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Author Topic: Generating System  (Read 13932 times)

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Hi Gyula.

Are you describing " armature reaction " ?

In the very old days, even before me, they used to have adjustable brushgear to reduce arcing at the commutator under load conditions. Later machines were fitted with " interpoles " these coils carried the load current and effectively " straightened " the main lines of magnetic flux.

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Graham,

Yes, a kind of.  In a generator Dave described I think the coil field that appears in the moment the load current is drawn, invariably influences the originally balanced magnetic field of the setup with which the minimal current draw of the prime mover have already been established, i.e. cogging between relatively huge attract forces has been minimized by equally huge repel forces. 

Now, if you can adjust the position of the magnets while a certain amount of load current is drawn, then the cogging could also be minimized I believe, maybe to a similar input current draw than earlier with the no load case.  But this may involve a certain, limited output current range because too big load current would unbalance the fields, causing an increase in cogging. 
You mention coils that created 'interpoles': I can imagine the use of such as a means of dynamically adapting the load current to the minimized cogging operation.

However, Dave has not referred to using such extra coils, maybe they are not needed at all because of his multifilar generator coils: he wrote his rotor speeds up under load above a certain RPM the prime mover brings the rotor up,  this may also compensate for Lenz law which should normally be also present.  Maybe such dream has become reality... 8)

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It's turtles all the way down
Adding magnets to eliminate cogging is a very old idea. I remember seeing patents to this effect many decades ago and I'm sure the method goes back much further as can be found in a patent search.

While cogging can be minimised, it does not (to my knowledge)  negate the LENZ effect in high speed operation.

just google "patent elimination of cogging in motor generator"

IMHO based on testing,  in a well designed motor or generator with appropriate return magnetic structure, cogging does not increase input power requirement because the force spent entering the cog zone is returned to the rotor on the way out of the cog zone.
« Last Edit: 2018-08-11, 17:37:35 by ion »


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Dear Ion,

Dave mentioned that Lenz law is negated as per written in the Coil for electromagnets Tesla patent and this is why he uses the multifilar generator coils.  Only measurements can tell whether this is so or not.  I have not read from him that cogging compensation involves negating Lenz law. 
Thanks for the patent search.

Gyula

PS  There is the https://tinyurl.com/  freely usable site for making very long url addresses much shorter.  This is what can become from your above link:  https://tinyurl.com/y6usrqac   
Feel free replacing the long url in your post and the formatting of the post will be ok.
 
   
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Dear Gyula

As you already know, the negation of Lenz's law would be candidate for Nobel prize in electrodynamics/physics and would be a game changer revolutionizing energy production.

I am not familiar with the Tesla claim (if it exists) or why it has not heretofore been exploited.

This tale has a lot of drama emerging so we will need to be patient, wait till that stuff dies down and see where it goes. Large claims require suitable proofs.

Thanks for the tool.

regards


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Dear Ion,

I simply repeated what Dave wrote at the other two forums recently, that were his words. This is why I mentioned measurements.
Sorry if I sounded to fully endorse his opinion. 

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Dear Ion,

I simply repeated what Dave wrote at the other two forums recently, that were his words. This is why I mentioned measurements.
Sorry if I sounded to fully endorse his opinion. 

Gyula

Dear Gyula

No problem, I was not challenging your post, and I understand that you were not fully endorsing his opinion. My reply was just meant to be a general reality check for all of us (myself included) so we don't underestimate the magnitude of the claim. I agree, good measurements will be telling.

kind regards


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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TinMan,

Your analysis makes sense to me.  When the sulfation is quite
fresh and nearly amorphous (not yet hardened) it is easily reversed
and the energy stored within the plates becomes available.

Thanks for the link.  Good article.


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TinMan,

Your analysis makes sense to me.  When the sulfation is quite
fresh and nearly amorphous (not yet hardened) it is easily reversed
and the energy stored within the plates becomes available.

Thanks for the link.  Good article.

Yes, good article

This effect is well known in battery engineering, and many of us that have over many years used LA  batteries e.g. in cars and electric vehicles are quite aware of it, and why we have to turn a  jaundiced eye towards those that watch seemingly dead batteries miraculously recover when hooked to their "special motors".  Better to use a quality capacitor in shorter term testing if OU is suspected. It is notoriously tricky to predict the  performance of LA batteries when sulphation and temperature effects come into play.

