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Author Topic: EZ Spin motor - homebuild  (Read 41452 times)
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   Graphite is a good idea.

"Tomorrow i'll have a look see, using a 0.1F capacitor. " 
Right - I was going to mention that, to permit shorter-time runs for comparative tests as you make small changes and test again.
 
   
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  I see that Lidmotor has built the 12-coil version of Lasersaber's EZ spin.  Nice, but as he says in the vid, very tedious to wind 12 coils with thousands of turns of very fine wire!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TZLEQfUixZg&feature=em-uploademail  = Lidmotor build

What you have done, Mark, is to replace this tedious winding process with coils ready-made and cheap from dancing-flowers, and shown that they work very well indeed!

As we continue to share ideas in the community, fast progress should ensue...
   

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@ Slider-or anyone that knows.
How is a DC cap being charged with an AC current?-i believe there are no diodes in the circuits?
The only way i see this happening is if the reed switch is closed on the forward current side of the AC sign wave,and open on the reverse (lower)side of the AC sine wave-would this be correct?.

Think i may join in on the fun here,and see how efficient i can get it to run.
Are we useing the 1 farad cap as a test point?,if so,what voltage are we charging it to at the start of the run/.

Great job Mark O0


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In reply to both chaps.
How this started with the 1F, was because that had been the efficiency testing sizing of capacitor for previous builds. Regular 2200uF etc didn't give enough power to spin up and run, sometimes at all and 1F was the only size of supercap owned for years (recovered 2 of them from a junk circuitboard). I note that Jimboot also tested with 1F on his 'Ossis'. Up until LS's motor design they made sense.
This motor would lock up with magnetic flux at about 0.8V at first. The rotor was too light and there was hardly a flywheel effect. Hence the low charge voltage to start a run. 1V seems right for rotor run speed, being easier to calculate from too.
Also, Lidmotor usually shows a 5F and I was intrigued with how the 1F would compare...anything past 1/5th of his builds 10+ hour run was the intention when using a reed. It would allow seeing if I had got the build on the right track.
 
There seems merit in piggy backing the coils. 1 for power, 1 for pickup ?
As I see it, there is EMF flying out from the front and from the back with each powering pulse.
Why not collect the otherwise wasted rearside energies ?

I'm delighted that you are here too Brad. The Cool Joule got me really interested in these coils, with the idea to use them on that circuit. When first looking for 'dancing' coils to use, the CJ that had run continuously for a few months last year was deliberated on for its coils to salvage. For the heck of it I put a clip lead end across the transistor, the LED fired up again and it's garden light AAA's have been running it for the past few days...nope, aint touching that thing !
In fact, the two systems are not very far apart. Simple, effective, mind blowingly efficient.

It has to be something with the reed closing for the motor charge, I agree. Doesn't that seem very handy for any motor build ! avoids the diode losses and smoothing aspects. Needs a scope study to inspect what is happening.
At only 1 fine placement, that i've found anyway, the motor picks up and runs differently to any other placements. Even a millimeter difference drops that sweet spot and bolsters the peak of wave thoughts. Though, is this not simply pulse wave, on/off ? It also relates to the Hall positioning of the White Crow (mentioned on the previous page).
Intriguingly, LS and Lidmotor have the reed between coils, whereas that spot seems to be actually on a coil on this build.




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Buy me some coffee
@ Mark
well i do have hundreds of those 240 to 120 volt stepdown transformers that have the wrong plug for us here in OZ-the coils on them are like the ones i used on the cool joule.
Or,i do have this other coil,but we'll leave that one as a supprize O0


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Hi Mark,

Regarding the voltage regulator, first I thought of suggesting a Joule thief (or Amstrong oscillator) with a rectifier added to use as a step-up DC-DC converter, then use a micropower voltage regulator IC  but this may not be the best solution because the oscillator itself may consume more power for its own operation than your motor needs.

