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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Steven Mark's TPU > Some "New" Observations
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #400 on: 2017-04-03, 13:48:00 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-03, 13:02:23
Yes, i was thinking of using the EL2009 amp box, but the patent says:

One end of the line is short-circuited and the other end is fed with RF. power from a 1 mega
cycle oscillator 'OSC capable of delivering 3—4 kw.

The "1 megacycle" will be no problem, but the 3—4 kw is, but i can start with that.


I will look into that "90º phased coil array (without caps)" part, as skimming the patent again does not show it

Itsu

Dear Itsu

Do not be dismayed about the power input. The Tline is mostly reactive so the 3-4 kW should have been expressed as 3-4 kVAR. How much will show up as real resistive power depends on the eddy current coupling to the electrons as it is stated that it is this factor that will produce the resistive component. Otherwise, the TLine voltage and current are mostly out of phase, so very little real power is drawn from the source. However, do not drive directly with your sig gen or it can be destroyed as the out of phase voltage and current can get quite high. You will need a buffer amplifier that can withstand the input rise.

See section 1 par 55-60 and Section 2 par 15.

It is easy to build up large stored charge in the line from a small input source. You will need to take care that the source can handle the large reactive current and voltage rise as energy builds in the line.

When enough RF voltage is built up in the line, at some point the tube should ionize as it would if it were close to a Tesla coil. Then the end terminals of the tube can be measured. If you work at low RF levels you may need a means to strike an arc in the tube.

 A series circuit comprising a DC power source current limited  via a resistor applied to the tube ends and an inductor quickly sparked across the tube will usually ignite it.

In sweeping the line at low input levels, I found a few resonant points, but this may be because I was lacking a few capacitors. Will run again when I have the rest of the capacitors.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

EMdevices

Good to see you  here as your original idea posted recently seems very related to this. Thanks for your correction drawing. Do you have any further thoughts on this device or your original posting?

Regards




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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #401 on: 2017-04-03, 14:11:16 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-03, 13:02:23
I will look into that "90º phased coil array (without caps)" part, as skimming the patent again does not show it
It shows 120º phased coil array in Fig.6.
It might come as a surprise that your FG can generate three signals 120º apart with some simple external summators, but you don't have a 3-ch power amp like the 2009 box.

90º phased coil array is a simpler version of that, that can be realized with just 2-ch FG and RF power amp...which you have both.

Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-03, 13:02:23
... the patent says:
One end of the line is short-circuited and the other end is fed with RF. power from a 1 mega
cycle oscillator 'OSC capable of delivering 3—4 kw.
An RF power amplifier of that power would cost you €4k per channel.  See this and note that is without the 50V 50A power supply.
Do you want to invest that kind of money?
« Last Edit: 2017-04-03, 21:16:29 by verpies »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #402 on: 2017-04-03, 16:21:17 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2017-04-03, 14:11:16
It shows 120º phased coil array in Fig.6.
It might come as a surprise that your FG can generate three signals 120º apart with some simple external summators, but you don't have a 3-ch power amp like the 2009 box.

90º phased coil array is a simpler version of that, that can be realized with just 2-ch FG and RF power amp...which you have both.
An RF power amplifier of that power would cost you €4k per channel.
Do you want to invest that kind of money?

I'm guessing it is not necessary to run anywhere near that level to see a small effect, which is what we are after. Also please read my earlier comments regarding the power factor of the line.

What we want to see is a resistive loading effect on the primary due to accelerated electrons. Normally, the line will be mostly reactive until it can actually couple to the electrons in the "collector" be it gas tube, conductor, or partial conductor. Although the word "semi-conductor" is used instead of partial conductor in the patent I have refrained from using that term, lest folks think a rectifier should be put in as a collector.

The basic operation of the device is  an AC (RF) to DC converter. The rectification is inherent to the operation of the system without the use of rectifiers due to the dragging and acceleration of electrons by the action of the traveling wave.

Regards



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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #403 on: 2017-04-03, 16:28:29 »

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ION, verpies,

thanks, so i will start testing with my EL2009 buffer amp. inbetween and see what signal levels i am up against.

The caps will arrive later this week i hope, so still some time to install the return copper wire etc.

By the way, my 87uH coil is a very close match to the calculated 90uH of ION's Fig. 5 calculator in post #392.


   
Itsu   
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #404 on: 2017-04-03, 17:37:04 »
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FWIW, here are some results of 32% duty cycle impulse tests run on my Tline with the output shorted.

The trace references are as follows: CH1(yel) is the pulse input to the Tline from the Ixys driver, CH2(blu) is the voltage measured across a 1 ohm 1% non-inductive resistor which represents the Tline current return to ground, CH3(pnk) not used, CH4(grn) is current thru a 1200x34 litz wire collector passing thru the Tline, and Math(red) is the product of CH1 x CH2.

