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Author Topic: Some "New" Observations  (Read 127772 times)

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Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!
« Last Edit: 2017-04-11, 06:45:30 by TinselKoala »


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It's turtles all the way down
Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!

I was going to place neons right on top of the coils, but the resistor / led / neon across the capacitor sounds like a more controlled experiment.

You may not need that much drive with neons if your coil has a high enough Q, as the voltage can build to quite high values in the line.

Now we need to figure out how to get either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line, so that in the process of transferring velocity to electrons, thus dragging electrons in a conductor placed within the line, it develops a DC current flow in the conductor.(or gas tube per the patent). The energy needs to be used up in this process before it reaches the end of the line such that there is no reflected pulse, which would just push the electrons backwards undoing the forward velocity, and no net DC in the target.

A proper termination would prevent reflections possibly at the expense of wasted power if the wave should get to the termination.   See section 2 par 5, thru 15.

Another possibility: the line is formed into a ring with output tied to input and a directional coupler injects the signal. Possibly diode blocking would be enough to keep the pulse going in one preferred direction.

It will be a while before I get back on this but doing things as I am able, (tax filing, 70 1/2 RMD's. complicated!).


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Thanks ION,  just take your time to do things properly.

I was still playing around with this coil, like striking with a probe across the coil length with a very slow time base setting to see the trace "write" the amplitude
of the nodes/anti-nodes when using different resonance frequency settings.

No idea how to get "either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line" so i will be waiting for any ideas to pop up.

Regards Itsu
   

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Now that would be neat. An LED-resistor pair across each capacitor, with the resistor value such that the LEDs would only light at the peaks. By varying frequency you'd see the peaks moving along the length of the line. Maybe it would work without killing the line. If it would work with one LED-resistor pair it might be neat to see one made with LEDs in every position.
With big power from the Heathkit transmitter it might be possible to get NE-2 neons to light up that way instead of LEDs.

EDIT: It works!
Yeah, that is neat...and close to your NE2 avatar.

I was still playing around with this coil, like striking with a probe across the coil length with a very slow time base setting to see the trace "write" the amplitude
of the nodes/anti-nodes when using different resonance frequency settings.
That is a good idea, too.
Once, I also used 74HCT4067 16-ch analog switches to make a visualizer of transmission line's standing waves on a scope. 
74HCT4067 converts the position along the length of a transmission line to the X-axis on the scope, by quickly scanning the switches sequentially with 74HC4520.  The analog switches do the same job as your manual "striking with a probe across the coil length" - just automatically.
That circuit is so obvious that I will not bother looking for its schematic, unless someone wants to play with it.

No idea how to get "either a traveling wave or a series of singular pulses to travel down the line" so i will be waiting for any ideas to pop up.
Slow FM sweep will get the nodes moving on an unterminated line
   

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Once, I also used 74HCT4067 16-ch analog switches to make a visualizer of transmission line's standing waves on a scope. 

I can imagine what kind of display will be the result.

Quote
Slow FM sweep will get the nodes moving on an unterminated line

OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.

Thanks,  itsu
   

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OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.
PM sweep too
   
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It's turtles all the way down
An calculator for standing waves in long lines which may be of interest.

http://gorchilin.com/calculator/longline?L=0.5&Q=175&g=100&g=0&g=33&g=0&g=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0

Maybe someone could translate the controls.


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Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   
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An calculator for standing waves in long lines which may be of interest.

http://gorchilin.com/calculator/longline?L=0.5&Q=175&g=100&g=0&g=33&g=0&g=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0&ph=0

Maybe someone could translate the controls.

ION,

Click on the American flag in the upper right hand corner of the page for an English translation.  The Gorchilin site has some interesting info IMO.

pm
   
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ION,

Click on the American flag in the upper right hand corner of the page for an English translation.  The Gorchilin site has some interesting info IMO.

pm

Hi thanks for the tip. Agreed, I saw the link and patent on OU.com and gave it a read. The patent and his work probably needs close scrutiny and in a topic dedicated to it.

