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Author Topic: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2  (Read 15080 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
Well, as you can probably tell I do use that "test-stand" approach when I look at these things. My circuit layouts are deliberately designed so I can easily get to and replace every part if necessary, change things around, whatever. That's why I don't use pad-per-hole prototype boards until much later in the process, if ever, and I build almost like the schematic layout, with power legs on top and bottom and the "action" happening between the legs... er.... well, you know what I mean.

Yes, I've always liked your breadboard approach.

If someone brings us an engine, we should insist on knowing what the claims are so that we can set up the "test stand" properly.

I guess what I meant by "test stand" is we should know what the claims are for a device so we can set the appropriate loads and speeds on the dyno, and the type of fuel to be used.

In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.

Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-29, 01:46:39 by ION »


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In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.

Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.

Yes
Trying to do that now,but seems to be a big ask when asking how to calculate power dissipated by the coil's,and power factor correction for real power value's.  C.C


Brad




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Dear Graham

Yes, Brad has extensive engine skills and I think Chet was an aviation mechanic at one point, and is always rebuilding some engine. I'm sure there are others that I have not named so please chime in if you are out there.

Some are CDI where the capacitor is charged to a high voltage from a separate winding on the magneto, then the capacitor is discharged at the appropriate time into a low turns count winding to generate the spark.

Another type uses a transistor that is held on (like the points dwell time) which allows current to build in the core winding until the appropriate moment when the transistor is allowed to open, then the spark is produced. The tricky thing is that it is all done with just the magneto powering the circuit, holding the transistor on and turning it off.....no external power source for timing control.

I don't know anything about Tesla's Igniter patent, but HV sparks was right up his alley.

Regarding Nelson's bifilar pancake coils, he doesn't use them in the mini exciter, so if the mini exciter is a teaching principle / learning tool towards some better end result, it has left out the main ingredient.

Regards

Todays younger generation are not being taught the old school ways.
Some time ago,i asked one of the younger mechanic's a simple question.
Being fresh out of nappies(just completed his apprenticeship),and thinking he knew all there is to know(because his papers said he dose),i asked the very simple question-->do you increase or decrease the points gap,to advance the timing?.

He stood there ,looking at me,if to say--what the-----are you talking about.
The question finally came out-->what are point's he asked  :o

Why is it,as a mechanic,i am required to keep up to date with all modern tech,but todays youth are not even taught the most basic thing's--that still exist today,i might add.

I would still rather work on a robust points ignition system,than any of the (might last) modern day rubbish.

Anyway,below a pic of the donner of my new project--turning an old VW motor into a single cylinder-open crank  engine-red neck style  ;D
Oh,and with an electromagnetic governor  O0

The motor only turns about 10* ,before we get lockup with a loud clunk lol.
Suspect a thrown rod,but will see soon enough.


Brad


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ION

On another note,looking at your bench,i see this thread was started,and only one post--what happened?

This would directly relate to this thread,would it not?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=606.0


Brad


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Heh... looking at that old VW motor brings back memories and makes my hands itch for tools. It looks like a 1500-1600 cc type with singleport heads and vacuum-advance distributor. Too bad the carb is missing, originally took a Solex 28 or 30 I think. More common failure than thrown rod is a dropped valve, which will also cause the lockup and clunk especially if there are pieces of the shattered piston all through there. They will throw rods too if the operator ran them dry of oil.

I've rebuilt so many of those I can't even count them. Still have all the tooling necessary, including cylinder hones. Too bad I'm not in your hemisphere, I'd be over there helping you wrench on that thing, it's about a four-beer job. Take that sucker apart, install helicoil inserts for all the main studs, alignbore the case, turn the crank, fit over-undersized main bearings, polish the camshaft, install a complete set of 1640 cc Kolbenschmidt pistons and cylinders,  mass-balance the 4 conrods, replace the distributor with a straight mechanical advance Bosch Porsche distributor and high voltage blue coil, flycut the heads, fit new exhaust valves, a tuned header instead of the stock exhaust system.... I'd make that sucker roar.


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Yes, I've always liked your breadboard approach.

If someone brings us an engine, we should insist on knowing what the claims are so that we can set up the "test stand" properly.

I guess what I meant by "test stand" is we should know what the claims are for a device so we can set the appropriate loads and speeds on the dyno, and the type of fuel to be used.

In the case of electronic devices, input voltage and current, and output loads, resistive, inductive or other, expected power etc.

Without that the burden is placed on us to guess, go in circles, cut and try, waste time.

Yes, exactly, and that is what is so frustrating about this NR project. We don't know what we need to know in order to make an effective exploration of the thing. Here, I am now using a TIP35C transistor. Is that important? Will I destroy my chances of seeing whatever the point is, if I don't use a TIP122 Darlington? Who knows? I doubt if even NR knows. That's why I have to keep my sense of humour and irony intact about this.


