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2017-07-22, 23:53:08
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Author Topic: The Engine,and then the gas  (Read 1037 times)
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Thought i would start this thread,so as to no divert Graham's thread any more than we have,regarding VW engine's.

Just a fun project,and nothing much to do with free energy--but HHO will be included.

The end game here,is to have built an engine from bit's and pieces,that will be running on(or partly there of)HHO gas,where the HHO cell get's it's electrical energy from the engine driven generator it self.

First is to strip down the donor motor-and it dosnt look pretty  :o

The motor build is going to be red necked,and not something that looks like it just came out of a machine shop.
In fact,the whole build will be done,using nothing more than tool's most have in there work shop--E.G,no lathe work/machining.

The idea is to see how efficient we can make an engine,that is built from nothing but scrap part's,lying around in junk pile's.

Once running(if it actually runs),we will then move on to fitting the generator, HHO,and control systems.

PT 1-the strip down.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3e0J4MCbOgc


Brad
   

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It's OK Brad.

As " Domestic science " has become my forte I'll pop in the odd recipe for exhaust manifold cooking!!

 >:-)

Cheers Graham.


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It's turtles all the way down
Ouch! That teardown brings back too many bad memories of cracked pistons on my 67 bus engine.

I was also going through a separation at the time. Maybe I mixed all the emotions up. She got the 67 after it was rebuilt and strong.  :-[



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Just going to throw this little project in here as well.

The intention is to get it up and running on a vapor fuel system--if it runs again.

The VW project is still going on,and an update to come soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPCL6C2E0CY


Brad
   

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Excellent video and very educational for the weekend engineer with limited means O0

Regards

mike 8)


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Quote from: Centraflow
Excellent video and very educational for the weekend engineer with limited means O0

Aye, I'll second that!  Looking forward to the continuing series!

Small air-cooled engines are fascinating.  Bringing the old, neglected
ones back to life is very rewarding.


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"Truth: the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death." - John Gilmore (1935- ) Author
   
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@tinman
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPCL6C2E0CY

I built my first CHP unit about 40 years ago using a similar motor out of an old kick start washing machine. I used a belt drive to an old 52 merc generator to charge batteries for lighting and built my own exhaust tube shell heat exchanger to scavenge heat for my little shop. Damn thing would chug away for days and never miss a beat.

In my opinion the way to go is to use natural gas as a fuel on stationary engines. The setup is easy and you simply add a regulated gas supply upstream of the carb. I used a secondary linkage from the carb to a small ball valve to control the natural gas flow thus air/fuel ratio. I turn off the gasoline to the carb and open the natural gas valve to transition from gas to natural gas.

Another neat trick is to modulate the burn temperature with water vapor. The engine can run super lean without overheating or pre-detonating if water vapor is added. I added another linkage to a small ball valve feeding the water to an old carb jet to vaporize the water upstream of the carb/regulator. Your looking for a nice even light brown or tan color on your plugs when the combustion temperature is correct.

I would also ditch the stock ignition system and use the points to activate a high voltage joule thief circuit using an ignition coil. Another better option is the water spark plug circuit which I have tested and it works very well... sounds like a damn rifle when you get it right.



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vapor/Gas indeed
here I believe the goal is an HHO run...

 O0
   

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Is it really true that adding water to the combustion chamber of an ICE, increases the mechanical power of that engine?
If "yes" - by what mechanism?
   
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Verpies
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Is it really true that adding water to the combustion chamber of an ICE, increases the mechanical power of that engine?
If "yes" - by what mechanism?

To some extent it's not what most think. First, adding water starts removing all the carbon build up inside the cylinder, valves and spark plug which does give more power and better efficiency. The carbon build up acts like ice on an air plane wing and creates unwanted turbulence. The carbon can also cause pre-detonation which prevents running leaner hotter fuel air ratio's.

It's not common knowledge but most engines run rich (more fuel than needed) to help cool the cylinder and keep the catalytic converter hot at low power. HHO acts like nitrous oxide and provides a faster burn which also means a more powerful cleaner burn. Think of it as adding a small amount of gasoline to a wood fire to help it burn hotter and faster producing less smoke or particulate carbon. Essentially we want a fast clean very hot burn of the fuel in the cylinder and adding more fuel which does not burn fast and hot is a losing proposition.

So HHO causes a clean fast burn and water injection modulates the burn to control high cylinder temperature. So far as the Stan Meyers and other stories go it had little to do with HHO it was his circuit and electrolyzer that produced massive amounts of Hydrogen with little or no input. Stan simply mated an OU circuit to an electrolyzer because that is what he knew. He could have just as well built a motionless OU device without all the HHO nonsense but there is a very steep learning curve involved. You need to look at timelines... inventors start with fairly primitive motional devices then progress to motionless devices then a select few move on to anti-gravity devices.

