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OverUnity Research > Benches > Grumage (Moderator: Grumage) > N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2
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Author Topic: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2  (Read 40108 times)
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img  JimBoot
N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « on: 2017-04-22, 00:15:31 »

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Quote from: Grumage on 2017-04-21, 18:23:16
Hi Carroll.

Yes indeed, that looks rather a large one.

I have been a bit preoccupied today trying to sort out the mess over at OU. Com. I have actually locked the topic at 18.00 BST today.

If there is still an interest I will open a topic here at OUR, it's sad though because I felt it would bring a few newcomers into this area of research. Hey ho.....

Kind regards, Graham.

Well I'm still building so yeah I'd be interested in somewhere to ask dumb questions other than your skype  ;D
   
img  Chet K
Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #1 on: 2017-04-22, 00:21:17 »
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I'm told this would be good to do here   [unless we get the mess fixed at Stefan's quickly
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #2 on: 2017-04-22, 03:02:10 »

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Quote from: Chet K on 2017-04-22, 00:21:17
I'm told this would be good to do here   [unless we get the mess fixed at Stefan's quickly

Cool just got mine running. Tweaking now.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #3 on: 2017-04-22, 07:12:52 »

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A very interesting circuit. Lighting up the neons on a few milliwatts of input. Sooo many different wave forms but have not seen TKs yet.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #4 on: 2017-04-22, 09:11:07 »
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Have you seen these?    :D
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #5 on: 2017-04-22, 09:49:51 »

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Yes!
Ps stRted using yoke but getting better results on a met glass 25mm torpid.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #6 on: 2017-04-22, 10:28:21 »
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That first one is a beayooootiful ringdown! I haven't seen anything that pure in mine.

I also have used a little bitty toroid instead of the yoke. I get higher voltages in the spikes with the little toroid, but there isn't room in there for the inner inductor thing that I put in series with the Collector.

Oh, and why don't you use the screensave function on your scope? Just stick a thumbdrive in the front hole and press the little "print" key under the Help button. The file size and image pixel dimensions will be much nicer for forum use.

   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #7 on: 2017-04-22, 11:03:27 »
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #8 on: 2017-04-22, 11:51:08 »
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Yes, good idea, please move my posts on this topic over to this thread if possible.    O0
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #9 on: 2017-04-22, 16:02:05 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-22, 11:51:08
Yes, good idea, please move my posts on this topic over to this thread if possible.    O0

I think you would have to copy paste post.
   
img  Chet K
Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #10 on: 2017-04-22, 16:26:47 »
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Peter has a way he  moves thyem so they flow with the rest of the thread.

will see if he can do it better than "copy paste" ?

PS
still waiting to hear from Stefan ,will ring him again tomorrow if I don't hear back by then
as I mentioned he is Moving house ATM
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #11 on: 2017-04-22, 16:37:19 »

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Here is Grum's original post at OU.com

Dear All.

Welcome to a new thread dedicated to Nelson Rocha and his Mini Radiant Exciter circuit. Builders most welcome.

I used the Acronym N.R.M.R.E. as it's quite a mouthful and I'm rubbish at typing !!  :)

For deeper research might I suggest a visit to Nelson's You Tube channel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/batraquioo0


Here's a couple of Nelson's videos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfpG9wFw4iI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TjK6OlYO9Aw

It's already very clear that the circuits in the videos differ quite strongly from the posted schematic below.... This is where you guys n gals come in!!    ;)

Investigation!!

I built a version some time ago. Video here. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6lmd0HKxOw

I found this when my channel suggestions came up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iER4K1O7iMc

Nelson's work has inspired a few!  Thank you Nelson Rocha.

Good luck everyone, Graham.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #12 on: 2017-04-22, 16:54:51 »

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Ok here is my exp today.
Really fun to play with for starters. It sometimes just runs away and wants as much current as it can get then does interesting stuff at 13ma.

I could not get a 300v 4700nf at Jaycar so I have a 100v 4700nf . My transformer I bought today 9v - 240v It was the closest I could get.

