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Author Topic: Energy from the Ground - Self powered generator by Barbosa and Leal - Clarence  (Read 60609 times)

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Tinman, why stop the device ? I think you should have used a battery in good condition, but increase the load if you want. I've had an oldish gell cell battery that increased in voltage after use because of sulfation. Suchayo made a video of the effect of a battery seemingly low in voltage "come to life after a short use', he loaded the battery with a small filament bulb and at first the battery voltage dropped and the light was dim but after some time maybe 30 seconds the battery voltage jumped up to over 12 volts and the light was brilliantly bright. After disconnection I think the battery voltage remained higher.

Why not let it run for some days ?

A sulfated battery can hold significant energy that can be "locked up" in the sulfation, then unlocked with some load. I'll try to find the Sucahyo video again.

I think it was that effect that Turion has seen with his 3BGS....BS.

My next action would be to use a good battery and measure the in to out at the battery.

..
   

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Tinman, why stop the device ? I think you should have used a battery in good condition, but increase the load if you want. I've had an oldish gell cell battery that increased in voltage after use because of sulfation. Suchayo made a video of the effect of a battery seemingly low in voltage "come to life after a short use', he loaded the battery with a small filament bulb and at first the battery voltage dropped and the light was dim but after some time maybe 30 seconds the battery voltage jumped up to over 12 volts and the light was brilliantly bright. After disconnection I think the battery voltage remained higher.

Why not let it run for some days ?

A sulfated battery can hold significant energy that can be "locked up" in the sulfation, then unlocked with some load. I'll try to find the Sucahyo video again.

I think it was that effect that Turion has seen with his 3BGS....BS.

My next action would be to use a good battery and measure the in to out at the battery.

..

My thoughts exactly.. batteries are tricky things.. been here before..

There was a guy a few years back doing this and claimed he could charge his kids go kart over and over again, cannot remember the details which is why I cannot find them to post.  :(

Progress is being made in this thread in some respects though so I am quite happy at this point with the way the project is progressing. Thanks to Tinman for taking the time to look into it!  O0

Lot's of facts and measurements and tests and then analyse the results and draw conclusions. Then repeat.. ad nauseum until you are sure you had what you thought you had before the facts and measurements and tests began..


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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Tinman: Can't resist this comment:


YOU WAIT YEARS FOR AN OU DEVICE, THEN TWO TURN UP ON THE SAME DAY!

Typical buses. lol


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VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   

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@ Duncan and Tinman,

I have a couple questions for you if I may,

 1) What happens to the phase difference after the AC is FWR and fed to the battery which is very similar to a capacitor?
 2) How can you have resonance with DC, what is resonating with the battery which is an AC condition?


---------------------------
"Whatever our resources of primary energy may be in the future, we must, to be rational, obtain it without consumption of any material"  Nicola Tesla

"When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."  Edmund Burke
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Ah man-15 minutes of typing gone again >:(

Brad,

May I suggest if it is possible for you, try typing up your response in wordpad or notepad, then when ready paste it into the forum reply. If it fails, you still have a copy on your computer. I do this when making lengthy replies, as I've learned over the years this is a good practice.
   

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Brad,

May I suggest if it is possible for you, try typing up your response in wordpad or notepad, then when ready paste it into the forum reply. If it fails, you still have a copy on your computer. I do this when making lengthy replies, as I've learned over the years this is a good practice.

This is what I do because of the same problems you have experienced Brad. I also have a mouse with thumb buttons that allow you to browse web pages back and forward by clicking rather than using the arrows on the browser, this can be incredibly frustrating when you accidentally click the back button on the mouse after having completed a long post draft.. In my case it is not always the technology I can blame  :-[


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Brad,

May I suggest if it is possible for you, try typing up your response in wordpad or notepad, then when ready paste it into the forum reply. If it fails, you still have a copy on your computer. I do this when making lengthy replies, as I've learned over the years this is a good practice.
What i do now is right click on the mouse,copy,and if my reply dosnt go through,i just reply again and right click ,paste O0.
It seems that if some one has made a reply while im typing,is when it dosnt go through. I actually have to scroll back down,and push the post button again.
All sorted now.
   
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My thoughts exactly.. batteries are tricky things.. been here before..

There was a guy a few years back doing this and claimed he could charge his kids go kart over and over again, cannot remember the details which is why I cannot find them to post.  :(

Progress is being made in this thread in some respects though so I am quite happy at this point with the way the project is progressing. Thanks to Tinman for taking the time to look into it!  O0

Lot's of facts and measurements and tests and then analyse the results and draw conclusions. Then repeat.. ad nauseum until you are sure you had what you thought you had before the facts and measurements and tests began..

