look.   At least titanium does not attract to even strong neo magnets so I may be wrong but I didn't think it would work as a voice coil material.   Adding this info I just found on voice coils:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_coil
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #17 on: 2014-01-03, 09:35:25 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 Now that's all interesting stuff .. I haven't got my head around the dynamics of it yet ... the Penny will no doubt drop  .. in fact It has whilst I'm writing .. so just thinking allowed here ... that thin material , with the coil wound on it . ... projects virtually all of its magnetism laterally (obviously) the toroid permanent magnet counter balances the "pull of the cone" sooooo the cone is in the neutral position (effectively) then a big BINGO it explains how Steve Mark could cut straight through the toroid !!!! its physically flimsy for all its brilliant magnetic properties and huge power handling  ... yeah thats the stuff .. me thinks, thats what was all around the inside of what looked like a hollow toroid he cut in half I dont have the video to check .. but pound to a pinch   wonder if we can get BH curves and wot not  --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #18 on: 2014-01-03, 13:21:39 » Hero Member Posts: 1740 Dear Duncan.I would first like to thank you for using one of the sharper axes from the armoury !!  I was totally unaware the loudspeaker drive coil formers were made of exotic materials !! Most of the ones I took apart in my youth were just plain old cardboard, showing my age a little !!  I am now on the same page !! So with a little lateral thinking does that supplier you found supply the pure Iron in wire form?  We could make up bundles and create the radii to suit. Rather like the cores from the days of your !!Alternatively my two youngest sons are employed by a steel fabricators/blacksmiths works and I have learned that their power roller can create a 12" dia or could heat and form down to 3" dia but with some waste created !!Anyway we seem to have some options available to help progress the project.  Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!
 Farrah Day Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #19 on: 2014-01-03, 13:35:32 » Group: Guest Quote from: e2matrix on 2014-01-03, 02:57:25I'm having a hard time understanding what I just found.   I was digging around for 'speaker voice coil material' and I keep seeing Titanium being sold for speaker voice coil making.   Titanium is completely non-magnetic so I don't know what I've found but it's not making sense at first look.   At least titanium does not attract to even strong neo magnets so I may be wrong but I didn't think it would work as a voice coil material.   Adding this info I just found on voice coils:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voice_coilTitanium is not magnetic, and if it was it could not be used as a voice coil former as it would immediately glue itself to the speakers permanent magnet. Titanium is used because it is strong and light, so allows for better hf response. Only the toroidal permanent magnet is magnetic. The titanium is just the coil former, onto which the enamelled copper wire - or aluminium - is wound. The speaker cone moves in response to the magnetic field generated in the voice coil interacting with the permanent magnet. Once the signal in the voice coil ceases, so too does its magnetic field.
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #20 on: 2014-01-03, 14:02:29 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 back to the drawing board with that bit of brilliance then! --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Farrah Day Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #21 on: 2014-01-03, 16:27:05 » Group: Guest Quote from: Duncan on 2014-01-03, 14:02:29 back to the drawing board with that bit of brilliance then! Like you say, you're only an electrician. Besides I figured e2matrix was looking for a simple, straight-forward answer rather than a 10 page, beer-fuelled lecture. Happy New Year!
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #22 on: 2014-01-03, 17:36:52 » Group: Moderator Sr. Member Posts: 385 I simply cant be bothered with you Farrah day --- I should think e2matrix would be considering anything that might work . just as I am, and as for 1 page 2 or 10 so what? it is a transfer of information .. all you have ever transferred on FE forums is snide . I doubt it would ever dawn on you that if there were a 'simple straight-forward answer' every man and his dog would know it already, IMHO  Its about time you got bounced off this forum too !  --------------------------- How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ? http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdfwhilst we know little .. friends remember,In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.D. Erasmus
 Re: Lets start the new year with a bang! « Reply #23 on: 2014-01-03, 17:51:50 » Hero Member Posts: 1740 Dear Duncan.So where are we ?? Are you now having second thoughts regarding the Xmas card sketch ?? Or can this idea be implemented with a not so exotic material instead ?I have just read your remarks on the Crème de la crème (perhaps) thread and being one of those less fortunate to see OU in any of it's guises !! would love to see, even a small clue !! That said I have been out today and purchased the first part for my upcoming Chas Campbell replication, the most expensive part will be got next week, a 6 Kva alternator. Being mostly a pessimistic type of person, I know at least I can couple it up to an old Petter diesel I have tucked away and maybe try out Johan's oil and water mix !!  Cheers Grum. --------------------------- Nanny state ? Left at the gate !!
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