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Author Topic: Do permanent magnets " DO " work?  (Read 4202 times)

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tExB=qr
Certainly if we consider a single electron it will create a magnetic field associated with its movement. 
I don't like the words "couple with" because that suggests some special effect associated with the
combined fields.  Its field will add vectorally and temporally to the static field from the current loop. 
The current loop would see the temporal change as an induced voltage impulse of one polarity as
the electron approaches and of opposite polarity as it recedes.  Because of the sudden acceleration
the approach velocity is less than the receding velocity so the two impulses have different magnitudes
and widths.  But the exchange of energy with the loop's current source is zero, it gains as much energy
from one pulse as it loses from the other pulse.  Of course we don't have single electrons, we have
a current stream of zillions of electrons so those impulses all cancel out and we don't need to consider
them.  We have constant current arriving and leaving the acceleration point so the magnetic fields from
those trajectories is constant.  It is only the radiation from the accelerating region that is "seen" by the
current loop.  Of interest is just what is that radiation?  You can argue that over the small accelerating
region the current is constant because the changing density of electrons negates the effect of increased
velocity, so there is no magnetic impulse to create an induction E field, hence there is no radiation. 
That is certainly a possibility.  But my gut feeling is that there is a radiation E field there and that
is what we are looking for.

Smudge

While the electron is accelerating, the E field is time-dependent. 
If this E-field is also perpendicular to a steady magnetic field,
then you have the necessary elements for a mode of induction
predicted in Willie Johnson's Gyroscopic Force Theory.  He is a member here, but has not been around since he last spoke with you about inner space, and something about a resistance of 30 ohms. 
He went and wrote a book based on the 30 ohms, titles "The Sagitta Key".

The equation for this GFT induction is tExB=qr.  He uses quaternions extensively, but his explanation of this equation is simple and we discussed it months ago on this forum.
A time-dependent electric field, perpendicular to a static magnetic field, will induce a current in a conductor.  The units for qr are Coulomb-meter, same as for the dipole moment.  My take on that is that there is a change in density of the dipoles in the conductor.
   
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How fast do we need to go? It seems my Copper sheet is imperial so I'm looking at a 36" ( Inch ) maximum circumference.
I've just done some calculations for 100RPM on a slip ring 300mm diameter carrying 10 amps from the two brushes.  Then for a 1 turn loop that is 50mm diameter placed so that its nearest point gets 10mm from the brush contact the DC voltage would be 0.8 microvolts.  Make that 100 turns and it's 80 microvolts.  Increase the diameter of the pick-up loop to 100mm and the single turn voltage is 1.3 microvolts.  Hope that gives you some idea for  the sort of voltages expected.

Quote
I have a 400 MHZ, 4 channel analogue scope and on the basic end a moving coil micro ammeter ( 0-50 ) if memory serves correctly.
Maybe the induced voltage could drive short-circuit current that would show on that meter.

Quote
For the pickup coil how does a " Hard drive " actuator arm sound ?
No idea what that consists of having never taken a hard drive apart.

Smudge
   

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Dear Smudge.

One hundred RPM, I was expecting much faster.... :D

I acquired a job lot of high precision Japanese motors, so could use one as both the drive and support.

With the recent dialogue relating to this experiment seeming to imply contradiction, I'm asking, rather bluntly, is it worth my time? Time is precious here ATM so a consensus would be very useful.

Kind regards, Grum.


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Dear Grum,

I was surprised by the results from the calculations.  I have checked them again and can't find anything to make the results smaller.  I'll write a small paper showing how I got them so that others can look for errors.

In view of the importance of this form of DC induction into a loop I think the experiment is well worth your time.  Not only could it bring you fame for the discovery, it opens the door to the means for continually extracting energy from the quantum dynamos that provide the magnetism in PM's.  Of course the experiment might end in failure, perhaps this DC induction doesn't exist.  In which case you will save people like me a lot of time, we can forget all about it.

Smudge
   

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Bill Hammack enthusiastically describes how a hard drive works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4iaxOUYalJU


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Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Dear Smudge.

One hundred RPM, I was expecting much faster.... :D

I acquired a job lot of high precision Japanese motors, so could use one as both the drive and support.

With the recent dialogue relating to this experiment seeming to imply contradiction, I'm asking, rather bluntly, is it worth my time? Time is precious here ATM so a consensus would be very useful.

Kind regards, Grum.

Dear Grum
This is an important experiment, and if I had the machining skills I would try it. My only reservation is the very low microvolt output might be confused with thermoelectric artifacts.

Assuming the experiment did provide a positive result through careful measurement, the next question is how can one build a reasonably sized device that could yield usable power?

Would current carrying conductors physically impulsed (vibrated) at ultrasonic speeds provide the needed E field?

Agreed, time is precious.

Regards, ION


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Dear Smudge and ION.

Many thanks for your encouraging posts.

I'll wait a little for your paper and hope that others might also take the time to pass judgment. Perhaps, in the meantime we could look into the " Grey/Gray " areas of how to make sure the experiment doesn't get " fooled " by doing something the wrong way.

I have already got most of the layout firmly mapped within my " noggin " ! Am I correct in thinking that the pickup coil is at 90deg to the driven loop?