EA and Farmhand.
As you may or may not know,i9 am well aware of the battery effect. I have made several video's about this effect-even a rise in temperature will cause the battery voltage to rise.

But this is different,and i believe that this sweet spot that Duncan is talking about is around 9.1-9.2 volts on this battery im using. I can fully charge it(it dose hold some charge-just capacity is down),and the voltage will drop to that 9.1 volts after some time when the load is connected. I then done a deep drain on the battery down to 7 volt's,and let sit for 1/2 hour. It settled at 7.4 volts. When hooking back up to this charger,it slowly rises to that 9.1 volts and stays there-for 2 hours so far :o. Were talking 12 watts of power being drawn from the battery,and yet only the same .3 watts shown on the watt meter and the scope also remains unchanged-the watt meter and scope are simply not seeing this load-regardless of what the battery is doing.

So i will make this as clear as i can.
.3 watt increase on the watt meter when circuit is connected,and no load on the battery .28 watts measured coming from circuit ,going to battery. This leaves .02 watts being dissipated by the 1 ohm CVR and FWBR diode's-->this part adds up. BUT,when the 13 watt load is connected,there is absolutely no change in either the watt meter(including power factor),or the scope. The watt meter may be fooled by reactive power measurements(but seem very consistant),but the scope cannot be fooled.

I have to drive up to our capital today to pick up the son in-law from the airport,but i will leave the device running while I'm gone,and see how things look when i get back in around 8 hours.

Cheers guys. O0
   

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OK Tinman, I hear ya, if you can't find an explanation soon then I will try to make a replication as close to your specs as I can, as time allows, never look a gift horse in the mouth I say, unless it's made of wood.  ;) I've got a couple of old and abused gell cells to use.

..
   
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tinman Losing posts ! So much writing wiped out … annoying  to say the least ! I'm not saying 'do this' but I do .. because writing is very  difficult for me . Bring up your scribbling  software be it MS word, open office or whatever and write your post on it. If you have pictures or links include the links.
With a little space.
Work with the word processor until your happy with what you write and want to show. Save your work regularly , When you are finished simply copy and paste to the OUR dialog box.
Wherever the links or pictures might be simply highlight them and click the icon .
Preview of course & if your happy send it !
If that should fail or as sometimes happens when the OUR dialog box freaks out your are only a click or two from putting every thing right and rubbing it better. It might seem the obvious way to go but people seem to have an absolute determination to miss the blatantly obvious and then snap and growl when someone points it out to save frustration. Get into the habit above and you probably won't lose anymore posts .I also find that some times (not always) it stops me writing something rash and silly. There are things that are obvious to you I cant see for instance how to get a youtube link onto the post with the screen .. Its not essential and like everyone else I don't like looking even more stupid is absolutely necessary so I have never asked
That's a bit long winded for something simple, It what I do  hope it helps and saves frustration
Kind regards Duncan



---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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Buy me some coffee
tinman Losing posts ! So much writing wiped out … annoying  to say the least ! I'm not saying 'do this' but I do .. because writing is very  difficult for me . Bring up your scribbling  software be it MS word, open office or whatever and write your post on it. If you have pictures or links include the links.
With a little space.
Work with the word processor until your happy with what you write and want to show. Save your work regularly , When you are finished simply copy and paste to the OUR dialog box.
Wherever the links or pictures might be simply highlight them and click the icon .
Preview of course & if your happy send it !
If that should fail or as sometimes happens when the OUR dialog box freaks out your are only a click or two from putting every thing right and rubbing it better. It might seem the obvious way to go but people seem to have an absolute determination to miss the blatantly obvious and then snap and growl when someone points it out to save frustration. Get into the habit above and you probably won't lose anymore posts .I also find that some times (not always) it stops me writing something rash and silly. There are things that are obvious to you I cant see for instance how to get a youtube link onto the post with the screen .. Its not essential and like everyone else I don't like looking even more stupid is absolutely necessary so I have never asked
That's a bit long winded for something simple, It what I do  hope it helps and saves frustration
Kind regards Duncan


Cheers Duncan-i got it sorted now.

