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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Devices > Inductive Kickback Circuits > Cool joule ss/ssg
2024-05-27, 01:54:29
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Author Topic: Cool joule ss/ssg  (Read 87983 times)
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img  EMdevices
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #25 on: 2013-04-30, 04:02:52 »
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tinman,

that is impressive, but I must ask,  how discharged was this first battery?  (I'm assuming it was charged by the circuit from the run battery)?

Quote
The first charged battery ran the garden light for 3h50m-so about 40 minutes short of a battery charged conventionally -keeping in mind that we only used .003 volts from the run battery to charge it .

If you want to get fanatical with this circuit, I suggest seting it up to measure the Power Input and Power Output, similarly to how Tesung does it,  I would suggest a resistor for measuring the current, by observing the voltage drop across it, however, unlike what Tesung does, I suggest building an OP Amp to amplify this low voltage, maybe 100 times, since you have so little current flow from the run battery.  I think a 10 ohm resistor would be fine as well.   The Op Amp would have to be calibrated accurately, but its doable.  As we all know, measuring the current flow is the most accurate way to determine power flow out of a battery, because voltage alone is not enough especially around mid-charge when it doesn't change much.

EM
   
img  tinman
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #26 on: 2013-04-30, 13:35:33 »
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@EM
The charge battery was discharged in one of the solar garden light's.It stops running when the battery voltage gets to around .74 volt's,so the battery was quite discharged when i started the charge cycle.

Here is day 3 update video.The larger coil circuit(lower resistance)didnt do aswell,but that may have been the tip2955 pnp transistor i used?.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzu4-rTQOok
   
img  Chet K
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #27 on: 2013-05-01, 03:58:53 »
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Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #28 on: 2013-05-01, 13:06:03 »
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@Chet
That is interesting,but very hard to believe-Mmm :o But i guess with the many claim's out there that turn out to be bogus,it isnt hard to think that way.This is why i post what i have,and the guy's here that are better at reading a scope,can tell me what im seeing-although i am learning fast on scope's(online course).
Now here is a little something that should have the best of them thinking.-Now how exactly is the trigger coil powering the base of the transistor?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7DlD8MIEes
   
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Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #29 on: 2013-05-01, 17:13:42 »

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Frequency equals matter...


Buy me a drink
I posted the answer.
Quote

Very easy.

There is a magnetic storm in the environment. Here the shishing in the background?

That is a wide spectrum noise generation. Magnetic white noise.

Try putting the trigger coil in an aluminium tube.


---------------------------
http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/
   
img  muDped
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #30 on: 2013-05-01, 19:05:05 »

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Chet,

The paper you referenced in #27 above is
interesting.  It would seem to confirm other
studies which have been done on the pulsed
electrolysis phenomenon where increased
efficiency of hydrogen and oxygen production
has been documented.

It also would seem to confirm what Bob Boyce
had discovered regarding nanosecond pulses
at certain critical frequencies.

There are questions regarding the simplified
schematic diagram in the paper and how the
pulses are actually produced but if the process
can be duplicated experimentally it would be
a major breakthrough.

The circuit does bear a similarity to the Stan
Meyer Voltage Intensifier.

We shall see...


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For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  muDped
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #31 on: 2013-05-01, 19:10:23 »

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TinMan,

Your oscillator circuit which makes use of
the 3055 Power Transistor seems to defy
logic and common sense, but there must
be an explanation somewhere in there.

Have you discovered some unknown
characteristic of this transistor which is
not normally used in low voltage/low power
circuits?

Is the transistor type critical at all or can
others be used to attain the same result?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  ion
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #32 on: 2013-05-01, 19:57:42 »
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It's turtles all the way down
The DC current gain of a 2N3055 lies between 20 and 70 at a current of 4 Amps. You have way less than 4 Amps so the current gain can be as high as 125 at room temperature. This is certainly more than enough gain for oscillator criteria.

The DC resistance of your coil is 178 Ohms so with 1.2 volts your max load can be no more than 6 mA. This is well off the chart for a 2N3055 gain curve.

Your tickler coil in this case could be called a "loose coupler" (old radio jargon) and will work just fine as a drive for the 2N3055 as long as long as you don't significantly increase collector current.

Your aluminum tube is not really a shield as magnetic pulsations can easily pass through or enter the ends. It needs to be completely enclosed in a ferromagnetic high mu shield to disrupt operation.

A system with positive feedback and gain a bit greater than "1" will satisfy oscillation criteria under the correct circuit conditions. You have way more than a gain of "1" so the continued oscillation with increased distance between coils does not surprise me.
I was able to do this with a simple FET oscillator.

