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Author Topic: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research  (Read 52696 times)
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img  gotoluc
Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « on: 2010-01-17, 05:02:09 »
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Hi everyone :D

This topic is part of my ongoing research work at this time. This bench has been setup for me by the Forum Moderator so that anyone can read including guests. My research has always been freely shared and I will continue to do so. However if you would like to post in my bench space you need to PM me with the information you would like to share so I can invite you to contribute. Thanks for understanding.

I have a new video demonstrating a Flynn Parallel Path Device that I have built.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kAO44dOC6m0

The coils and cores I used are from shaded pole motors which are used in 50 CFM Bathroom exhaust fans @ $20.ea. I though of trying these before investing too much time and money in this device.

I must say that I'm impressed with the results and we also need to keep in mind that my video is only demonstrating the flux release side when the coils are activated and not demonstrating the more then double the magnetic flux attraction power at the opposite end.


I also think this effect can make an interesting motor. Here is a video I found on YouTube of someone that has built on using the Flynn Parallel Path concept. Notice that when his motor is under load the current does not go up. I find this very interesting ???  Isn't the Orbo doing the same thing :-\   I would like to invite our Forum Moderator (poynt99) to give his opinion as to what he believes why the current is not increasing when the motor is under load like a conventional motor.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yoM4Qjmduk

Thanks for looking

Luc
« Last Edit: 2010-01-17, 05:44:05 by gotoluc »
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #1 on: 2010-01-17, 05:37:32 »
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My next experiment and idea is to use the Flynn Parallel Path device and add some pickup coils on each ends to see what would happen ;D
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #2 on: 2010-01-18, 06:47:52 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: gotoluc on 2010-01-17, 05:02:09
I also think this effect can make an interesting motor. Here is a video I found on YouTube of someone that has built on using the Flynn Parallel Path concept. Notice that when his motor is under load the current does not go up. I find this very interesting ???  Isn't the Orbo doing the same thing :-\   I would like to invite our Forum Moderator (poynt99) to give his opinion as to what he believes why the current is not increasing when the motor is under load like a conventional motor.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yoM4Qjmduk

Thanks for looking

Luc

Luc,

The Flynn technology or method is similar in a way to the Orbo motor--it's based on the ability to switch or re-direct flux.

In either case, we as observers of these devices need to invert our way of thinking in order to understand how they work, and I think you're already doing that. In brief, the device (motor OR actuator) does most of its work during the time we are NOT supplying power to the coil(s). For best efficiency there will be an optimum duty-cycle for the coil pulse. This optimum duty-cycle may even change based on a particular load and rpm, in the case of a motor.

Now, the power to the Orbo motor remains constant with load because in that case power to pulse the toroid coil is always at a maximum (or some high value), no matter what the RPM or load. This is because very little bemf is induced.

In the case of the PPMT, (if they made their motor similar to how Flynn shows one) and according to Flynn, the motor does exhibit a bemf, but this is countered by a generator effect for part of the cycle which tends to take some of the load off the power supply. The result is a near flat current demand regardless of load.

Hope that helped more than it hindered ;)

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #3 on: 2010-01-18, 16:39:30 »
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Thanks for your reply .99 ;)

Your explanations or advice are sound to me.

Thanks for your time

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #4 on: 2010-01-19, 23:43:15 »
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Hi everyone,

I have an update video of the Flynn Parallel path device since my first test was not well done. You will see the results are even better in this test 2 video then the previous one.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i91F5VQD4JM

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #5 on: 2010-02-05, 05:19:58 »
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Hi all,

a test I made that maybe of interest ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s6z1cgnrzWs

Luc
   
img  wattsup
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #6 on: 2010-02-05, 15:22:55 »
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@gotoluc

Nice video. I like you little motor set-up.

If you have a toroid coil or any other air coil, connect it to a dioded high mF capacitor and put your volt meter on the capacitor, then bring that coil near the turning magnets to see how much voltage can rise in side the cap tank. If you have enough of these small toroid or air coils around the turning magnets, you can maybe catch enough energy to loop that energy back to the drive coil side. The trick is to use many small air or toroid coils so the magnets cannot get dragged down when the coils energize with the magnet induced power. I would use a germanium diode on the cap tank.

Anyways good work as usual.