Regards


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Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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Might be interesting reading for those who interested in TPU replication

Quote
Foreword
I would like to present you one of most interesting and mysterious devices I have seen.
Michael (?) (MiMo) was researching and trying replicate Stiven Mark’s TPU.
He used ferrite rings with antialigned fields for creating superstrong electromagnetic fields in local
collector region. These rings have two opposing windings that were “dispersed” in resonance. At
the same time magnetic field was “squized” out from ferrites and form a narrow beam outward.
This beam of very strong field helped run phonon process in the collector. Further acceleration was
performed by coils that were fed from SCRs controlled by PIC MCU.
After experiments with achieving divergent process, his health deteriorated rapidly, so much that he
almost died and was recovering months after the incident. After that he deleted all the posts and
wrote that no one should deal with this topic.
Somewhere in six months people persuaded him to resume this work, and Michael has organized
forum (already located somewhere in Canada). There he organized mainly develop and manufacture
secure test box for TPU with tests on a remote basis using telemetry.
Forum lasted several months and work but stopped supposingly after outbreak of nationalist riots in
Moscow. Michael said that he no longer wants to have anything to do with the Russians. At that his
mission and all work on his TPU version stopped.
In this file collected posts and pictures from different people during replication process which was
coordinated by Michael. Unfortunately the replication was interrupted and we still don’t know exact
construction of his device.

« Last Edit: 2017-04-29, 07:53:47 by Vasik041 »


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Dear Vasik

Back in 2007 I began entertaining the idea that the TPU of SM worked on some type of electro-acoustic anomaly.

I put together some ideas in this document to see what would stick. It is by no means a theory, not even a hypothesis, just  a collection of ideas.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1092.0

I think the Mimo document may be on the right path, but unfortunately like Otto and Roberto Notte's ECD paper, the ideas are good but results are inconclusive.

My main criticism is that the devices of both parties are too complicated. We do not see that level of complexity in the original TPU units of several topologies. SM was also not a microcomputer programmer nor was he knowledgeable in digital design. His basic knowledge was audio amplifiers and early b/w and color TV repair.

SM himself said of his first device : "very simple no mass electronics, just knowledge of the coils and how they are wound".

Second point is, I believe the devices of SM used two types of feedback AC and DC to:
a) automatically track the acceleration increase of the electrons so that further kicks resulted in constant acceleration (AC feedback increasing frequency).

b) part of the DC output was fed back to bootstrap power the oscillator, but with limiting to prevent runaway. Small batteries were used for initial startup.

User Wattsup did an extensive redraw with frame by frame video analysis to produce two drawings which identified the important wires of the FTPU and the LTPU. I took the work of Wattsup and converted it into a partial schematic with black box controller.

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=360.0

So while magnetostriction  and phonon drag may be related to the operating principle, IMO the driving circuit  may have been a simple feedback oscillator that automatically tracked the acoustic oscillation as the frequency increased.

I have no work yet to prove these ideas, but it is high on the list of research projects.

I hope the points in my critique can be appreciated, and this is not to say Mimo's device did not work, only that it may have been overkill for a proof of principle.

Are there any known working replications of Mimo's work that can be demonstrated and reproduced? I would hope that if they exist they could also supply 1kW to a resistive load without connection to a power supply or large battery.

Regards


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Dear ION,

thank you for detailed comments.

My main criticism is that the devices of both parties are too complicated. We do not see that level of complexity in the original TPU units of several topologies. SM was also not a microcomputer programmer nor was he knowledgeable in digital design. His basic knowledge was audio amplifiers and early b/w and color TV repair.
SM himself said of his first device : "very simple no mass electronics, just knowledge of the coils and how they are wound".
I agree, MCU probably overkill here, but it gives possibility easily try different control algorithms...

Assuming device was simple we can try derive a schematic. E.g two audio amplifiers driving two coils wound perpendicularly with 90 degree phase shift to create rotation field, VCO and some feedback circuit to control VCO.
Or even simpler, one amplifier and windings connected like in one phase motor with phase shift capacitor.
However DC part is not clear for me.
And this leads to a question - do you know construction details of that old TV set which exploded ? How windings in deflection system were arranged ? How it different from "modern" (newer models) ?
 
Quote
Are there any known working replications of Mimo's work that can be demonstrated and reproduced? I would hope that if they exist they could also supply 1kW to a resistive load without connection to a power supply or large battery.
As far as I know there are no replications. MiMo never demonstrated working device. He mentioned that output power of first device was about 100W.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-29, 19:14:15 by Vasik041 »


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...two audio amplifiers driving two coils wound perpendicularly with 90 degree phase shift to create rotation field,
Such arrangement will create a Lorentz Fan, because a rotating magnetic field pumps charged particles like a pump by the virtue of Lorentz force / deflection.
The attached photo shows such fan, as used to pump out charged dust particles out of a clean room. The other diagrams depict dual coil arrangements like those in 2-phase AC motor stators.

