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Author Topic: Half Coil Syndrome (HCS)  (Read 6928 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
So how would i go about making an E field and H field detector that i can hook up to my scope?.
Also,are you saying that if i use an isolation transformer that has no ground,but only a change in polarity,and use that to drive my primary,that i would see something different across my secondary on the scope to that if the primary had a common ground?.

We can get to the design of a combo E, H probe later, for now the question I asked was what would the E field detector see, and what would the H field detector see if the coil were driven differentially.

In this case your probe tip is the E field detector and your MOT coil the H field detector. Scope is considered grounded.

Driven differentially in this case means from an isolating transformer that has a secondary that floats or one that has a center tap that is grounded.

To complicate things, a floating secondary will have a different capacitance value to ground from each end, unless it is specially constructed. This becomes important depending on the test frequency.

(spell check does not like the adverb trying to modify a noun, maybe some English major can correct my spelling error, some call differential an adjective)


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We can get to the design of a combo E, H probe later, for now the question I asked was what would the E field detector see, and what would the H field detector see if the coil were driven differentially.

In this case your probe tip is the E field detector and your MOT coil the H field detector. Scope is considered grounded.

Driven differentially in this case means from an isolating transformer that has a secondary that floats or one that has a center tap that is grounded.

To complicate things, a floating secondary will have a different capacitance value to ground from each end, unless it is specially constructed. This becomes important depending on the test frequency.

(spell check does not like the adverb trying to modify a noun, maybe some English major can correct my spelling error, some call differential an adjective)

OK,so i done the isolation transformer test,where i used an isolation transformer as my P/in to the long primary. Now i see an even E field all along the length of the coil,but when i ground one end of the coil,i now see what wattsup see's,and as expected,the E field drops off the closer we get to the grounded end of the coil.

But in regards to the H field,where i use my MOT secondary as the H field detector,it makes no difference whether the primary coil has a common ground or not-the amplitude is always highest at the center of the coil.

This can only mean that it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the secondary,as it is the H field that creates the E field. Or is it the generated EMF across the secondary is due to the H field alone,and the EMF is what produces the E field?. If we have a stationary permanent magnet which means there is no associated E field,as the is no magnetic field changing with time,and we pass a loop of conducting wire through that stationary field,and EMF is still produced across that loop of wire,but yet there was no E field.

Brad
   
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OK,so i done the isolation transformer test,where i used an isolation transformer as my P/in to the long primary. Now i see an even E field all along the length of the coil,but when i ground one end of the coil,i now see what wattsup see's,and as expected,the E field drops off the closer we get to the grounded end of the coil.

But in regards to the H field,where i use my MOT secondary as the H field detector,it makes no difference whether the primary coil has a common ground or not-the amplitude is always highest at the center of the coil.

This can only mean that it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the secondary,as it is the H field that creates the E field. Or is it the generated EMF across the secondary is due to the H field alone,and the EMF is what produces the E field?. If we have a stationary permanent magnet which means there is no associated E field,as the is no magnetic field changing with time,and we pass a loop of conducting wire through that stationary field,and EMF is still produced across that loop of wire,but yet there was no E field.

Brad

The conclusion you can reach from these tests is that the Half Coil Syndrome is being mistaken as an H field measurement where it is actually an E field measurement, the coil acting as an inductive (and capacitive) divider network for the E field when the scope and one end of the coil share the same ground.

When driven differentially and the coil is not grounded, the E field has an even distribution, as you observed.

The true H field detector, your MOT secondary shows an optimum transfer of magnetic energy at the center with some small reduction at the ends of the long coil, as expected.

Your last question is answered by observing that there is no great diminishing of the transfer of H field along the length of the long coil when one end of the long coil is grounded. If the E field were responsible for the EMF we would see such a large reduction of output in the MOT coil at the grounded end of the long coil, at least equal to the reduction observed of the E field test.

Maybe Smudge could add his point of view to this.


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The conclusion you can reach from these tests is that the Half Coil Syndrome is being mistaken as an H field measurement where it is actually an E field measurement, the coil acting as an inductive (and capacitive) divider network for the E field when the scope and one end of the coil share the same ground.

When driven differentially and the coil is not grounded, the E field has an even distribution, as you observed.

The true H field detector, your MOT secondary shows an optimum transfer of magnetic energy at the center with some small reduction at the ends of the long coil, as expected.



Maybe Smudge could add his point of view to this.

