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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > Inductors > copper vs iron core
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Author Topic: copper vs iron core  (Read 41227 times)
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img  darkspeed
copper vs iron core « on: 2010-05-12, 00:06:41 »
Group: Guest

Need some outside the box thinking here..


Besides the basic answer of flux density - what is different between a transformer with a iron core and a transformer with a copper core?
   
img  szaxx
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #1 on: 2010-05-12, 00:22:03 »
Sr. Member
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Posts: 276
Hi DS
 The iron core utilises the magnetic field itself which in the case of an RF coil  would drop the frequency. When copper core or more usually aluminium is inserted it utilises the magnetic charge reacting as to produce an opposing magnetic force and this has the effect of increasing frequency. if you put a block of iron on an electromagnet fed with AC it sticks to it with force if on the other hand you place a block of aluminium in particular (weight) it floats above it. The same effect as in the cores.
There are shaded pole electromagnets that can pick up copper too. Almost iron-ic lol.
Steve
   
img  MileHigh
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #2 on: 2010-05-12, 02:52:31 »
Group: Guest
Darkspeed:

Copper is a non-magnetic material, I am pretty sure.  So they don't make transformers with copper cores.

MileHigh
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #3 on: 2010-05-12, 03:17:48 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-12, 02:52:31
Darkspeed:
Copper is a non-magnetic material, I am pretty sure.  So they don't make transformers with copper cores.
MileHigh
Copper core transformers are made and sold:

http://www.alibaba.com/showroom/transformer-copper-core.html

They appear to have specialized applications.  I'd say non-sparking environments like mines and offshore drilling platforms.  Seems reasonable to me.

--Lee
« Last Edit: 2010-07-14, 21:18:53 by the_big_m_in_ok »
   
img  MileHigh
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #4 on: 2010-05-12, 03:33:24 »
Group: Guest
Well it's certainly a mystery to me, I looked up the relative permeability of copper and it's 0.999994.   For air it's 1.00000037.  That implies an "air core" transformer would work slightly better than a copper core transformer.

the_big_m_in_ok:

No offense but I would classify your link as a "junk" link.  I am not saying that copper core transformers don't exist but that link is not a good link.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2010-05-12, 04:25:22 by MileHigh »
   
img  BEP
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #5 on: 2010-05-12, 11:30:47 »
Group: Guest
Careful folks  ;)

When I buy a new carburetor for my truck I return the 'core' (the old carburetor) for a credit.

As applied to transformers, cores are items which can be rebuilt -or- used as re-cycle material.

There are transformers and other inductors with aluminum, copper, silicon-bronze and brass cores. I doubt you will find them on the web, except for the small RF types.

The purpose of these metals as 'transformer cores' is to control, cause, or adjust inductance. This doesn't mean a copper core may not have another reason.

MH is right. Such metals as the core of an inductor DO make it worse than an air-core. Sometimes that is needed.
   
img  Ken
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #6 on: 2010-05-12, 12:19:31 »
Group: Guest
Hey,

I need to turn in the my A/C compressor core today when I buy the new one. Its not copper. Its aluminum and steel.

So the copper core must be an adjustable core, if it is for control. I don't think I have ever seen a copper core transformer. I would suppose it would be for RF applications and not voltage stepping.

I think the link is for scrap metal.

If you bring donuts to my house (or pigs in a blanket) I will eat them!!
Time to make coffee. I am going so slow time has sped up tremendously!!!

 8)
   
img  Grumpy
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #7 on: 2010-05-12, 13:39:37 »

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Quote from: darkspeed on 2010-05-12, 00:06:41
Need some outside the box thinking here..

Besides the basic answer of flux density - what is different between a transformer with a iron core and a transformer with a copper core?


Like MH said, permeability of copper is about 0.999994, and silicon steel is around 8,500, grain oreinted silicon steel is 30,000, ferrite is 1000.

Copper is diamagnetic, so it slightly repells a magnetic field.  All of the electrons are "paired" with no net magnetic moment per atom.

Side note: Disruptive discharge induced magnetisation of a magnetic material was discovered by Joseph Henry in 1842.