From your scope waveform  it looks like you are not hard switching the transistor, rather just barely tickling the base.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  muDped
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #33 on: 2013-05-01, 20:15:22 »

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Quote from: ION
Your tickler coil in this case could be called a "loose coupler" (old radio jargon) and will work just fine as a drive for the 2N3055 as long as long as you don't significantly increase collector current.

What is so puzzling about how the circuit
operates is that once oscillation is initiated,
the "tickler coil" seems unnecessary insofar
as feedback is concerned.

Sweeping a magnet past the tickler is sufficient
to initiate transistor turn-on and startup the
oscillation, but one must wonder what the
actual feedback mechanism is which sustains
the oscillation.  Is it internal to the transistor
such as the Collector/Base capacitance or is
it something else?

Perhaps TinMan will substitute a small signal
transistor such as the 2N2222 in place of the
3055 to make comparisons.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  ion
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #34 on: 2013-05-01, 20:52:26 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Dumped:

I agree with what you say. Under certain conditions the Miller effect capacitance (C-B) can form an oscillator with the B-E capacitance and shunt inductance. This is quite the possibility. Also stray capacitance external to the device can contribute.

Your idea is good too replace the 2N3055 with a 2N2222 or equivalent. 6mA is well within the collector current rating.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  BEP
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #35 on: 2013-05-01, 21:42:02 »
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tinman,

Have you tried disconnecting everything going to the base?

If it still oscillates I have your answer  C.C
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #36 on: 2013-05-01, 22:16:47 »
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This type of oscillator does oscillate because of the NPN or PNP transistor junctions.
For a NPN oscillator the NP layer between collector and base will charge the trigger
coil each time the pulse in the power coil goes negative. For a PNP transistor based
oscillator the positive pulse in the power coil will charge the trigger coil. There is no
need to have a magnetic coupling between the trigger coil and the power coil to get
this type of oscillator to oscillate. If you want a self start oscillator then put a capacitor
in series with the trigger coil and a bias resistor to get the base over the trigger
voltage threshold.

GL.
   
img  BEP
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #37 on: 2013-05-01, 22:45:58 »
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Oh!

GL is right. I didn't realize your oscillator wasn't self-starting and should have known from your schematic.

Had it been, I suspected your polarities were reversed for the transistor in use and you built yourself an NRO (negative resistance oscillator).

 
   
img  tinman
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #38 on: 2013-05-01, 23:43:56 »
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Quote from: ION on 2013-05-01, 19:57:42


Your aluminum tube is not really a shield as magnetic pulsations can easily pass through or enter the ends. It needs to be completely enclosed in a ferromagnetic high mu shield to disrupt operation.


From your scope waveform  it looks like you are not hard switching the transistor, rather just barely tickling the base.
Hi ION
The tube is steel,and has two large magnets inside it. I can not see any small weak magnetic field effecting the trigger coil in this situation.
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #39 on: 2013-05-02, 03:30:17 »
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I watched the latest tinman video, and I agree that the oscillator feedback is predominantly through the transistor's own internal capacitance, between collector and base.  No magnetic coupling is needed between the coils.


EM


PS

Here's a circuit simulation I just put together in LTspice.  I had no problem starting the oscillations with a quick pulse.  Note:  the coils are not magnetically coupled.

« Last Edit: 2013-05-02, 06:01:48 by EMdevices »
   
img  Groundloop
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #40 on: 2013-05-02, 10:01:28 »
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Quote from: EMdevices on 2013-05-02, 03:30:17
I watched the latest tinman video, and I agree that the oscillator feedback is predominantly through the transistor's own internal capacitance, between collector and base.  No magnetic coupling is needed between the coils.


EM


PS

Here's a circuit simulation I just put together in LTspice.  I had no problem starting the oscillations with a quick pulse.  Note:  the coils are not magnetically coupled.




>>"oscillator feedback is predominantly through the transistor's own internal capacitance, between collector and base."

No, not because of capacitance, but because of the DIODE layer between the collector and base.

GL.
   
img  tinman
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #41 on: 2013-05-02, 10:13:43 »
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Quote from: Groundloop on 2013-05-02, 10:01:28

>>"oscillator feedback is predominantly through the transistor's own internal capacitance, between collector and base."

No, not because of capacitance, but because of the DIODE layer between the collector and base.