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img  gotoluc
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #7 on: 2010-02-05, 16:47:55 »
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Hi Wattsup :)

thanks for looking and posting your comment and coil idea ;)

After doing the video I found out that the coil core I used has a small amount of magnetism in it that was not in my favor as it was the same pole as my magnets :P. So I used a coil of a shaded pole motor and stuck two AM radio antenna ferrite bars in for core and got the motor turning faster (315 RPM) and using only 4 ma @ 2.84vdc. I also collect the flyback without effects to performance and have 4vdc on the 10K load. There is also next to no change when I load the motor now.

If you want to see a new video of the setup now just let me know.

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #8 on: 2010-02-11, 06:57:16 »
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Hi everyone,

just completed winding my first Toroid coil to start testing the Orbo concept.

I wound my coil in a special way and it seems to be giving some promising results.

Have a look at my GOBO test 3 video which is truly my first Toroid test. Let me know what you think.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O6XjpdYxfs

Luc
   
img  Chet K
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #9 on: 2010-02-11, 11:19:09 »
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Luc

Thank you for sharing all that hard work!

I really hope you are on to something with that "wind idea"

Then maybe "Thane" can wind some Toroids for you ;D

Chet
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #10 on: 2010-02-12, 02:52:23 »
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Hi all,

here is a new video that better demonstrate the differences between a single coil toroid over a dual split coil toroid since I did not show the difference between the two in the last video.

I did build a new rotor to accommodate 2 magnets but before adding the second set of magnets I decided to do this video (single magnets) so we have a measuring difference using the same rotor since the rotor characteristics have now changed.

I didn't have enough time at the end of the video to do an Inductance test of the coil once in the preferable configuration, so here are the numbers:

880mH @ TDC (coil on position)
1,050mH @ (coil off position)
6.75 Ohm DC Resistance

Also single coil resistance is 3.35 Ohms

I will be away for the next 2 days, so the dual magnet test will have to wait till maybe Sunday.

I don't understand this effect, so if anyone has an idea of what's going on please share.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bOojYp07C7M

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #11 on: 2010-02-12, 05:33:17 »
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Hi all,

a last quick update!

I added the top row of South pole magnets to the rotor and basically the current is half of what it was. I also had to back out the core about 2mm as it was getting noisy.

The current is now around 8.6ma @ 1.58vdc with the coils connected in the preferred dual mode. RPM is 195 from 210 with single magnets and flyback at 1K load is 1.19vdc from 1.43vdc with single magnets.

Inductance @TDC is 793mH and 1,053mH at off position.

That's all for a few days.

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #12 on: 2010-02-17, 04:19:25 »
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Hi everyone,

here is a new video an maybe my last video of GOBO as I've tested many things and this is the best as I can get it to at this time.

Link to video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wR73v0uovR4

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #13 on: 2010-02-17, 04:34:45 »
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This video is now deleted as it was incorrect.

See next page for explanation

Luc
« Last Edit: 2010-02-17, 21:25:53 by gotoluc »
   
img  wattsup
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #14 on: 2010-02-17, 05:45:44 »
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@gotoluc

Nice work. Did you try it by shorting one half of the toroid, or one coil of the two in the half half wound one, like Thane does.

Also, try running with the half half and using the othe rone as a generator coil to see how much it can produce or send back to the front. I am a real fanatic for looping things these days.lol


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img  MileHigh
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #15 on: 2010-02-17, 10:18:52 »
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May I suggest Luc that you try to understand the three waveforms that are on your scope shot.  Honestly at first glance I am not sure what is going on there.  I see what looks like a voltage probe across the coil but without seeing the circuit on paper and seeing the timing of the 555 signal it is hard to know what is going on.  I assume that the coil is being switched on and off with a MOSFET switch but I am not sure.  I assume that the coil discharge is going through a diode into a capacitor in parallel with a resistor but I would like to see how with a schematic diagram and know the values of all of the components.  I would also need to know where the ground reference is for your waveform.  You should be showing the switching timing signal on the second channel of your scope.

The Steorn claim that by having the inductance increase dynamically with respect to time you can get a bigger collapsing field spike because the current stays the same is false.  If you have a dynamic inductor with respect to time with current running through it and no outside influences are affecting it, then the current through the coil will decrease if the inductance increases.

