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Topic: The TPU: Was It Real ?  (Read 35151 times) Print
giantkiller

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Frequency equals matter...

« Reply #275 on: 2011-09-14, 21:27:12 »
Direct from the documents:

Quote
The second point of criticism is that the “TPU” is a fake and doesn’t really work. I have received the input of a variety of engineers and technical people. Most relevant is the feedback from two highly qualified individuals. The first of these is Chris Campbell, an experienced Radio Engineer from California, and the second is Roland Shinzinger, a well known authority on power systems, and a Professor Emeritus of Engineering, (UCI). Mr. Campbell was selected by myself because of his well known expertise in radio and microwave transmission devises. Mr. Campbell was asked to be as skeptical and critical as possible regarding potential ways that these effects might be faked. Dr. Schinzinger was hired by
an outside firm and presumably given similar instructions to examine the device for possible fraud or trickery.
Mr. Campbell made it very clear that it was virtually impossible to transmit the necessary energy via radio or electromagnetic means of a magnitude necessary to light all the light bulbs seen lit in the demonstrations. This is especially true because of the inventor’s willingness to drive around town and perform the demonstration anyplace desired.

Quote
Dearest Lindsay,
I have read some of the response at the web site.  It is a bit more encouraging then I was expecting.  I have one comment about what KOSH said in regard to the clamp meter.  The meter measures anything powerful in regard to electron flow based on the strength of magnetic field.  So the meter displays that there is OBVIOUSLY a LARGE magnetic field inside the coil!!!!!  If the meter says five amps just from a contact high, that means there is one helava lot of power spinning around inside there!

It amazes me how elementary that example is and yet the geniuses on line say, Whats the meter for?.....It aint clamped on anything...  One engineer from a large American power company told me that the meter says more then anything else about the demonstration.  You cant fool the meter, it must have a strong field to react and show a current.  So, it aint batteries and it ant radio waves, but it is electron flow of a high order creating a large magnetic field. Or vice versa? Ha,
Ha!!!
Sincerely,
SM

So we sit inside this huge magnetic field of the planet. The tpu simply creates a resonant magnetic sphere that interfaces with the bigger sphere and rings it. Just another form of nuclear magnetic resonance.

Quote
He went on to discuss my technology in detail and reminded me of the destructive capability when the devices reach harmonic perfection
'nuf sed...
Last Edit: 2011-09-14, 22:10:21 by giantkiller
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EMdevices
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« Reply #276 on: 2011-09-14, 22:33:35 »
...but it is electron flow of a high order creating a large magnetic field. Or vice versa? Ha, Ha!!!

 Wink
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WaveWatcher

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« Reply #277 on: 2011-09-14, 22:51:35 »
I don't know if anyone has thought of this....

That type of ammeter will NOT show a reading with the jaws closed unless current is passing in one direction through the center and the other direction on the outside. In other words, IF you could have current flowing like a river and you stuck that closed set of jaws in the river flow of current..... there would be very little reading.

The reason.... the greater amount of flow over the outside (larger diameter) would offset the lesser amount of flow through the inside (smaller diameter). 

Just for shts & grins let us say there was a flow of current through the space surrounding the TPU. The actual current flow would be the reading times the ratio of the inner diameter compared to the outer diameter.

(at a minimum. Things wouldn't be that simple)

So, if the meter reads 1 Amp and the OD is twice the ID the actual current flow through the center would be twice the meter reading.

If you have such a meter just try to show a reading without passing a conductor through the middle of those closed jaws.

Yes, the meter on the video was very telling.
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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein
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Grumpy

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ExB=qr/t

« Reply #278 on: 2011-09-15, 03:45:01 »
...or if the current is induced by something that is in rotation in the local space of the probe.

I.E.  any conductor within the space occupied by the rotating "something" would have current induced into it as one side will always be a different direction than the other.  Can't beat Lenz, even on the fringe.

I think that the orientation will determine how much is induced and therefore how many electrons are caused to drift.  (Orientation varies the coupling.)  Movement of the something along the conductor would be like a "current without the carrier", so not detectable by inductive means, or even electrostatic means as the conductor is also charged and may have current, but may be indicative of additional "energy" transferred through the conductor.  I.E. less heat from measured current and resistance.  I think it would affect a magnet held near the conductor, but this is just a yes or no indication and may not be useful for measurement.