Think about it... they are learning as they go. One discovery leads to more understanding which leads to new ideas which leads to much more understanding and the whole process starts feeding on itself. Soon everything starts moving so fast they have moved a decade into the future of technology in the span of months. It is no wonder so few can make any sense of it because they are still stuck in the past dealing with antiquated concepts. How do you explain anti-gravity concepts to a person still trying to rub two sticks together to produce fire... can't be done.


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Is it really true that adding water to the combustion chamber of an ICE, increases the mechanical power of that engine?
If "yes" - by what mechanism?

It allows the engine to be operated at higher manifold pressures and/or leaner fuel-air mixtures without destructive knocking.  It does this by slowing down the combustion so that the fuel-air mixture burns rather than detonates.


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"The easiest person to fool is yourself" -- Richard Feynman
   
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I can recall an ultrasonic water/fuel emulsifier on a TV program called tomorrow's world which switched on once the engine temp was high enough.
In the experimental stages they reported upto 33% water could be used. It also cleaned the combustion chamber of all the carbon buildup.
It must have been bought up by big oil as it died before it was available.
Late 70's or early 80's if I recall it.
   

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Is it really true that adding water to the combustion chamber of an ICE, increases the mechanical power of that engine?
If "yes" - by what mechanism?


Whilst agreeing with the comments made, and owning a few engines fitted with water injection of the " teen " period of the 20th century. I personally feel the question hasn't been answered definitively.

A good answer could be found by running a small motor with a friction brake ( rope over pulley and weight ) , adding weights until RPM's start to drop, and then using a " micro fogger " to allow the water mist into the manifold and see if the engine can drive exta load.

Cheers Grum.


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The smartphone app I have called Vibrations works pretty slick to measure RPM.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.julian.apps.VibrationsAds&hl=en

I also use this sound oscilloscope app which could detect the tone of the exhaust to measure RPM. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.bolshakovdenis.soundoscilloscope&hl=en

Frequency is cycles per second times 60 gives cycles per minute and an exhaust stoke occurs every two revolutions of the crank in a four stroke engine. Therefore the exhaust frequency x 60 x 2 should give RPM...theoretically.


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"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

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Hi Brad.

Could you post some pictures of the magneto please? ( from the little engine in your video )

Over here the common ones were Villiers and Wico, later Wipac.... Easy to graft an HT coil from a lawnmower as a cheap repair.

That engine might be a prime candidate for a simple water vapour load test?   ;)

Cheers Grum.


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Just going to throw this little project in here as well.

The intention is to get it up and running on a vapor fuel system--if it runs again.

The VW project is still going on,and an update to come soon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPCL6C2E0CY


Brad

Brad, did you see this one?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c5oK0Y-1UnY

Ron
   
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If I remember correctly the magneto and points are behind the flywheel like most old dirt bikes. It's not fun breaking a rusted flywheel loose and less fun adjusting the points. As well the carb has no float or needle and seat so you turn on the gas with the main valve and start kicking before it floods. The fuel/air mixture is set at the carb with the knob on top which is a metering valve. Note the higher the gas tank the more fuel due to gravity as it is a simple gravity fed carb.

The upside is the fuel/air ratio can easily be adjusted at the carb with the metering valve on the fly unlike most modern carburetors.


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"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

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... and water injection modulates the burn to control high cylinder temperature.
...and how high does the temperature get in there?
   

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Quote from: Verpies
...and how high does the temperature get in there?

Very interesting discussion regarding "lean mixtures."


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...and how high does the temperature get in there?

Hot enough to turn Aluminium into " soft putty " !!   :D


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Buy me a cigar
If I remember correctly the magneto and points are behind the flywheel like most old dirt bikes. It's not fun breaking a rusted flywheel loose and less fun adjusting the points. As well the carb has no float or needle and seat so you turn on the gas with the main valve and start kicking before it floods. The fuel/air mixture is set at the carb with the knob on top which is a metering valve. Note the higher the gas tank the more fuel due to gravity as it is a simple gravity fed carb.

The upside is the fuel/air ratio can easily be adjusted at the carb with the metering valve on the fly unlike most modern carburetors.

In the 20's, here in the UK, there were several stationary engines that didn't use a float chamber for the carburettor. The fuel tank was positioned so that when full the fuel was just on the venturi level. A small Brass/Bronze ball was located under the main jet to stop the fuel from returning to the tank. These engines also had an atmospherically operated air valve to create a good vacuum between the carb and mechanically operated inlet valve.