Quote
Your last question is answered by observing that there is no great diminishing of the transfer of H field along the length of the long coil when one end of the long coil is grounded. If the E field were responsible for the EMF we would see such a large reduction of output in the MOT coil at the grounded end of the long coil, at least equal to the reduction observed of the E field test.

This is going to get a thread of it's own(so as not to choke up wattsup thread with a semi unrelated topic,as it will become very interesting i believe.
I had this out with Poynt not so long ago on OU,where as i claimed that it had to be the magnetic field that induced the EMF across the secondary,and Poynt say's that it is the E field that produces the EMF across a secondary. This test seems to show what i believe to be true,but another test platform i had setup seems to show that Poynt is correct,and it is the E field that creates the EMF across the secondary.

Should be a hoot,but also something that is taken seriously ,as we now have two test bed's that can deliver both outcomes,and give different answers<--how can this be?.
I will start to put all the relative info together tomorrow,and get the thread cranking Saturday morning.

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As I said before there are two different E fields.  It is the induced E circular field that creates the voltage across the coil (or to be precise across individual turns of the coil).  There is also the radial E field from any conductor that is not at zero potential.  Illustrated in attached image.  So depending upon what you are sensing these fields with will decide what you actually measure.

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As I said before there are two different E fields.  It is the induced E circular field that creates the voltage across the coil (or to be precise across individual turns of the coil).  There is also the radial E field from any conductor that is not at zero potential.  Illustrated in attached image.  So depending upon what you are sensing these fields with will decide what you actually measure.

Smudge

Smudge.

This is all well and good for the primary,but what field induces an EMF across a secondary?
Where in that diagram you posted will be the strongest part of the E field around the outside of the long inductor?

Brad
   
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Smudge.

This is all well and good for the primary,but what field induces an EMF across a secondary?
Where in that diagram you posted will be the strongest part of the E field around the outside of the long inductor?

Brad

Smudge's drawing shows clearly that the intensity gradient along the long coil for the circular E field bears a close relationship to the H field intensity, while the radial E field shows the reduction to zero intensity at the grounded end and maximum at the opposing end.

Now you might ask what causes what, and I would be inclined to guess that the circular E field causes the H field, but I am not trained in this area so may be entirely wrong.


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@all

I'll keep saying it. Thanks for your comments to all and to @TinMan for your works. Let's please not jump to any conclusions on this because it's not over. Let's keep an open mind and press on.

First off guys I do not have all the answers but I know so far from SC perspective, all this falls in perfectly. I just need to take some time to reflect and do a few small benchies to see things.

Yes @Smudge showed a drawing with thanks and it shows how our guys presently understand this effect but again, my diagram shows it also and explains why HCS is producing the MOT effect, which in my book is a mirage. You cannot beat the tape head test because it does not involve any influences other then what's happening in that wire, at that turn. Since the wire is the one conveying the pulse, it would never be overridden by the core impress itself until it gets to the negative end and this is the only thing we need to know. The rest of it is only a mirage created by core reflections and does not depict the actual turn per turn performance of the pulse which is gradually going down to the zero point of the ground or neutral side.

So here is what I think I need to do to advance this further since I do not have all the answers but know that under this construct, whatever it is will be exposed on its own after calm reflection on the evidence.

I need to find 3 identical straight ferrite cores preferably of useful lengths or ratios of let's say 3", 4.5" and 6" and onto each is wound a coil of 3" in length all starting at one end of the core. Then do the same experiments with the pickups. These three results will say so much more since the first will replicate my tests and the two other identical coils will push the reflection further and further away from the low coil end to the core end thus permitting the coil to gradually show its true colors and better explain the reflection effect that passes off as a full coil. So imagine if Maxwell was exposed to this same phenomena, how did this influence his math. He probably used a compass so how could they even fathom such ideas as the base of the effect. hahaha

Researching proposal:

Is anyone or group able to take on this one crazy task. Span through EE formulae that have some relevancy to these experiments or coupling and flux, especially those that have a value in it of 1/2. List the formulae and define what the 1/2 is doing. Yes sounds crazy but it is only logical to assume that if coils have half of their windings doing basically junk work, and if our formulas were derived by tabulating and plotting empirical data, then there has to be a few of these 1/2's that are related to HCS. It already has to be in our books but it is unnoticed or not drawing the proper attention from the regular EE crowd but that maybe it should for the OU crowd. This one is more or less out of my hands if not for the relational considerations. However, I needed to mention it because this part of the query will be left open for those able to investigate the question far better then me, plus it's really a question of available time.

