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Author Topic: Flux Gate Interrupter, BEMF Redirector  (Read 321996 times)

Group: Professor
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... the induction on coils have no way to slow it down.
Why?
   
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The each magnet on stator has one polarity facing to rotor and another is open ended.
The relationship between induction magnetic forces and kinetic force of rotor movement is on 90 degrees. This makes perfect isolation between two processes happening in generator.
   
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Dear All.

May I present the T-1000 motor Mk 1  O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9STbGa5zvpg

Cheers Grum.

Positively fantastic Grum!    O0

Can you do one simple test for me...

Connect a 10 ohm resistor to each coil, get a summed volt/amp reading for these and compare against your ~ 12 watt input (check it or set it exact).

I have a strong feeling you have near unity Pout if not more.   ;)  If it does happen to "look" like more, keep the champagne in the bottle for a moment, because the wave form may not be a perfect sine wave, which means power isn't exact.  However, there's enough brain power here at OUR to figure out what to do next.

So far though, I see one heck of a good Proof of Concept.
   

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Everyman decries immorality
Would it be possible to take accurate temperature reading logs during the run and change of the variables ?

I am interested to know if the heat produced is > < or = to direct resistive heating from the same electrical Pin (Power IN)

 O0


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

Group: Professor
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The each magnet on stator has one polarity facing to rotor and another is open ended.
Yes but what happens to the flux from the open end?

The relationship between induction magnetic forces and kinetic force of rotor movement is on 90 degrees. This makes perfect isolation between two processes happening in generator.
This is hard for me to understand. 
What is a "kinetic force" ?   What is a "induction magnetic force" ?  Do you mean the electromotive force caused by Faraday's induction?
   
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The kinetic force is on spinning rotor and the induced magnetic force (Lenz) is between coil and magnet caused by change of magnetic field strength from magnet. Which is caused by change of magnetic flux resistance(permeability) between coil and magnet by rotor movement...
   

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Great to see all the threads on the forums all of a sudden getting active. Thanks to your great builds grum, luc & dragon at ef.

What I can tell you with my latest build having the iron director pass between like poles will double to triple the output. The way I'm currently configuring it in say a design like dragons at ef is to simply have a mag of the same pole at the outer end of a coil core. I remembered the effect from one of luc older experiments showing the effect of same poles facing on solenoids. Also some similar effects  in some jack hb based test I did. 

I'm trying to visualize what is going on by watching all ken wheelers vids:)

Anyway something else for the theorists to do some heavy lifting on :)  if we can understand it or if I can get confirmation that would help. I'll do a scope tomorrow after work.
   
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Verpies, are you willing to continue your excellent essay about inductor energy transfer http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2684.msg43692#msg43692 ?   ;) I'm sure we all will learn a lot if you do that !

I have related question . If we know all parameters like inductance of coil, time of shorting , time of disconnecting, voltage of the source and capacitance of capacitor - can we compute the end voltage on capacitor as a function of current in inductor exactly at the end of Toff (disconnect time) ?
Verpies, you posted about the timing 0.5757tau  where tau is R/L constant . Does the equation E=L*I^2/2  energy stored in magnetic field always apply , also in the 0.5757tau time moment ?
 If Toff is short (less then 1/4 of the period of resonant frequency of LC) - like 0.5757tau , how to compute the amount of energy transfered from coil to the capacitor and the final voltage ? Let assume that the coil is connected in series with power source so the generated EMF add to the power source in moment of disconnecting.
This is in essence Tesla method and also used in DC converters, but theer is always analysed with full wave frequency and duty cycle , never using single pulse.
   

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If we know all parameters like inductance of coil, time of shorting , time of disconnecting, voltage of the source and capacitance of capacitor - can we compute the end voltage on capacitor as a function of current in inductor exactly at the end of Toff (disconnect time) ?
Yes, if the resistive losses are neglected (e.g. because the transfer of energy from the coil to capacitor happens very quickly) then the final voltage in the capacitor will be V = i*SQRT(L / C)
I wrote about this here.

Verpies, you posted about the timing 0.5757tau  where tau is R/L constant.
Oh, the nuances of the English language.
Tau is a "time constant" in the equation but it does not mean that Tau is constant in all circumstances.
In fact the Tau "constant" can be variable if inductance (L) or resistance (R) changes in time, because e.g.: a soft ferro core moves closer to the coil or the wire heats up, respectively.  That's what parametric systems are all about.

Does the equation E=L*I^2/2  energy stored in magnetic field always apply , also in the 0.5757tau time moment ?
Yes, but it should not be named that way.   It is the energy stored in an entire coil/inductor system (not only in its H magnetic field).
This distinction is meaningless in an air coil, but as soon as a soft ferro/ferrimagnetic core is introduced in the neighborhood of the coil, then the polarization of the domains inside that core (M) also has to be accounted for.
That is why I like to think of the ½Li2 as the total magnetic energy of the coil system.