Nevertheless, see these interesting posts and tests on these here (I mean the four posts, not the total thread):
http://overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg348682/#msg348682  
http://overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg348682/#msg348682
http://overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg350384/#msg350384
http://overunity.com/13175/25mv-joule-thief-powered-by-peltier-merely-using-our-body-heat-free-energy-247/msg351060/#msg351060


So I turned to boost converters designed for energy harvesting applications and Texas Instruments has the BQ25504 integrated circuit which can start up with an input voltage as low as 330 mVDC and then can continue working down to an input voltage of 80 mV while producing output between 2.5 to 5.25 V, able to charge Li-ion and thin-film rechargable batteries, supercaps or normal capacitors, with MPPT (maximum power point tracking).  Data sheet is here: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/bq25504.pdf

Another interesting IC is a buck converter (from also TI), the TPS6273X family, see data sheet here:
http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps62736.pdf  though this has an input voltage range between 2 V to 5.5 V and a resistor programmable output voltage range between 1.3 V and 5 V.

Latest ultra-low power DC/DC converter family is here: http://www.ti.com/lit/sg/slyt593/slyt593.pdf

Yet another good possibility is to study charge pump circuits, the TPS6030X family, they give 3 to 3.3 V output voltage from 0.9 to 1.8 V input, though they have 35 uA (microAmper) self consumption (while the above ICs all have some hundred nanoAmper consumption only). With these switched capacitor charge pump circuits the advantage is that the ICs need five 1uF capacitors only, and no coil. See data sheet: http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/tps60300.pdf

You may not like tinkering with tiny IC packages like most of the above chips have and I can understand it...  :D

Would like to return to the generator coil question: it is natural that coils with thicker wire and with some hundred turns only, the induced output voltage turns out to be way less than with coils with very fine wire and with some thousand or so number of turns. To compensate this to a certain degree, perhaps stronger magnets could be fixed to the rotor for generating,  and also the use of good ferromagnetic cores for the gen coils can also enhance induced voltage.
The piggy backing sounds ok as long as you start loading the power coil and see what output remains from the 500 Ohm coils, to get a reference and then check a cored home made coil and compare to the (same comparably chosen) load you attach (note also the drag with an Ammeter).  If you have an L meter, you can check the 500 Ohm coil inductance and then approach that value with a cored home made or cored off the shelf coil wound from thicker wire. If you manage to approach it say 35-40 % in value i.e if the 500 Ohm coil has say 1 Henry, then approach it to say with a 350-400 milliHenry cored coil of thick wire,  and there would be a certain value load current where the loss in the 500 Ohm coil will render that coil  a poorer performer than the cored coil. If not, then for lower than that certain value load current just use the 500 Ohm coil.  Maybe I have expressed this understandably I hope...  :)

While it is okay that when the load current for a generator coil is relatively low (and your present motor setup consumes in the microAmper range) then the 500 Ohm DC resistance of a gen coil (like you use for driving the rotor of the motor now) may not introduce a huge loss, remember that in this scenario the best output would be most likely less than the input... I think. one reason for instance, with piggy backed coils the outer coil is further away from the rotor magnets hence induction is different with respect to the coil closer to the magnets.

Sorry for the long post and the many links, I know it takes time to digest...  C.C  And I am not an agent for TI... ;D

Gyula
   
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Quote
I am not an agent for TI
Pffft..yeah sure buddy  8)

Only joking :)

Thank you so much for all those details !!!
You sent me on a wild foray with that OU thread, have read most of it. Spent a couple of hours replicating the FET circuit, though using an MPSA18 transistor. I know i've seen K170's here somewhere on some old junk, just have to find them.
Anyway, with the MPSA18 I can light a white LED to partial brightness, using a 12706 peltier. Should say, it flashes and needs the Emitter/Collector start up with a piece of metal. Incredibly intriguing though to need just 50mV or so.
Also apologies for the delayed response..a large A/C unit fell off the house ! It's one of those that goes where a window should be and has been in situ fine for the 7 years we've been here. An old arcade game back door is now filling the hole in the house C.C

Those boost converters are great. I think an ideal would be a self limiter, where it always outputs the 1V and anything else is handled up or down. The BQ25504 looks to be along the thinking lines. Do bear in mind i've no actual clue, just a vision of a system....and it won't be the likes of Tesla's visions, that can be assured :)
Many thanks for those detailed looks into what is available.
Am fine with SMD by the way, but not the micrometer pin distances of some chips. At 45, more than a magnifying glass would be needed.