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Hot enough to turn Aluminium into " soft putty " !!   :D
That is not the info, I am after.  Your answer suggests that the temperature in the combustion chamber is around the melting point of aluminum (660ºC).
I really would like to know what is temperature of the burning air/fuel mixture in the combustion chamber - not the temperature of the combustion chamber's walls.

I expect the temperature of the burning air/fuel mixture to be much higher, because these gasses have much lower density than the aluminum metal, so they must have a much higher temperature to compensate for this density difference, if they can transfer enough heat to the aluminum to get its temperature above 600ºC.

There is a difference between heat and temperature. That's how it is possible to freeze your butt in the Earth's thermosphere despite it having a temperature above 2000ºC.
   
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well diesel EGT can run around 1300F at the turbo inlet [higher temps are not good /sustainable without engine damage

would suffice to say temp of combustion chamber is quite close to this ?



of  course there have been claims of water contributing to combustion when certain metal soaps are added [extremely small quantities]
it was claimed that the soaps lowered the temp of waters bond strength[disassociation] to approx 1000F.
the above was run on a dyno at 35KW load and 35-50% water [same output power as undiluted  fuel strength].

the Japanese also had/have a claim for this with some type of proprietary conditioning of the water [upto 50%
in an oil burner /space heater

   

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well diesel EGT can run around 1300F at the turbo inlet [higher temps are not good /sustainable without engine damage
The turbo inlet does not constitute a combustion chamber, or does it?

Anyway, 1300ºF seems too low to me because open kerosene flame at atmospheric pressure burns at over 1800ºF (and a gasoline flame even a little higher) so it seems odd to me that a free raging flame would have a higher temperature than a flame contained in the combustion chamber (at the beginning of the power cycle, before expansion cooling occurs) which arises from a compressed, premixed and close to the stochiometric fuel/air ratio.
   
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@verpies
Quote
Anyway, 1300ºF seems too low to me because open kerosene flame at atmospheric pressure burns at over 1800ºF (and a gasoline flame even a little higher) so it seems odd to me that a free raging flame would have a higher temperature than a flame contained in the combustion chamber (at the beginning of the power cycle, before expansion cooling occurs) which arises from a compressed, premixed and close to the stochiometric fuel/air ratio.

There is nothing like hands on experience and when you see the exhaust inlet to a turbo and the turbo case glowing red hot at night as an engine screams at full power you begin to understand the reality of the situation. I had a 1600cc dual port head VW engine in a sand rail burning 90% methanol, 5% octane booster and 5% gas. It had 8" exhaust pipes bent upward like a dragster and when I bagged the throttle there were 8" blue flames coming from each pipe. The plugs had a white residue on them and you could literally smell the heat baking the engine. The engine would not have lasted 1 hour running that hot so I added water injection to cool the cylinders moderating the burn while still generating ungodly power for such a small engine. It generated so much torque when I dumped the clutch it started shearing the 5 hardened pins mating the crank to the flywheel. Keep in mind this was 37 years ago and I have leaned a few tricks since then.

Googling stuff is fine but there is no replacing hands on experience like Tinman is doing. They don't teach that stuff in books... you make it up as you go along. The fact is this is not an open flame nor can it be compared to one, it's apples and oranges. We are speaking of a very fast clean burn where the internal pressure rise generates excess heat. Not a slow burn and I have first hand experience with pulse jet engines and pulse detonation engines. If you ever achieved a true detonation with a lean burn your engine heads would be laying on the neighbors lawn and the crank embedded in your driveway...trust me on this. I achieved a few pulses with my pulse detonation engine and it was rattling peoples windows down the block. You cannot even possibly imagine the sound that thing made and I swear my bones were rattling. I ran that bad boy up achieving true detonation one time and I realized I was in way the hell over my head. Have you ever shot a .50 cal ?, a detonation engine is 1000 times as loud and makes a .50 cal look like a BB gun.

So it's probably easier you understanding there are things you may never understand because until you have actually seen it and felt it up close and personal words just fail to describe the reality of the situation. Google is not reality... hands on right in front of you is reality. Thank god there are still some "old school" guys here.

Maybe me and Tinman can show you boys how the big dogs play. I have a few projects on the go but if Tinman wants to PM me all my engineering experience is at his disposal for this project. We can start here...http://www.rexresearch.com/singh/singh.htm. I proved Singh's theories are valid a decade ago with working engines. So I propose we turn Tinman's old 1920's washing machine engine into an HHO devouring spawn of Satan engine from hell.

We need to start doing some really crazy shite here boys. Apparently I'm just not happy unless I'm up to my elbows in motor oil with my eyebrows singed. Oh the life of a redneck... take care boys.



« Last Edit: 2017-06-03, 05:06:38 by Allcanadian »


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"Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people." - Eleanor Roosevelt.

There is infinitely more that we do not know, than we know.
   
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