The question of "How did Tesla get it to rotate?" is still open for debate.  His Magnifier was initially vertical and this may be a clue but later versions in his notes were not in the same orientation to negate inductive coupling to the primary/secondary.  Of course they may have had bias from the gap not quenching completely or an orientation that wasn't mentioned or a tuning point with the coil.
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cheappower2012
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« Reply #279 on: 2011-09-15, 05:28:29 »
You guys speculate too much,here is the amp meter SM used again,it was made
 in 1998 has not changed according to the manufacturer.The meter on the dc amp setting
reacts to a magnetic field,it will not react to any ac magnetic field,but will react to
 a pulsing
magnetic field.I have tried 120 hz pulsing magnetic fields it will react to this,mostlikely
 it will react to a pulsing field at 6,000 hz.In the video he lays the meter accross the
opening of the
coil,its a coil because other experiments indicates that the meter reacts to a north-south or
 south- north,in one direction it will make a minus sign come up.Hes measuring a magnetic field it
 may not be from the current going to the light bulbs,
its ether a stationary or pulsing dc magnetic field,if the coil is an air core,mostlikely its this
,it means a very large current is flowing.

On con men,this guy reminds me of SM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdozRv0XOjU&feature=related


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exnihiloest
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« Reply #280 on: 2011-09-15, 09:21:32 »
...but it is electron flow of a high order creating a large magnetic field. Or vice versa? Ha, Ha!!!

 Wink

Look at the delay between the two events. The first one is the cause, the second the effect.
In continuous conditions, look at the phase shift.


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WaveWatcher

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« Reply #281 on: 2011-09-15, 10:24:25 »
You guys speculate too much,here is the amp meter SM used again,it was made
 in 1998 has not changed according to the manufacturer.The meter on the dc amp setting
reacts to a magnetic field,it will not react to any ac magnetic field,but will react to
 a pulsing
magnetic field.I have tried 120 hz pulsing magnetic fields it will react to this,mostlikely
 it will react to a pulsing field at 6,000 hz.In the video he lays the meter accross the
opening of the
coil,its a coil because other experiments indicates that the meter reacts to a north-south or
 south- north,in one direction it will make a minus sign come up.Hes measuring a magnetic field it
 may not be from the current going to the light bulbs,
its ether a stationary or pulsing dc magnetic field,if the coil is an air core,mostlikely its this
,it means a very large current is flowing.

On con men,this guy reminds me of SM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TdozRv0XOjU&feature=related




We speculate too much?

Quote
That type of ammeter will NOT show a reading with the jaws closed unless current is passing in one direction through the center and the other direction on the outside.

That wasn't speculation.

-------------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein
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giantkiller

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Frequency equals matter...

« Reply #282 on: 2011-09-15, 15:54:18 »
The ampmeter showed 2 things:
1: The dynamic field inside the unit.
2: The feedback loop or the symbiosys between the outter rings and the center toroids.

The comment 'This is very telling' about the ampmeter is the comment that leads to the fields and not the electronics.
On the OU site I posted numerous field graphics representing the dynamics that a schematic cannot show. I also showed the fields in the Deyo coil.
Funny... if you show a working unit or a schematic you draw attention with 'Proof'. I chose to show the fields. Why not alot of others who profess great knowledge? Just my curiosity, thats all.

@EM,
You are are correct about the power line interaction. Absolutely correct. The ampmeter in the SM17 shows this interaction between the outter ring and the center toroids. It is near field excitation. It is the feedback everybody is looking for.

Look at the fields and not the mechanical nor electronics and you 'WILL' see the process. With that there is no grey area of argumentation.
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forest
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« Reply #283 on: 2011-09-15, 18:41:22 »
Can somebody post that Stven Mark tip when he said about field like big ball ?
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wattsup
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« Reply #284 on: 2011-09-15, 22:16:08 »
With such questions as the ammeter readings we just turn in circles.

Technically speaking those toroids, if standard and if driven in a standard way should not have shown such high or even no amperage readings in the way he took them because toroids keep the field inwards. This is why recently I postulated that the field is not coming from the toroid but from the center of the toroid that harbors some other type of coiling or mechanism.