Not got an inductance meter, but the logic was easy enough to follow. I think the idea would be to recover the back of the coil energy with a piggyback coil, that formed no load on the front of the coil. Am much more likely to fit the coils between powering coils however and merely try out the piggyback version.

@Tinman - looking forward to the coil surprise !

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An idea, remote rotors.
Some time ago, I showed multiple rotors being driven, magnetically, from 1 powered rotor.
The thing being, that such rotors can spin at an exact double multiple of the powering rotor.
If the powered rotor has 2 magnets and the remote rotor has 4, it stands to reason that twice the energy can be extracted.
The powered rotor sees a pull from the remote one, which, in this case is beneficial...because these motors use less power the slower the rotor is moving.
To explain and demonstrate the initial concept, here is a short 'Unlisted' video made this evening.

[youtube]4dyyq492SVg[/youtube]



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Hi Mark,

I think it is good idea to use 'remote' rotors, coupled to the powered rotor magnetically. Although I assume if you try to 'load' the remote rotor very gently by your finger, you would see a proportional small increase in the input current draw of the powered motor, the double speed may reward you with some juice from the generator coils applied at the remote rotor. So it is worth trying to explore I think. The diameter of the remote rotor compared to the powered rotor may deserve further thinking as do the number of poles I think.  

What I tried to tell with the example of the 500 Ohm coil vs a much smaller DC resistance coil is that the obviously less induction into the smaller coil, at a given load, may easily become comparable to the loaded output of the 500 Ohm generator coil just because the loss in the latter 'consumes' the higher part of the induced voltage and the outer useful load cannot receive it. But this may be so beyond a certain load current value and not likely at the microamper load currents your present stator cois in the motor may consume.  (Have you measured the uA, by the way? just curious...)

With the piggyback coil you propose to fit it between two powered coils, it is surely worth testing and make conclusions.

MY intention with the first 4 links to overunity.com was not to distract you for a couple of hours from this EZ spin motor...  :D  but to illustrate how a low level voltage source could be enhanced to a higher level. BUT those circuits do consume precious milliAmpers instead of microAmpers for the conversion and unless you have the means to supply the charge consumed from your supercap, the supercap will discharge more rapidly than with the dedicated converters of microwatt self consumption.

Gyula
   
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  Mark,
    I very much agree that experimenting on the use of coupled magnetic rotors - and drawing power from the driven rotor -- is a very good path to explore.  We have seen some claims of anomalous effects before, when magnets are coupled at a distance -- I've seen some anomalies myself...  It's as if the wheelwork of nature "helps" magnets to remain coupled at a distance... ?
Fun stuff!
Steve

   
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  If you have two low-leakage caps, one to run the motor, the other to collect energy from the coupled-rotor (for instance, using a diode), then it is a simple matter to calculate the input energy used and the output energy collected, using E = 1/2 C(Vf^2 - Vi^2), where Vf = final voltage on the cap and Vi = initial voltage on the cap. 
  That is, it is not necessary to re-cycle the power (that may involve too many losses to be practical at this stage) -  one can just measure Eout/Ein ...!  (or if easier, Pout/Pin. )
   
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Will try that certainly.
While the exact mechanism for how the charge enters the run cap isn't known, it may be an idea to set up a similar motor, with no drive cap. Such that, the reed switches by the rotation, but that rotation is derived from being a remote rotor.
As it so happens, I built something very similar a few weeks ago, using 1 'dancing' coil. It was to have been fully dismembered to reuse the coil, but luckily was kept mostly together (pic attached).
If I can get the 2 close enough it might.just.work :)

The 24hr leakage test of the 1F cap produced a start of 1.023V and 29hr end of 0.710V.