But in my opinion, the real challenge here is to understand your three waveforms.  Start off with the two simpler waveforms and then move on to the first waveform which is more complicated because the core is moving up and down.  If you understand the waveforms then understanding why your DC voltage across your resistor+capacitor load changes for the three different tests should fall out of that.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #16 on: 2010-02-17, 16:56:47 »
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Quote from: wattsup on 2010-02-17, 05:45:44
@gotoluc

Nice work. Did you try it by shorting one half of the toroid, or one coil of the two in the half half wound one, like Thane does.

Also, try running with the half half and using the othe rone as a generator coil to see how much it can produce or send back to the front. I am a real fanatic for looping things these days.lol

Hi Wattsup,

I did try shorting one half of the toroid. The results are super clean waveform (like signal generator) and no flyback. The downfall is a slight increase in current and about 90 RMP on rotor compared to around 300 RPM not shorted.

Using a toroid as a generator in this configuration is not efficient. Even the Orbo uses different coil for energy generation.

Thanks for your suggestions.

Luc
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #17 on: 2010-02-17, 17:28:45 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-02-17, 10:18:52
May I suggest Luc that you try to understand the three waveforms that are on your scope shot.  Honestly at first glance I am not sure what is going on there.  I see what looks like a voltage probe across the coil but without seeing the circuit on paper and seeing the timing of the 555 signal it is hard to know what is going on.  I assume that the coil is being switched on and off with a MOSFET switch but I am not sure.  I assume that the coil discharge is going through a diode into a capacitor in parallel with a resistor but I would like to see how with a schematic diagram and know the values of all of the components.  I would also need to know where the ground reference is for your waveform.  You should be showing the switching timing signal on the second channel of your scope.

The Steorn claim that by having the inductance increase dynamically with respect to time you can get a bigger collapsing field spike because the current stays the same is false.  If you have a dynamic inductor with respect to time with current running through it and no outside influences are affecting it, then the current through the coil will decrease if the inductance increases.

But in my opinion, the real challenge here is to understand your three waveforms.  Start off with the two simpler waveforms and then move on to the first waveform which is more complicated because the core is moving up and down.  If you understand the waveforms then understanding why your DC voltage across your resistor+capacitor load changes for the three different tests should fall out of that.

MileHigh

Hi MileHigh,

the scope probe is across the coil (ground on the negative side). The three peeks are just three separate pulse. The 555 is controlling a mosfet to turn on and off the coil at about 11.5Hz. The 555 duty cycle is also adjusted so not to waste power (just enough to pull the core up) The 2,200uf capacitor with 1K Ohm load is collecting coil flyback in the standard way using a single diode with anode connected to negative side of the coil and cathode to positive side of capacitor. Negative side of capacitor is connected to positive side of coil.

So basically the coil is switched on when the core is partly out of the coil (lower inductance) and switched off when the core is fully in the coil (higher inductance)

The test results seems to indicate that the increase in inductance during the coils on time does in fact produce a higher flyback energy compared to when I prevent the core to go in the coil. However, the output increase is not very large, so I'm at a loss as to how the Orbo benefits of this effect.

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #18 on: 2010-02-17, 21:24:30 »
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Hi everyone,

I deleted the inductance gain test video (posted in previous page) as I did some new tests today and I now can confirmed that there is no energy gain if inductance is increased during a coil energizing period (on time).

I had not realized that when the core dropped back down when switched off it induced a current in the coil because of the magnet I add to the core. That is where the gain was coming from.

I will delete the video posted in the previous page as it maybe misleading and not mention confusing ;D

Luc
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #19 on: 2010-02-17, 23:09:40 »
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Good luck on future tests Luc and thanks for the description.  The thing that I wanted to mention is that naturally just having the core in the coil means that the inductance is larger so you may be able to store more energy per pulse in that case.

MileHigh
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #20 on: 2010-02-18, 00:49:49 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Luc,

There was Orbo... then GOBO,... why not Gorbo? LOL.

Anyway, if you want to try an Orbo replication, I think I can help you with that. I have some insights that will make yours somewhat unique and flexible in a way.

1) You'll need to get a core that is meant to be used in magnetic regulators (saturable core type) such as a TN23/14/7 3R1 by Ferroxcube. The core JLN used (TN23/14/7 3E25) might be a contender as well, but it would take some experimentation.

2) You need to replace the reed switch with either a MOSFET or a MOSFET-based Solid State Relay (SSR) (preferred), and use your reed switch to drive either one On and OFF (there is a certain "device property" that is too small or non-existent in reed switches that precludes them from getting the Orbo "effect"). The SSR's are expensive, but they are very handy and you'll be able to use them for many other experiments. One of the the beauties of them is they are easy to drive, and they work as both a high side or low side switch. Steorn uses a SSR in the high-side configuration.

