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Author Topic: Marinov Generator  (Read 16452 times)

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3IyiBDjOog

May be interesting... Experiment #21 from Nikolaev's book. Motor and generator experiment.
Unfortunately in Russian, but you can use auto generated and translated subtitles.

Regards,
-V.


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It is my opinion that this Marinov's motor/generator is just a variation of a homopolar generator. 

There appears to be no interaction between the magnet and the ring, but I thin this is a misinterpretation.  Everyone argues that the magnetic field is contained in the closed ring magnet, and it is.  It is assumed that the electric field in contained in the ring and this is incorrect as the electric field extends across the ring due to the differences in potential which exists whether the ring is driven (generator) or powered (motor).  (see Jefimenko paper, page 20, figure 4, attached)

Orthogonal magnetic and electrical fields and "rotation" are the common requirements for homopolar induction with both rotating conductors and dielectrics.  Devices by Rowland, Wilson/Wilson, Roentgen, and Eichenwald all share these same requirements. (attached)

   
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It is my opinion that this Marinov's motor/generator is just a variation of a homopolar generator.
Depends on your definition of "homopolar".  If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is.  But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc.   

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There appears to be no interaction between the magnet and the ring, but I thin this is a misinterpretation.  Everyone argues that the magnetic field is contained in the closed ring magnet, and it is.  It is assumed that the electric field in contained in the ring and this is incorrect as the electric field extends across the ring due to the differences in potential which exists whether the ring is driven (generator) or powered (motor).  (see Jefimenko paper, page 20, figure 4, attached)
But in those Jefimenko demonstrations the electric potential is supplied from an outside source.  In the Marinov generator it is induced and it is that induction that does not obey classical rules and the whole point of the experiment is to show that. 

Quote
Orthogonal magnetic and electrical fields and "rotation" are the common requirements for homopolar induction with both rotating conductors and dielectrics.  Devices by Rowland, Wilson/Wilson, Roentgen, and Eichenwald all share these same requirements. (attached)
Those experiments use something that is rotating in either an electric field or a magnetic field.  In the Marinov generator the slip ring is rotating in neither of those fields.  It is rotating in a constant magnetic vector potential field and that is the whole point, it is different.  Current teachings tell us that the only measurable effect of movement in such a field is the Aharanov-Bohm effect which is a quantum interference effect and not an induced voltage effect.  However the AB effect is adequately explained by the induction that hopefully will be demonstrated here.  And if it truly exists it opens a new paradigm for overunity research.
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The magnet assembly need not be the elongated pair of bar magnets with keepers, it could be a magnetized ring core.  Unfortunately you can't buy a magnetized ring core made of hard magnetic material where the field is all within the core as there is no demand for such a thing.  You can get circular arc segment magnets from KJ Magnetics and make a magnetized ring from them, FEMM simulation attached.

Alternatively a soft magnetic ring core magnetized by a DC energized toroidal coil.  Or if the induction is real then why not have that toroid AC energized, then the device will deliver AC.  That would allow for voltage to be stepped up to something useful by using a transformer.  Should still be OU as the energy would come from loading applied to the dipoles in the core, not from the current in the toroidal excitation coil.

Smudge

Could you not just use two horse shoe magnets joined together?.
Would be a cheap way to achieve what you need.


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Budget setup-if of any use.


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Depends on your definition of "homopolar".  If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is.  But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc.   
...
Smudge

  The Faraday generator continues to be of great interest - nearly 200 years after its invention by Michael Faraday!

   Smudge: "But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc.   "

   Let me ask this, - what if I rotate the magnet WITH the rotating Faraday disk, is there then "the flux-cutting rule"?  and - will there then be a voltage generated in this case, or not?

   

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Depends on your definition of "homopolar".  If homopolar means a DC generator then it certainly is.  But it is unlike the Faraday disc generator in that the conductor is not within a magnetic field so you can't use the flux-cutting rule that applies to the Faraday disc.   

There is an electric field, common to the slip ring, that cuts across the magnet.  I'm suggesting this method of induction is an electrical analog to Faraday Induction.

But in those Jefimenko demonstrations the electric potential is supplied from an outside source.  In the Marinov generator it is induced and it is that induction that does not obey classical rules and the whole point of the experiment is to show that. 

This paper was just to show the electric field lines of a looped conductor.