Something odd happened last night - the rotor pulled itself to a halt in the usual clockwise direction and started up in reverse !
Then the LED started flashing !
That was with the 0.1F cap. It seems related to the so called 'bias' magnet positioning.
But the reed is set up for clockwise motion. Also, the realisation that the LED is in backwards (doh!).
Try as I might to pick off the returning energy through the LED, it keeps flashing and that doesn't seem right. Normally, putting a diode each way to a collection cap will draw the spike energy from an LED.

Here's a quick video demo of what happened.
Another funny thing, was that I discovered the CFL emissions watch circuit that I timed with, kept running when the light was switched off for up to 5 minutes. By using it for timing and it getting its power from the lightbulb, a panic set in of losing the time...but it came back up fine when the light was switched back on.

[youtube]b3MwpAIv39Y[/youtube]



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  Anomalies are fun.  I think that's how I learn best - facing an anomaly, and one day, that anomaly will turn into a discovery of some significance (IMO).

Quote
While the exact mechanism for how the charge enters the run cap isn't known, it may be an idea to set up a similar motor, with no drive cap. Such that, the reed switches by the rotation, but that rotation is derived from being a remote rotor.
As it so happens, I built something very similar a few weeks ago, using 1 'dancing' coil. It was to have been fully dismembered to reuse the coil, but luckily was kept mostly together (pic attached).
If I can get the 2 close enough it might.just.work

Glad you kept it mostly together!  I realize you have a lot of dancing toys coming and I was hoping they would come sooner; but if you are in a rush, I have four or five here I could send immediately.  Dancing flower, bear, elf, etc.

Because of you, Mark, when I go to the Dollar Tree, I sometimes pick up one or two of these.  O0

Also, I wonder if having the LED the "wrong way" around actually helped you get a longer run?
   
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Haha, Greenbrier Imports may well be a link in OU success  O0
The store throws up some useful gear.
The coils should be here in the next few days I would expect - but - on making inquiries with staff, they did say 'the truck' will be bringing Valentines products this Saturday. There is a Valentine dancer, the devil. So if no word by Saturday afternoon then any needed for now will be picked up right off the shop floor.
Thanks for the kind thought though of course !
 
Maybe the error with the LED wasn't, in retrospect !
However, the 0.1F did run it backwards, with flashing for an hour. The flash was seen down to around 0.7V, then faded to nothing lower down the voltages. That's not bad, would equate to 10hrs on 1F, though that isn't a scientific appraisal.


It turns out that the remote rotor can't get close enough. So, i've taken the coil off and put it on the small one (seen in the above vid). A very rough arrangement with a germanium diode see's output of approx 40mV from the 1 coil, which doesn't seem half bad.
Its glue is setting at the moment, then a real test will be done, with sending that output to the drive cap too.
Thinking onward. Do I connect individually with individual outputs, or, connect up in the same fashion as the driven rotor in series. If in series then only 1 diode would be needed.



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Hi Mark,

Just briefly,  the remote rotor may benefit from using strong Neos there, thus giving more juice.  You may have to place it further away from the powered motor though.
IF the output waveform from the generator coils has a zero crossing and negative amplitude, then a single diode is not enough.  And to avoid using the 4 diode bridge with its double forward voltage losses, there is the full wave voltage doubler circuit with two diodes only, you surely know it:
  http://www.daenotes.com/images/full-wave-voltage-doubler.png   from this site:
http://www.daenotes.com/electronics/devices-circuits/voltage-multipler

A question on your LED, as is shown in the video the LED is in series with the reed with a forward direction, i.e. the LED conducts and lights up (or flashes) whenever the reed is ON, right?  At least this is how you used it in the last couple of days?.