Back soon.

wattsup



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Smudge's drawing shows clearly that the intensity gradient along the long coil for the circular E field bears a close relationship to the H field intensity, while the radial E field shows the reduction to zero intensity at the grounded end and maximum at the opposing end.

Now you might ask what causes what, and I would be inclined to guess that the circular E field causes the H field, but I am not trained in this area so may be entirely wrong.

Ion
I am not worried about the the E field bringing rise to the H field within and around the primary inductor. What i want to know is what causes the EMF across the secondary-->the MOT secondary i used around the long primary.

Smudges picture tells me that the circular E field is contained within the primary coil,while the radial E field extends outside and around the long primary coil. This radial E field is strongest at the hot end,and drops to near zero at the ground end of the long primary inductor.

So 1- As my secondary(the MOT with resistor across it) gains the highest amplitude at the center of the long primary inductor,and the radial E field is strongest at one end and weakest at the other end of the primary,then it cannot be the radial E field inducing the EMF across my secondary(the MOT secondary)
2- As Smudges drawing seems to show the circular E field is contained within the primary coil,then this also means that the circular E field is not inducing the EMF across my MOT secondary.
3- If my MOT secondary is the H field detector as you stated,then that also means that that it is not seeing the E field.
4- This can only mean that it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the secondary,and not the E field.

But there is a problem with this,if this is the case,and it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the MOT secondary in my test.
I will bring that up soon ,along with a video showing you what i mean.
But first--is it the E field or the H field in my video test that is giving rise to the EMF across the MOT secondary?.

Brad
   
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Posts: 2033


Buy me some coffee
@all

I'll keep saying it. Thanks for your comments to all and to @TinMan for your works. Let's please not jump to any conclusions on this because it's not over. Let's keep an open mind and press on.

First off guys I do not have all the answers but I know so far from SC perspective, all this falls in perfectly. I just need to take some time to reflect and do a few small benchies to see things.

Yes @Smudge showed a drawing with thanks and it shows how our guys presently understand this effect but again, my diagram shows it also and explains why HCS is producing the MOT effect, which in my book is a mirage. You cannot beat the tape head test because it does not involve any influences other then what's happening in that wire, at that turn. Since the wire is the one conveying the pulse, it would never be overridden by the core impress itself until it gets to the negative end and this is the only thing we need to know. The rest of it is only a mirage created by core reflections and does not depict the actual turn per turn performance of the pulse which is gradually going down to the zero point of the ground or neutral side.

So here is what I think I need to do to advance this further since I do not have all the answers but know that under this construct, whatever it is will be exposed on its own after calm reflection on the evidence.



Researching proposal:

Is anyone or group able to take on this one crazy task. Span through EE formulae that have some relevancy to these experiments or coupling and flux, especially those that have a value in it of 1/2. List the formulae and define what the 1/2 is doing. Yes sounds crazy but it is only logical to assume that if coils have half of their windings doing basically junk work, and if our formulas were derived by tabulating and plotting empirical data, then there has to be a few of these 1/2's that are related to HCS. It already has to be in our books but it is unnoticed or not drawing the proper attention from the regular EE crowd but that maybe it should for the OU crowd. This one is more or less out of my hands if not for the relational considerations. However, I needed to mention it because this part of the query will be left open for those able to investigate the question far better then me, plus it's really a question of available time.

Back soon.

wattsup

Quote
I need to find 3 identical straight ferrite cores preferably of useful lengths or ratios of let's say 3", 4.5" and 6" and onto each is wound a coil of 3" in length all starting at one end of the core. Then do the same experiments with the pickups. These three results will say so much more since the first will replicate my tests and the two other identical coils will push the reflection further and further away from the low coil end to the core end thus permitting the coil to gradually show its true colors and better explain the reflection effect that passes off as a full coil. So imagine if Maxwell was exposed to this same phenomena, how did this influence his math. He probably used a compass so how could they even fathom such ideas as the base of the effect. hahaha

I will take a guess as to what you will see.
Your 3 inch core with the 3 inch winding over that entire core will show what you have been seeing,in that the E field will drop to zero at the grounded end of your inductor.
With the 4.5 and 6 inch cores that have the wire wound over only the first 3 inches will show a different result. That result will be--> As you move your probe from the hot end of the windings toward the grounded end of the windings,once again you will see the E field drop to zero. !BUT!,from the grounded end of the windings,to the end of the core that is void of windings,the E field will invert,and once again begin to rise as you get closer to the end of the core that is void of windings. Why do i think this will happen?--well the core will carry the magnetic field to the end of the core-regardless of where the windings finish. As that magnetic field will be changing with time,then an electric field must also exist along with that changing magnetic field.

