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2017-11-21, 22:53:10
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Author Topic: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2  (Read 4853 times)

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Dear TinselKoala.

That's one of them.

Ah, the wooden piston.

Years ago a friend was traveling in an old Triumph " Standard 8 " he asked the driver why it smelt of smoke in the cab...... the driver replied that he had blown a piston and replaced it with a wooden one !!

That's absolute gospel truth.....

It's been done. I used wood to get me home when a brake pad shed the Ferrodo !!

Cheers Graham.


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Dear ION.

Point taken and a smile " to boot ".... O0

I well know my limitations in the electronics area with just level 3 Radio/Television repair qualifications from over 40 years ago now.

Time for bed then ?

But before you tuck me in.

Could someone answer my earlier question please.

" Now as I see it C5 is an additional store, BUT can it be classed as in parallel with C1 as there's a Diode D1 between them? Is the NE2 flashing over and putting some charge into C5 ? "

Night night.....

Well, yes and no. It charges in parallel with C1 when the power supply is connected, but it can't discharge in parallel when the supply is disconnected, because of the diode. So it can't act as a main power storage like the C1 but it can act as a storage for the toroid windings and through the toroid to the Base of the transistor. The connection to the main power rail through the diode keeps the C5 "topped off", I think.

I can't say about the neon, though. Which neon and where is NR connecting it?


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2.5 V at 210 mA input, pot turned all the way down (max resistance).  I have a neon load on the HV FWB and it is flickering nicely.

The "charger" output, with no load, is holding at 19.4 V. I've seen this go up to about 21 volts when the pot is cranked up and the thing changes into a different mode. Next I'll put a load on the charger output.



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Well, yes and no. It charges in parallel with C1 when the power supply is connected, but it can't discharge in parallel when the supply is disconnected, because of the diode. So it can't act as a main power storage like the C1 but it can act as a storage for the toroid windings and through the toroid to the Base of the transistor. The connection to the main power rail through the diode keeps the C5 "topped off", I think.

I can't say about the neon, though. Which neon and where is NR connecting it?

Well, that's the $64,000  question !!

The Neon is on a stalk in the video.


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Have I hit a "berserk mode" at 2.5 v , 250 mA input?    :D

Look at that waveform! berserk mode is obviously the key to OU. Think my new motto will be:
 I'm going "berserk"  :D

Now I'm off to print up those bumper stickers.   O0


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... continues to oscillate for several minutes after power supply is disconnected ....   


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.... make that "Continues to oscillate for _many_ minutes" after disconnecting power supply...


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Still has a signal on the output transformer secondary as well. Can't light an LED with it though, not much oompf there.


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It's definitely running down but very gradually indeed.

I have a switch in series with the Base of the transistor. Turning off this switch flatlines the traces. Then I turned the switch on.... still flatlined. Hmm... cycle switch several times very quickly... oscillations restart (or is the switch faulty?)



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a repost from Stefan's forum

Nelson
Quote
unfortunately was my last contribution about this subject .

Seems some “funny” persons like ridicularize my efforts and my work and in that way, certainly they not need any kind of support, i tell that because even in their elitist forum “overunityresearch.com” they simple not show any respect by my person and my efforts and by what i share .
In that way no more information will “travel” from this forum to overunityresearch.com .
 
This topic was blocked in Overunity.com just because some persons get “pouting” , and prefer go work in their “private” forum where they feel freely to use their habitual behavior and language and talk what they want . So in this way , they can continue with their jokes ,and laugh because laugh is good for health , but the will not have nothing more by me .

Myself do not understand, the reason to they continue to waste time on something they do not believe or even understand by the way .
I already share the essential for anyone who is interested in build that circuit otherwise people not satisfied with my decision just , leave it .
I’m really a fool thinking some persons could change :(  its my fault .

Nelson Rocha

   

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.... make that "Continues to oscillate for _many_ minutes" after disconnecting power supply...