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Ah yes, I know that circuit quite well. It's similar to the 'inventor3' circuit on YouTube, a variant of which powers my CFL powered clocks, as seen in the timing runs so far.
One thing i've never tried, is a rotor larger than the powering rotor. All of mine have been made from water bottle tops.

The LED is in parallel with the reed. It works similarly to an induction coil with transistor switching, where a diode will be across the coil to prevent reverse energy damage.
As far as my knowledge goes, the LED flashes at the instant the reed opens again.

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Here's some run data, from the first remote rotor loop return test.
This is where those with a lot more mathematics skills than myself would be appreciated.
Mainly, how many coils of this output would be needed to equal energy used by the driven circuit ?
The best harvesting would appear to be at the start, in the 0.8V to 1V area. Unfortunately I didn't keep an eye on the output from the remote coil, was seeing if the remote rotor dragged the whole thing down. Which, it doesn't, the 0.1F cap put in the same 1hr run as with no remote rotor.
Edit: -or- did the returning energy allow the 1hr run ?!  ???
As usual, 'never thought of that'.

0.1F cap, charged to 0.827V
At the beginning of the run, the output of 1 'dancing' coil and 1 germanium diode was:
40mV @ 250uA

Voltage Time
0.827   1.50pm
0.535   2.10pm
0.475   2.15pm
0.431   2.20pm - Remote rotor lost sync
0.363   2.30pm
0.332   2.35pm
0.305   2.40pm
0.280   2.45pm
0.259   2.50pm
Stopped a couple of minutes later.

« Last Edit: 2015-01-22, 21:39:36 by Slider2732 »


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Hi Mark,

Thanks for the details on the LED connection and yes it should flash when the reed just opens, the flash due to the voltage spike created by the collapsing field of the coils.

On your remote rotor: maybe it is not the best to use an even-odd (i.e. 2:3) combination for the two rotors, I think either use 2 or 4 magnets on the remote rotor. Or you meant using the 3 larger magnets on the "input" rotor fed by the supercap? 

If you have used a single diode, this means half of the induced power from the gen coil remained unused, it did not get into the puffer capacitor.

Your wrote "At the beginning of the run, the output of 1 'dancing' coil and 1 germanium diode was: 40mV @ 250uA"
How do you mean: the diode drives a separate puffer cap or it drives the 0.1 F supercap or? And how the 250 uA was measured? by an ammeter that shorted the output? Sorry but I do not wish to guess.

I think first the generator side ought to be made to produce at least as high output voltage in a similar puffer cap than the run cap which has the voltage level around 0.8 to 1 V or so AND then load the gen coils puffer cap by a resistor to draw as much current as the input motor draws from input cap. When these two the voltage and current are more or less in the same range, you could try the looping. Of course this is my take on this...

Thanks Gyula
   
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And I appreciate your input  O0

The larger magnets line was deleted from the post soon after posting (thanks for inquiring though, you were quick!). Because of something stupid, by me. I'd put them on another rotor and was aligning them, the rotor has 2 tiny neos embedded in the plastic and then larger or more magnets simply snap on to those embedded ones. Wellllll, the 2 large magnets are roughly the size of an LR44 button cell each and somehow snapped together and sprang from my hand  C.C they landed 'somewhere' in either of 2 filled up parts boxes behind me !
Needless to say, the idea is on pause.
That idea was to put the 3 on a larger rotor, with 6 coils around them.

The output of the remote rotor coil + diode was measured directly via a DMM, then with an analog meter (Sperry SP6-A).
In circuit, the output can't be measured as yet, because of feeding to the 0.1F cap.
Next up will be to fill a capacitor, to look at resultant top voltage and fill rate. Will use a 1000uF and then a 0.1F.
Then to build the circuit you linked to for full rectification.
Yes I did jump the gun a bit there, but was intrigued to see if the depletion rate of the capacitor changed.
ETA: In wireless electricity experiments, my usual field,  i've found that 1 diode will run motors, fill caps etc. Rather than being rectified to Positive and Negative, it seems more a case of Positive and positive + negative, equaling zero. That may not be right, but it works and where a FWBR can give inferior results.  


