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I'll look at the pots when the weather warms a bit, back down to 42F in the house and completely the opposite to your weather Brad :)
Took it apart a year or so back and resoldered a couple of loose pot connections at that time. I think whoever had it pressed the rotary controls with a heavy handed action, rather than gently turned them. Sort of grabbed things, like they would a heater control in a truck !

Thanks Steve. Yes, am delighted to have seen it doing something, anything lol


Btw, here's the non working wound coil for the Top Secret.
Idea was to increase Base resistance with the pot because of the low ohms on the 30AWG.
The low volume warbles have been very informative, for what is going on with magnet interactions.


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Good stuff, Mark.  O0

I went over to OU, sure enough some old threads on somewhat related tries -- BUT without the push-coil/pick-up coil such as we're using!
 
http://overunity.com/8568/new-magnet-powered-perpetual-motion-machine/105/#.VMu9oVWJOuY

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Re: New magnet powered perpetual motion machine
« Reply #72 on: January 13, 2010, 09:51:01 AM »
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This is great news! I consider Finsrud has been confirmed! It seems that this George Delk from the US has confirmed Reidar Finsrud with the perpetual motion of a pendulum managed with magnets. I will try to replicate this thing to make sure that this is no make-belief. It is inspiring because I always thought that free energy is time energy. Now we have a kind of pendulum clock thing that really runs on time energy and not on batteries, a lifted weight or a wound spring! At present I am at IPMM version 12 where I try to use a clocklike mechanism to run my cakra disc. As yet I have failed with the IPMM to find PM, but this pendulum might do the trick. Looks real enough to me. The question is, if the pendulum works as shown, can it do work then like running a rotor? Is this the replicable PM version we were looking for? We will see...


See my analysis on Finsrud:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q
The peswiki thread on this:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Perpetual_Magnetic_Pendulum_by_George_Delk
IPMM-thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4449.new.html#new
Finsrud overunity discussion:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.0;wap2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.45
George Delk Discussion group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Delk_MP/
Delk's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZjNbjhxgt4

Five years ago!  
A vid towards the end of the thread is fun (note the assistant):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2QsWr5r7PM
« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 18:15:59 by PhysicsProf »
   
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Steve - On looking at your formula yesterday, I wondered what the example 2 seconds total time would mean for string length. Found a bobbin of cotton and then superglued a ceramic magnet to the cotton end. By timing with the seconds ticking on a clock, it was found that the length would need to be 26".


Hmmm...  should be 1 meter = 39" for a Period P of 2 seconds...

One has to be careful here, because the period changes slowly with length L, that is, as the square root of L.

Quote
Note that the period of the motion T is simply:
P = 2*pi*sqrt{L/g}
plugging in 9.81m/sec^2 for g, we find to a good approximation:

P = 2*sqrt(L) in SI units.
 So if L=1m, then the period is
P = 2 seconds, since sqrt(1) is just 1.

If L=25cm = 1/4 m, then
P = 2*sqrt(1/4) = 1 second.

So for 26", I get 26"/39" = 0.67 m ,
P = 2*sqrt (0.67) = 1.63seconds.

To get accuracy at this level, one has to count a number of cycles of the pendulum swing, say 30 cycles.

In this video, the students count 30 complete swings of the pendulum, and get the period as the time for 30 swings divided by 30.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-CUDWndI74

Sure enough, for a 100cm = 1m string length, they find 60seconds/30 = 2 seconds for the period (as noted above).
IOW, 2 seconds for one complete out-and-back swing means a string length of 1 meter = 39 inches (actually 39.37" = 1m).
   

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Dear Steve.

I concur. My 250 year old Grandfather clock has a 1 Metre pendulum bob. Accuracy < 15 seconds per week !!

Not quite Quartz but good enough !  ;)

Cheers Graham.