We know that SM never did anything for nothing. We know that there is a toroid in the FTPU and we cannot see under the toroid. We know there is a toroid on the OTPU and we never were able to see behind it (it was placed vertically). We know there is a toroid in the MTPU and again we never saw under it and we know there are two toroids in the LTPU and again there is a nice but small black box under them.

So we know SM never does anything for nothing, so there has to be a reason for everything in his videos, so there has to be a reason why we never see under the toroids. A while ago, I had put up a diagrams of a mechanism that could be under the toroids and also this same mechanism could exhibit the gyro shaking effect.

Take a speaker and connect it to your pulse generator and then hold the speaker in your hands and see if it does a gyro effect and see up to what frequency you can feel the effect. This will give you at least some parameters.

So imagine that if in the LTPU was dishing out 800 something volts at 1 amp, the only evident control circuitry would be in that black box and this is what we all tend to think. All the other TPUs did not have that much circuitry either. Maybe the OTPU since we can see the circuit board but there are not that many components on it. But again look at the LTPU with such a small box for controls and compare that to the mountain of control circuits in the latest Kapanadze device that is producing less then half of the LTPU output.

There has to be some control. SM says there is no mass circuitry because it is the knowledge of the coils and that wire is very important. But it is always the knowledge of the coils and it is always that wire is important so that statement does not mean anything more then if I was a hang man and said "knowledge of the knots and rope choice is very important". Then you have to interpret what "no mass circuitry" means. So, when does circuitry become mass circuitry? Don't know.

To think that the LTPU is working and producing that much juice and there is not one place to put enough circuitry to control such an event is just dumbfounding. So how did he generate his feed power, his switching system of 5000 hertz and some 800 watts, and how did he re-combine the outputs to produce so much juice.

When SM gave the working 6TPU to the other guy, the other said "slight noise and vibration" and SM practically pulled the unit out of the guys hands as if to say "Enough already, you shmuck, why are you mentioning NOISE". So what noise did that guy hear loud enough to mention before he mentioned vibration?

Anyways, we can go on and on and on and it will never end and one day, even if one of us does make a working TPU, we will never know if it follows SMs TPU design or if it leaves SMs technology in the dust. Well we never know. We just got a new look at a Tariels Kapanadze device and it may give more clues, so maybe a new SM video is out there somewhere that may resurface and do the same.

wattsup

PS: Maybe one last thing that has been pulling at me for several days now. Go back to all that you have learned of OU, from the first things you saw till today, which system in your eyes seems to be the most promising and would be easy to work out. Well we know SM's devices are not easy, or Kapanadze or Romero or there are so many other. But in my eyes, the one that exemplified the best the rotating magnetic field effect is the one and only ........................................... Rodin Coil. I am always amazed at such a simple device that is wound on a donut shape that can keep a magnet turning and turning at high speed with the simplest of pulsing schemes. So what I am thinking these days is why wind a Rodin on a dumb plastic donut shape. Why not try to take an alternator stator coil which is like a donut, and, wind a Rodin Coil over it and pulse it to see what happens. Seems to me all the stator wants to see is a rotating field and that is just what you get with a Rodin Coil. No duals, no quads, no 3-phasing required. Then, what if the STPU and 6TPU used this same idea and the outer winds follow in a way the Rodin method of continuous turns of the same wire. Or even wind a pick-up coil over the Rodin Coil. Has anyone tried that? Don't think so because all the videos I have seen just show the Rodin Coil and how nifty it is turning a ball magnet.
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giantkiller

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Frequency equals matter...