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Mark, I found a site where there is an online calculator for supercapacitors discharge time with known load current, capacitor start and end voltages, capacitor size and its ESR. They consider two methods: the constant current discharge and the resistor load discharge and they calculate an R resistor value which would discharge the given cap with the above given parameters during a measured time in seconds.

Using the link http://www.circuits.dk/calculator_capacitor_discharge.htm  the leakage resistance value for you 29 hour long time data (it is 104400 second) gives R=2858532.01 Ohm i.e. 2.858532 MegOhm. So your 0.1 Farad capacitor has a 2.85 MegOHm parallel resistor built-in forever. 

I got this R value by entering (in this order) the 1.023V, the 0.71V, the 0.1 F, 20 Ohm for ESR and played with the Imax values which approached best the 104400 second for the resistor load discharge line, it was 0.357876 uA, this gave 104400.105 seconds, close enough I think...

Notice that I assumed at least a 20 Ohm ESR for your 0.1 F supercap because for the 5.5 V rated caps this may be true. If not, then it causes a small mistake in this low uA discharge current range but in the several mA or higher current ranges you should know the ESR from data sheet for that type of supercap. I think the supercaps with 2.6 to 2.7V voltage ratings have an ESR of less than 0.2 Ohm or so, the better qualities have 0.05 Ohm or so, this is frequency dependent too.



Next up will be to fill a capacitor, to look at resultant top voltage and fill rate. Will use a 1000uF and then a 0.1F.
Then to build the circuit you linked to for full rectification. 

I would agree with that 'agenda'  8)      Regarding the remaining two larger magnets, if you agree, you could just use them for the remote rotor, so the running motor need not be changed.  So you would have a 2:2 magnet combination for the two rotors, this would not result in a double speed for the remote rotor but maybe you could 'compensate this virtual loss' by using at least twice as big diameter rotor than the running rotor has?  What do you think?

Quote

ETA: In wireless electricity experiments, my usual field,  i've found that 1 diode will run motors, fill caps etc. Rather than being rectified to Positive and Negative, it seems more a case of Positive and positive + negative, equaling zero. That may not be right, but it works and where a FWBR can give inferior results.  

IT would be good to see on a scope what the induced waveform looks like, if you do not have a scope than there remains a comparison test: build the full wave voltage doubler and check the DC voltage levels in the two series capacitors. If they are rather different from each other then the induced voltage has a differing positive and negative half wave amplitudes but still. when you sum them in the two series caps, the result will surely be higher than either one of the halfwaves.  A FWBR "eats up" twice the forward voltage drop from each half wave.  I cannot comment more precisely what you described because of lack of other data but this is not the issue now.

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Nice link there Gyula and thanks for the calculations.
I wish that Ebay would keep older purchases details (do they ?) because then i'd know some better specifics. Just thought it might be an idea to avail you of my supercaps, in case something jumps out for runs later down the line. I expect to see the ability soon to run well from 1000uF and other electrolytics, but am wondering about the discharge resistance and if it could work in favour of such a motor. I don't want to put a speed brake on the motor with a resistor, but would like to start at higher than ~1.3V with maximum return charging possibilities from pickup coils. In other words, run longer at good generating speeds, with the aim of the charge amount overtaking the run cap storage.
6x 0.1F 5.5V (Maruti ?), it's a letter M in a squared box.
Half dozen bag of mixed from 1.0F to 10F nanoforce by DRL 2.7V.  
2x circa year 2000, 1F 5.5V much larger ones by Maxcap, found on salvaged commercial equip circuit boards.
Finally a 1F 5.5V the size of a small rhinocerous by NEC. That last one must be 20+ years old by the look of it, it's got rust on it too.
If the age brings internal resistance, but all caps actually charge to the correct voltage and Farad rating, does that help a motor at all that wishes to sip power ?