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ION

On another note,looking at your bench,i see this thread was started,and only one post--what happened?

This would directly relate to this thread,would it not?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=606.0
Brad

Brad I never developed that thread further because most of my work was spent in related threads on my bench concerning how to test a blocking oscillator and the spurious behavior identified as in this post:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=602.msg9543#msg9543

I also decided that there were far better tutorials on line than I could write for how to engineer a JT, blocking oscillator, or ringing choke converter (RCC) as they are also known.

But first, as said in that post, you need to specify what you needed the device to do, then you could proceed. Many of the tutorials on line are heavy on math, but I think it's also good to have a feel for what is going on in the circuit, what causes what to happen, and that is where I should continue the topic.

e.g. what causes the different types of ringing that occurs after the flyback pulse has dumped nearly all of it's energy. Why do we become fascinated with that ringing and the shape of the decay  What factors shape the frequency and damping ratio of the ringing. Why really efficient converters do not have the ringing, so what is it?

Maybe I should continue the thread in that spirit, identifying causes for certain waveshapes.

Regards



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Yes
Trying to do that now,but seems to be a big ask when asking how to calculate power dissipated by the coil's,and power factor correction for real power value's.  C.C


Brad

Well, you could take this approach:

You know the power input, right? And you know the power dissipated in the resistors themselves, which is less than the power input. So "clearly" the rest of the input power is being dissipated or lost in the inductors, by radiation, joule heating, core losses if any, and perhaps even reflection back into the power supply. 

Of course that makes the _assumption_ that Conservation of Energy applies already.    ;)


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Yes, exactly, and that is what is so frustrating about this NR project. We don't know what we need to know in order to make an effective exploration of the thing. Here, I am now using a TIP35C transistor. Is that important? Will I destroy my chances of seeing whatever the point is, if I don't use a TIP122 Darlington? Who knows? I doubt if even NR knows. That's why I have to keep my sense of humour and irony intact about this.

Hi TK
Looks like the TIP35C is a much more robust device , the same voltage rating but much higher 5 times the current rating, but it is not a Darlington. The  TIP35C has a DC current gain of about 25 whereas the TIP122 with the compound transistors has a DC current gain of 1000 minimum.

What does this mean? If you want the possibility of a lot of spurious oscillation modes, the TIP122 is the way to go, whereas the TIP35C will generally be more tame and controlled. It is really hard to even compare the two devices as they are vastly different animals. Only thing in common they are classed as  switching transistors, but that is a wide definition. The TIP35C is also classed as a general purpose power amplifier. Gain bandwidth product is also probably very different for the devices, as well as output capacitance.

I might add that the data sheets I have are from two different manufacturers. It might be better to compare the two devices from the same manufacturer so that the data sheets are similar in form.

Hope that helps


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Yes, ION you are absolutely right. Without knowing what is considered "important" one really can't choose between the two transistors.

Myself, I like to see the high voltages on the output without seeing excessive transistor heating, so for me, the TIP35C works "Better" than the TIP122. But in my construction, changing from one transistor to the other is simply a matter of loosening and tightening three screws in a terminal block. Don't even have to fire up the soldering iron. So it is easy for me to do comparisons, and if someone will just tell me what is important, what are the desired waveforms, etc. I can easily change to the transistor that will give me those characteristics.

But the TIP35C still even gives me those long-duration oscillations after disconnecting the main power supply, so I'm not convinced that the high gain of the TIP122 is actually important for even that effect either.



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Heh... looking at that old VW motor brings back memories and makes my hands itch for tools. It looks like a 1500-1600 cc type with singleport heads and vacuum-advance distributor. Too bad the carb is missing, originally took a Solex 28 or 30 I think. More common failure than thrown rod is a dropped valve, which will also cause the lockup and clunk especially if there are pieces of the shattered piston all through there. They will throw rods too if the operator ran them dry of oil.

I've rebuilt so many of those I can't even count them. Still have all the tooling necessary, including cylinder hones. Too bad I'm not in your hemisphere, I'd be over there helping you wrench on that thing, it's about a four-beer job. Take that sucker apart, install helicoil inserts for all the main studs, alignbore the case, turn the crank, fit over-undersized main bearings, polish the camshaft, install a complete set of 1640 cc Kolbenschmidt pistons and cylinders,  mass-balance the 4 conrods, replace the distributor with a straight mechanical advance Bosch Porsche distributor and high voltage blue coil, flycut the heads, fit new exhaust valves, a tuned header instead of the stock exhaust system.... I'd make that sucker roar.

Lol-yah the VW motor  :D
Yes,a 1500 single port.

A couple of friends of mine,and myself,where heavily into beach buggies here in S/W of WA,as we had 100's of square miles of sand dunes right at our front door.

All that work and modifications TK,when a simple turbo placed on a 1300 yields 128hp  ;)

Quote
Solex 28 or 30 I think.