« Reply #285 on: 2011-09-16, 00:28:32 »
Looking down from the top we can see a toroid bifilar winding of an air core.
I see the field of the first one exciting the second one. The rotation comes from the flux circling in the center of the ring.
So here we can see 2 virtual spheres of magnetic activity.
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The TPU: Was It Real ?
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dag57
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« Reply #286 on: 2011-09-16, 05:51:42 »
@ wattsup and everyone else, i think you've got some really good ideas.  don't know about the 60hz theory, but then again who does know other than steven.  i think these units can run as a closed loop system with feedback once they are started by some means, be it a small battery or charged capacitors or even yes, possibably white noise.  i think you should try the 45dgre winding with a vertical secondary. that would be a different winding from agent gates device which i believe has a horizontal secondary coil.   as far as rotating magnetic fields go, has anyone tried a quad stator coil configeration, like in a motor, maybe useing AC instead of DC pulses for the field windings by pulsing the small toroid primary winding and producing AC on the secondary winding. could this produce a rotating magnetic field? like the egg of columbus. wouldn't the vertical secondary coil or coils be induced if the oscillator were runing at the correct resonant frequency.  i read an artical about car altenators, the field winding only requires 2 to 4 amps to produce up to 70 amps of output current and supplies its own feedback current once its started.  very interesting isn't it.  just food for thought,   i will leave you with one more idea. what if the small toriod choking type coils were being used for high self induction as Tesla used them in some of his high frequency high voltage converters; patent # 568,176, ###### also makes use of such tesla type circuitry in his radiant energy devices.  maybe a high selfinduction choking coil could be used to charge the bigger capacitors of a primary circuit as in a air core tesla coil.  if the tpu was laid out like the tesla magnifier the extra coil could be put inside the vertical or secondary coil and this would not be in magnetic coupling  but would be of high self induction as tesla designed his.  i know it's hard to figure out that DC thing, but i heard steven himself say on one of his videos that the tpu was putting out high frequency AC but would not read as ac on the meter.  just more food for thought.  Afro    also,  i believe it was real and eventually we'll figure it out or somthing like it;  would that be so bad?
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #287 on: 2011-09-16, 14:42:54 »
dag57 said:

Quote
i read an artical about car altenators, the field winding only requires 2 to 4 amps to produce up to 70 amps of output current and supplies its own feedback current once its started.  very interesting isn't it.  just food for thought,

The initial excitation current for the rotating field comes from the battery. The actual power output is a function of the mechanical input from the engine, it is not a free lunch. Yes, once started the mechanical input provides the field current and the battery is now in charge mode.

A clear understanding of how an alternator works is a good thing, but there is nothing free here. You could replace the field windings with permanent magnets and two things would happen:

1) you would have a power output based on RPM's of the engine and so would have to do the control on the stator side since you would no longer be able to modulate the strength of the PM field.

2) you have lost the fine ability to have zero field if you had no electrical load, and the ability to lessen the drag on the engine.

Car alternators have been neatly engineered to provide a simple yet robust system of DC power for the car and charging control of the battery. But there is no free energy there, it is all supplied by shaft horsepower input.
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forest
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« Reply #288 on: 2011-09-16, 17:24:39 »
 Shocked with new information

The secret was probably SHORTED COIL.

SHORTED COIL is a waveguide and a place where electrons can be accelerated, closed loop.
This alone explain many Steven Mark tips.
Now, closed coil if specially made shape is efficient RCL circuit WITHOUT A GAP IN CIRCUIT (like inside ordinary capacitor).
Do you see the importance of this ? At resonance , there is no resistance , like in superconductor.

Simple but powerful. TPU.Case (almost) closed. Now we need to understand how electrons are accelerated and that's why I asked about "field like a big ball" SM tip.
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dag57
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« Reply #289 on: 2011-09-16, 17:37:17 »
hi ion, and thanks for your responce.  i was pondering replacing voltage on the field winding with AC instead of the DC 12 volt battery current;  and then  no actual rotation of the shaft would be nessesary.   the amount of output is going to be based on the speed of the rotation between fields and of course field strength.  if we could rotate an alternator at 5000 hz instead of say 3500 rpms, (that would be 300,000rpms) what kind of output would that produce.  this type of setup would be like combining motor field coils with generator stator  windings all in one package.   may only produce a transformer effect.   just one more idea guys!    Smiley  have a great day,  Don        
Last Edit: 2011-09-17, 05:48:18 by dag57
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Dumped

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« Reply #290 on: 2011-09-16, 22:41:18 »
Are there any recorded instances of the
device ever working apart from Steven?

Was it necessary that Steven be in close
proximity of the device in order for it to
generate any power?
-------------------------------
Our Western partners headed by the United States prefer not to be guided by international law in their practical policies, but by the rule of the gun. They have come to believe in their exceptionalism and their sense of being the chosen ones.