Because I purchased a E15 GE Electric Tractor many years ago I felt it was a good idea to obtain a copy of "Secrets Of Lead Acid Batteries" by Thomas J. Lindsay. It is a clearly written pamphlet of 44 pages that includes a section on types of sulphation on pages 27 and 28. Highly recommended.

I also was lucky to inherit some good textbooks and notes on battery design and manufacturing from a friend who worked in R&D at a local LA battery manufacturer after he retired, however the internet can be your friend.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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i should add
we always had an open invitation to go see and witness Daves unit running.

I am certain, [when he gets settled in at his new place] that invitation is still open.
he has offered at least a half dozen times to allow Steve to come and see.
   

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Adding magnets to eliminate cogging is a very old idea. I remember seeing patents to this effect many decades ago and I'm sure the method goes back much further as can be found in a patent search.

While cogging can be minimised, it does not (to my knowledge)  negate the LENZ effect in high speed operation.

just google "patent elimination of cogging in motor generator"

IMHO based on testing,  in a well designed motor or generator with appropriate return magnetic structure, cogging does not increase input power requirement because the force spent entering the cog zone is returned to the rotor on the way out of the cog zone.

The only way to truly eliminate all cogging-->

First i took a large ferrite toroid.
Then wound 220 turns of .55mm copper wire on every quarter of the toroid,so as we have 4 separate coils.
Next i fitted a diametrically magnetised cylinder magnet to the motor shaft,and fixed the motor to the carrier frame.
Then add a FWBR to every coil.

With this setup,every time you place a load on one coil,it increases the output of the other coils.
IOW,one coil loaded along puts out very little power. If a load is then placed on a second coil,the output of the first increases by a factor of 10. This continues until all 4 coils are loaded.

The odd bit comes when the last coil is loaded.
This is when all 4 coils output the most power for RPM of the rotor magnet,but when the last coil is loaded,the P/in to the prime mover drops to nearly half  :o
So what happens when that last coil is loaded?--anyone know what might be going on here?

I did not expect the efficiency of this generator to be that good.
Although it took me near 2 hours to wind the coils around the core,they are still pretty rough,even though i tried as hard as i could to keep them wound neatly.
But even so,the efficiency is calculated to be 86% with pure resistive loads placed on the coils(10 ohm resistors across each coil).

Anyway,my fun for the day.


Brad


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Hi Brad,

I think when the 4th coil is also loaded, the magnetic asymmetry caused by the previous 3 coils gets balanced and the rotor magnet can see real symmetry flux wise only then.  On asymmetry I mean that the counter flux caused by the first 3 coils leaves a 'gap'  where the magnet may get stronger attracted then to the other parts of the toroid and the 'gap' disappears when the 4th counter flux appears by the 4th load.
Maybe this could be tested I am not sure though when you load only 2 opposite coils, say, the ones at 12 and 6 or at 9 and 3 o'clock positions.

Gyula
   

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Good morning Brad.

Is your latest " creation " a two magnet version of the Tesla patent drawing I posted here?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3649.msg69015#msg69015

Cheers Grum.


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Good morning Brad.

Is your latest " creation " a two magnet version of the Tesla patent drawing I posted here?

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=3649.msg69015#msg69015

Cheers Grum.

The one above is just 4 coils on a toroid,with a diametrically magnetized magnet on the motor shaft
Standard induction stuff.

Oh-but absolutely cogless  O0


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The one above is just 4 coils on a toroid,with a diametrically magnetized magnet on the motor shaft
Standard induction stuff.

Oh-but absolutely cogless  O0

Looks like a Gramme ring linked only by the rectifiers.   Would it be more effective to link the coil ends to form a closed loop then use these connections to tap output with your rectifiers ?   It seems your current output would increase as well as keeping the system balanced...

Interesting build !   I've built a couple gramme rings and may still have one laying around... your having to much fun ! 

Gramme's patent was a way to cure a problem when a generator was connected to a motor, more so when the motor was relieved of its load suddenly the feedback would tend to destroy either motor or generator.    Gramme stated that " the reaction of current upon itself is more energetic than that which created it"   https://patents.google.com/patent/US269281A/en?oq=us269281

Ed
   

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Looks like a Gramme ring linked only by the rectifiers.   Would it be more effective to link the coil ends to form a closed loop then use these connections to tap output with your rectifiers ?   It seems your current output would increase as well as keeping the system balanced...

Interesting build !   I've built a couple gramme rings and may still have one laying around... your having to much fun ! 