Yes,a terrible carby.
We use to put the 138 holden grey motor stromberg carby ,with variable main jet on the VW motor's,and worked a treat once fuel mix was correctly adjusted.The 1600 twin ports went very well,with a correctly jetted 350 holly as well.

Wait until you see the video i just shot of the strip down--this motor has been to hell and back lol.

It's been like 15 years since i have touched one of these engine's,and there getting rare here now.
Man-a million memories came flashing back.
Friday nights was always!rebuild the VW buggy engine!night with mate's,back in the day.
You could buy a full rebuild kit(new barrels,pistons,ring's,shell's,and gasket kit),for under $250.00 back then.

Ah-those were the days  :)


Brad


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All this talk of rebuilding VW engines is way more interesting to me than the NR JT. I had a 67 bus, a 76 bus, a 68 fastback, and I think one was a 69 squareback. When the 67 engine developed so much slop in the main bearing and connecting rods it was time to pull it, so after taking it into the basement and stripping it down, ordering new jugs and pistons, and a bunch of other stuff, I decided I lacked the skill and experience to pull off the rebuild, but found a friend to walk me through it. Call me chicken......I think it was the idea of messing with plastigauge and those tight bearing tolerances that made me squeemish. I also lacked the proper tools.

  Why did I have so many EFI vehicles?.......I was an electronics guy! stupid moves.  :-[

    I understand how it feels to be a fish out of water when it comes to skillsets.   ;)

Well we have thoroughly derailed this thread. Now how do we convince Jim and Graham that this is indeed related somehow to the NR thingy?  :D


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Hmmm....

It seems you guys had " the need for speed " bug?

For me as a young man most of my youth was spent exploring our beautiful higher regions of North Wales interspersed with my other passion of caving.

Married at 20 and a mortgage left very little cash for playing with so I just bumbled along.

The last major delve for me was when my BMW D sport ingested a swirl flap which necessitated a lid off and remove broken bits of Stainless steel. Other than a chipped vane on the Turbo and minor dings in number 3 piston and head I got off very lucky.

I'm really happy with my 180 BHP Diesel..... Old Rudolf could never have imagined such RPM !!

Cheers Graham.


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Yes, ION you are absolutely right. Without knowing what is considered "important" one really can't choose between the two transistors.

Myself, I like to see the high voltages on the output without seeing excessive transistor heating, so for me, the TIP35C works "Better" than the TIP122. But in my construction, changing from one transistor to the other is simply a matter of loosening and tightening three screws in a terminal block. Don't even have to fire up the soldering iron. So it is easy for me to do comparisons, and if someone will just tell me what is important, what are the desired waveforms, etc. I can easily change to the transistor that will give me those characteristics.

But the TIP35C still even gives me those long-duration oscillations after disconnecting the main power supply, so I'm not convinced that the high gain of the TIP122 is actually important for even that effect either.

Yes the TIP35C will go out to 3 MHz GBW.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gain%E2%80%93bandwidth_product

Regarding the long run times, if the circuit is not providing any output power, it can "freewheel" for a long time, until the caps run down. How long does it run without the two power supply bypass caps?

What is important to remember that Blocking Oscillators are different in operational principles than typical feedback oscillators, but the various parasitic modes are produced when the circuit is "changing modes" or when the blocking oscillator is "between modes"

With the higher gain of the TIP122 you are more likely to have the required gain to support some of the intermediate oscillation modes i.e modes available when the transistor is not fully off or fully on but at some point in between. These are the normal feedback oscillator modes and gain available must support oscillation criteria if  it is to oscillate in these "between state modes"

On the other hand due to the 3MHz GBW of the TIP35C you may have just enough gain to be able to hit some really high frequency (but less than 3MHZ)  modes of oscillation.

Then there is the other factor: stiffness of the power source. A saggy or current limited supply or supply chain can cause a low frequency "burst mode" of oscillation due to the recharge time constants of the rail capacitors. We used to call this "motorboating". There are many causes for "motorboating" besides a "soft" supply. It could also be caused by drive being quenched due to long   time constants in the base drive scheme.

A highly recommended read for all in this investigation:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motorboating_%28electronics%29

we see there is the odd heavy handed base drive that has it's own long and short time constants due to sheer capacitor size and esr, and also capacitance of the diode in that circuit. We cannot at this time know what the builder had in mind in this choice of circuit configuration. The rest is straight JT with multiple output paths.

Lots of stuff to juggle here. A good designer would present the rationale for his choice of each of the components in a complete circuit description, that is,if he truly wanted to teach an art.  :)

If he wanted to play cat and mouse games, that is another story.  ;)
« Last Edit: 2017-04-29, 23:50:09 by ION »


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There is a third story possible as well. And that is that the Designer honestly thinks he knows what he is designing and what he is trying to teach,  but actually doesn't.


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