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Author Topic: The Non-Sense Pulse Motor.  (Read 5790 times)

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Brad,

I have already explained how i think the average currents are flowing, see my earlier posts.





Concerning your water flow circuit,

With the valve closed, the water flows through csr1 untill C1 is full, this is the start position.

start:
# When the valve is opened, water starts to flow through csr1 and water starts to flow from C1, both passing
  through csr2 (so we can add up the flows from C1 and csr1).
# When the valve closes, flow through csr2 stops, but the flow through csr1 still continuous to fill up C1,
  then the flow stops (start position).

The water flown through csr2 when the valve was open is the same as the water that was stored in C1 together
with the flow through csr1.

Itsu

Regarding the water flow circuit,the question was very simple.

Flow meter 1(CSR1) has an average water flow of 5 LPM

Through continuous operation,what is the average water flow through flow meter 2 (CSR2) ?

We are not talking about peak flow through flow meter 2 here,we are talking average flow over time.

Quote
We are looking at the current flows here, not sure why "P/in is V x I" is pulled into it as i said nothing about that.
My DMM shows indeed the same average current as i see through csr1, so nothing goes out of the window.

Because the voltage is a constant.
So,if we are using 12 volts,then P/in is 12v x (in my case) 36mA--the 1 ohm resistor has 36mV across it,and the DMM also says 36mA
P/in is 432mW

Now, we have !on average! (in my case) 72mA through CSR2,which is also at 12 volt's.
This means that the !apparent! output  is 864mW.

But anyway,if you could just answer the water circuit question,then we can take it from there.
And to clarify,lets say we have a water pressure of 12 psi(our voltage),and of course our flow rate(amps) through flow sensor 1 of 5 LPM.

If anyone else would like to answer the question,please feel free.


Brad


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Quote
Regarding the water flow circuit,the question was very simple.

Flow meter 1(CSR1) has an average water flow of 5 LPM

Through continuous operation,what is the average water flow through flow meter 2 (CSR2) ?

We are not talking about peak flow through flow meter 2 here,we are talking average flow over time.


I told you,  its the same, so that would be 5 LPM


Itsu
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

There is no argument that a higher average current flows through CSR2 than that of CSR1.

How/where has this been determined?
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
So i had an idea in regards to this power measurement issue.

My claim is that there is more power flowing through the coil during each pulse than there is being delivered by the source-that being my power supply.

So far i have shown this by way of scope measurements,and heat dissipated by the CVRs,where CVR1 dissipates less heat than CVR2,meaning more current flowing through CVR2,and thus the coil.

Brad

Let's try to clear some things up regarding power measurements and current readings.

First, average current is used to find Pin when the source is DC. So with a 1R CVR/CSR we find Pin by: Iavg x VDC. Iavg can be found with a DMM across the CVR.

One can determine Iavg at other points in the circuit, but it is of little interest in terms of power measurements.

Second, if one is wanting to determine the average power dissipated in a pure resistance (such as a CVR/CSR), then we use the RMS current through that resistor (not the average current).

The fact that CVR2 dissipates double the average power compared to CVR1 is interesting, but is otherwise quite unremarkable. It certainly does not indicate that the circuitry after the battery (not including the FG) is somehow generating extra power above and beyond what the battery is supplying.

Third, average power is what matters. Peak powers can exceed average input power, but at the end of the day it comes down to accounting for the average power in all components that can supply and dissipate power.

In summary:

Average power from a DC supply (Pin): Iavg x VDC
Average power in a pure resistance: Irms2 x R, OR Vrms2 / R
Average power in any device: AVG[v(t) x i(t)]
   

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How/where has this been determined?

Really?
How about the last 4 to 5 pages of this thread  O0

I have shown this in all my video's,as has Itsu.
I have also posted many screenshots showing this-EG below.


Brad


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Let's try to clear some things up regarding power measurements and current readings.



One can determine Iavg at other points in the circuit, but it is of little interest in terms of power measurements.




Quote
First, average current is used to find Pin when the source is DC. So with a 1R CVR/CSR we find Pin by: Iavg x VDC. Iavg can be found with a DMM across the CVR.

Agreed  O0

Quote
Second, if one is wanting to determine the average power dissipated in a pure resistance (such as a CVR/CSR), then we use the RMS current through that resistor (not the average current).

Once again-agreed  O0

Quote
The fact that CVR2 dissipates double the average power compared to CVR1 is interesting, but is otherwise quite unremarkable.

Using the circuit below,where the input current from the FG is a meere 5mA for 5% of a complete cycle,can you explain as to why the !average! current flowing through CSR2 is near double that of what flows through CSR1,when the voltage is a constant .

Quote
Third, average power is what matters. Peak powers can exceed average input power, but at the end of the day it comes down to accounting for the average power in all components that can supply and dissipate power.

Agreed once again.
So once again,looking at the circuit below,from which CVR would you use the average current value from to determine the average power being sent to the coil,where the voltage is a constant ?.