Those experiments use something that is rotating in either an electric field or a magnetic field.  In the Marinov generator the slip ring is rotating in neither of those fields.  It is rotating in a constant magnetic vector potential field and that is the whole point, it is different.  Current teachings tell us that the only measurable effect of movement in such a field is the Aharanov-Bohm effect which is a quantum interference effect and not an induced voltage effect.  However the AB effect is adequately explained by the induction that hopefully will be demonstrated here.  And if it truly exists it opens a new paradigm for overunity research.
Smudge

This was to illustrate the four similar homopolar methods that are already known, with both electric and magnetic fields.

If the induced current is caused by the  magnetic vector potential field, around the closed magnetic ring, isn't one side of this field in the opposite direction of the other side since the magnetic field vectors are in opposite directions?  I would think that this would apply to my electric field explanation as well.

There is a diagram here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_potential

The effect is the same, either way, but how do you determine which field is producing the induction in the ring?

What if you shielded the magnet from electric fields?  Would the MVP still be there?
   

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Sorry for the double post, but is the magnetic vector potential considered a "force"?

It's units are the same as momentum per unit charge.

   
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There is an electric field, common to the slip ring, that cuts across the magnet.  I'm suggesting this method of induction is an electrical analog to Faraday Induction.
But where does your electric field come from?  If you say it is from the slip ring movement through the magnetic vector potential field then you are agreeing with this approach.

Quote
This paper was just to show the electric field lines of a looped conductor.

Yes, a thin looped conductor connected to a voltage source.  It demonstrates the electric field from the varying voltage drop along the wire.

Quote
If the induced current is caused by the  magnetic vector potential field, around the closed magnetic ring, isn't one side of this field in the opposite direction of the other side since the magnetic field vectors are in opposite directions?

Depend on your viewpoint.  The field passes through the ring magnet so it is in the same direction both sides.  But if you look at it as a field coming out of the ring then in one side the vector points outward and on the other side it points inward and I suppose you could consider that as "opposite".   It is easy to show that the new induction term yields the same polarity from brush to brush over top and bottom halves of the slip ring, so it induces voltage into the external circuit.  Of course that comes from the forces on the mobile conduction electrons.  On the lattice ions there is of course forces in the opposite directions so the reaction on the slip ring is a sideways one trying to move it towards one of the brushes.  And thereby comes the OU, there is no reaction torque, no circular force around the slip ring.  Luckily it can be shown that when the generator is driving current through a load electrons hop from brush to slip ring or vice versa and therefore undergo acceleration, and the radiated E field from that acceleration acts on the atomic electron circulations in the magnet extracting energy that exactly accounts for the generator output.

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The effect is the same, either way, but how do you determine which field is producing the induction in the ring?
There is only one field there, the magnetic vector potential A field.  There is no E field  and there is no B field from the magnet

Quote
What if you shielded the magnet from electric fields?  Would the MVP still be there?
The A field can't be shielded like that, so it would have no effect.
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Phipps noted that there is a back EMF associated with the Marinov Generator and provides a rough formula for it in the summary of this paper.
   
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Sorry for the double post, but is the magnetic vector potential considered a "force"?

It's units are the same as momentum per unit charge.
It is considered to be the source of so called "hidden" momentum, or "canonical" momentum, a form of momentum that is not related to velocity or mass.  Hence a particle with charge q within an A field has this hidden momentum of value qA  pointing along the A direction.  The particle obeys force=rate-of-change of total momentum, F=d(mv+qA)/dt (bold characters are vectors).  So yes, force is involved.

You already know that with transformer induction the secondary coil is outside the core, is not within a B field, and the alternating A field is what drives the electrons in that coil.  There you have a static coil and a time changing A field producing the force.  In the Marinov generator the A field is static but it is non-linear, so an electron moving through it "sees" a time changing A value because of that non-linearity, hence it gets a force.  It is that form of induction that is not recognized classically, although it is the subject of much debate.  I find it odd that the debate has not been settled by experiments such as those suggested here.  It is only the Marinov motor that has been played with and that has given odd results, just ask TK!  There the electron velocities are very low and there is an assumption (wrongly IMO) that the tiny longitudinal induction will cause the slip ring to rotate.   Just how the force translates to the lattice ions is beyond me.
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Phipps noted that there is a back EMF associated with the Marinov Generator and provides a rough formula for it in the summary of this paper.
That was in 1998 but AFAIK the independent observations have never been published.  That formula is classically what you get for any efficient generator where output watts equate to shaft input power, and IMO Phipps used that to hint that the observations were on a generator that simply obeyed COE.  I would be most interested to see someone else's work on the Marinov generator, but years of searching have not revealed anything.
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I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. 

https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf

Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system).