If Toff is short (less then 1/4 of the period of resonant frequency of LC) - like 0.5757tau , how to compute the amount of energy transferred from coil to the capacitor and the final voltage ?
Also by using the relation V = i*SQRT(L / C) where "i" is the instantaneous current flowing in the coil at the moment of disconnect.
If you cannot measure this current then you can calculate it from the Transient State equations of the Circuit theory.

Let assume that the coil is connected in series with power source so the generated EMF add to the power source in moment of disconnecting.
That is an imprecise assumption because you did not write what type of the power source it is, e.g. a constant current or constant voltage power supply.
Such power supplies have very different internal impedances.  Depending which one it is a coil in series with it, is either powered or shorted.

Nontheless, the energy stored in the coil system can be recovered and returned to the power supply.
I do it all the time in my lossless clamps circuits, which return the energy of switching spikes to the power supply, instead of wasting them as heat in RC snubbers or Transorbs or Transils or Zener diodes, etc...
See the schematic below (the orange windings and C3, C4, D3, D4 form these lossless clamps)

Verpies, are you willing to continue your essay about inductor energy transfer http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2684.msg43692#msg43692 ?   ;)
Yes.
If you want to help, divide EL by ER and graph it in time (expressed in Taus)




« Last Edit: 2021-10-24, 08:08:08 by verpies »
   

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Buy me a cigar
Dear Verpies.

WELCOME BACK   I think we have all missed your valuable technical input !!  O0

Now this one is for you and the other members to think about !!   :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzdf8kOfSow

I'm a little perplexed, but that is quite easy !!  :)

Cheers Grum.



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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Hi Grumage,

thanks for the video demo O0

Brad (TinMan) recently did a video to demonstrate you can get voltage and current from a coils core. There is a capacitive effect between coil and core which is interesting.

In dragons prototype all his coil cores are linked together (motor ring stator) which boosts the Inductance which results in a better output. I think that's what you're doing by adding the steel bar.
I could not see if your current would change when you did this?

Thanks for sharing your experiments

Luc
   

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Now this one is for you and the other members to think about !!   :D
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzdf8kOfSow
I'm a little perplexed, but that is quite easy !!  :)
The big difference between sticking a permanent magnet vs. Gary shield to the core is caused by the permeability of one vs the other.
Please remember that the permeability of permanent magnets is close to air - strange but true.  This is caused by the fact that the domains in permanent magnets cannot move easily.  In steel, iron or ferrite - they can.

You have huge stray fields because you have no flux return path of low reluctance from your permanent magnets.  I already pointed out that all permanent magnets have two ends that need to be taken care of.
Any permeable object will affect these stray fields.

Now, the change that you observe while touching the core with your fingers requires more analysis.  I recommend that you concentrate on that and attach various capacitors and resistors between the steel cores and other metal/conductive elements of your system (...and to some grounded water pipe, too, if your power supply provides galvanic isolation).
   
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verpies

I don't understand your equations. I thought that energy in coil magnetic field is E=0.5*L*I^2 and the current flowing into inductor is described by equation :

as in this graphic : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/imgele/indt3.gif

I=Imax*(1-e^-R*t/L), where Imax=U/R as per Ohm law

 :o
   

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I don't understand your equations. I thought that energy in coil magnetic field is E=0.5*L*I^2
Yes, it is but in this equation the current does not vary in time like the real current.

and the current flowing into inductor is described by equation :
I=Imax*(1-e^-R*t/L), where Imax=U/R as per Ohm law
Yes, it is but this equation gives you instantaneous current as a function of time - not energy

Substitute the "I" in the first equation with the "I" from the second equation and you will get my equation of instantaneous energy stored in the coil (EL) since the beginning ...as a function of time.
   
Group: Guest
Dear Verpies.

WELCOME BACK   I think we have all missed your valuable technical input !!  O0

Now this one is for you and the other members to think about !!   :D

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uzdf8kOfSow

I'm a little perplexed, but that is quite easy !!  :)

Cheers Grum.



Experimenting is a blast!

I'll agree with Verpies on his explanation for the change in voltage by applying a magnet or ferrous material (including the croc-clip). Adding permeable ferrous material increases the core inductance so the voltage also increases.
Adding a magnet has the opposite effect because the magnet's field stiffens many of the magnetic domains of the core. They are being attracted by the magnet. You would have the same result if you replaced some of the core with air.