Diodes are UF4003

I started with a Yoke as my core for my coils because I had seen TKs  work. The wire on mine though was multistrand plastic coated and maybe 30 turns. It was interesting The neon lit at under 1 volt . The best I had today was 5mw of input to light the neon. That was with a metglass core .5mm 50 turns. I'm wondering though if what I'm seeing is what I see when I hold a neon near a slayer exciter? I couldn't measure voltage across the neon. Might just be a bad dmm? I did not see the wave that TK first published (attached) but his wiring was more transformer like so I'm thinking of winding another core. I'll also upload some odd scope shots.

   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #13 on: 2017-04-22, 17:22:56 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-22, 10:28:21
That first one is a beayooootiful ringdown! I haven't seen anything that pure in mine.

I also have used a little bitty toroid instead of the yoke. I get higher voltages in the spikes with the little toroid, but there isn't room in there for the inner inductor thing that I put in series with the Collector.

Oh, and why don't you use the screensave function on your scope? Just stick a thumbdrive in the front hole and press the little "print" key under the Help button. The file size and image pixel dimensions will be much nicer for forum use.

It's quicker to take a pic with the phone and upload directly than muck about with a thumb drive but I will soon so I can show measurements etc. That wave was fascinating. It just locked in. I could take all the way to 10v but then current would run away. The just lit up in a stable, 2 bars solid,  no flickering  light. That wave like more current than others. I also attempted the "parametric oscillator" with a bit of rolled up transformer steel as the core. It's hard to tell the difference but things seem stronger but blunter, if that makes any sense at all.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #14 on: 2017-04-22, 17:30:59 »

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Also transistors I have tried Tip122 MJE13007G (best perf at low voltage) and one other can't remember the name will post when back out on the bench tomorrow. I've been playing with cap values but I think I should be winding on a variety of cores and gauges. Just need a simple design to switch them easily.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #15 on: 2017-04-22, 17:34:20 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-22, 11:03:27
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=so5OY5OBoJU

I can't help it.    :P
Oh man that was funny. I've answered your other Qs at the new thread.
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #16 on: 2017-04-22, 19:58:53 »
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It's turtles all the way down

The circuit as it stands is a basic blocking oscillator (aka JT) with a high gain Darlington in place of the standard single transistor used in such circuits. Due to the high gain of the TIP122, the circuit may be very prone to several parasitic oscillation points depending on the bias and other factors.

The use of the 4700 pF capacitor on the secondary of the saturating choke T2 partially rings the secondary making it somewhat resonant.

I have redrawn the original N Rocha circuit that includes the components inside the TIP122 and the possible saturable biasing core of Zephir's hypothesis.

If anyone is interested I will post it here with some additional notes and analysis.

Regards


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #17 on: 2017-04-22, 20:04:39 »

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Quote from: ION on 2017-04-22, 19:58:53
The circuit as it stands is a basic blocking oscillator (aka JT) with a high gain Darlington in place of the standard single transistor used in such circuits. Due to the high gain of the TIP122, the circuit may be very prone to several parasitic oscillation points depending on the bias and other factors.

The use of the 4700 pF capacitor on the secondary of the saturating choke T2 partially rings the secondary making it somewhat resonant.

I have redrawn the original N Rocha circuit that includes the components inside the TIP122 and the possible saturable biasing core of Zephir's hypothesis.

If anyone is interested I will post it here with some additional notes and analysis.

Regards

Dear ION.

Yes please.    O0

As TinselKoala has shown in his last video the circuit seems to,  is " Harvest " the correct word?  Ambient energy.

Kind regards, Graham.


---------------------------
Nanny state ? Left at the gate !! :)
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #18 on: 2017-04-22, 20:24:29 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Here is the first draft, drawn with conventional input on left, output on right, rails at top and bottom.

Since the bridge rectifiers were not identified, I left them with "?"

Any errors spotted I will correct in the next release. ?

Has TK posted his ambient energy harvesting data? (or is it implied in that alt snakeoil video)?

From the waveforms I've seen thus far, the circuit seems unstable and will tend to bounce between several operating modes at the slightest external interference or synchronization with ambient externally generated frequencies or static magnetic fields large enough to couple to the core (depending on bias setting).

Hence TK's black box magic trick.