However DC part is not clear for me.
When charges are pumped unidirectionally, their movement constitutes a direct current.
   
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Yes, a single amplifier with phase shift capacitor would somewhat work for a single frequency, but capacitor would have to be changing as frequency increases.

IMO, With a slightly more advanced quadrature circuit, phase shift could be maintained as frequency increases. The important thing is: frequency must be increasing always accelerating particles to reach critical point where the shock wave is created and phonon drag effect of electrons. Much over that point, ultrasonic heating takes place in the wires, a "problem" SM always had with the TPU. He always monitored temperature and was very concerned about it on the larger units.Would not be a problem for me in winter  ;)

So feedback is automatically tracking the speed around the loop by either electrical or some type of acoustic feedback. SM always said the diameter, hence circumference was critical to the operating frequency and IMO he was not talking about radio wavelength, rather speed of sound through a metallic ring conductor.  ;)

P.S acoustic ring resonators create small gyroscopic effects.



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Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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OK, i will look into this slow FM sweep on an open line.

Thanks,  itsu

I added 12 red leds in series with 10KOhm resistors across each capacitor and tried severall sweeps including PM and FM sweeps.
The visual is nice, but no specific peaks noted.

Feeding the coil from my FG from its beginning and having the end open.
Yellow probe across a middle led, green current probe in the return lead there, purple probe across the open end.

Makes a nice display, see video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_5G-OhoocXI&t=6s

Regards Itsu
   

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@Itsu

According to the patent this should work like a peristaltic pump
Faster sweeps will move nodes/antinodes faster along that pipe and might squeeze along these electrons better, giving you a measurable effect.

P.S.
"Faster" does not mean "wider".
   

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Yes, a single amplifier with phase shift capacitor would somewhat work for a single frequency,
Yes. Also different inductance coils will create a phase shift.  That's why in that photo of the dust fan, these two coils are wound with different number of turns (and a different size of wire).

IMO, With a slightly more advanced quadrature circuit, phase shift could be maintained as frequency increases.
Some of us have 2-ch, phase coherent, function generators that can already do that with a push of a button.
   

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@Itsu

According to the patent this should work like a peristaltic pump
Faster sweeps will move nodes/antinodes faster along that pipe and might squeeze along these electrons better, giving you a measurable effect.

P.S.
"Faster" does not mean "wider".

Right, lowering the sweep time from 10s all the way to 1ms does not show anything special (well, there are lots of noisy signals)
I used the copper tube and a fluorescent lamp both with sine wave and square wave signals.

I will do some further testing with faster sweep times and different settings tomorrow.


Itsu
   
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Right, lowering the sweep time from 10s all the way to 1ms does not show anything special (well, there are lots of noisy signals)
I used the copper tube and a fluorescent lamp both with sine wave and square wave signals.

I will do some further testing with faster sweep times and different settings tomorrow.


Itsu

A suggestion that has been mentioned by ION and I would agree is to terminate the line with a load equal to it's characteristic impedance rather than an open connection.  This way no reflections will impede the forward wave movement which then may create a certain amount of DC to be seen in the collector.  IIRC, Thoneman stated that when the energy conversion is taking place, it doesn't really matter what the termination is as nearly all the energy in the line is transferred to the collector however, he does state that the line should be properly terminated.

Regards,
Pm 
   

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Some considerations which could help (or may be not  :))

Speed of sound in copper is 4600m/sec. Somewhere it was mentioned that TPU operates near 5KHz frequency.
5khz equal to 0.2ms period and so length of collector should be 4600 * 0.2ms = 0.92 m (or multiple of that)
If one use different length frequency can be calculated like 4600/length of collector

If we trying create acoustic shock wave we need sweep starting from some frequency (speed) below 5khz and ending with some higher
e.g. starting 4.5khz and ending with 5.5khz
Sweep should not be too slow and not too fast. I think 50-500hz  is reasonable (corresponds to 100 - 10 field revolutions)

If we assume that "kick" is mechanical effect caused by strong magnetic field in windings interacting with Earth magnetic field may be step down transformers can be used on the amplifiers outputs. E.g. if amplifier provides 10a peak current with 10:1 transformer we can get 100a in windings
and that might be that two transformers seen in the middle of large TPU (pure speculation)

 :)
« Last Edit: 2017-04-30, 08:25:42 by Vasik041 »


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Quote
Such arrangement will create a Lorentz Fan

Quote
When charges are pumped unidirectionally, their movement constitutes a direct current.