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Oh I stood there like a fool for about half an hour trying out different cotton lengths.
The impression was that a longer length of string was needed than originally thought, having seen pendulums here and there.
Measuring was inexact, approximating the 26" with the 4ft ruler and then thinking that a system would likely need to be much larger than thought.
Also, i'm old skool English and work in feet and inches. If of newer thinking i'd have probably gone for 1 meter by default haha

Fave bet at the moment is with the EZ Spin and remote rotors. This other method though has the attraction of gravity (as it were) and natural null points.
Hmmm...I wonder about a sideways EZ Spin. A vertical wheel motor could use both concepts and yet not be a regular pulse motor. If a couple of these little pieces of sapphire can be held correctly then that would be a good idea.


Have just wound a 1000 + 1000 turn coil of 40AWG around a steel bolt. It was quite the shock to see how thin the resulting coil is !
But, i'll try it, see what happens with the Top Secret and if it does something then try it on the pendulum.
That's a water bottle cap on the right, for scale. They make good end pieces and I left 1 of them intact, to put the transistor and connections inside neatly.



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  Amazingly small coil for 1000+1000 turns!  that must have been a very tedious wind, my friend.

 I'm still very curious about the Top Secret -- how does the coil inside give a "kick" to cause the top to spin?  Push and pull, like with a pendulum I can understand -- but spinning a top?

 And now I'm curious how much current is drawn from the battery also... 
   
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It reads as 49ohms for the inner 1000, 98ohms for the outer.
Nothing happened with it either when tried out haha, ah well.
If I combine the 2 windings together and wind a 3rd winding of 1000 as the new second coil, then it will approximate the 157ohms (or so) that Brad measured on his dolphin coil. Both would then be ballpark for running at the correct ohmage.
Tedious indeed and the wish was to avoid that...so i'll try the 2 'dancing' coils next and probably get back to the winding afterward.

The kick is given by the magnet being axial. It's N at one horizontal side, S on the other, rather than top and bottom.
With the nub being in the middle of the concave surface that it sits on, the top can spin next to the coil, but never goes right over it. Such that, any interaction with the coil will cause the spin.
It relates to the merry-go-round thought yesterday, in that to spin up one of those playground rides a person pushes the side framing in the direction of travel.

Will take a measurement of the factory coil running the Top Secret and report back :)
.
.
It uses zero until the magnet comes close to the nub raised area in the middle and then uses up to 9mA while kicking it back out again with extra speed. The usage depends on the rotation speed, with 9mA being the peak recorded after several minutes of running. Meter used was a UNI-T 136B.
I wonder, that seems very similar to the pendulum results, but far different to Brads reading for the dolphin. However, it would be in line if his gear records an average (?).

« Last Edit: 2015-01-30, 22:42:46 by Slider2732 »


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Wow....Slider, I get the shakes just looking at that coil........whew....glad I didn't have to wind it.   :o

James
   
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Haha :)
Y'know, I used to like nothing better than winding a pills bottle sized Tesla coil with ~1000 winds of this stuff, around midnight, listening to the radio. 4 hours of painstaking individual turns.
I do see why drills and fancy jigs are used by many !


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Lidmotor has posted a fascinating video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=85114404&x-yt-ts=1422579428&v=RvMpe23owQs
Within which he shows the 1970's Patent, his own EZ Spin developments and the rejigging of a Top Secret to be a pulse motor.
Also found out that he's been following along here :)

It would seem that I may have an easier time of building a decent coil for the pendulum than thought.
My Top Secret has 6 wires, Lidmotor's has 3. Could it really be that mine is simply double stranded for the coils ?
That would go a long way to finding out why I had trouble replicating a while back, was over thinking it.


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Cool Joule (Patrick) has weighed in with a great demonstration of his pendulum circuit:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RTtgVKRSxnM

Within which he discusses his different type of pendulum, though it has the same exact circuit again.
He runs a pulse motor with the coil and takes some measurements of current used and ability to charge a cap from various points on the circuit. Interestingly, his pulse motor draws in the uA range when running at 6V !


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OOOHHHhhhhh
here I have to pull the Knife from TinMans Back....
this Guy took TinMans cool Joule Circuit Name WITHOUT PERMISSION..and made himself Cool Joule on you tube, Poor taste VERY Poor....
   
