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Author Topic: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2  (Read 4854 times)

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Did I offend you in some way? If so, please accept my apology, no offense was intended.

It is just very hard for me to take this project seriously, that's all. Maybe I should just quit, since it's clear that nobody knows what we are supposed to be "proving" by exploring this circuit.

The "precise" answer to your question about "how long" is... I don't know. Hours maybe. Not days.

As to the use of the 10F supercap.... well, if NR can use one, why can't I?


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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(snip)

How would a Neon connected to the " spikey " side and the positive of C5 go?

Topping off ?

(snip)

No effect that I can see. Neon does not light.


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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Minutes after disconnecting power supply.... a chain of Elephants !


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Dear All

I added the inductor in my redraw of the circuit per the observation of the axial inductor by user Zephir. It is his belief that this added inducter assists the main toroid by helping it to become a paramatric oscillator i.e. the inductance of the main toroid is controlled by the small axial inductor.

It is my belief that there may be too little effect to form a parametric oscillator, but we shall see.

I might add that user partzman and Mr. Fred Epps have performed an exhaustive study and made very exacting measurements of parametric inductor control in an oscillator circuit and have not found there to be any hint of excess power by such a configuration.
Perhaps Mr. NR has some other method that is different and yields results.

I wish to note that in his schematic TK has the  inductor  in a different  position i.e. between the collector and the CW winding of the toroid.

 The extra axial inductor (if it is assumed to be the wire that looks like it is passing through the core on the original NR drawing)  goes from the collector out to the driven devices, i.e. the step up transformer and charger bridge rectifier. This is an important difference. The collector as seen in the original NR drawing connects directly to the CW winding of the toroid.

You can try the inductor in either location, but I doubt that it will have much effect. To have a larger effect it would have to be be positioned such that it is better coupled to the toroid core as in an image posted by Zephir with a half core glued to the toroid.

I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.
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In drawing schematics, it would be really good if everyone would try to conform to the industry standard conventions of :

1) inputs are on the left of the drawing, including power connections
2) outputs are on the right of the drawing
3) positive power rail across the top of the drawing
4) negative power rail (or circuit common ground) across the bottom of the drawing*
5) everything else is hung between these connection points or rails.

* if there is a negative bias supply it is to be drawn beneath the circuit common.

This makes it much easier to analyze signal and power flows when studying the circuit.

I have attempted to demonstrate this art in my redraw of NR's original sketch.

It will also make your drawings look more professional as well as easier to communicate to others. With time and practice, you will be able to read any such drawing easily, without having to untangle it in your mind.

As far as possible your breadboard will then be made to conform as far as possible to the layout of the schematic drawing, making for very easy testing and troubleshooting.

Just a suggestion.

Kind Regards
Vortex1


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Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:



(Thanks, xkcd!)


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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I think the idea of this circuit is create a fast switching mag field for very little cost. I think this is what Matt was hinting at. So I'm trialling pick up coils next.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:

I happen to know that circuit will not work as drawn because the inventor left out an important component so that replicators would always fail. ssshhh don't tell anyone it's the hocus pocus focus trimpot (Digikey) and I won't tell where it goes in the circuit except by PM and feed my paypal kitty.  ;)


---------------------------
Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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Dear All

I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
In drawing schematics, it would be really good if everyone would try to conform to the industry standard conventions of :

1) inputs are on the left of the drawing, including power connections
2) outputs are on the right of the drawing
3) positive power rail across the top of the drawing
4) negative power rail (or circuit common ground) across the bottom of the drawing*
5) everything else is hung between these connection points or rails.

* if there is a negative bias supply it is to be drawn beneath the circuit common.

This makes it much easier to analyze signal and power flows when studying the circuit.

I have attempted to demonstrate this art in my redraw of NR's original sketch.

It will also make your drawings look more professional as well as easier to communicate to others. With time and practice, you will be able to read any such drawing easily, without having to untangle it in your mind.

As far as possible your breadboard will then be made to conform as far as possible to the layout of the schematic drawing, making for very easy testing and troubleshooting.

Just a suggestion.

Kind Regards
Vortex1

Thanks for the circuit drawing tips. Helps us noobs.
   

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Dear All

I added the inductor in my redraw of the circuit per the observation of the axial inductor by user Zephir. It is his belief that this added inducter assists the main toroid by helping it to become a paramatric oscillator i.e. the inductance of the main toroid is controlled by the small axial inductor.

It is my belief that there may be too little effect to form a parametric oscillator, but we shall see.