See bottom of page 64:

Quote
In the authors view, the most significant part of the work is the factorization of the convective derivative of the magnetic vector potential resulting in the force terms in Equation (5.11a) to (5.11d). These could in theory lead to new techniques of current induction without magnetic fields, by the movement of particles within the magnetic vector potential field, possibly practical in motor and generator design
   
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I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. 

https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf

Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system).

See bottom of page 64:
Note the date, 2018.  So this is quite new.  Another extract from the document is
Quote
The truthfulness of the above statements will have to be verified with experiment.
New ways of induction in the absence of magnetic fields would open doors in generator
and motor designs. This matter is thus quite significant. The expansion of the
convective term for the magnetic vector potential into (5.11a) to (5.11d) is original to
the best of the authors knowledge.
Well that expansion is not new, I have several papers from other authors where that expansion is followed (including Phipps and written 20 years ago!).  IMO the jury is still out as to whether the Marinov generator is feasible and I am hoping for evidence that it is.  If I am right it could lead to OU but there would be engineering challenges.  A machine built by the likes of the researchers here on this forum would likely not be OU because of those challenges, brush friction and voltage drop would degrade the performance to below 100% efficiency.  But it appears to me that the device is inherently OU and those degradations could be overcome.

Thanks G for bringing that paper to my attention, I'll add it to my stack of papers on the subject.
Smudge

P.S.  I have met Hal Puthoff and corresponded with him.
   

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Perhaps there is a way to manipulate space and the magnetic vector potential that occupies it rather than trying to utilize the feeble manifestation of the magnetic vector potential in  the Marinov Generator.

My point with this statement is that the output of the Marinov Generator is so low. 
   

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I don't know if this paper is helpful, as I just found it and have not read it. 

https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf

Hal Puthoff is on page 47 (communication system).

See bottom of page 64:

Thank you as well Grumpy. Zimmerman I have had dealings with on Researchgate, he writes patents like they are going out of fashion. As you know I am working on the magnetic vector of a loop, as in transmitting loops and wave interference as my idea on the TPU, it is looking good ATM, but still a ways to go me thinks ;)

Regards

Mike 8)


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from the paper I linked above, page 51:

Quote
Interestingly there exists a controversial generator/motor design known as the Marinov motor or Siberian Coliu which was explained with the force term
∇(qv·A) by Stefan Marinov. Theoretical physicist James P. Wesley (1998) agreed with the analysis and noted that the Hopper-Monstein effect, another example of induction with a zero magnetic field, could be explained by it as well.

I don't recall what the Hooper-Monstein effect is.  I'll have to look that up.
« Last Edit: 2018-05-07, 21:28:58 by Grumpy »
   

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I looked up the Hooper-Monstein Effect and find it very interesting.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0ahUKEwjgqPGvuPTaAhWKiOAKHYXiBhAQFggwMAE&url=http%3A%2F%2Fsciencepublishinggroup.com%2Fbook%2Fdownload%3FchapterId%3D4953%26stateId%3D8000%26fileType%3D4&usg=AOvVaw3SfvZsglGQkUyvnqXndny1

See image page 171, quote below on page 172:

Quote
The experiment shows in this case that – in reality, the electric potential and
the electric current are induced by the magnetic potential A and not by the
magnetic induction B=rot A, the A vector being circulary oriented around the
magnet axis and of mutually opposed circular sense for the two magnets, the
total magnetic potential in the P-point being of value: AT =A1+A2=2A, also
when the magnets are rotated in the same sense, so-the electro-magnetic
induced effect in the P-point is of double value, in this case, [3].


   
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I like Tinman's idea for using a plastic food bowl for a quick budget experiment.  His idea of using two horseshoe magnets should work OK but of course the output is low voltage DC.  I think an AC experiment is worthwhile because if this really works and is OU then it will need AC generation.  This is easily achieved by using a soft ferromagnetic ring core driven with AC.  Many of you will have small ring cores that would fit into a plastic drinking glass, so that could be a route to a budget experiment, see images below.  And you will have oscilloscopes that can easily measure low voltage AC to compare with the input.  If it works there should be low voltage AC output that is independent of frequency, in phase with the input current and proportional to rotation speed.  If that is achieved it shows there to be an unusual form of induction that could be OU in that output energy is not derived from the input to the coil, but comes from whatever space energy keeps electrons perpetually spinning and orbiting.  Anyone up for this?
Smudge
   
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