Anyway,i not long got back,and the system has been running for around six hours straight now,and the battery voltage has not dropped-->this is while running the 13 watt load. The watt meter is still only reading a .3 watt increase,and the scope values remain the same--Nothing has changed in over 5 hours :o
Man i wish i had a variac,so as i could get rid of the big beefy transformer-->I'm just not keen on doing this at mains voltages after my electrical shock some months ago :-[

So next I'm going to move the CVR on the output side of the FWBR,and take some readings there as well. I do have a plan to see what the battery is doing in way of magnetic field's,and that will be done today as well. I will post a video ASAP once these test are done.

At this point in time ,i feel as though i owe Duncan an apology,as it would seem at this stage that i CANNOT measure this power source with the equipment i have-->but i have a few more ways to try yet.
So Duncan-i formally apologise.

Brad
   

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So won't it work with a good battery ? Or have you not tried that yet ?

..

EDIT: I see your measurement details and I might try to make a drawing tonight to see if I get your drift.

Edit 2: I see the recent video link is for a different video. Any chance of naming the video's so we know which link is for which video ?

Cheers.

..
   
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So won't it work with a good battery ? Or have you not tried that yet ?

..

EDIT: I see your measurement details and I might try to make a drawing tonight to see if I get your drift.

..
I will draw up the circuit and component values right now,and post it here.
   
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here is my current test setup. I forgot to put in the watt meter which of course is before the transformer.
   
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There is no need for apologies official or otherwise from anyone much I was invited into this family that is a forum , families argue thratch squabble and fight and bugger off sometimes.. its what they do ! Its a bit painful and it hurts sometimes but would you have it any other way?.
Its bigger than that anyway! Even the opposition are family, they are human beings too ! (ish)
I am pleased that so far its as predicted. There are a lot more horses in the stable that need a gallop!
Press on with your measurist activity I know it has to be done … the sooner the better
Kind Regards Duncan
« Last Edit: 2015-04-10, 11:56:43 by Duncan »


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   
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Without wanting to suggest I know best I want what you are doing to be a success and without trying to explain exactly why … not because I don’t want to but because its extremely difficult .. (I am trying) , I offer these suggestions for you and just a rough outline of why .
As pointed out by tinman ,dollard and me the very action of a transformer is totally unknown like a lot of things we cling to what we think should happen ! The shorted turn TK spoke of .. its classic teaching , good as far as it goes except we know for certain it isn't right. Its been cobbled together to look right. Its been stitched together so it seems like energy comes from a generator.
So your watt meter where should it be ? The generator ? Your house meter ? Substation ? The low voltage side of that transformer is much  more preferable.
Farmhand ponders on using a good battery … my knowledge of chemistry is woeful but I have come to regard lead acid batteries as being in various stages of crystallisation a nice healthy battery not much. A sulphated battery loads and loads of lovely crystals .
Make them resonate and they produce energy . It is not .. but it is very close to piezo – electric
but of course in a different dimention just as the electro magnetic wave is in a different dimention to volts and amps . Which is why you cannot measure it..
The energy is manifesting itself instantaneously in the crystal structure . The primary source ? magnetic current from the ground probably known to you as VARs .. hence the earth rods! help greatly . But its magnetic current It will go through anything . even Granit hey Grummage
kind regards Duncan
 


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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EA and Farmhand.
As you may or may not know,i9 am well aware of the battery effect. I have made several video's about this effect-even a rise in temperature will cause the battery voltage to rise.

But this is different,and i believe that this sweet spot that Duncan is talking about is around 9.1-9.2 volts on this battery im using. I can fully charge it(it dose hold some charge-just capacity is down),and the voltage will drop to that 9.1 volts after some time when the load is connected. I then done a deep drain on the battery down to 7 volt's,and let sit for 1/2 hour. It settled at 7.4 volts. When hooking back up to this charger,it slowly rises to that 9.1 volts and stays there-for 2 hours so far :o. Were talking 12 watts of power being drawn from the battery,and yet only the same .3 watts shown on the watt meter and the scope also remains unchanged-the watt meter and scope are simply not seeing this load-regardless of what the battery is doing.

So i will make this as clear as i can.
.3 watt increase on the watt meter when circuit is connected,and no load on the battery .28 watts measured coming from circuit ,going to battery. This leaves .02 watts being dissipated by the 1 ohm CVR and FWBR diode's-->this part adds up. BUT,when the 13 watt load is connected,there is absolutely no change in either the watt meter(including power factor),or the scope. The watt meter may be fooled by reactive power measurements(but seem very consistant),but the scope cannot be fooled.

I have to drive up to our capital today to pick up the son in-law from the airport,but i will leave the device running while I'm gone,and see how things look when i get back in around 8 hours.