The 1st pix is measurement of the  input pulse to the Tline.  From this we can derive the impedance of the line is ~74 ohms.  Also note that the load to the pulse driver is resistive for both the first and second pulses.

The 2nd pix shows a mean collector current of -7.885ma over the first reflected pulse time of ~8us.  The offset current of the probe prior to the input pulse was -42ua (not shown).

The 3rd, 4th, and 5th pix show the collector mean current over the following reflected pulse periods.

The 6th pix shows a mean output current of 243.5 ma thru the Tline output short for the first pulse period.  I find this interesting when compared to the input pulse mean current of 32.19 ma over the period of 2.507us!

Edit:  The above statement is in error.  The input pulse mean current is 119.6ma over the first period and therefore the shorted Tline output current gain during this time is 243.5/119.6 = 2.04.

pm
« Last Edit: 2017-04-04, 14:24:44 by partzman »
   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #405 on: 2017-04-04, 00:23:03 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-03, 16:28:29
ION, verpies,

thanks, so i will start testing with my EL2009 buffer amp. inbetween and see what signal levels i am up against.

The caps will arrive later this week i hope, so still some time to install the return copper wire etc.

By the way, my 87uH coil is a very close match to the calculated 90uH of ION's Fig. 5 calculator in post #392.
   
Itsu

Hi Itsu

May be a good idea to a put a power resistor or incandescent lamp as a feed between your power amp and the TLine, at least for initial tests until you can get an idea of the current and voltage reflecting out of the line back into the amp. I would hate to see that amp get blown.

You might find it interesting to put a neon bulb on the end of a stick and move it along the TLine to discover peaks and nodes.

I'm sure muDped will appreciate this: While I'm waiting on some capacitors, I pulled my Heathkit DX-100 out from under the bench and struggled all 100 pounds of it onto the workbench. I plan to use it to drive the TLine, also adding a dummy load of some sort. This beast needs a little work to get it back in shape but has a VFO and crystal selection. If I'm lucky, may be able to drive 140 Watts and  even add some modulation just to see what it does.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

partzman

What conclusions can you draw from your latest round of tests?

Take Care


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #406 on: 2017-04-04, 03:25:14 »
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Quote from: ION on 2017-04-04, 00:23:03
[snip]
partzman

What conclusions can you draw from your latest round of tests?

Take Care

ION,

I'm still working on it but I will say that all my tests so far seemingly show only normal transformer induction in the collector or no effect at all when using a fluorescent lamp collector at ac (40kHz).  I plan to raise the operating frequency of the Tline and try operating the fluorescent lamp at dc to see if the results are any different.

pm   
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #407 on: 2017-04-04, 09:52:33 »
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Ah, the mighty 6146 beam power tetrode. What a blast from the past. Thanks for posting that!
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #408 on: 2017-04-04, 19:51:45 »

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Aye, blast from the past for sure! O0

Ah, things were so much more enjoyable back
in those days when electrical/electronic
suppliers were numerous and a multitude
of kits were available.  Heathkit was top of the
line with many incredible bargains. :)



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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  CITFTA
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #409 on: 2017-04-04, 21:51:39 »

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Believing in something false doesn't make it true.
You guys are reminding me of my age.  My first real ham radio was the Heathkit HW101.  My wife got it for me for Christmas one year and I think it took me two weeks to get it all built working on it in the evenings.  I do like the old tube type gear.  Before she got me that kit I was running an old military transmitter.  I think it was an aircraft radio.  It was an ART-13 if I recall correctly.  My children were little and liked to come in the room when I was sending CW and watch the output tubes flash on and off as I transmitted.  I think I still have one rig here somewhere that uses the 6146 tubes.  If we ever have an EMP like some claim we might have, those old tube type rigs might come in handy.

Take care,
Carroll


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img  Itsu
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #410 on: 2017-04-07, 21:04:17 »

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Got my caps (1nF silver mica) yesterday, so could complete the Fig. 5 setup, see picture.

First thing to try was to get the characteristic impedance of this "transmision line" by doing a time domain reflection measurment.
But it seems this coil act as a fixed impedance as the signal does not change when opening or closing the far end.

I would expect to see an increase in time between the original and the reflected (positive or negative) pulse when inserting the coil.

Could it be that my pulse is to fast for the capacitance of this setup?

Anyway, i will do some frequency sweeping to see how it behaves.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajFqsh7KJ-E

Regards Itsu
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #411 on: 2017-04-07, 22:40:01 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-07, 21:04:17
I would expect to see an increase in time between the original and the reflected (positive or negative) pulse when inserting the coil.
Could it be that my pulse is to fast for the capacitance of this setup?
IMO you are looking for the reflections from the end of the helical-cap line too soon and the picopulses are not too fast.