Gramme's patent was a way to cure a problem when a generator was connected to a motor, more so when the motor was relieved of its load suddenly the feedback would tend to destroy either motor or generator.    Gramme stated that " the reaction of current upon itself is more energetic than that which created it"   https://patents.google.com/patent/US269281A/en?oq=us269281

Ed

Yes,the next step is to hook all coils up in series-phase correct,and then rectify.
I only did it this way first so as i could see what happens as each coil was loaded individually.


Brad


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Hi Brad,

An addition to my above reply #186, I think of toroidal core saturation when I mention 'gap': the core becomes less saturated under the unloaded 4th coil so the permeability under the 4th coil remains higher than under the rest hence the magnet attraction to the core section under the 4th unloaded coil becomes stronger, this causes an unusual 'cogging' that manifests in higher current draw.

There is a similar possibility to explain the current draw reduction: it is also due to core saturation when the 4th coil is loaded the overall permeability of the toroidal core becomes much less, hence the overall attract force between the magnet and the core becomes less than in the unsaturated case.  Less attract force even if it is equal radially all around causes less drag for the prime mover.

Gyula
   

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Hi Brad,

An addition to my above reply #186, I think of toroidal core saturation when I mention 'gap': the core becomes less saturated under the unloaded 4th coil so the permeability under the 4th coil remains higher than under the rest hence the magnet attraction to the core section under the 4th unloaded coil becomes stronger, this causes an unusual 'cogging' that manifests in higher current draw.

There is a similar possibility to explain the current draw reduction: it is also due to core saturation when the 4th coil is loaded the overall permeability of the toroidal core becomes much less, hence the overall attract force between the magnet and the core becomes less than in the unsaturated case.  Less attract force even if it is equal radially all around causes less drag for the prime mover.

Gyula

Hi Gyula

The magnet im using is a (quite weak) ferrite magnet,and the core is a rather large ferrite core.

When i look at a similar tape wound core for 240v/ac input,and look at the loads pulled from the secondaries,i just dont see enough power being transformed here to cause saturation.

What i do see is the same effect as my LAG uses to opperate,where the coils them self are inducing there magnetic fields into the one either side. I see bucking fields st work here,which are out of phase to that of the rotor magnet.

I will set up a sense coil,so as we can get some form of timing artangement going here.


Brad


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Yes,the next step is to hook all coils up in series-phase correct,and then rectify.
I only did it this way first so as i could see what happens as each coil was loaded individually.


Brad

I thought you'd see the prime mover P/in increase if they were hooked in series? Have you tried without a load and just shorting individual coils? It reminds me of this shorted coil demo. https://youtu.be/YUoyuiQTrRA

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The discussion goes weird once again.

Dave responds strangely to a request for evidence.

New guy NROC comes across as a cheerleader for
the proponents.

Bistander attempts to regain focus in the discussion.

The Drama is fascinating to observe.  It continues to
look like naught more than a game.



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"Truth: the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death." - John Gilmore (1935- ) Author
   

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Buy me some coffee
The discussion goes weird once again.

Dave responds strangely to a request for evidence.

New guy NROC comes across as a cheerleader for
the proponents.

Bistander attempts to regain focus in the discussion.

The Drama is fascinating to observe.  It continues to
look like naught more than a game.

Lol
Better than days of our lives.


Brad


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The venom (some would call it hate) just never ends
does it?

Apparently Bistander has been banned.

As is the fate of those who know more and ask
the difficult questions.

One can only wonder when the demonstration of the
generator to offer proof will take place.  It seems to
have been delayed for some reason/s.


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"Truth: the most deadly weapon ever discovered by humanity. Capable of destroying entire perceptual sets, cultures, and realities. Outlawed by all governments everywhere. Possession is normally punishable by death." - John Gilmore (1935- ) Author
   
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Hi muDped,

No he was not banned. The "deal" he offered was he leaves the 3BGS thread if either they demonstrate correct OU measurements or they admit they had lied. Well, they immediately declared they lied i.e.no OU.  So Bistander moved out from that thread. He mainly posts here now:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/11933-open-discussion-projects-forum-39.html#post312417

By the way, it seems that there are different forum rules valid for Matt only, by which he can freely offend any members over there. Very unfortunate. 

Gyula
   

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Thanks Gyula for the update.

Agreed.


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Thanks Gyula for the update.

Agreed.

So what happened to Matts big ou generator he was going to show over a week ago?

Things never turned out the way he though is my guess.
Cant show a device that dosnt deliver what he promised it would  C.C


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