I might add that user partzman and Mr. Fred Epps have performed an exhaustive study and made very exacting measurements of parametric inductor control in an oscillator circuit and have not found there to be any hint of excess power by such a configuration.
Perhaps Mr. NR has some other method that is different and yields results.

I wish to note that in his schematic TK has the  inductor  in a different  position i.e. between the collector and the CW winding of the toroid.

 The extra axial inductor (if it is assumed to be the wire that looks like it is passing through the core on the original NR drawing)  goes from the collector out to the driven devices, i.e. the step up transformer and charger bridge rectifier. This is an important difference. The collector as seen in the original NR drawing connects directly to the CW winding of the toroid.

You can try the inductor in either location, but I doubt that it will have much effect. To have a larger effect it would have to be be positioned such that it is better coupled to the toroid core as in an image posted by Zephir with a half core glued to the toroid.

I might add that it is not unusual to get ozone from the output of the step up transformer, as the peak voltage can get quite high on the secondary of the so called "radiant" output.

(snip)

Kind Regards
Vortex1

Wait... now I'm really confused.    ???

In the most recent schematic that I have from you, the inductor is positioned as follows: One end of inductor is connected to the Collector of the transistor and to the "cw" winding of the toroid. And the other end of the inductor is connected to one of the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB, to the 4700 pF capacitor and to the bottom of the 24V winding of the output transformer.  Right?

And in the schematic I'm using on my board, one end of the inductor is connected to the Collector of the transistor and to the "cw" winding of the toroid. And the other end of the inductor is connected to one of the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB, to the 4700 pF capacitor and to the bottom of the 24V winding of the output transformer. Right?

What am I missing here? Is there a more recent version that I haven't seen yet?


Oh, perhaps I see. When you first posted your revision, I changed my setup to conform to your revision, and I guess you have not yet seen my revised schematic that conforms to yours. Didn't I post it already though?

EDIT: Yes, I did.   http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3448.msg60977#msg60977



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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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... And here I've altered Itsu's redraw (with my component values and the extra inductor)  to conform more closely to ION's suggestions as to the standard way to draw schematics:      ;)


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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So... now that we've gotten that cleared up     :D     are we now being "hinted" at that this circuit and the relay buzzer circuit are supposed to be ways of generating "nanopulses" of high voltage? And is there some significant use for these pulses in making a "free energy" or self running OU device?

Besides, I mean, how they are normally used in industry to instantiate Faraday's Law of Induction, by making a fast changing magnetic field in some primary coil that will in turn induce even higher voltages in some secondary coil somewhere... sort of like the way switchmode power supplies work in part? Or how solid state Tesla coils work?

Well, when I think of "nanopulses" I expect to see rise-fall times in the single digit nanosecond range, and to make them useful for engineering I expect to see them at stable frequency, duty cycle and peak voltage values. But that's just me, I guess.







---------------------------
"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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I reoriented the inner inductor so it is diametrically horizontal instead of co-axial, connected up the "charger" components, added an LED + 2.2k resistor as load on the charger, and the usual neon on the output of the HV FWB. Also installed a socket (blue 3-terminal screw thing) for the transistor to make it easy to change. Turned the "torrrid" yoke around so that the thinner wire is on the Base drive side for a little more resistance.  (Yes, I've tried several actual toroids but they don't work as well as the yoke. Of course I don't have a magic green toroid to try...)

Running at 2.0v, 610mA input, collector spikes at 186v p-p (not the maximum obtainable, just a friendly setting for now).

Happiness is a warm ...er....  transistor....    :D


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Several minutes after disconnecting power, neon and LED are out, pot cranked to high resistance end.... another "berserk" set of waveforms?    C.C


---------------------------
"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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Thanks TK. I tried the parametric oscillator thing with some rolled up silicone steel as the core. Did not have and significant joy so abandoned. So yeah use the nano pulses at zero amps for some cheap mag switching. In the last vid he was using Pancake coils to pick up.

I don't know how you measure input power with no current. I'm guessing though we'll get bemf from the pickups as we add a load, no idea what the result will be.
   

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Thanks TK. I tried the parametric oscillator thing with some rolled up silicone steel as the core. Did not have and significant joy so abandoned. So yeah use the nano pulses at zero amps for some cheap mag switching. In the last vid he was using Pancake coils to pick up.

I don't know how you measure input power with no current. I'm guessing though we'll get bemf from the pickups as we add a load, no idea what the result will be.

You're welcome!

If there is no input current there is no input power, so you can just disconnect the power supply and watch it keep on running forever.

Wait... it won't keep on running with the power supply disconnected? Well, then, I must conclude that the "no current" idea is incorrect.