Vladimir Putin, in speech before the Federal Assembly
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dag57
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« Reply #291 on: 2011-09-17, 07:01:34 »
@ all, somthing wattsup said made me think of another idea posted by grumpy a while back i believe.  wattsup mentioned in his post about how a speaker coil will push away from the magnet when pulsed in the right direction.  this reminded me of a post about bucking coils.  when to like fields are placed together they do not cancel each other out but rather push against each others fields to create a so called scalar field @ 90 degrees.  this type of magnetic field is what ###### is suppose to be using in his famous motor/radiant energy generator device... and what i'm about to say next may be similar to something tpu-bruce was thinking but maybe not.  what if there were a horizontal coil wound with a bifilar bucking arangment (like the battery cables steven mentioned) spreading this scalar magnetic field @ 90 degrees straight through both sides of a vertical collector coil (which could be wound also in a bifilar configeration as tesla stated in his patent #512,340)  and has the ability to store an enormous amount of electrical potential internally;  and we've all read that the only way to convert radiant energy is with a capacitor or a battery.  wouldn't this produce high voltage radiant discharges (dc in nature) ?     Wink    Don
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ION
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« Reply #292 on: 2011-09-17, 13:46:06 »
hi ion, and thanks for your responce. i was pondering replacing voltage on the field winding with AC instead of the DC 12 volt battery current;  and then  no actual rotation of the shaft would be nessesary.   the amount of output is going to be based on the speed of the rotation between fields and of course field strength.  if we could rotate an alternator at 5000 hz instead of say 3500 rpms, (that would be 300,000rpms) what kind of output would that produce.  this type of setup would be like combining motor field coils with generator stator  windings all in one package.   may only produce a transformer effect.   just one more idea guys!    Smiley  have a great day,  Don        

Then you would have the equivalent of a standard AC transformer with a phase adjustment by the shaft.
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dag57
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« Reply #293 on: 2011-09-18, 04:46:56 »
Then you would have the equivalent of a standard AC transformer with a phase adjustment by the shaft.
   thanks  ION ;  in a generator the magnet or magnet windings are 90 degrees (or perpendicular) to the output windings;  but in a AC transformer the primary and secondary has parallel windings (or one over the other).  does anyone think a 90 degree type of winding setup would make any difference as far as the transformer effect?   my mind keeps wanting to replace those rotating 90 degree magnetic (North and South) pole projections with stationary 90 degree AC (North and South) pole projections.  might make a good weekend project anyway.    Wink             getting back to the TPU and was it real, i believe it was; but how did he do it?  is there a general consensus of how the TPU is functioning or generating power.  have we ruled out a conversion from magnetic to electric?  have we ruled out regauging or as tesla put it, high self induction?  i read over the 1875 NY news paper article about thomas edisons discovery of aether energies and its charging effects even on grounded pipes!.  by the way everyone should read that article!  should the reasearch move in that direction?   gerry vassilatos discusses this charging effect in one of his books.  good read but don't know how accurate he is.   soo many questions.     Cheesy    Don
Last Edit: 2011-09-18, 05:55:27 by dag57
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ION
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« Reply #294 on: 2011-09-18, 16:57:53 »
Don

To my knowledge no one has a workable theory with experimental proof. Everyone has an opinion or pet theory.

The proof is in the simple repeatable experiment. I have been chasing the TPU for 6 years, and it remains an enigma.

Unfortunately, the waters have gotten very murky with lots of claimed replications or half baked youtube presentations. Lots of hoaxsters and tricksters have gotten into the act, some showing how it might be done with batteries for a few minutes.

But no one has been able to duplicate what we see in the videos of the larger units, nor have they been able to replicate the long run time in Dr. Schinzingers lab report.

So much misinfo and disinfo has crept in since the beginning of it's exposure on the web in 2006, it would be extremely difficult for a newcomer to sort the wheat from the chaff.

There are a few experienced persons on this forum that have been there from the beginning, and are well read on the real stuff.

Believe some of what you see and some of what you hear, be careful of wrong turns and dead ends. Normal transformer action will not get you there.
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Dumped

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« Reply #295 on: 2011-09-19, 02:03:33 »
...

But no one has been able to duplicate what we see in the videos of the larger units, nor have they been able to replicate the long run time in Dr. Schinzingers lab report.

So much misinfo and disinfo has crept in since the beginning of it's exposure on the web in 2006, it would be extremely difficult for a newcomer to sort the wheat from the chaff.