Cheers guys. O0

Hi Tinman,

I know your well aware of the battery effect Farmhand and myself mentioned, the comment was primarily for the public reading this thread. Forewarned is forearmed and if the public has this knowledge widely disseminated and understood it will help prevent scams and a waste of everyone's time when it pops up next.

Here is an interesting link on battery plate surface charge / discharge phenomena:

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/surf_chg.html

You are using a lead acid battery correct ? I cannot find if you said this or not ?? If you are using a lead acid and Farmhand chooses to replicate also using a Gel cell that will be an interesting comparison.

I would also at this stage be interested to see what happens with a larger load, if you have a load that is double your current 12 Watts that would be interesting data to see.

I would like to congratulate Duncan on having the balls to actually offer up his presumed COP>1 system to be tested by accurate measurement, if the apparent anomaly persists I am sure many more will begin testing and analysing the results looking for the explanation. If none can be found after everything imaginable has been tried then the anomaly, if shown to be able to do work beyond the energy it has available to do that work, may be a breakthrough.


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Below is a couple of scope shots on one of the test i have carried out so far. The first thing i noted was the 100mV difference across the 3 ohm resistor on the rectified output side. Due to the now 6 ohm resistance in the circuit before the battery,i have had to raise the UF cap value to 24uF. Seems for every ohm resistance in the circuit,you need to add another 4uf of capacitance.
The voltage in the battery dose drop and settel at around 7.4 volts with this added resistance in the system. It seems that we are still dissipating 10 watts of power through the globe,but the 1 watt 3 ohm resistors remain cold-->cold as the work bench top. How we can put 10 watts of power through a 1 watt resistor and not have it get at least a little warm-im not sure?. ???

The transformer temperature remains a constant 52.2*C with or without the circuit in operation. With the extra capacitance,the watt meter now shows an increase of around 1.5 watts when the circuit is connected-->this is due to the voltage and current phase angle decreasing to around 70%. But none the less,the 1.5 watt increase is maintaining the 10 watt load,and has been for the last 4 hours-->the battery voltage has remained constant.

This system seems to show the strongest effect when there is very little resistance in the circuit,as the results showed yesterday before the addition of the extra 5 ohms of resistance.

I am now going to swap the battery out with a heavily sulphated battery of large size. This is to eliminate the possibility that the transformation of sulphide within the battery is not the cause of the !apparent! extra energy. If this next battery shows a stronger effect,then that is something we may have to look into.
   

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Tinman: Do you have a way of running your setup from a battery and inverter?
That would put the test on a higher level.

I'll let other forum members suggest the next step. O0


---------------------------
VAR is just an angle on a scope. Nothing to see here -  move on.
   
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resistance effects the Q factor making sharp resonance curve difficult  (I assumed) .. Its a very difficult point to hold (for me anyway) as the video shows. I think it really needs a control loop.
kind regards Duncan


---------------------------
How many more to be .threatened, abused murdered, Their research in the hands of evil corporations intent on total control ?
http://dnp.s3.amazonaws.com/b/b9/suppressed.pdf
whilst we know little .. friends remember,
In the kingdom of the blind, the one-eyed man is king.
D. Erasmus
   

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Posts: 308
Tinman, I measured "just from memory" and with my Tanked up HF setup coupled to another Ferrite Yolk transformer, about an amp through a small globe rated for 12 v and 3 Watts, Ohms law says that would mean 0.25 amp max, I think. But does it ? The globe being considered a resistive load. But is it ? When I made that measurement it was AC at HF and I measured a phase difference between voltage and current, the calculations told me "again from memory" that the bulb was dissipating less than 3 Watts of power. Not sure if I have a video clip of that, maybe you remember it on OU.com. The bulb was lit pretty good "from memory"

I think the phase difference was real but likely off a bit and I think the current was close too, I think from memory the voltage was about 7 volts AC. I was convinced the bulb was passing current that did not contribute to the power dissipation. After all it was at about 400 kHz and the bulb has some uH inductance. I've got that setup all fitted up with high quality HF CSR's, and will get back to that later.

Anyway, this arrangement looks very simple and I should be able to replicate it close enough, I have two 7 amp hour SLA's with about 20 % or less capacity, and also one that is I think in better condition but is still quite sulfated.

I think I have a multitap E core transformer that steps down to 32 volts, or a higher power rated toroid with dual 12 volt outputs, I have a variac if there is something you want me to specifically try at some voltage, found a High power FWBR, I got plenty of caps ( I found the ammo box full of caps I lost, I'm stoked bout that)  O0.