From page 19 of "The Free energy Secrets of Cold Electricty by Peter Lindemann":

Quote
In these several new observations, the phenomenon was violating electrostatic charge
principles experimentally established by Faraday. Projected electrostatic charges
normally spread out over the surface of a metallic shield; they do no penetrate metal.
This effect had certain very non-electrical characteristics. Tesla was truly mystified by
this strange new phenomenon, and searched the literature for references to its
characteristics. No such reference was found, except in the surreptitious observations of two
experimenters. In one case, Joseph Henry observed the magnetization of steel needles by
a heavy spark discharge. The extraordinary feature of this observation (1842) lay in the
fact that the Leyden jar, whose spark apparently produced the magnetizations, stood
on the upper floor of an otherwise electrically impervious building. Brick walls, thick oak
doors, heavy stone and iron flooring, tin ceilings. Moreover, the steel needles were
housed in a vault in the cellar. How did the spark affect such a change through such a
natural barrier? Dr. Henry believed that the spark had released special "light-like rays", and
these were the penetrating agencies responsible for the magnetizations.
   
img  Ken
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #8 on: 2010-05-12, 14:13:35 »
Group: Guest
Grumpy,

So needles 2 floors away were magnetized by a spark?  That's kind of hard to believe.

 8)
   
img  Grumpy
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #9 on: 2010-05-12, 17:37:55 »

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Quote from: Grumpy on 2010-05-12, 13:39:37
Copper is diamagnetic, so it slightly repells a magnetic field.  All of the electrons are "paired" with no net magnetic moment per atom.

I'll go out on a limb and suggest that electron precession in one results in a current and in the other results in magnetization.  ;)
   
img  Grumpy
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #10 on: 2010-05-12, 18:22:24 »

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http://www.google.com/books?id=Q_oLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA51&dq=francis+nipher+magnetic+storms&ei=o97qS4KyEqHwkwTQosGqCA&cd=3#v=onepage&q&f=false

see page 52

Francis Nipher discovered that when either terminal of an influence machine (electrostatic) was connected to a magnet, the strength was increased and attributed this to increased permeability of the air around the magnet.
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #11 on: 2010-05-12, 19:47:15 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-05-12, 03:33:24
the_big_m_in_ok:
No offense but I would classify your link as a "junk" link.  I am not saying that copper core transformers don't exist but that link is not a good link.
MileHigh
Well, you said in the post I quoted from that you didn't think copper core tramsformers weren't being built.  I gave a link to a site which listed some transformers made with copper cores.  That was my point.

I tried the site again from the original post and it ran as usual.  Please keep in mind that some people's computers will not bring up some sites even if the address is spelled correctly and others can invoke the site normally.  I've seen it happen in front of me.  Was that what you meant?  You can't access the site?  You weren't specific as to the exact problem.

--Lee
   
img  darkspeed
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #12 on: 2010-05-12, 20:06:04 »
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I was just wondering if you can achieve some sort of conservation of domain ( magnetic ) in an iron core

http://www.leedskalnin.com/LeedskalninsPerpetualMotionHolder.html

can the same be true for a conservation of charge in a copper core

Why does the copper spend its energy as heat and transmission when there is no apparent loss in the magnetic system

What is the speed of the flux in the magnetic system? <C? Where is the blotch wall? Is it moving at <C?
   
img  Grumpy
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #13 on: 2010-05-12, 21:12:09 »

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Quote from: darkspeed on 2010-05-12, 20:06:04

I was just wondering if you can achieve some sort of conservation of domain ( magnetic ) in an iron core

http://www.leedskalnin.com/LeedskalninsPerpetualMotionHolder.html

can the same be true for a conservation of charge in a copper core

Why does the copper spend its energy as heat and transmission when there is no apparent loss in the magnetic system

What is the speed of the flux in the magnetic system? <C? Where is the blotch wall? Is it moving at <C?

In the first statement are you referring to "remanence"?

It is my understanding that copper can be charged, but it looses this charge gradually after the inducing force is removed.  Electrets conserve their charge.

There are losses in magnetic systems: eddie current, hysteresis losses, etc.