When you short an open coil and see the drive power requirements decrease consider what is happening to the magnetic domains of the core. An open coil means all of the core can be attracted to the passing magnet. A shorted coil means fewer core magnetic domains are free to be attracted to the passing magnet. Why? Because, completing the circuit creates an electromagnet. The result is less drag and less energy required to drive the rotor. 

On the voltage increase with touch of a finger... I imagine the slightest pressure changes the rotor/coil gap enough to change the voltage. It wouldn't take much movement to cause a sizable voltage change.

   
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Yes, it is but in this equation the current does not vary in time like the real current.
Yes, it is but this equation gives you instantaneous current as a function of time - not energy

Substitute the "I" in the first equation with the "I" from the second equation and you will get my equation of instantaneous energy stored in the coil (EL) since the beginning ...as a function of time.

I've done that, but I got different equation with 1 and e^ changed position so I asked  :-\  You posted (e^tau-1)^2 while I got (1-e^tau)^2. Is this diffeence due to discharging energy coil instead of charging ???
The second equation : Er is the energy dissipated in resistance of coil ?
   
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Experimenting is a blast!

I'll agree with Verpies on his explanation for the change in voltage by applying a magnet or ferrous material (including the croc-clip). Adding permeable ferrous material increases the core inductance so the voltage also increases.
Adding a magnet has the opposite effect because the magnet's field stiffens many of the magnetic domains of the core. They are being attracted by the magnet. You would have the same result if you replaced some of the core with air.

When you short an open coil and see the drive power requirements decrease consider what is happening to the magnetic domains of the core. An open coil means all of the core can be attracted to the passing magnet. A shorted coil means fewer core magnetic domains are free to be attracted to the passing magnet. Why? Because, completing the circuit creates an electromagnet. The result is less drag and less energy required to drive the rotor. 

On the voltage increase with touch of a finger... I imagine the slightest pressure changes the rotor/coil gap enough to change the voltage. It wouldn't take much movement to cause a sizable voltage change.


The magnet and coil is stationary. Only core on rotor is moving between them. Also you might ignored electrostatic properties whe Grum touched core with his finger. Considered all what is in video the coils are having induced energy with the same properties as BEMF and Tesla coil have...
   
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The magnet and coil is stationary. Only core on rotor is moving between them. Also you might ignored electrostatic properties whe Grum touched core with his finger. Considered all what is in video the coils are having induced energy with the same properties as BEMF and Tesla coil have...


I stand corrected on what part is stationary. The result is the same. The coil sees a changing magnetic field.
As far as possible capacitive/static effects, I'll leave those up to Grum to determine via experiment.

My suggestion that touch causing deflection is the cause of voltage change is valid but only a suggestion.
Grum appears to be a very skilled experimenter so he can determine the actual cause.
   

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I got (1-e^tau)^2. Is this diffeence due to discharging energy coil instead of charging ???
No.
Analyze what will happen with your equation when Tau=∞
(1-eTau)2  ↔  (1-e)2  → (1-∞)2 → (-∞)2 → +∞
so according to your equation, the energy stored in the inductance increases with time ad infinitum, even if the current does not  :o
...but Alas! we know that this is not true experimentally because after a very long time the current flowing in a series LR circuit stabilizes at the V/R limit and the energy stored in the inductance stabilizes with it in the same manner.
The key to solving that conundrum is remembering about that sign of exponent and that (1-a)2 = (a-1)2 and that R/L= 1/Tau...

The second equation : ER is the energy dissipated in resistance of coil ?
Yes, including any resistance deliberately connected to the coil in series.
However I am surprised you have asked that, because  ER is explained in the Legend.
« Last Edit: 2015-01-15, 12:03:24 by verpies »
   

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My suggestion that touch causing deflection is the cause of voltage change is valid but only a suggestion.
...and a good one at that.
I did not even think about it.
   

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Dear All.

Mystery solved.

As WaveWatcher quite rightly suggested slight pressure on the top of the soft Iron core causes a change in the voltage. There is a little flexibility in the Plastic that forms the top coil carrier plate, I tried touching the side of the core delicately, no change detected.

So, moving on, I have nearly 18 W dissipation.  1.34 volts RMS into 0.1 Ohm Carbon non inductive resistor = 17.96 Watts.  So there is going to be 13.4 Amps circulating ?  My question, why, after 30 mins of running the coil shorted, was there no detectable temperature rise ??
My solid Soft Iron rotor plates rose in temperature from 18.5 C ambient to nearly 26 C over the same time period.

Does anyone have any suggestions for a method of extracting this " Ghost " current, as I have named it ?!!