Kind regards, Grum.


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Assuming the experiment did provide a positive result through careful measurement, the next question is how can one build a reasonably sized device that could yield usable power?

Would current carrying conductors physically impulsed (vibrated) at ultrasonic speeds provide the needed E field?

I think you need to look at electron mass acceleration followed by rapid deceleration creating a compression of the scalar field to generate a "pressure increase".

Due to the effective resistor at the boundary plane a lot of heat will probably be generated from a pulsed cycle over significant time, incorporation of cryogenic cooling fluid expressing a "pressure increase" would be beneficial for system efficiency but would not reduce system complexity.

hhop is simpler for me, electrical energy is extracted from the scalar "compressed" field over time, the system is then allowed to reset due to a natural starting condition imbalance and an irresistible desire to return to equilibrium.


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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tExB=qr
If you apply hv pulses of a few ns to a long coil (I used 1300 feet, air core, and 10ns pulse at 2kv) you can experiment with some sort of very strong E-field effect.  It's much stronger than just static hv. 

Hold a magnet near the coil while it is being pulsed and the magnet will move violently.  Everyone is quick to say that this is caused by the magnetic field of the coil, but this magnetic field is almost negligible, if detected at all.

I've thought that it may be possible to make a small generator from this effect but haven't gotten around to trying it.
   

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Dear Smudge.

Could you do a calculation to find out the dimensions and speed to generate 1 Volt?

This value would effectively rule out any ambiguity/error from brush arcing etc.

Kind regards, Grum.


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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I've just done some calculations for 100RPM on a slip ring 300mm diameter carrying 10 amps from the two brushes.  Then for a 1 turn loop that is 50mm diameter placed so that its nearest point gets 10mm from the brush contact the DC voltage would be 0.8 microvolts.  Make that 100 turns and it's 80 microvolts.  Increase the diameter of the pick-up loop to 100mm and the single turn voltage is 1.3 microvolts.  Hope that gives you some idea for  the sort of voltages expected.

http://www.convertunits.com/from/volt/to/microvolt

Using the above hyperlinked conversion website I get 1.3 microVolts = 0.0000013 Volts


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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Everyman decries immorality
If you apply hv pulses of a few ns to a long coil (I used 1300 feet, air core, and 10ns pulse at 2kv) you can experiment with some sort of very strong E-field effect.  It's much stronger than just static hv. 

Hold a magnet near the coil while it is being pulsed and the magnet will move violently.  Everyone is quick to say that this is caused by the magnetic field of the coil, but this magnetic field is almost negligible, if detected at all.

I've thought that it may be possible to make a small generator from this effect but haven't gotten around to trying it.

Electric Field from Voltage


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/electric/efromv.html

One of the values of calculating the scalar electric potential (voltage) is that the electric field can be calculated from it. The component of electric field in any direction is the negative of rate of change of the potential in that direction.

If the differential voltage change is calculated along a direction ds, then it is seen to be equal to the electric field component in that direction times the distance ds.

Magnetic Field of Current


http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/magnetic/magcur.html

The magnetic field lines around a long wire which carries an electric current form concentric circles around the wire. The direction of the magnetic field is perpendicular to the wire and is in the direction the fingers of your right hand would curl if you wrapped them around the wire with your thumb in the direction of the current.


---------------------------
Everyman Standing Order 01: In the Face of Tyranny; Everybody Stands, Nobody Runs.
Everyman Standing Order 02: Everyman is Responsible for Energy and Security.
Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   
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Dear Smudge.

Could you do a calculation to find out the dimensions and speed to generate 1 Volt?

This value would effectively rule out any ambiguity/error from brush arcing etc.

Kind regards, Grum.

If you want the impossible then I'll do that.  In fact you can do it yourself in the attached spreadsheet.

You'll get answers like a slip-ring that is 3m diameter going at 10,000 RPM and carrying 2000 amps across it.  However the spread sheet is for a single turn loop so you can get some relief by having more turns.

Also attached is a paper describing the math.

You might ask what is the value in the small voltages you get practically, and the answer to that is the huge effective ampere-turns you get in permanent magnets.  It only needs a small induced voltage to extract significant power.

Smudge
   

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Dear Smudge.

Oh dear, you used the " M " word!! Sadly my weakest subject.

From a practical point of view the first problem will be how to attach the Copper ring that is going to get very hot, very quickly. My initial thoughts were to heat up the ring and shrink fit it to the former.....
But that's going to expand again during the experiment.

Would Aluminium tube work? I'm going to say this very quietly as my wife's wheel chair has 30" diameter propelling tubes....... Get the picture?   ;)

Cheers Grum.


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Dear Grum
Maybe a composite or plastic bicycle wheel would work. Deflate the tire slightly, slip on the copper ring and re-inflate.


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Dear Smudge.

Oh dear, you used the " M " word!! Sadly my weakest subject.

From a practical point of view the first problem will be how to attach the Copper ring that is going to get very hot, very quickly. My initial thoughts were to heat up the ring and shrink fit it to the former.....
But that's going to expand again during the experiment.