Regards
« Last Edit: 2017-04-23, 01:08:41 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #19 on: 2017-04-23, 00:12:49 »
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I'm having trouble reconciling that new schematic with the ones I've seen and used before. In particular the position of the 4700pF capacitor. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right, but in the topologies in the original schematic and in Itsu's redraw this capacitor is across the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB as well as one of the windings of the toroid.

I'm willing to try just about anything though.

(I wouldn't call the alt.snakeoil demonstration "ambient energy harvesting". The disturbance in the Force from the Black Box is just kicking the very sensitive NRJT blocking oscillator into another mode of operation; the power that is brightening the neon is coming from the JT's power supply. You can't really see it in the video but the current draw goes up quite a bit when the BB is switched on. With other settings of the input power and the pot, the BB can "kill" the NRJT's oscillations completely.)
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #20 on: 2017-04-23, 00:37:40 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Looking into it now.

OK found the problem and reloaded it with a ver1.01

I fixed two errors on my redraw. I had the FWB going to ground, should have gone to the diode decoupled source. Then the 4700pF needed to go after the small inductor It was a first draft so thanks for catching that.

If you change the wire passing through the core in the original hand drawn schematic to a tiny inductor you will see that the capacitor needs to be after this inductor. The collector of the transistor always goes directly to the CW of T2.

All outputs are after this small inductor, which nowhere appears on the original (unless it is the wire passing through the T2 core).

 In the last posted drawing (you posted?)  it is revised with an inductor, but the inductor is between the collector and the CW winding, which position does not agree with the original hand drawn schematic.

If we can agree that the small inductor is represented by the wire passing through the toroid T2, then we may all be on the same page.

Regards



« Last Edit: 2017-04-23, 01:36:05 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #21 on: 2017-04-23, 00:44:37 »

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Quote from: TinselKoala on 2017-04-23, 00:12:49
I'm having trouble reconciling that new schematic with the ones I've seen and used before. In particular the position of the 4700pF capacitor. Maybe I'm just not seeing it right, but in the topologies in the original schematic and in Itsu's redraw this capacitor is across the AC inputs to the "charger" FWB as well as one of the windings of the toroid.

I'm willing to try just about anything though.

(I wouldn't call the alt.snakeoil demonstration "ambient energy harvesting". The disturbance in the Force from the Black Box is just kicking the very sensitive NRJT blocking oscillator into another mode of operation; the power that is brightening the neon is coming from the JT's power supply. You can't really see it in the video but the current draw goes up quite a bit when the BB is switched on. With other settings of the input power and the pot, the BB can "kill" the NRJT's oscillations completely.)
Mine certainly also is not unstable it jumps around as you are turning the pot but doesn't seem . All I could come up was a hidden exciter inside the case interfering or attenuating. I haven't seen evidence of harvesting.

T
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #22 on: 2017-04-23, 00:45:07 »
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Has anyone actually seen any "HV Radiant" from the output side yet? I haven't, but that could be down to the little transformer I'm using, or circuit discrepancies.

However my own "Mini Exciter" does produce plenty "HV radiant" whatever that is. And with lots fewer parts.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OgndINJHnd0
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #23 on: 2017-04-23, 00:53:22 »
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Quote from: JimBoot on 2017-04-23, 00:44:37
Mine certainly also is not unstable it jumps around as you are turning the pot but doesn't seem . All I could come up was a hidden exciter inside the case interfering or attenuating. I haven't seen evidence of harvesting.

T

If I try to use 10v input the current draw is excessive and the transistor heats up really fast. Plus I haven't seen anything quite like that nice squarish waveform with the beautiful ringing either. I do think I'm seeing some changes in performance, possibly due to degradation of the transistor from the 90 volt or greater spikes. Even though the first transistor hasn't failed-hard, I just now changed it out for a fresh one.

I can certainly adjust it to where it shows ringing but not exactly like yours.
   
img  TinselKoala
Re: N.R.M.R.E. An investigation. V.2 « Reply #24 on: 2017-04-23, 00:55:47 »
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Quote from: ION on 2017-04-23, 00:37:40
Looking into it now

The main discrepancy seems to be in how you have the AC inputs of the charger FWB connected.  I think.
   
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