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I don't think Patrick ever said what happened there, but the funny thing is, we in the groups know the Cool Joule as TinMans circuit. So, in essence, Patrick is an Australian circuit..is that the idea ? lol

smh (posted that acronym for Grumage, from his thread)



A pic is attached Chet, of the setup I was talking about on the phone.
An initially silly idea, but very much being considered now.
What it is, is the hyper efficient Top Secret coil, spinning the larger EZ Spin type setup, which charges the 0.1F capacitor. Removing the coil then allows the motor to spin along on what went into the cap.

With Patrick showing 4uA or some unreasonably similar excellent current usage on his same circuit for his pendulum, we may just be able to link everything up ! I believe the current figure may well be correct, the meter is subtracting the returning coil energy and what it sees is a net draw of those low microamps. Relates to TinMan's own readings...my readings must be a few decimal places short of a full toolbox.

So - here's the plan.
The Top Secret coil powers a rotor, which has pickup coils around it. That generates and passes charge to a much smaller cap. That cap charges up and converted via a blocking oscillator type circuit (or one of Gyula's chips) to the run voltage and goes back into the battery. The run voltage may be 6V, 9V, whatever hits a sweet spot of RPM/input/harvested output.
Additionally, remote rotors run from the magnetic fields otherwise wasted as the rotor spins and their pickup coils also feed into the feedback system
Nothing has an electrical dependency on any other section.




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I don't think Patrick ever said what happened there, but the funny thing is, we in the groups know the Cool Joule as TinMans circuit. So, in essence, Patrick is an Australian circuit..is that the idea ? lol

smh (posted that acronym for Grumage, from his thread)

With Patrick showing 4uA or some unreasonably similar excellent current usage on his same circuit for his pendulum, we may just be able to link everything up ! I believe the current figure may well be correct, the meter is subtracting the returning coil energy and what it sees is a net draw of those low microamps. Relates to TinMan's own readings...my readings must be a few decimal places short of a full toolbox.

Yes,the DMM will be averaging current draw,so it is showing the I/in - I/out. Now I'm starting to see why a 9 volt may indeed run this for years on end.

Half way done with my experimental magnet bouncer.


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Here we have the EZ Dancer.

A continuation of thoughts, about integrating several different ideas, in the simplest way.
It would also seem that this thread has taken over from the original EZ based thread.

The concept, is to use 'dancing' coils, EZ Spin arrangement of rotor, reed switch, but powered externally.
The EZ Spin does its generating from the other 7 of 8 coils, which are series connected.
Linked to the rotor are remote rotors, each generating in the same way.
Effectively, perhaps 4x EZ Spin setups, with just 1 being powered.

The Top Secret/dolphin coil may result in the most power efficient method to run the device.
Here, though, an original 'dancing' circuit is used, powered by the CFL table light.
Output from the remote rotor is way down, because it has only 2 magnets and is spinning at approx 100RPM, because it is too far from the powered rotor.
However, the output is a very healthy ~355mV and 40uA.
It can be imagined that with a much faster speed developed on the remote rotor(s) that a good increase can be expected.
A simple diode and run storage cap complete the looping picture.


[youtube]yg0m04dnzTE[/youtube]



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  You're certainly right about the EZ spin and Pendulum discussions overlapping, Mark!  glad you're looking at both.

Below is the Andrews 1972 circuit, which Lidmotor calls the "super simple circuit".  SSC
1.  SSC used in both the Dolphin Pendulum and the Top Secret spinner -- correct?

2.  It looks like the coil is tapped around the mid-point -- is that correct?  why would he do that?

3.  How does the pendulum "kick back" energy to the battery with this SSC?  I don't see how that works.

4.  Is the SSC more efficient than the EZ spin circuit?
   
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Below is Andrews' Fig 11 -- a variant on SSC with two transistors.

What device is this?  I like the core connecting the two separate coils... starting to look like magnetic-pulse delay, at least one could think of doing that...

Also, where to find Andrews' patent like Lidmotor did?

