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2018-08-19, 09:02:38
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Author Topic: Cooling effect in transformers, overunity?  (Read 18414 times)
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BF
So to be clear [so I understand !:"]
you are causing a  battery short circuit into a BIG coil [at 5 Hertz pulse] and seeing a chill effect instead of the expected Temp rise?
?
is this correct ?
thx
Chet
   
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That is correct!   O0

Voltage reverse kick is many times the battery voltage, I know that could be of normal magnitude, but it can light up more than led's..

When battery voltage is adjusted the power input goes very low. I can light up 50V  led's from a one volt AA battery, not to full brightness but still more than I ever could hope for  :o

Rgds B-F
   
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BF
The coils are quite Big? so the loss to ambient most be Big Too ...
have you done any calorimetry or sealed the coils inside a very well insulated box in a heated room

 after an overnight "Temp stabilization".

this would be interesting to see.

thx
Chet
   
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Quote
Voltage reverse kick is many times the battery voltage, I know that could be of normal magnitude, but it can light up more than led's..

When battery voltage is adjusted the power input goes very low. I can light up 50V  led's from a one volt AA battery, not to full brightness but still more than I ever could hope for  Shocked

Its called flyback voltage - and many of us have played with this.  I have a 120-V LED bulb I easily light up with flyback voltage from a simple coil, using one AAA battery... I do this routinely, its fun to show.
But - So what?
A transformer can produce higher output voltage than input V also. 
This is NOT overunity!  that is, the power out is still less than the power in...

OR are you claiming more POWER out than power in?
   
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Perhaps this isn't a case where the term, "overunity" can be applied.  Rather, it may be an example of how conventional electricity can be used in a properly configured system to draw cold electricity into said system. 
Bob
   
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Its called flyback voltage - and many of us have played with this.  I have a 120-V LED bulb I easily light up with flyback voltage from a simple coil, using one AAA battery... I do this routinely, its fun to show.
But - So what?
A transformer can produce higher output voltage than input V also.  
This is NOT overunity!  that is, the power out is still less than the power in...

OR are you claiming more POWER out than power in?

Hi!

The only claim I have so far is that the coil/transformer is getting colder/ loosing heat! Since energy can not be destroyed, where does it go? Can we learn how to
catch it?

The effect is more obvious when running low resistance coils.

I started up a solid state version today / 10 Hz or so.

So my question is (related to topic), Is the cooling event possible overunity (heat to electricity conversion)?

Thanks B-F

   
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BF
The coils are quite Big? so the loss to ambient most be Big Too ...
have you done any calorimetry or sealed the coils inside a very well insulated box in a heated room

 after an overnight "Temp stabilization".

this would be interesting to see.

thx
Chet

Working on it!  O0

   
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Posts: 38
Perhaps this isn't a case where the term, "overunity" can be applied.  Rather, it may be an example of how conventional electricity can be used in a properly configured system to draw cold electricity into said system. 
Bob

Hello and welcome  O0

This could very much be the case?..

Rgds B-F
   
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BF
It would truly be amazing to see the temp drop in this scenario.
2 degrees is a huge amount to play with in a sealed caloric chamber.
Very exciting indeed.
Thx
Chet
   
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Hi!
Solid state setup does not work, no or very little cooling...
Rgds B-F
   
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On time for switch must be very short!

Next step is to rise battery voltage to around 2-400V DC, but that will be a little scary  :o

The voltage kickback will be very high!

If you try this, keep a good safety distance!

Thanks B-F
BF
Is it fair to say that your switching device effectively makes this an open system (with opening and closing diploe)?
I just watched a video in which the cap played a crucial role in charge output from an open system, and thought of your setup. The vid was in Spanish, and I posted what I thought were some key points about its apparatus.  Here's the link: 
http://overunity.com/13721/energy-from-the-ground-self-powered-generator-by-barbosa-and-leal/msg436649/#msg436649
Although different setups, do you see anything they might have in common in their charge output?
Bob
   

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Hello all,

While I was reading a paper from the Greek scientist Papimi which is only accessible in the web-archive
I found a description of an engery comparison in an arcing device here:
http://web.archive.org/web/20110820094309/http://www.papimi.gr/university.htm

At the end of the page he referred to Dragones work. So in researching the web for Leon Dragones work I found the following very interesting paper :

http://exvacuo.free.fr/div/Sciences/Dossiers/EM/Leon%20Dragone%20-%20Energetics%20of%20Ferromagnetism.pdf