Yes, I understand that but it does not match with TPU coils arrangements... at leas at first sight :-\


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Speed of sound in copper is 4600m/sec.
...but in a thin copper rod (or pipe) the extensional speed of sound is around 3800m/sec.

... at least at first sight :-\
At first sight - no.
   

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A suggestion that has been mentioned by ION and I would agree is to terminate the line with a load equal to it's characteristic impedance rather than an open connection.  This way no reflections will impede the forward wave movement which then may create a certain amount of DC to be seen in the collector.  IIRC, Thoneman stated that when the energy conversion is taking place, it doesn't really matter what the termination is as nearly all the energy in the line is transferred to the collector however, he does state that the line should be properly terminated.

Regards,
Pm

i terminated the TL coil with a 77 Ohm (potmeter) resistor which was measured to be the char. impedance and redid the sweepings with a copper tube inside.

A led as load on this copper tube only lights up when there is a scope probe hooked up to the led as well, pointing to some kind of (ground)loop.
Strongest led signal is when sweeping between 21 and 23MHz (with a scope probe across it).

I think i need a stronger signal to input into the TL coil.


Itsu
   
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i terminated the TL coil with a 77 Ohm (potmeter) resistor which was measured to be the char. impedance and redid the sweepings with a copper tube inside.

A led as load on this copper tube only lights up when there is a scope probe hooked up to the led as well, pointing to some kind of (ground)loop.
Strongest led signal is when sweeping between 21 and 23MHz (with a scope probe across it).

I think i need a stronger signal to input into the TL coil.


Itsu

Itsu,

When I ran my tests with my Tline several weeks ago, for the collector I used a length of litz cable made out of 1200 34AWG wires with tabs soldered to the ends.  I then used a length of 12 ga stranded wire with tabs for the outside jumper that bolts to the collector.  I then measured the current thru the jumper to check for any current flow and I found that the position of the collector inside the line and the jumper outside varied the results.  I also determined that the resistance of the collector and outside jumper had to be as low as possible to get the effect seen in the scope pix below.  Also you will see that my line termination is at the input.

I used an Ixys IXDD609PI driver operating at 20 vdc to generate the pulses seen on CH1.  I've also attached a schematic below which requires a little study to understand the current flows but basically, with normal induction the current flow would be the opposite than that seen in the test results IMO.  Does this mean this test shows results that Thoneman predicts?  I dunno!

I would agree that the Tline needs much higher drive levels than what we are applying.  How much higher........?

Pm
   
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I know partzman tried this with AC on the tube, and had null results.

Here is the DC version if anyone is interested or has time.

You could probably light the filament with a decent size NiCd battery of 1.2 Volts(see edit) instead of mains step down transformer.

Start with a high value current limit resistor 100k going down in value until you can get ignition in the tube to hold.

You will definitely need some type of spark igniter to strike the arc in the tube.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Edit: Checked this out this morning and the gas tube ignition works very well. I used an F20T12CW lamp with 120 Volts DC  on the Anode, current limited by a 12K resistor. I did need about 6 Volts DC  to get a visible glow in the filament, but it will work at lower filament voltage once the arc is struck in the tube.

When the arc is struck, the DC voltage across the tube drops to about 70 volts and current is about 3 to 5 mA depending on filament voltage.

When I get time I will work up a table of Anode current vs Anode voltage vs filament voltage, etc. For this particular tube.

I am told that big older flat screen TV's have some very nice long, thin fluorescent tubes.

To strike the arc in the tube, I used a higher voltage power supply 300 to 500VDC with a 0.01 uF 1kV capacitor shunted with a 1 megohm resistor touched briefly to the Anode. The momentary charging current for the capacitor is sufficient to ignite the tube. You could use one of those piezo igniters and that would probably also work.

When I get the big transmitter up and running, I will slip the tube into the TLine and see what gives.

Just be careful, the longer the tube, the higher the Anode voltage and current, the closer you are to producing XRays at the Anode end. I think this is probably only true for highly evacuated tubes,but it would not hurt to put some CRT phosphor at the anode end outside the glass and if it glows you are getting XRay production. Gas tubes will have a lot of ions that will absorb the high speed electrons, so it is questionable how fast the electrons can actually go. Thonemann did use Xenon gas in his patent / experiment.

Be Safe
Regards

An interesting video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32Jg4ooFErE

and here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5-Bco8KRpmU



« Last Edit: 2017-05-01, 19:06:42 by ION »


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