Cheers Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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1.34 volts RMS into 0.1 Ohm Carbon non inductive resistor = 17.96 Watts.  
So there is going to be 13.4 Amps circulating ?
Yup, there is no escaping that calculation unless the 0.1Ω resistor is inductive or the RMS averaging curcuit is faulty or incapable of operating at that frequency.

You could dispel the latter by showing one or two cycles of the waveform on a scope screen (calibrated display with HiZ input!)
You can verify that the resistor is really non-inductive by feeding it with 100kHz rectangular wave and observing on a scope that the voltage measured across this resistor is also rectangular.

Also, don't let the stray fluctuating magnetic field (dΦ/dt) of your motor induce a voltage in your test equipment!  Keep the distance or shield it well.

My question, why, after 30 mins of running the coil shorted, was there no detectable temperature rise ??
That is unusual.
Put 13.4 Amps DC through that resistor and report a difference in its heating behavior.
Most in-circuit multimeters can measure DC Amps very accurately.  Avoid the clamp-on types.
   

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Dear Verpies and all.

I have put together a short video of the test.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s95CwLmqB-0

I know you will tell me where I have gone wrong !!  ;)  :)

Cheers Grum.

Ok, scratch this one, Gyula spotted I had a 100 Ohm resistor not 0.1 !!  :-[
« Last Edit: 2015-01-15, 20:39:24 by Grumage »


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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No.
Analyze what will happen with your equation when Tau=∞
(1-eTau)2  ↔  (1-e)2  → (1-∞)2 → (-∞)2 → +∞
so according to your equation, the energy stored in the inductance increases with time ad infinitum, even if the current does not  :o
...but Alas! we know that this is not true experimentally because after a very long time the current flowing in a series LR circuit stabilizes at the V/R limit and the energy stored in the inductance stabilizes with it in the same manner.
The key to solving that conundrum is remembering about that sign of exponent and that (1-a)2 = (a-1)2 and that R/L= 1/Tau...
Yes, including any resistance deliberately connected to the coil in series.
However I am surprised you have asked that, because  ER is explained in the Legend.

Sory, I mised Er in legend. However I still wonder what you have as tau because I assume : tau= -(R*t)/L and 1-e^tau where tau -> infinity become simply 1.
In other words what was your assumption to use e^tau-1 ? Is this the part of equation of decaying magnetic field from coil ?

The link I posted explains well the transient in coil but assume we consider only charging inductor with current. In general common available equations and explanations are not enough to contruct any overunity device because they do not explain in details step by step what is happening in inductor and capacitor in resonant circuit.
I believe Tesla used only equations and custom made tools and got incredible results. The same could be done today if someone understand theory very well and is able to compute veird things  about LC tank circuits. For example Tesla experimented a lot to find equation for computing distributing capacitance.
   

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However I still wonder what you have as Tau because I assume : Tau= -(R*t)/L
No, Tau=L/R
However the exponent is -(t*R)/L and this transforms to -t*(R/L) which is the same as -t/(L/R)  and that is simply -t/Tau
Now, if you express the time in Tau (in other words: normalize the t to Tau) then the whole exponent becomes just -Tau

and 1-e^tau where tau -> infinity become simply 1.
e raised to an infinite power is very large... also infinite

In other words what was your assumption to use e^tau-1 ?
It is not an assumption.  It is a result.
I can use (e-TAU - 1)2 instead of  (1 - e-TAU)2 because these two expressions are always equal
I chose the former because that term appeared in my other equations and I wanted all of them to be symmetrical.

The link I posted explains well the transient in coil but assume we consider only charging inductor with current.
Actually these equations are for charging an inductor from a constant voltage source.

In general common available equations and explanations are not enough to construct any overunity device
Of course they are not, but they are accurate nonetheless ...quantitatively.

they do not explain in details step by step what is happening in inductor and capacitor in resonant circuit.
They do quantitatively.
For an exhaustive qualitative explanation without auxiliary concepts, such as fields, flux, charge, etc... you'd need to revamp your understanding of space and time.  Especially the notion of space and time as containers in which matter swims.  I don't think you are ready for that.
BTW: Space / Time = Motion.

I believe Tesla used only equations and custom made tools and got incredible results.
From the point of view of his contemporary peers his results were truly incredible.

The same could be done today if someone understands theory very well and is able to compute weird things about LC tank circuits.
Well, there might be some weird things about ferromagnetic or ferrimagnetic inductors with movable core.
But these equations will not be invalidated for ordinary RL circuits without these features.

For example Tesla experimented a lot to find equation for computing distributing capacitance.
I will not go there in this thread. Distributed capacitance, distributed inductance, transmission line theory, standing waves, etc...belong to other threads.
Here I will limit myself only to pulse motors: magnetostatics and magnetodynamics, electronics and circuit theory of RC, RL and LCR circuits.
   
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