There are a few experienced persons on this forum that have been there from the beginning, and are well read on the real stuff.

Believe some of what you see and some of what you hear, be careful of wrong turns and dead ends. Normal transformer action will not get you there.

Many will understandably have difficulty with
accepting that the energy output of the device
does not originate in the device itself.

Some few "individuals" seem to have the ability
to "channel" the energy flow from an unseen
source which is not accessible to most.

Something in the supernatural realm.

If that is indeed the case then the device will
not "work" except in the presence or control
of the channeler.

Yes, it is mysterious and "other-worldly."  It
is also the subject of several "black project"
endeavors within the vast underground military
complex where the impossible is dealt with on
a daily basis.

Seeing is believing but far removed from comprehending.
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Our Western partners headed by the United States prefer not to be guided by international law in their practical policies, but by the rule of the gun. They have come to believe in their exceptionalism and their sense of being the chosen ones.

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WaveWatcher

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« Reply #296 on: 2011-09-20, 02:52:53 »

I just heard some interesting info from an old TV repairman Friend of mine.

He says he recalls one of the many design problems that almost ended RCA just as color TVs were becoming a hot item.

RCA made the core of TV sets for almost all of the manufacturers. He recalls only having to use one set of manuals and schematics for most console sets.

The problem that had to be changed was the power supply. It was a ferroresonant supply using permanent magnets for bias and temperature stability. I asked if he meant 'ferroresonant transformer' ? The answer was 'the whole supply was regulated magnetically. Line voltage went into an inverter that output 16kHz to this magnetically regulated supply. This high frequency transformer with magnets looked like a large toroid but was more hollow than normal. He said he never took them apart. They just went back to the manufacturer so he would be paid for warranty work.

All device voltages were fed by this HF transformer, including 30kV for the CRT. The inverter section used a common big dual rectifier tube. The HF side rectified outputs with Top-Hat silicon rectifiers by RCA.

He isn't aware of my thoughts about TPUs and I doubt he knows what they are. I was just asking him about early color sets. The above was volunteered.

I had heard that there was a toroidal power supply transformer used in early sets. They even had coils called 'control coils'. I haven't found documentation on this.


Anyone have any info on this weird arrangement?
-------------------------------
"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein
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ION
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It's turtles all the way down

« Reply #297 on: 2011-09-20, 03:54:53 »
I just heard some interesting info from an old TV repairman Friend of mine.

He says he recalls one of the many design problems that almost ended RCA just as color TVs were becoming a hot item.

RCA made the core of TV sets for almost all of the manufacturers. He recalls only having to use one set of manuals and schematics for most console sets.

The problem that had to be changed was the power supply. It was a ferroresonant supply using permanent magnets for bias and temperature stability. I asked if he meant 'ferroresonant transformer' ? The answer was 'the whole supply was regulated magnetically. Line voltage went into an inverter that output 16kHz to this magnetically regulated supply. This high frequency transformer with magnets looked like a large toroid but was more hollow than normal. He said he never took them apart. They just went back to the manufacturer so he would be paid for warranty work.

All device voltages were fed by this HF transformer, including 30kV for the CRT. The inverter section used a common big dual rectifier tube. The HF side rectified outputs with Top-Hat silicon rectifiers by RCA.

He isn't aware of my thoughts about TPUs and I doubt he knows what they are. I was just asking him about early color sets. The above was volunteered.

I had heard that there was a toroidal power supply transformer used in early sets. They even had coils called 'control coils'. I haven't found documentation on this.


Anyone have any info on this weird arrangement?


Schematics and layouts are available for those old sets if your friend can supply a few chassis numbers.

I personally don't ever remember seeing anything like this, though I repaired and scrapped for parts a lot of RCA sets back then.
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WaveWatcher

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« Reply #298 on: 2011-09-20, 04:01:45 »
The time-line doesn't fit but I just located this....

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* 4415841_Television_receiver_ferroresonan.pdf (430.16 KB - downloaded 124 times.)
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"As far as the laws of mathematics refer to reality, they are not certain; as far as they are certain, they do not refer to reality." - Einstein
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wattsup
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« Reply #299 on: 2011-09-20, 05:14:24 »
The references cited go back to 1929.

wattsup
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