PS -- I think Lidmotor gave a nice compliment to Slider and also Tinman... O0
   
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The Patent is on the previous page Steve, though was wrapped in a long-ish post.
Here's the direct link: http://www.freepatentsonline.com/3783550.pdf

1. Yep, the same configuration of circuit is used in both the dolphin pendulum and the Top Secret.
2. About 1/4 of the turns is the point at which the coil is tapped. The transistor is connected backwards to many popular circuits, in that the Emitter is driving the coil with pulses. The Collector is connected to the Negative of the power supply. The rest of the winding is picking up through induction and supplying the Base of the transistor.
What we have, is a system which only needs the induction to occur, for the transistor to switch on and the coil to energize. The speed of the magnetic interaction governs the speed of transistor switching.
With such high ohm coils, there is no need for a resistor in the circuit.
3. When the transistor fires it energizes the section of coil connected to the Emitter of the transistor and battery Positive. After firing, that section of coil collapses and the returning energy is sent through the transistor back to the battery. Not 100% on this, but I believe it can do so by using the inbuilt Emitter/Base diode.  
4. The EZ Spin can run on mV, the Top Secret or dolphins use 9V generally but will run with lower voltages. Horses for courses really...both are excellent power misers. There will be less charging ability within the EZ Spin setup, yet it needs less to run.
If at the end of the day we are looking at rotor speed, then the EZ Spin needs less generated power.

Fig11 -
What we seem to have there is a circuit for a N/S/N/S rotor, that can drive another motor or other connected device.
In the wiring of the coils, the lower ends are connected together, reversing the coil polarity. Such that, a North and a South magnet can both be used on the rotor.


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A general idea for a working device....
4 rotors, 1 powered

[youtube]tupghE3S3gI[/youtube]



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  You're certainly right about the EZ spin and Pendulum discussions overlapping, Mark!  glad you're looking at both.

Below is the Andrews 1972 circuit, which Lidmotor calls the "super simple circuit".  SSC
1.  SSC used in both the Dolphin Pendulum and the Top Secret spinner -- correct?

2.  It looks like the coil is tapped around the midpoint -- is that correct?  why would he do that?

3.  How does the pendulum "kick back" energy to the battery with this SSC?  I don't see how that works.

4.  Is the SSC more efficient than the EZ spin circuit?
Are we sure this circuit is correct?-a single coil with a center tap that is attached to the emitter? I'm guessing this is whats called an emitter folloer circuit?.


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Dear all.

Just a couple of penneth, might the trigger coil be wound in the other direction to that of the drive coil ? This would then stop the main coil from being continuously active by virtue of the magnetic field generated by it. As I see it the passing magnet just provides enough base bias to switch the transistor on and off as a single pulse. But if the polarity were changed then once the main coil was energised it would keep on oscillating.

Have I made that understandable ?? I know what I wanted to say !!  ;)  :)

Cheers Grum.


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Haha, no I know what you mean  O0
That's a great observation, because that's what i'm finding !
Another coil was wound and tried yesterday. It switched on and then the spinning top (Top Secret device) simply slowed fast and stuck to the plastic lid. Moving the top, it kept wanting to stick in the middle of the lid...it was fully switched on all the time.

If one is oppositely wound it would still induct, but not present that trouble of a permanent switch on, if i read you right ? :)


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Yep. nano scale and cheaply built, that's me  ;D
Most is due to salvaging pretty much anything if possible. For example, last night saw the destruction of a 4.3Gb hard drive for the magnets and a rotor for a CD to go on. That will be used to test wind coils to Grumages idea. Hopefully the motor spins and then a pendulum works and the Top Secret spinning device works with the same coil.

22400 turns  :D
If my wife ever intends to read War and Peace out loud to me sometime then i'll wind that coil. She always says I don't read enough nowadays...well, besides datasheets.



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Ah good, because the 550ohms will be similar to the 'dancing' types from the cheap solar toys  O0
They are between ~470ohms and 520ohms ready wound. Microscopic wire that should probably be measured in nano-meters, or 'half the thickness of a Minnesotan mountain goat hair'.


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Hehe not in Minnesota dear sir, the land is almost completely flat ;)

Was a long standing joke about the terrain with the inlaws, when I moved to the USA from England.
I believe the TV show 'Happy Days' had a scene where an aircraft was reported to have crashed into the Minnesota mountains, on the way from Milwaukee...there are none !


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