Your scope is set up to look for reflections from the end of the Helicap line after several ns ...but you should be looking for them many μs later.
This is because the velocity factor in the coax cable is around 0.7c and in the Helicap line it can be as low as 0.0001c.

Of course you are going to get reflections wherever ANY impedance discontinuity occurs, e.g.:
a) where your 50Ω coax cable joins to the beginning of the Helicap line, and...
b) where the caps connect to the helical line (12 different points!)*, and...
c) where the Helicap line is shorted (or opened) at its end.

What your scope now shows several ns later must be the reflection from point (a)
You might get multiple reflections from all (b) points, later.
Reflections from the (c) point will be much later....and possibly much weaker.

P.S.
The reflections from the cap junctions (points b) can be minimized by increasing the number of caps so the capacitance is more evenly distributed along the Helicap line.  More even capacitance distribution = less impedance discontinuities.
A suggestion for another experiment: Do that TDR measurement on some old coax, that you do not care about, and bash it with a hammer at some point (not so much that the hammer will cut it or short it, though).  You will be able to "see" this "bashing point" on the scope mainly because the squeezed portion of the coax will have more capacitance at this "bashing point" (less distance between the inner and outer conductor) than the rest of the coax cable. 
Next, bash it in several places (spread apart) and have a party !
« Last Edit: 2017-04-08, 01:49:12 by verpies »
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #412 on: 2017-04-07, 23:27:44 »
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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-07, 21:04:17
Got my caps (1nF silver mica) yesterday, so could complete the Fig. 5 setup, see picture.

First thing to try was to get the characteristic impedance of this "transmision line" by doing a time domain reflection measurment.
But it seems this coil act as a fixed impedance as the signal does not change when opening or closing the far end.

I would expect to see an increase in time between the original and the reflected (positive or negative) pulse when inserting the coil.

Could it be that my pulse is to fast for the capacitance of this setup?

Anyway, i will do some frequency sweeping to see how it behaves.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajFqsh7KJ-E

Regards Itsu

Itsu,

I see from a previous post that the total inductance Lt of your tline is 87uH.  The total capacitance Ct of your line is 12nfd.  Using the formula Td = (Lt*Ct)^1/2 and Z = (Lt/Ct)^1/2, your line should have an output delay Td of 1.02us and the return delay should be 2.04us.  The impedance should be ~85 ohms.  Verpies is correct in that you need to increase your horizontal sweep to see the delay.  Hope this helps.

pm
   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #413 on: 2017-04-07, 23:47:18 »
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Nice work as usual Itsu.

I agree with partzman and verpies. Perhaps set your scope to a longer time base so you could see the reflected pulse which is now off scale. Also you might try a resistor at the input transition to "tame" the input. Probably something close to the coax impedance.

Also a little longer pulse would not hurt at all.

I'm busy right now with finishing income taxes and getting the big transmitter working to drive the line, so won't be contributing much for a bit.

While I was waiting for some capacitors to arrive, I tested the resonance of my line by using a 1K resistor from the generator and scoping the input. I found there were a number of very sharp resonant points, but my line was missing a few caps at the end.

I will repeat the test with all capacitors in place when I get them.

Down the road, I'll put on the goggles, flak vest, and fire up the transmitter into the TLine.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-08, 13:43:33 by ION »


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #414 on: 2017-04-08, 09:57:25 »

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Ok, guys, thanks for the comments.

I was thinking that as the 20cm coax shows as 1.6ns, the 65cm helicap line would show right behind it (within a few ns), but forgetting that the velocity factor could be way different.

Using my Agilent U1733C LCR meter it shows @ 100KHz an R=5.4 Ohm, an L=104uH and a Z=65 Ohm.  The C shows minus 24nF, so can not be trusted.

 
I will take another look later today and also will look at the resonance points the "verpies" way (meaning with FG and scope sweeping across a frequency range).


Regards Itsu
   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #415 on: 2017-04-08, 13:52:00 »
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It's turtles all the way down
My apologies to partzman, somehow I missed his post #430 while I was typing post #431 so I went back to edit and include his name in the "agreed" preamble of my post. #431.


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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #416 on: 2017-04-08, 20:52:14 »

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Ok,  found the pulse, its at 1.91us from the originator (roundtrip), see screenshot.
Using a 500 and a 100 Ohm potmeter it zero's out (kind of) around 77 Ohm, so that will be the characteristic impedance.

Video here:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJsRuMg34gw

next i will sweep for resonance points when shorted at the end.