Quote
In summary:

Average power from a DC supply (Pin): Iavg x VDC
Average power in a pure resistance: Irms2 x R, OR Vrms2 / R
Average power in any device: AVG[v(t) x i(t)]

Agreed  O0

Brad


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
I don't know what you're showing in those screen shots.

Can you describe what the signals and measurements are and how it is shown that Icsr2(avg)>Icsr1(avg)?
   
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Thanks for posting the SS model Brad. So this one sorta misses out on rotor gen action. Does it matter much, or is the flyback in both setups the main goal? Just wondering.
Now on the rotor model, the coil is over the end of the magnet. Is there a reason why its not in the SS setup? Or does it just work better that way in each case?

Been thinking on all of this a bit. At first was thinking, hmm. Just using energy of the coil to move, to say, the magnets field and would there be any advantage to that. But then thought, are we getting a combined coil and magnet field that ends up greater than what the coil produced during on time. Anyway, nice idea.

Ive seen some ferrite cores that are thin tubes. There is a lot of ferrite shapes and sizes and was looking for them for the SS orbo, orbonbon, and wondered if that may be useful here in later developments as all goes well.

Mags
   

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I don't know what you're showing in those screen shots.

Can you describe what the signals and measurements are and how it is shown that Icsr2(avg)>Icsr1(avg)?

Yes,below are the circuit and scope probe placement for each.
This was when i was running the circuit at 12VDC


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Using the circuit below,where the input current from the FG is a meere 5mA for 5% of a complete cycle,can you explain as to why the !average! current flowing through CSR2 is near double that of what flows through CSR1,when the voltage is a constant .
What do you mean by "voltage is constant"?
The coil stores some energy, then it releases the energy.

Quote
So once again,looking at the circuit below,from which CVR would you use the average current value from to determine the average power being sent to the coil,where the voltage is a constant ?.
You've already determined the "power being sent to the coil" (to the whole circuit really) when you calculated Pin, and you used CVR1.

Here is what I would be asking myself and subsequently determining if I suspected the circuit was somehow running overunity:

"Does the sum of the average power dissipation of all the circuit elements (excluding the battery) equal the average power the battery is putting out?"

If you wish to know the Volt-Amps (apparent power) in the coil itself, then you need a CVR in series with the coil (not in the emitter), and perform a AVG[v(t) x i(t)] measurement with the scope.
   

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What do you mean by "voltage is constant"?
The coil stores some energy, then it releases the energy.
You've already determined the "power being sent to the coil" (to the whole circuit really) when you calculated Pin, and you used CVR1.

Here is what I would be asking myself and subsequently determining if I suspected the circuit was somehow running overunity:

"Does the sum of the average power dissipation of all the circuit elements (excluding the battery) equal the average power the battery is putting out?"

If you wish to know the Volt-Amps (apparent power) in the coil itself, then you need a CVR in series with the coil (not in the emitter), and perform a AVG[v(t) x i(t)] measurement with the scope.

Would not the power being sent to the coil be the voltage across C1 x the average current through CSR2 ?,as CSR2 shows both the current delivered by C2,and also the power supply.

The voltage is a constant 12.1 volts,both across the cap,and across the coil when the transistor is on.
I have supplied a scope shot of the differential voltage across the coil,where we see the voltage across the cap minus V/drop across CSR2.


Brad


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The Volt-Amps (apparent power) IN THE COIL is:

AVG[v(t)(across the coil) x i(t)(through the coil)]

Average current is used for Pin, and only when the source is DC. Other than that, we don't use average current.

CSR2 only tells us the current in the emitter of Q1. The emitter current is made up from two other currents; the base current and the collector current. The collector current is made from two other currents; the coil current and the diode current.

So one should realize that CSR2 is far removed from providing an accurate reading of the coil current alone.

The above assumes that the circuit is per Itsu's, where the circuit common is between the two csr's.
   

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If you wish to know the Volt-Amps (apparent power) in the coil itself, then you need a CVR in series with the coil (not in the emitter), and perform a AVG[v(t) x i(t)] measurement with the scope.

Not that i see any difference in having the CSR on the positive side of the coil to that having it on the emmiter,i will give that a try tonight.

Thanks for your time on this Poynt


Brad


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Ok guys,here it is.

This is my design,and has not been tested yet--still to wind L1

Dimensions are up to you.
My magnet is a neo N52  65mm long x 19mm diameter
L1 is also this long,and will be 500 turns of .77mm wire
L2 and L3 are 20mm wide each,for a total coil length of 115mm,as each end coil former is 5mm thick.
L2 and L3 are also 500 turns,using .4mm wire.

Make sure that the pvc sleeve and steel pipe continue past the magnet as far as your L2 and L3 coils do--> so L2 and L3 are not atop the magnet.

Operation.

L1 is pulsed with a DC current that creates a magnetic field opposite to that of the PMs field--both current value and duty cycle determined through testing.
L2 and L3 are induced by L1.
Flyback is caught and used from all three coils.
The flyback will be large due to the complete reversal of the magnetic field through all 3 coils.


Brad
Well that's a decent bloody neo and a big arse coil to match. Pretty easy to print something up. ONce the new printer arrives I want to see what effect a greater mass of iron will have in the drive coil as well.
   