Yeah I also saw that. Thought I was measuring it wrong. I sent the vid to grum. I've had over a minute so far. The neon was not lit when I was seeing it and it only occurred when I switched the polarity on one of the coils. And you can still manipulate the oscillation with the pot when the power is off.
   

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btw ION I would never try to build an engine :) .. maybe a motor or two but never an engine.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
btw ION I would never try to build an engine :) .. maybe a motor or two but never an engine.

Neither would I, I tried to rebuild a VW engine once and came to the conclusion I lacked the experience to pull it off successfully. I took it to an expert, we became friends and he took me as an apprentice and showed me every step of the process. I doubt that I will ever need rebuild a VW engine again, but it was a valuable experience. He never held back any "secret information" or dribbled out the process like a trail of crumbs. He was open and generous and skillfully guided my every step in the process with full explanations.

I was not trying to impune anyones electronics abilities with the little story, just trying to make the point that experts in one field do have transferable skills and should hold any claimant to the same rigorous standards of scrutiny as they would for someone bringing a device to their own field of expertise.

Rigorous proof of claims, rigorous test protocol, full disclosure, and above all clear explanations of the claims of the device. No pixie dust or unicorn power.

Regarding the quote from reply #59

That someone decides to take their ball and go home pouting like a child, there is an old saying:

"A person of superior nature is not easily offended"

So, no big loss from people that try to hide what they don't have to begin with.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-24, 01:43:01 by ION »


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Have I hit a "berserk mode" at 2.5 v , 250 mA input?    :D

Ah ha
That is exactly what i have going on.



Brad
   

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Ah ha
That is exactly what i have going on.



Brad

Cool huh?

Did the best reality check I could do to make sure the oscillations I'm seeing after power disconnect weren't just scope based. I put a dmm on the circuit and voltage was dropping at about 1mv / sec. I had it at 1.67 on the power supply and when I disconnected it was 1.65.  On another test I got the neon flashing for about 10 secs at 2hz. Interesting to play with.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-24, 11:38:20 by JimBoot »
   

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When did you discover that you can wire a relay to "buzz" by connecting the coil power connection through the normally closed switch contacts, and get high voltage spikes from the coil when the thing buzzes and rapidly turns itself on and off? Bonus points for adding a capacitor to store some of the spike energy. I think I was about ten years old, which puts it in the far distant past, last century sometime. Of course I didn't have a fancy power supply or oscilloscope then, I just used it to shock my friends and family and annoy the dogs.    :o

"Why would you want one of these, and what good use would you make of it?"  -- They are just questions, Leon, they are written down for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Sorry, I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.  If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.



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Cool huh?

Did the best reality check I could do to make sure the oscillations I'm seeing after power disconnect weren't just scope based. I put a dmm on the circuit and voltage was dropping at about 1mv / sec. I had it at 1.67 on the power supply and when I disconnected it was 1.65.  On another test I got the neon flashing for about 10 secs at 2hz. Interesting to play with.

Yep. I went around the house turning off all UPS, CFLs, monitors and etc. to make sure it wasn't picking up noise power from the environment somewhere. I finally killed it by using a jumper to short the power rails, but it didn't die instantly, it tapered off to flatline over a couple of seconds. SO that is pretty conclusive that it was running on stored power in the capacitors. Confirmed by applying a tiny voltage to get some charge, and it went straight into these low voltage oscillations again. My setup must have pretty high Q for it to go on like that for so long. Having the switch in the Base circuit also helps by providing the "kick" that can start these low voltage oscillations if they aren't happening at first.


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The severe base drive using large coupling capacitors (with no limiting series resistors as found in a typical BO or JT) allows the circuit to oscillate at very low voltage.

But at higher voltage the base is over driven with high forward current and high reverse current which can lead to failure of the TIP122 as I pointed out in an earlier post.

Good engineering involves selecting the appropriate base drive current limit scheme for the window of preferred operating voltages.