Regards

Mike

Do not open the second link as it has a virus, my system shut it out thank goodness

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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centraflow
Thanks
I have a computer which I use for these things and would gladly make a copy paste post here for the topic [transfer the Info]

but it seems the PDF is not allowing it ,a copy image window comes up  it seems to allow a "copy" but it doesn't allow me to paste it [for posting here]
it is a very interesting PDF
will look into it some more, maybe later one of the members can "Skype share page" with me to see how we can get it on here

I always Luv Kator's contributions [as do many others]
   

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No problem here to open that link, my Gdata antivirus does not find anything, so i have copied it and attached below.
(I ran extra checks using malwarebytes and SuperAntiSpyware too).


Itsu
   

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No problem here to open that link, my Gdata antivirus does not find anything, so i have copied it and attached below.
(I ran extra checks using malwarebytes and SuperAntiSpyware too).


Itsu

Your copy is ok  O0 but the other link still gives me a warning for some reason :-\

Thanks

Mike 8)


---------------------------
"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   
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Kator
quote
Personally I do not have the means to do such an experiment but I thought it might be of interest.
end quote

I have arranged a discussion with Stefan for the end of this month ,the purpose being to solve this issue [funding ,equipment etc etc
for open source projects

for fellows like yourself !! and others ...............

I am amazed at the resources that can come to the right group [a group which has good history doing service already]

if we build it they will come.......a 100% transparent [for every penny accounted for to the cause not the bookkeeper]

a group that helps those who can't [experiment] help those who can experiment

the resources are stupefying out there ,I am already seeing this.....potential
   

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I am doing a quick replication of the circuit presented on page 1 of this thread, see picture 1
The setup as used can be seen in picture 2

I started with a switch, but this is very tiresome to do, so i replaced it with a MOSFET driven by my FG.

There are some unknowns like the used capacitor and the transformer resistances etc.
Up till now i was not able to notice any cooling effect, but there hardly is any Bemf seen which in my mind could/should be the reason for any cooling effect.

I will keep on trying different caps, frequencies and duty cycles.

Perhaps i need to go to 24V or higher.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yr4q1qh---Q       (watch with chrome or Firefox as in IE its crap)


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2017-10-06, 09:50:35 by Itsu »
   
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@itsu

When I looked at the schematic you posted I was happy to think that finally a switch was on the positive side of the battery but noticed in your video that you then indicated the polarities deployed so you are pulsing the negative side.

For me real Flyback occurs only when the positive is being pulsed. Flyforward occurs only when you pulse the negative side of the battery. This because our diodes only hold back the positive. We never invented the negative diode or it is hidden from open use. So if you really want to play with diodes, some should consider pulsing the positive side. So what. A PNP instead of an NPN. Or if you use a H-Bridge, you will get half positive half negative flyback for free from the Earth rebias.

So at best the flyforward as you have it will occur at negative pulse ON creates a forward conveyance of the negative bias to reverse the positive bias already in and up to the first half of the primary but the diode on the positive to the bulb is killing any chance of that backward conveyance to get to the bulb. Maybe try there a 10-12 volts zenor diode. This way anything above will convey and light the bulb.

Then at pulse OFF, the positive bias reclaims the negative half of the primary conveys back that negative so this may light up the bulb again but now with negative higher voltage. The bulb should not care about positive or negative as long as it sees a bias difference on each side. It's always hard to explain for me because I see these little experiments in a totally different way.

wattsup



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I will reach out for Blind fail [he is an old friend]

to see if he will help with this.

   

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Wattsup,

i too thought that the positive was on the upper / switch side, and i had it connected at first that way, but nothing happened then.
So then i noticed the battery symbol which normally has the positive side on the wider bar, so at the bottom here.

This gave some results as can be seen in the video, allthough the bulbs never light up, but then again, i don't know if they should.
I think i need a bigger back EMF pulse (bigger transformer?) to have some effect, or perhaps the secondary transformer winding together with the cap should be in resonance.

I can try to swap the battery leads again and reverse the diodes, but i prefere to have those unknowns solved first.


Chet,  thanks for your offer, it would be great to have some insight into this.


Itsu
   
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@itsu

Hahaha.

I had prepared my original post as if the positive was being pulsed which has its own set of problems under that schematic. Then when I noticed your +/- on your video I changed it over to make if more relevant.