Itsu
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #417 on: 2017-04-08, 21:46:47 »

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Resonance sweep with FG and scope, FG loosely coupled with 3 turns sweeping a range of 100KHz to 5MHz (no resonance points seen higher then 5MHz) see screenshot 1

A zoomed in sweep (400KHz to 550KHz) shows the first and strongest resonance peak to be at 475KHz, see screenshot 2

No difference seen with a shorted or opened coil at the far end.

Video here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVDA3M_7qRc

Itsu
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #418 on: 2017-04-08, 22:44:34 »

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Quote from: Itsu on 2017-04-08, 21:46:47
A zoomed in sweep (400KHz to 550KHz) shows the first and strongest resonance peak to be at 475KHz, see screenshot 2
That is about 2.1μs after inversion, which compares nicely with your TDR measurment.
It also gives your Helicap line 0.002c a velocity factor.

This means that the nodes of the standing wave in your Helicap coil are 350 times closer than in your coax cable with VF=0.7c.
At 475kHz you will get 1 standing wave node and at 3.8MHz you will get 8 nodes.

You could use the 4 channels of your scope to visualize the standing wave by measuring the voltage across 4 caps (spaced equally) with a slow timebase.


To get 8 standing wave nodes in your coax cable of the same length as the Helicap line, you'd need to drive it with 1.33Ghz, which illustrates the whole purpose of having the Helicap line with its 0.002c velocity factor.

To put it in perspective, here are two videos to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozeYaikI11g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1PgCOTDjvI


...but, but I think the patent does not want a standing wave.  I think it wants a 90º traveling wave.  Please read it again to make sure - I am too lazy to do it tonight.
« Last Edit: 2017-04-08, 23:14:07 by verpies »
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #419 on: 2017-04-09, 00:29:24 »
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Neat!

Turns out I can do that too, using the Rigol Z-box and the Cheepo-San DDS, only not as pretty as Itsu's pictures. Here's what mine looks like, with the FG making sine waves at 5v-p-p fed directly into the beginning of the line, and sweeping from 1kHz to 2MHz in 12 seconds.

Top trace is at the feed point (beginning) and bottom trace is between segments 9 and 10.

   
img  ion
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #420 on: 2017-04-09, 03:32:47 »
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It's turtles all the way down


From verpies

Quote
...but, but I think the patent does not want a standing wave.  I think it wants a 90º traveling wave.  Please read it again to make sure - I am too lazy to do it tonight.

That is correct,we want a traveling wave.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #421 on: 2017-04-09, 11:19:05 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-09, 00:29:24
Turns out I can do that too,
Excellent!
What is the calculated velocity factor of your Helicap line?
   
img  verpies
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #422 on: 2017-04-09, 11:20:21 »

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Quote from: ION on 2017-04-09, 03:32:47
That is correct,we want a traveling wave.
It think a FM ramp will create that.
Imperfect termination, too...in a way.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #423 on: 2017-04-09, 17:06:59 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2017-04-08, 22:44:34
That is about 2.1μs after inversion, which compares nicely with your TDR measurment.
It also gives your Helicap line 0.002c a velocity factor.

This means that the nodes of the standing wave in your Helicap coil are 350 times closer than in your coax cable with VF=0.7c.
At 475kHz you will get 1 standing wave node and at 3.8MHz you will get 8 nodes.

You could use the 4 channels of your scope to visualize the standing wave by measuring the voltage across 4 caps (spaced equally) with a slow timebase.


To get 8 standing wave nodes in your coax cable of the same length as the Helicap line, you'd need to drive it with 1.33Ghz, which illustrates the whole purpose of having the Helicap line with its 0.002c velocity factor.

To put it in perspective, here are two videos to watch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ozeYaikI11g
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1PgCOTDjvI


...but, but I think the patent does not want a standing wave.  I think it wants a 90º traveling wave.  Please read it again to make sure - I am too lazy to do it tonight.

Ok, nice video's. 

For my understanding:

475Khz = 2.1us                        (http://www.calctool.org/CALC/other/converters/freq).
475Khz = 631.5m wavelength   (http://www.wavelengthcalculator.com/)
as my coil is 65cm long (so not 60cm), the velocity factor is (0.65 x 2) / 631.5 = 0.002
(so we do not use the length of the magnet wire (144 turns on a 5cm diameter (= circumference 15.7cm)  = 22.6m because of the capacitors/inductors forming a transmision line of 65cm).


As we see roughly 10 (or 11) resonance peaks, can we conclude we have 10 (or 11) different standing waves on this helicap line like shown in the below picture?

Itsu
   
img  verpies
Re: Some "New" Observations « Reply #424 on: 2017-04-09, 17:44:46 »

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Generally, yes
   
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