Operating with less than a couple of volts, no problem the TIP122 will not fail. Raise the voltage too high and either the base will be fried or the SOA will be exceeded.

I guess when there are no voltage operating specs for a circuit, you do so at your own risk of blowing transistors.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-24, 15:53:44 by ION »


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When did you discover that you can wire a relay to "buzz" by connecting the coil power connection through the normally closed switch contacts, and get high voltage spikes from the coil when the thing buzzes and rapidly turns itself on and off? Bonus points for adding a capacitor to store some of the spike energy. I think I was about ten years old, which puts it in the far distant past, last century sometime. Of course I didn't have a fancy power supply or oscilloscope then, I just used it to shock my friends and family and annoy the dogs.    :o

"Why would you want one of these, and what good use would you make of it?"  -- They are just questions, Leon, they are written down for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QiCD2LJjA-A

Sorry, I guess I got up on the wrong side of the bed this morning.  If you have nothing, you have nothing to lose.

Lol-you watched that too.

I made one of these about 10 years ago.
I think it was called the mechanical oscillator- battery desulfator,by JL Nordin if i remember.
   
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I use those for interference testing (susceptibility) of circuits to fast rise random EMI pulses. They will cause a microcomputer to glitch out and restart often. I tested a lot of our commercial products with such a device, put the appropriate EMI hardening into the product and then sent them off to the EMI test lab for approval.

 We could not afford to buy the precision impulse generating equipment at that time

Just a short antenna on the coil breaking contact does the job.


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Did you miss something?

Or am I being deluded?


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Next question.

Perhaps Nelson's intention was to get an overshoot.

How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?

Topping off ?

TinselKoala, you didn't actually state how long it took for your device to die, well not so much die but you killed it. Days, hours. ??


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Did you miss something?

Or am I being deluded?

You aren't missing anything and neither did I. Who is being deluded? Maybe the person making the video, because you cannot rely upon the _power supply's_ meter readings to tell you the truth-- especially if the manufacturer is Rigol, and even more especially if you have charged up a capacitor with the power supply and are then running on the cap rather than the PSU's output. I can show you similar "zero current" readings using my old Topward 6306D and the "NRMRE" or as I prefer to call it the NR Mystery Joule Thief.   Charge the input caps to a certain voltage then back off the PSU to a lower voltage-- bingo, the PSU then provides no current because the NRMJT is running on the energy in the cap, until it drops to or below the PSU voltage setting. And that's not even fooling the PSU by drawing rapid pulses from it!

Ask yourself why, if the power supply really isn't providing any power, does it need to be connected at all. Does Rigol secretly provide Dark Shenzhen Energy which can be seen on an oscilloscope but not on its own meters?


(ETA: by the way I cropped and shrank your image to make it more forum-friendly....)
« Last Edit: 2017-04-24, 20:50:50 by TinselKoala »


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Next question.

Perhaps Nelson's intention was to get an overshoot.

I'm not sure what you mean by "overshoot" and I'm certainly not qualified to guess NR's intentions, but it's good bait anyway.

Quote

How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?

Topping off ?


You mean like in the attached schematic? I'll try it once I warm up the equipment and have another cuppa Joe. (instant decaf of course, don't want to wake the Drop Bear inside me)

Quote

TinselKoala, you didn't actually state how long it took for your device to die, well not so much die but you killed it. Days, hours. ??


Hello GI love you long time low rate, island rate, kama'aina rate...      :-*
 


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I'm not sure what you mean by "overshoot" and I'm certainly not qualified to guess NR's intentions, but it's good bait anyway.

You mean like in the attached schematic? I'll try it once I warm up the equipment and have another cuppa Joe. (instant decaf of course, don't want to wake the Drop Bear inside me)

Hello GI love you long time low rate, island rate, kama'aina rate...      :-*

Ok.

You got me.

I'll leave with a gesture made famous by Winston Churchill...

Ta ta.


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