3) Do not use a flyback diode across the coil (or at all), and switch it with about 1.5V as you are now.

4) If you can go with the SSR and build it in the high-side configuration, you can more easily scope the coil voltage and coil current, because both can be ground-referenced. I think your scope does math, but does it do integration?

That's a good start anyway. The goal would be to obtain the same blue scope trace that Steorn did in their last demo of so-called OU.

Regards,
.99

PS. If my simulation of the Steorn wave form is successful, I think I'll call it "Simbo".  ;D


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  poynt99
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #21 on: 2010-02-18, 02:43:48 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Luc,

If you want to stick with only your reed switch, I believe I have a solution that will still allow you to get the "Orbo Effect".

It would be best still to get a core more suited to sharp saturation such as the one I suggested last post.

,99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  gotoluc
Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #22 on: 2010-02-18, 03:36:56 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2010-02-17, 23:09:40
Good luck on future tests Luc and thanks for the description.  The thing that I wanted to mention is that naturally just having the core in the coil means that the inductance is larger so you may be able to store more energy per pulse in that case.

MileHigh

Yes MileHigh that is correct!... a coil with core will have more inductance. I do know that.

The test was to re-create a certain condition that happens in the Steorn's Orbo.  They claim that if a coil is energized at a lower inductance value and the inductance  increases during its energization period, it will have an energy gain when switched off.

After much testing I can't seem to see this or be able to recreate it. Too bad it doesn't work! :P  since I had a good motor idea that could of used this gain ;D

Oh well... back to the drawing board ::)

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #23 on: 2010-02-18, 04:23:22 »
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Quote from: poynt99 on 2010-02-18, 00:49:49
Luc,

There was Orbo... then GOBO,... why not Gorbo? LOL.

Anyway, if you want to try an Orbo replication, I think I can help you with that. I have some insights that will make yours somewhat unique and flexible in a way.

1) You'll need to get a core that is meant to be used in magnetic regulators (saturable core type) such as a TN23/14/7 3R1 by Ferroxcube. The core JLN used (TN23/14/7 3E25) might be a contender as well, but it would take some experimentation.

2) You need to replace the reed switch with either a MOSFET or a MOSFET-based Solid State Relay (SSR) (preferred), and use your reed switch to drive either one On and OFF (there is a certain "device property" that is too small or non-existent in reed switches that precludes them from getting the Orbo "effect"). The SSR's are expensive, but they are very handy and you'll be able to use them for many other experiments. One of the the beauties of them is they are easy to drive, and they work as both a high side or low side switch. Steorn uses a SSR in the high-side configuration.

3) Do not use a flyback diode across the coil (or at all), and switch it with about 1.5V as you are now.

4) If you can go with the SSR and build it in the high-side configuration, you can more easily scope the coil voltage and coil current, because both can be ground-referenced. I think your scope does math, but does it do integration?

That's a good start anyway. The goal would be to obtain the same blue scope trace that Steorn did in their last demo of so-called OU.

Regards,
.99

PS. If my simulation of the Steorn wave form is successful, I think I'll call it "Simbo".  ;D

Thanks for the information .99

will a AC SSR work with DC also? since most of them are AC rated. Here is an inexpensive one: http://cgi.ebay.com/ZG1NC-210D-Solid-State-Relay-10A-Output-0-220VAC_W0QQitemZ310150524782QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4836696f6e

Would be easier to use then what I do now ;)

I don't want to spend extra money on special cores at this time since I feel something else is at play. I've also just found something new and I'll share it if it gives me positive results after more testing.

My biggest problem is the need of accurate switching and mostly control the switching period. This is the problem with reed switches and using the magnets on the rotor as I can't get the on periods all the same or long enough. I need Optical Interrupters controlling low resistance mosfet to make it work.

To your knowledge, which is the best mosfet model that will work at these low voltages with next to no gate resistance?

Thanks for your help.

Luc
   
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Re: Mostly Magnet Motor and Generator Coil Research « Reply #24 on: 2010-02-18, 05:00:44 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Hi Luc,

No, you want the DC relays....MOSFET switch type.

There is one here, but they want $25 for shipping. You can ask if they will do USPS, which should be much cheaper.

The cores shouldn't be that expensive, but I haven't found them yet.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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