The speed of the magnetic flux depends on the properties of the medium.  Isn't flux a scalar?  It could change faster than the change can propagate.
   
img  Ken
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #14 on: 2010-05-12, 21:21:51 »
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Lee,

When I click the link it brings up a bunch of scrap metal sites. These are not copper core transformers. The one link on the top of the page says they sell a copper core transformer. The rest of the links in the list are scrap metal places. A "core" is referring to, as wavewatcher already said, is the old used part. It can be a transformer, carb, power steering pump etc etc. They make transformers with a laminated steel core with aluminum windings, and if you are scrapping it, you would call it an aluminum transformer core. Even though it has a steel core.

So your link had a link to one copper core trans for sale, the rest are "junk" yards and scrap yards. I think junk was a pun.

 8)
   
img  MileHigh
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #15 on: 2010-05-12, 23:16:40 »
Group: Guest
Grumpy and All:

What about this statement attributed to Francis Nipher:

Quote
the strength was increased and attributed this to increased permeability of the air around the magnet

Anyone care to comment?  (By the way, I wanted to read the referenced passage, and I saw the pages at work.  For some reason at home I can't open the book.)

I have a comment about Peter Lindemanm.  As far as I am concerned he doesn't really know much about electronics or electromagnetism at all.  I would take anything he says with a grain of salt.

MileHigh
   
img  the_big_m_in_ok
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #16 on: 2010-05-12, 23:30:29 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Ken on 2010-05-12, 21:21:51
...So your link had a link to one copper core trans for sale, the rest are "junk" yards and scrap yards. I think junk was a pun.
Okay, I looked at the site more carefully and you're probably right.

However, there's a Swedish company that sells various transformers and one class of these transformers deals with 'audio copper and amorphous strip laminated cores.

http://www.lundahl.se/tubes.html

I do agree, the last sentence address to me by MileHigh may have been a joke.

--Lee
   
img  MileHigh
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #17 on: 2010-05-12, 23:36:09 »
Group: Guest
Actually it wasn't a joke!  Just the use of the generic term!
   
img  darkspeed
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #18 on: 2010-05-12, 23:39:50 »
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coper core transformers exist.

I have seen them in person.

Three interlocked rings of copper like a magnetic transformer but this one was resonant.
   
img  BEP
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #19 on: 2010-05-13, 01:54:15 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: darkspeed on 2010-05-12, 23:39:50

coper core transformers exist.

I have seen them in person.

Three interlocked rings of copper like a magnetic transformer but this one was resonant.



You are correct if you are referring to the Westinghouse polyphase, interlocked toroid transformer. I built a transformer from the patent. It worked quite well.
However, the core and the coils were wound together (not as simply as some might think). What most would call a transformer core wasn't at the 'core' of the device. It was very efficient and could produce the effect of two rotating magnetic fields, on different vectors, but the same center.
   
img  Ken
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #20 on: 2010-05-13, 02:31:57 »
Group: Guest
And then there is beer. 8)
   
img  BEP
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #21 on: 2010-05-13, 03:58:22 »
Group: Guest
Before you go too deep into the beer you may wish to look at the single-phase, simpler version.

US Patent #4595843


-AND-

If you like to have a challenge.... Try this one US Patent#4639610

...."the effect of two rotating magnetic fields, on different vectors, but the same center." Not actual rotating magnetic fields  :)
   
img  MileHigh
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #22 on: 2010-05-13, 04:08:39 »
Group: Guest
No takers on my pop quiz so far!  lol

How about this fact that I stumbled upon: 
Quote
For air it's 1.00000037

What's going on there?  Why is the relative permeability of air that value?  What is that saying to you?

End of the pop quiz part II!

MileHigh
   
img  BEP
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #23 on: 2010-05-13, 04:19:15 »
Group: Guest
Pop quiz?

You do know there is a slight difference between air and vacuum?
   
img  darkspeed
Re: copper vs iron core « Reply #24 on: 2010-05-13, 04:27:56 »
Group: Guest


Let me guess the universe is expanding? or is .00000037 the bong smoke content of the lab?  ;D
   
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