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Thanks for posting the SS model Brad. So this one sorta misses out on rotor gen action. Does it matter much, or is the flyback in both setups the main goal? Just wondering.
Now on the rotor model, the coil is over the end of the magnet. Is there a reason why its not in the SS setup? Or does it just work better that way in each case?

Been thinking on all of this a bit. At first was thinking, hmm. Just using energy of the coil to move, to say, the magnets field and would there be any advantage to that. But then thought, are we getting a combined coil and magnet field that ends up greater than what the coil produced during on time. Anyway, nice idea.

Ive seen some ferrite cores that are thin tubes. There is a lot of ferrite shapes and sizes and was looking for them for the SS orbo, orbonbon, and wondered if that may be useful here in later developments as all goes well.

Mags

I left the magnet short so as we can slide in a shorter magnet in each end to see what difference it makes during testing.

I am hoping that this design will totally remove all magnetic fields at L2 and L3 during the pulse input.


Brad


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Not that i see any difference in having the CSR on the positive side of the coil to that having it on the emmiter,i will give that a try tonight.

Thanks for your time on this Poynt


Brad
You can go through the exercise, but I don't think you will see much. In fact, I don't think the coil is doing very much in the current circuit.

The vast majority of power transfer is occurring between the battery and CSR2 (CSR2 at 10 Ohms is the largest consumer of power (80 to 90%) in your circuit).

If you are trying to get maximum power to the LED's then this circuit isn't going to do it in the current configuration.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Without any tuning or tweaking, here are a couple of simple things to maximize power transfer to the LED's:

1) remove both CSR's. (with csr1 removed, you probably no longer need C1)
2) increase C2 to about 2200u.
   

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You can go through the exercise, but I don't think you will see much. In fact, I don't think the coil is doing very much in the current circuit.

The vast majority of power transfer is occurring between the battery and CSR2 (CSR2 at 10 Ohms is the largest consumer of power (80 to 90%) in your circuit).

If you are trying to get maximum power to the LED's then this circuit isn't going to do it in the current configuration.

The CSRs in my circuit are 1 ohm.

The LEDs are only to burn off the inductive kickback energy.
The main goal here is to send enough current through the coil to neutralise the magnetic field of the PM core.

This anomaly with more current flowing through CSR2 than that of CSR1 was only found during coil testing,and i thought it interesting enough to post--and it went on from there.


Brad


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
The CSRs in my circuit are 1 ohm.

Brad

Could you double-check that with a meter perhaps? I don't think you should be getting a saw-tooth wave form on CSR1 with a 1R value.
   

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Could you double-check that with a meter perhaps? I don't think you should be getting a saw-tooth wave form on CSR1 with a 1R value.

I always check there value before using them in a circuit  O0
As C1 is 10,000uF in my circuit,and frequency is 50Hz,and a duty cycle of 5%,then i think a sawtooth wave form is quite normal.

I have swapped the resistors positions around,(which is now a habit i have),and the results are the same.


Brad


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
OK, with 10,000u and 1R, yes is the same time constant as 10R with 1000u. (You might want to include all component values on your schematics).

Still doesn't quite compute with the current peaks. With 1R on the emitter, you should have more than 1.2A, unless your coil has a high resistance.

btw, I'd be curious to know if a DMM measures the same average current in the CSRs as indicated by your scope.
   

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OK, with 10,000u and 1R, yes is the same time constant as 10R with 1000u. (You might want to include all component values on your schematics).

Still doesn't quite compute with the current peaks. With 1R on the emitter, you should have more than 1.2A, unless your coil has a high resistance.

btw, I'd be curious to know if a DMM measures the same average current in the CSRs as indicated by your scope.

Yes,sorry the values were not on that schematic,as that was an early one. The schematic i posted a few pages back dose have all the values.

I know your time is shot,and you cant watch everything that is going on,but in my video's i do also have the DMMs reading the current,and they give the exact same value as the scope is giving in average.

Peak current through CSR2 is between 1.1 and 1.2 amps --during the 5% on time.


Brad


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Good news guys--my 3D printer arrived today  O0

Bad news is-the power is out,due to upgrades going on in our area.

I have taken an un-boxing video,and will upload as soon as power is back on.

So now the fun begins--time to put it together O0


Brad


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Good news guys--my 3D printer arrived today  O0

Bad news is-the power is out,due to upgrades going on in our area.

I have taken an un-boxing video,and will upload as soon as power is back on.

So now the fun begins--time to put it together O0


Brad
Fun and games. Mine arrives tomorrow.  Slic3r seems to be the thing they recommend over Cura for Anet. One for mac is buggy as hell. Looks like it gives you more control though.
   

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wrapped 400 turns of .51mm and tried diff cores as a pickup for the drive coil.
An air core, a steel bolt and 18 pieces of 1.75mm iron pla. Edit: but  when I put the drive coil near the neo rotor with the pu iron core coil attached It jumps to over 500v. The closer the rotor neo repelling force is to drive coil the the higher the voltage.  - .
« Last Edit: 2019-01-16, 09:52:25 by JimBoot »
   
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