Oh, have only got one of those magnets left unfortunately. 2 flew away and there were only 3.
However, the 'dancing' toys on order should have the same neos on them as you see on the main motor. They can be doubled or trebled on a rotor. Those other two were about to be tested on the remote rotor.
Indeed i'd like to try a larger main rotor and see if smaller rotors will spin fine with it.
Important to all of this, may be that i've had 4 remote rotors all going before now. They will chain too, gets tricky to match speeds but is doable.

Got 3 scopes and all 3 need a scope to sort them out !
1 is an EICO TR-410, older than Noah with a round green screen. Actually that one might still work, you've got me thinking :)
A dual input 20MHz Protek 6502, traces only mains hum now for no reason I can fathom.
A DS-203 pocket scope with firmware issues. Function gen works, but scope inputs don't. We do now have a registered version of Windows 7 since a couple of days ago and i'll reflash it. It didn't want to flash with Peppermint Linux.



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1000uF electrolytic charge test, from single 'dancing' coil + germanium diode on remote rotor.
Run supercap was a 0.1F at 0.750V
Test cap repeatedly discharged for 10 secs, for dialectric absorption rest of a repeat tested ~0.036V
Both rotors were running, in sync.
10 secs to charge to 0.136V, 5 times.
Top out ~0.180V after a further 2 minutes.

Starting at 0.900V, the top out is 0.253V.
Starting at 1.000V, the top out is 0.328V.

« Last Edit: 2015-01-23, 04:04:36 by Slider2732 »


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Thanks for taking these measurements, Mark.
I know you're doing a lot, and it is much appreciated.
   
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Hi MArk,

Well,  although you could do some discharge tests with your supercaps one by one when you have the time, with known (measured) value resistors and with precise time measurements (say with a stop watch) but in order to use the online calculator link you should also know the actual capacitor value too. So there are two unknowns actually, maybe you have access to C meter able to measure in the Farad range, that would be good. Also, ESR meters are also available for capacitors, they look like a smaller DMM, but this depends on the make of course.
By the way, here is a link to an Application Note to measure supercaps parameters, though it is a specific product with known parameters, it may help to explore your caps too. https://www.tecategroup.com/app_notes/CAP-XX_AN1005%20Simple%20Supercapacitor%20Measurement%202-1.pdf  Of course, there are other methods, other members here may be able to suggest further methods.

For your 1 Farad 2.7V Nanoforce capacitors here is link where a value on short circuit current is given, 3.17 Amper and assuming the cap is charged up to the max 2.7V the ESR may be 2.7V/3.17A = 0.85 Ohm. Although the short circuit current is given. other manufacturers do give the direct ESR value for their super or ultracap products, Nanoforce seems not to do so for this 1F type: http://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/super-cap-samll-capacity-2-7v_1644343150.html 
With similar search you may explore some other types of your caps, I used these keywords in google: " nanoforce dlr 1F 2.7V supercap ". 

On your question: "If the age brings internal resistance, but all caps actually charge to the correct voltage and Farad rating, does that help a motor at all that wishes to sip power ?"

I would say yes it does. Aging has larger effect on supercaps when they are not used for years but if you charge them up to just under their rated voltage (say to 2.5-2.6V for a 2.7V cap) and keep the 2.5V voltage on the cap for some hours then disharge it (not with a srewdriver bang but with a resistor) and then repeat the charge up again, your cap will be revived in most cases and would serve like a new one. 

You wrote: "Indeed i'd like to try a larger main rotor and see if smaller rotors will spin fine with it."

When the number of magnets are two and two on the driving and the remote rotors, respectively, then syncronism may be more difficult to maintain because the flux connection between the rotors changes (fluctuates) in a greater degree versus the case when the number of magnets are higher than two on each rotor. So it would be advisable to use say 4 on the driving and 4 on the remote rotor, this latter having twice (or maybe 3 times) as high diameter than the driving rotor has. Of course you decide.