I've got two different killawatt meters one has a much better resolution for Watts.
..

I only have one missing part that I should have but I cannot find the 21 Watt Auto globe. I had the 5 watt Tail and 21 watt Stop light in one globe type with wires already soldered on it, bit miffed. I'll nip into town in the morning and grab some.

Cheers

Oh P.S. The globe is getting warm isn't it ? I can't see you mention it.
..
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Brad,

Did you ever sort out whether your scope can do power measurements? i.e. can it do multiplication and averaging?

Also, you should be measuring your AC power on the output side of the transformer, not the input, to get a true indication if the circuit uses more power when the load is connected vs. not connected. The fact that your transformer uses 25W of power at idle should have set off warning bells for you. The AC measurement on the input side is rubbish in this case because of that. Take your measurement on the output side of the transformer (AC power) and I am certain you will see where the 13W of power is coming from.

The efficiency of that transformer is fooling you ATM.
   
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Brad,

Did you ever sort out whether your scope can do power measurements? i.e. can it do multiplication and averaging?

Also, you should be measuring your AC power on the output side of the transformer, not the input, to get a true indication if the circuit uses more power when the load is connected vs. not connected. The fact that your transformer uses 25W of power at idle should have set off warning bells for you. The AC measurement on the input side is rubbish in this case because of that. Take your measurement on the output side of the transformer (AC power) and I am certain you will see where the 13W of power is coming from.

The efficiency of that transformer is fooling you ATM.

Im not to worried about the watt meter at this point in time. I have the scope after the transformer,and i dont think i can put that watt meter after the transformer?-or can i?. I have used my DMMs after the transformer,and they gave me the exact same amount as the watt meter showed.

I have not been able to find the scopes power measurement function. I can find the math trace,and where to x ch1 and ch2,but i cant find the value of the two.
   

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Poynt, I think Tinman is measuring the AC voltage across the cap and the secondary and the current is measured after the cap at the output of the transformer, I think the CSR should be on the transformer side of the series cap and the voltage measured across the transformer output as well before the series cap.

I think that's how I would do it, I would probably use two CSR's one on each side of the cap, just to see the difference.

I don't know if I have any 1 Ohm CSR's.

EDIT: had to edit the first line for clarity. sorry.
   
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Tinman, I measured "just from memory" and with my Tanked up HF setup coupled to another Ferrite Yolk transformer, about an amp through a small globe rated for 12 v and 3 Watts, Ohms law says that would mean 0.25 amp max, I think. But does it ? The globe being considered a resistive load. But is it ? When I made that measurement it was AC at HF and I measured a phase difference between voltage and current, the calculations told me "again from memory" that the bulb was dissipating less than 3 Watts of power. Not sure if I have a video clip of that, maybe you remember it on OU.com. The bulb was lit pretty good "from memory"

I think the phase difference was real but likely off a bit and I think the current was close too, I think from memory the voltage was about 7 volts AC. I was convinced the bulb was passing current that did not contribute to the power dissipation. After all it was at about 400 kHz and the bulb has some uH inductance. I've got that setup all fitted up with high quality HF CSR's, and will get back to that later.

Anyway, this arrangement looks very simple and I should be able to replicate it close enough, I have two 7 amp hour SLA's with about 20 % or less capacity, and also one that is I think in better condition but is still quite sulfated.

I think I have a multitap E core transformer that steps down to 32 volts, or a higher power rated toroid with dual 12 volt outputs, I have a variac if there is something you want me to specifically try at some voltage, found a High power FWBR, I got plenty of caps ( I found the ammo box full of caps I lost, I'm stoked bout that)  O0.

I've got two different killawatt meters one has a much better resolution for Watts.
..

I only have one missing part that I should have but I cannot find the 21 Watt Auto globe. I had the 5 watt Tail and 21 watt Stop light in one globe type with wires already soldered on it, bit miffed. I'll nip into town in the morning and grab some.

Cheers

Oh P.S. The globe is getting warm isn't it ? I can't see you mention it.
..

As the globe is running of a pure DC source,then it is VxI=watts. In an AC situation,the globes do have slight inductance due to the coiled filament,but i wouldn't think that would upset anything to much in the way of power measurements. And of course the resistance climbs as the globe gets hotter-more current passed through it.

I really need a variac,as that's one thing that has been missing in my workshop. Will have to wait for the next youtube cheque lol,as I'm not working ATM,and must be a little careful with spending O0
   
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