Would Aluminium tube work? I'm going to say this very quietly as my wife's wheel chair has 30" diameter propelling tubes....... Get the picture?   ;)

You're not seriously thinking of getting 1 volt are you?  10,000 RPM on a  30" wheel   ??? !!  Good luck to you  O0 on that.  OK maybe a 100 turn coil and then only 100 RPM.  I hope your wife isn't in the wheelchair while one of her wheels is being spun ;).  Al is slightly more resistive than copper.

Smudge
   

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Dear Grum
Maybe a composite or plastic bicycle wheel would work. Deflate the tire slightly, slip on the copper ring and re-inflate.

Dear ION.

Now that's a plan !!   O0

I think I have just the wheel in the workshop. The tyre will move with the expanding Copper ring.

Cheers Grum.


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Dear ION.

Now that's a plan !!   O0

I think I have just the wheel in the workshop. The tyre will move with the expanding Copper ring.

Cheers Grum.

Dear Grum

I'm sure you have worked enough around rotating machinery to exercise good safety practices, so I need not remind you to wear your safety glasses, helmet, and flak jacket or run the test remotely.

I would use as many turns on your pickup coil as you can muster up so that the signal is well above the noise floor. If you have a pre-wound coil, we can work backwards to figure the  number of turns on it once you get the output data.

Best of luck  ;)
ION


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Thanks ION.   O0

Dear Smudge.

Can you crunch some numbers please?

What RPM would be required for 1 Volt with 10 Amperes applied and a 10 turn pickup coil?

I was right, I do have a nice robust plastic wheel fitted with pneumatic tube and tyre. Oh, nearly forgot the wheel outside diameter is 12" or 305 mm. I shall have to cut my Copper sheet obliquely to get the required 3.142 of my diameter.

Kind regards, Grum.


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Thanks ION.   O0

Dear Smudge.

Can you crunch some numbers please?

What RPM would be required for 1 Volt with 10 Amperes applied and a 10 turn pickup coil?

I was right, I do have a nice robust plastic wheel fitted with pneumatic tube and tyre. Oh, nearly forgot the wheel outside diameter is 12" or 305 mm. I shall have to cut my Copper sheet obliquely to get the required 3.142 of my diameter.

Kind regards, Grum.
Dear Grum,

With your 10 turn coil also 12" diameter and placed so that the turns get to within 5mm (0.2") of the brush contact you need 900,000 RPM.  Yes that is 900 thousand RPM.  The 1 volt requirement is just not practical.  Come down to 1 millivolt and then you are talking possible.

Smudge
   
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Dear Grum,

With your 10 turn coil also 12" diameter and placed so that the turns get to within 5mm (0.2") of the brush contact you need 900,000 RPM.  Yes that is 900 thousand RPM.  The 1 volt requirement is just not practical.  Come down to 1 millivolt and then you are talking possible.

Smudge

Is there a problem with using a 1000 or 10,000 turns coil? I know it's DC resistance will be higher, but it should give plenty of output voltage so the RPM can be kept in a reasonable range.

What shape would be best for the pickup coil? (diameter to length?)


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Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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Dear Grum,

With your 10 turn coil also 12" diameter and placed so that the turns get to within 5mm (0.2") of the brush contact you need 900,000 RPM.  Yes that is 900 thousand RPM.  The 1 volt requirement is just not practical.  Come down to 1 millivolt and then you are talking possible.

Smudge

        :o    :D    O0

My, that's a lot of RPM's !!

Plan  "B " then !!  A hard drive actuator coil.  From memory, if I energise a known number of turns with a known voltage I should be able to work out the turns ratio into the coil placed alongside?

Cheers Grum.


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        :o    :D    O0

My, that's a lot of RPM's !!

Plan  "B " then !!  A hard drive actuator coil.  From memory, if I energise a known number of turns with a known voltage I should be able to work out the turns ratio into the coil placed alongside?

Cheers Grum.

Dear Grum

A hard drive actuator coil has a small number of turns, designed to work off the +5 or +12 supply to quickly accelerate the head to new positions. Are you able to see the turns in the coil driver?

You could quickly make a 1000 or more turn coil with a small plastic spool and a drill.

Regard, ION


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        :o    :D    O0

My, that's a lot of RPM's !!

Plan  "B " then !!  A hard drive actuator coil.  From memory, if I energise a known number of turns with a known voltage I should be able to work out the turns ratio into the coil placed alongside?

Cheers Grum.

Grum
As far as i am aware,you are also on 240v mains?
If so,then a coil from a shaded pole motor from a microwave oven fan would work well i think as the pickup coil,as they have many turns.

I would think a group brainstorm on how we can work out !what! the magnetic field actually is,would give us a much better chance of getting useful  work from them.

The best guess ATM is that it (the magnetic field) is some sort of cloud of vertual photons,but i tend to believe it to be a flow of positive and negative charges of some form--but what kind of charge?.

We are dealing with the holly  grail of free energy,and only one correct answer here will change the world as we know it.


Brad
   

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Dear Brad and all.

May I draw your attention to this post over at OU?

http://overunity.com/15307/lenz-free-generator/msg490292/#msg490292

Curious?

Cheers Grum.


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