Steel is not the best core to use for altering inductance of a coil. Try ferrite, or powdered iron mixed with epoxy and stuffed into a drinking straw, with a copper end cap. This makes a "tuning wand" (google that).



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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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Buy me a cigar
Sure. And for our next project maybe we should try building this:


Yeah sure....

Just add " insult to injury "

The friends I've made know how to find me.

I leave you with a liberal quantity of Erfinder's insect repellent.....


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Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   

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Yeah sure....

Just add " insult to injury "

The friends I've made know how to find me.

I leave you with a liberal quantity of Erfinder's insect repellent.....

I am really sorry if I've offended you in some way. But have you no sense of humour, of irony? Or perhaps it is I who am irony-deficient.

Or perhaps this is yet another club to which I'll never be able to belong.



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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   
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Buy me some coffee
I am really sorry if I've offended you in some way. But have you no sense of humour, of irony? Or perhaps it is I who am irony-deficient.



Well i seen the funny side of it Lol.

Quote
Or perhaps this is yet another club to which I'll never be able to belong.

I think you belong right where you are.
You are an asset to this forum.  O0

The !irony! is T.K,you have actually done more work on this circuit,than those trying to promote it  :o
This speaks volume's of your dedication toward it.
This alone,should have shown the others,that your !skillful! circuit above,was posted as a joke.


Brad
   
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It's turtles all the way down
TK

You are a valuable asset to the forum and I appreciate your humor.

Maybe I'm the one that doesn't belong as it  seems I've caused quite a rucus by asking for a claimant to clarify his claims and by doing a critical analysis of his device.

My better sense told me I should have stayed out of this discussion, trusted my own instincts, but keep my opinions to myself.

I apologize to all for any confusion I've caused.

p.s. if you've got 186 volts peak on the collector, be careful the device is rated for 100 VMax.......there I go again with that nerd talk. sorry.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-26, 16:58:48 by ION »


---------------------------
Just because it has a patent application or is patented does not always mean it really works.
   

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Thanks men. I understand now that there has been considerable "back story" and behind scenes work on this circuit or some unspecified variant of it, and I am just a newcomer without the knowledge that some others are privy to. Hence my attitude that the whole thing is somewhat of a joke. Maybe if I knew what some others know about where this all leads, I wouldn't have this attitude... or maybe it would just make it stronger.  It's not much fun being a mushroom--- being kept in the dark and being fed horsehockey, while trying to grow into something interesting and palatable.

Yes, I know the Data Sheet limits on the Vce, but I'm relying on the shortness of the pulse to keep things intact, and I only operate at those high voltages for short periods. The transistor does heat up. I've only blown one and perhaps degraded another one, so I have two "virgin" ones left, plus the operational one in the circuit now. What is interesting and scary is what the Base is forced to eat. I'm also going to test a mosfet in place of the Darlington at higher input voltages later on tonight probably. I wonder if I can hook up a 4420 gate driver with a mosfet and still get the oscillations. That will really pump up the "HV radiant" if it works.... and if my tiny output transformer can take the strain.


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   
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well
the "situation" at Stefan's has been addressed .

should be a more respectful venue there [hopefully for all projects].

respectfully
Chet K
   

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For a really good time, call on TIP-35C.    ^-^

(2 v @ 120 mA in, pot turned about 1/3 up from high-resistance end, LED+resistor load on "charger", neon load on HVFWB, LED and neon strobing brightly, transistor cold)



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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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More from TIP-35C:

This is with 2.0 v @ 500 mA input. LED+2.2k on Charger output, reading 9.1 volts. Neon on HVFWB output. Both LED and neon glowing brilliantly and strongly. Pot just over halfway up. Transistor staying barely above room temperature, no heatsink installed.

This configuration appears to make higher voltage on the output transformer without the overlimit Vce spikes.


---------------------------
"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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TIP-35C, no neon on output transformer, LED+2.2k on Charger output, 22.0 volts output. 2.0 v @740 mA input, transistor heating up somewhat, put heatsink on it.

Alas, still no sign of "HV Radiant", meaning I can't draw even the smallest arc to a screwdriver or light up a neon with one or no leads connected.



---------------------------
"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   

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You're welcome!

If there is no input current there is no input power, so you can just disconnect the power supply and watch it keep on running forever.

Wait... it won't keep on running with the power supply disconnected? Well, then, I must conclude that the "no current" idea is incorrect.

Steel is not the best core to use for altering inductance of a coil. Try ferrite, or powdered iron mixed with epoxy and stuffed into a drinking straw, with a copper end cap. This makes a "tuning wand" (google that).

Interesting.
   
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