Anyway-that is only what i think,and makes sense to me  :-\
Wattsup
Is there any reason we cant use a soft iron core or laminated core for this test,as i would be working in low frequencies anyway ?.
I may have the ferrit rods to do the test,but i doubt is.

Brad
   
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Smudge.

This is all well and good for the primary,but what field induces an EMF across a secondary?
Where in that diagram you posted will be the strongest part of the E field around the outside of the long inductor?

Brad

Brad,

The circular E field exists outside the primary and I really should have shown that.  It is strongest just outside the primary at the coil centre, but as you create ever larger radii of your secondary coil the E field diminishes in magnitude because you get H (or B) field lines threading the secondary in the opposite direction to those in the primary.  So the total flux threading the secondary diminishes.  Note this is for solenoidal coils, in the case of toroidal cores there is no means for the primary flux lines to turn back around the outside.  In your toroidal thingy you can get flux between the inner primary and the outer secondary induced there by the secondary resonance that magnifies the flux coming from the secondary current.

Smudge 
   
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Smudge's drawing shows clearly that the intensity gradient along the long coil for the circular E field bears a close relationship to the H field intensity, while the radial E field shows the reduction to zero intensity at the grounded end and maximum at the opposing end.

Now you might ask what causes what, and I would be inclined to guess that the circular E field causes the H field, but I am not trained in this area so may be entirely wrong.

No, the circular E field comes from the time-changing H field (actually the B field).  The flux in Webers is the B field multiplied by the area, and the volts per turn is the rate of change of flux.  But that voltage comes from the circular E field which drives the electrons around that turn.  The voltage you get from the E field is obtained from the value of the E field multiplied by the length of the conductor that lies along the E field, in this case the circumference of the turn.  If you have N turns then you have a conductor length that is N times that circumference so you get N times the voltage

Smudge
   
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Ion
I am not worried about the the E field bringing rise to the H field within and around the primary inductor. What i want to know is what causes the EMF across the secondary-->the MOT secondary i used around the long primary.

Smudges picture tells me that the circular E field is contained within the primary coil,while the radial E field extends outside and around the long primary coil. This radial E field is strongest at the hot end,and drops to near zero at the ground end of the long primary inductor.

So 1- As my secondary(the MOT with resistor across it) gains the highest amplitude at the center of the long primary inductor,and the radial E field is strongest at one end and weakest at the other end of the primary,then it cannot be the radial E field inducing the EMF across my secondary(the MOT secondary)
2- As Smudges drawing seems to show the circular E field is contained within the primary coil,then this also means that the circular E field is not inducing the EMF across my MOT secondary.
3- If my MOT secondary is the H field detector as you stated,then that also means that that it is not seeing the E field.
4- This can only mean that it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the secondary,and not the E field.

But there is a problem with this,if this is the case,and it is the H field that gives rise to the EMF across the MOT secondary in my test.
I will bring that up soon ,along with a video showing you what i mean.
But first--is it the E field or the H field in my video test that is giving rise to the EMF across the MOT secondary?.

Brad

Just remember that it is an E field that creates force on conduction electrons, so if you measure an induced voltage there has to be a circular E field there.  Where that E field comes from may seem obscure but it sure is there.  I need to check your video to answer your question and I'll do that when I get home.  At the moment I am sitting in our motorhome being buffeted by gale force winds.

Smudge
   
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@all

I just ordered 4 of these ferrite rods. They were the cheapest price I could find for long enough ferrites. So I will simply cut one to the other two lengths and keep the others on hand. hahaha

http://www.ebay.ca/itm/NiZn-Ferrite-Rod-R40C1-200x10mm-for-High-Q-Amateur-Crystal-Radio-Coils-AM-SW-/151884949745?hash=item235d0c68f1:g:3QMAAOSwNSxU-kHM

@Smudge

I will answer about the fields on the Coils,Magnetic and Electric fields thread since you put up quit an elaborate description, with thanks.

@TinMan

Thanks for that all so boring event. hehehe I really appreciate it and will answer soon.

I should have emphasized that maybe doing it at the same input power level as your first to make that first center MOT comparison, but I really think the Tesla Coil needs its own set of rules. If you ever set it up again, try the MOT center and scope the MOT, then put the whole thing in vertical to the Earth plane and see if it does anything OOTO.

wattsup



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