GL.
With a diode layer between B&C,would it not act like a capacitor?.
Your comment has given me an idea GL-diode layer between C&B ;)
   
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Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #42 on: 2013-05-02, 10:33:54 »
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Quote from: tinman on 2013-05-02, 10:13:43
With a diode layer between B&C,would it not act like a capacitor?.
Your comment has given me an idea GL-diode layer between C&B ;)

Tinman,

Yes, a diode also have capacitance and this can be used in HF applications to get a signal path or
to tune a LC tank circuit by varying the voltage over the diode. In you circuit it is the PN diode
path between collector and base that is the main reason for charging your trigger coil so that
the oscillation can happen.

GL.
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #43 on: 2013-05-03, 02:17:56 »
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Wavewatcher,

you were right, it is indeed an NRO.  

 I replaced the coil on the base, and just give it an initial pulse to the base to start it, then it is electrically shorted to ground.   I've played with NRO's before if you remember, so it should of jumped out at me, but that coil on the base confused me.

edit:   I haven't played with LTspice in a while, and just discovered I'm being an idiot.   If I simulate for a longer time it becomes apparent the waveform decays, so the gain is < 1     :-[


EM
« Last Edit: 2013-05-03, 02:56:26 by EMdevices »
   
img  stprue
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #44 on: 2013-05-04, 12:52:39 »

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@Tinman

I have a close but not perfect replication of your circuit and it works as described.  This is day 2 and the LED is still bright.  The charge battery started at .5v and is not 1.2v approximately.  The other battery started at 1.55v and is now about 1.44v.  I used 2 different setups.  The first setup uses inductors and the second is a quad coil using 28 guage mag wire.  It is an air core but each winding is only about 21 ohms.
   
img  tinman
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #45 on: 2013-05-04, 13:31:47 »
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Quote from: stprue on 2013-05-04, 12:52:39
@Tinman

I have a close but not perfect replication of your circuit and it works as described.  This is day 2 and the LED is still bright.  The charge battery started at .5v and is not 1.2v approximately.  The other battery started at 1.55v and is now about 1.44v.  I used 2 different setups.  The first setup uses inductors and the second is a quad coil using 28 guage mag wire.  It is an air core but each winding is only about 21 ohms.


Nice going stprue.
I have another that is looped back onto the run battery(no charge battery),and the voltage has been climbing steady for 3 days now(gone up .6 of a volt)I believe that Slider done this some time ago,but haven't heard back from him yet on his results.
The original has been running 6 days now,and i have just swapped the run and charge batteries around-as the charge battery hit 1.34 volt's.Now we have to get the run battery back to it's original starting voltage of 1.228 volt's.It was already at 1.223 volt's after just 40 minutes running,so it should be done by tomorrow.I will then run that battery in one of the solar light's,and see if it will do the 4.5 hours run time like a well charged battery dose.
   
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Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #46 on: 2013-05-04, 13:52:52 »

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That sounds pretty cool.  Do you have a new diagram of your new set up?
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #47 on: 2013-05-04, 22:10:59 »
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Quote from: ramset on 2013-05-01, 03:58:53
TM
Off topic
I brought you something to Chew on over lunch.

http://www.ijee.ieefoundation.org/vol3/issue1/IJEE_13_v3n1.pdf

From here
http://www.overunity.com/13286/resonance-and-hho/msg359035/#new
Thx
Chet

The pulsed method draws about 0.57 watts, while the traditional DC electrolysis draws about 18 watts at 12 V, for the same amount of gas production. (0.58 mL/s)

It should be no surprise DC electrolysis is very inefficient, most of the current just heats up the water.  On the other hand, these guys hit it with a short 200 nano second pulse, and the cell rings (apparently at 100 MHz) and thus its incredibly efficient it seems, but I don't know how it compares with other efficient cells, because there's other techniques out there.

Do we have any chemists here?   I would like to know how much power is theoretically required for generating 0.58mL/s flow rates at STP conditions, giver a certain concentration of electrolytes.

EM
« Last Edit: 2013-05-04, 23:28:03 by EMdevices »
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #48 on: 2013-05-04, 22:44:01 »
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  On Tinman's cool-Joule, Lidmotor just posted a great little vid showing how to turn this into a radio transmitter:   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pLFXxKGnKw&feature=em-uploademail
   
img  EMdevices
Re: Cool joule ss/ssg « Reply #49 on: 2013-05-04, 23:25:04 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2013-05-04, 22:44:01
  On Tinman's cool-Joule, Lidmotor just posted a great little vid showing how to turn this into a radio transmitter:   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8pLFXxKGnKw&feature=em-uploademail



Lidmotor finally "discovers" AM modulation!   :D

EM
   
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