But, if the positive was pulsed, the same general problem is the primary of your transformer is probably just shorting out the battery to zero volts at each pulse leaving nothing for the bulbs. For now just try other primaries or even secondaries with more turns. Or, what frequency range can you pulse since you may have to go higher if the primary inductance is so low.

Also if the positive was on the switch side you would still need a zenor diode from the bulb pointing to the feed. The zenor will keep out power from the feed to the bulb up to a certain voltage making it available only to the primary and anything above that will drain to the bulb during flyback, pulse off.

This little circuit is good because it also helps show how if you consider electricity as flowing in one direction, it should never work. it should also show how we reinforce the electron travel model by saying that flyback is an outside field that miraculously jumps back into the coil to produce that peak voltage at pulse off. Since the electrons in one direction cannot do it on their own they needed to add the field collapse construct so EEers would have something to grasp onto regardless of the logic base going against it.

OK, let's say you just took a transformer and just shorted the thick primary leads directly onto the battery. Nine out of ten times the primary will eventually blow near the center winds. Rarely will it blow near the end turns. Why? Why should it blow anywhere if electricity is traveling in one direction then the stresses should be equal and dispersed throughout the primary? That never makes sense. But if DC feeds are actually both feeding both polarities into the circuit, meeting at coil center as the war of potentials fights it out while they get hot then it is our unconscious use of the diode that relegates and enforces the directional thought process of our present electrical concepts. Especially when our diodes only stop the positive from conveying back into the positive feed. We created our own play pen with the fences already set up to keep us in limbo. So where is the negative diode? None around. Why can you make a positive diode and not a negative diode? No answer ever given.

So if our electricity travels as electrons in a wire, why should the electron care about polarity while it is traveling in the wire? How are positive electrons and negative electrons possible when all they are doing is traveling in a wire? hahaha Basic EE is in trouble. Yes our systems work but we still don't know why at the atomic level.

But if you stop and consider that the battery voltage has two polarities that feed, but more appropriately convey, I'll say "forward" for simplicity, into the circuit up to the central point of the circuit which in this instance is either the center of the bulbs and the center of the primary, since both are in parallel, then look at how the diode holds back only the positive conveying forward, you will see that;

1) if the negative is pulsed, the two diodes on the positive of the bulb are useless other then acting like resistors. The bottom diode between the positive line and the bulb should be a zenor type rated at the applied voltage or slightly less.

2) if the positive is being pulsed under that same circuit, there should still be a top zenor diode required between the feed and the bulb.

OK, if you removed the transformer can your pulse light up the bulbs? If not take one bulb off and try again. Can it light up that one bulb? That would be another place to start as well.

wattsup



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wattsup

Nice comment, and i agree with this:  "Yes our systems work but we still don't know why at the atomic level."

So therefor people like us, who are trying to find some effect for the benefit of mankind.

Anyway, the primary measures 40 Ohm and 2.8H @ 1Khz (3.4H @ 100Hz), so the current at 12V is only 300mA.
The secondary measures 0.5 Ohm and 1.6mH @ 1Khz (17.5mH @ 100Hz).

As this suppose to work with "any switching device" including a button switch i guess the frequency for the cooling effect to show up should be around 5Hz.

When i remove the transformer, nothing happens as the upper diode blocks the voltage to the bulbs.

Itsu
« Last Edit: 2017-10-06, 15:28:03 by Itsu »
   

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I used a 40uF motor run cap parallel to the secondary and cranked up the frequency to show resonance using my current probe in the secondary LC circuit.
I cannot use my voltage probe (ground) as it would short out the FG ground lead.

At 920Hz we are in resonance on the secondary, but no cooling effect seen.

Screenshot shows:
yellow the drain / source voltage on the MOSFET
green  the current through the secondary LC circuit (0.5A/Div.)

Itsu
   
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itsu
I missed him this AM and now its too late [crazy busy day today in FE world]

I'll ring him tomorrow



   

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Buy me some coffee
Im not sure about transformers cooling down,but i have seen something odd on many occasions.

Quite often,when using a small gauge wire to run a large motor under load,i have noticed that the wire from the positive of the battery-to the motor gets very hot,while the same size wire going from the motor to the negative of the battery remains cold  ???

How can this be when the same amount of current is flowing through both wire's,which are of the same size/gauge ?.


Brad


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