Thanks for the measurements, the "top out" means that the run cap has discharged (in one example) from 0.9V to 0.253V while the test cap was charged up to just 0.253V during the same time, correct? If not, please explain.  Also, try to check with the full wave voltage doubler whether you get similar output voltage on the second 1000uF?

Gyula
   
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@All -
Today will see tests with the doubler circuit and, variants with different components.
The best results managed with 1 'dancing' coil as energy pickup will allow furthering, or, dropping of those as the pickup coils.
It would be preferable, for any future replications at least, to use the 1 coil type throughout.

@Gyula - If this were an indie films forum, you'd be technical director..thanks so much again :)
I have 2 capacitance meters, or should say, DMM's with capacitor measuring function.
Craftsman 82139 - bought new from Sears, simply quit with an unknown issue (not internal fuse) shortly afterward. Sears has shut down !
UNI-T UT136B - a few months old, limited to 10nF to 100uF testing.
 
For a couple of years, there  was a solar powered rotor spinning under my workbench light. Was a converted 'dancing flower' in essence. Same look to it as this new motor, but just the 1 coil, it used the circuit from the toy and a garden light solar panel.
That was where the remote rotors were mainly researched, for how many could be run and how good the lock to each other could be. The link to your comment, was that the rotor only had 2 magnets, with transistors for balancing on the other 2 points. Looked funky spinning around :)

Want a quick mind messer upper ? lol. Here is a demo of remote rotors turning in the same direction ! no need for clockwise/anti-clockwise/clockwise.

[youtube]xZYHjniV5VY[/youtube]


Back to now, I was delighted to see a 1hr run on the 0.1F with or without the remote rotor.
What that means (to me), is that the concept is more valid, for adding remote rotors until energy generated is more than that used. But would have to be aircore. Plus, of course, spinning up and matching 4 or 5 remote rotors would become a P.I.T.A. very quickly !

Yep. the 'top out' was an interest for what the present idea can achieve as a maximum figure (with meter drain) of a 1000uF cap. Just initial findings and exploring. The 'top out' is achieved and maintained well, dropping as rotor speed diminished. So one thought is what speed the rotor needs to spin at to achieve a set criteria. Still thinking 1V is optimum.
100mV is generated very quickly in comparison to the final 'top out' and that is where I think things are headed.
Am relatively new to BEAM engines, but have had great results with especially the Easter and now with a 2 transistor variant. That's my working idea for cap dumping.
The TI range of chips haven't been forgotten about and may well feature, for improvements if something looks promising.

The summary -
2 remote rotors, with 4 'dancing' coils around each in series
Voltage doubler circuits on both
Out to a BEAM harvester triggering at ~1.6V, or lower would be better
Into the run cap, which is likely to be 1000uF or similar, depending on needed throughput and charge. Supercap may be better.
If the voltage on the run cap climbs, an LED bleed off of the extra will form a crude regulator, but allow the motor to have a function, however slight that may be.
(better solutions, such as the TI chips will then move it forward)
 


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Mark: "Back to now, I was delighted to see a 1hr run on the 0.1F with or without the remote rotor."

Most of the energy is evidently consumed in the coils; not in turning the rotors.

It would be good to get our hands on some very low-leakage caps in the 0.01-0.1F range (or so) - does anyone have suggestions? 
   

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Mark: "Back to now, I was delighted to see a 1hr run on the 0.1F with or without the remote rotor."

Most of the energy is evidently consumed in the coils; not in turning the rotors.

It would be good to get our hands on some very low-leakage caps in the 0.01-0.1F range (or so) - does anyone have suggestions? 

Tantalum caps come to mind ;)

@ Mark

The two spinning the same direction is very strange, the magnets are all south or all north, are they not?

regards

Mike 8)


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