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OverUnity Research > Benches > Grumage (Moderator: Grumage) > Akula0083 30 watt self running generator.
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Author Topic: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator.  (Read 932739 times)
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img  ion
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1075 on: 2014-06-04, 01:48:34 »
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Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-06-04, 01:21:32
Good evening ION

Another discrepancy is the fact that the KT361A is a PNP and his schematic shows a NPN symbol.......   
Doesn't the Cathode go to ground on the PUT in standard configuration?
Akula has his upside down with the Anode on ground.

take care, peace
lost_bro

Hi lost bro
The polarity is correct for the PUT, as the negative end of C40 will charge to below ground, making the anode positive respectively.

I see that PUT's such as the 2N6027 is rated at 50 mA, 300mW max.

The transistor I agree is the wrong type, should be PNP.

The rest of the circuit is fairly easy to understand, nice to see Akula can design with standard parts and discrete transistors.

Although the PUT is claimed to be old, I used to design with them back in the day and they are nice parts. (guess that makes me old)  ;)

Some types include: 2N6027 2N6116 2N6119 MPU131 MPU231 SK3628

peace, ION


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  T-1000
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1076 on: 2014-06-04, 21:45:49 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-06-04, 01:48:34

The transistor I agree is the wrong type, should be PNP.

The KT361 is PNP as per specification.

I see confusion so fixed arrow in transistor marking on circuit.

P.S> The thyristor T1 should be blocking capacitor C40 discharge by default unless there is signal from VT14 to pass through.
   
img  MenofFather
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1077 on: 2014-06-05, 09:01:02 »
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Here I remove not nessary part, maybe for some be needed.
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1078 on: 2014-06-05, 12:05:30 »
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I like the placement of a choke there, that at least provides a good feed from positive to ground for recycling purposes...

I've been considering akula's screenshots.  3ns rise time... but with a 10ohm resistor before the gate in the KT805, it's only going to be only just barely on... enough that when Primary conducts, secondary also reacts, and causes a raise in the ground voltage, which closes the KT805 (base-emitter not high enough now). 

The pulses that result from such a condition are increasing frequency, and staggered at a 'fixed' distance... it's not really 'ferroresonance' more like 'ferro-feedback' ... but then the pulse from 7414 goes off, so only a couple of these spikes happen. 

which means primary feed of secondary must be from VD4,VD3,VD(unlabeled and choke) side to ground ...   or from ground to these? 

The issue would be, as drawn, all grounds are the same (which in theory they are), but relative placement of the parts is going to matter also... for instance if L2 is tied directly to the emitter of KT805, and then by a junction to another, because there is more space, the junction is slightly lagged... so maybe the mass ground of 1000u's and 100u's scattered all over don't apply as much....?

But the impedance of choke is going to make L2 go to a high voltage against Low MSR3545 and VD4 as capacitances...

So for that to happen, current 1 is to ground, then the high voltage and ground cause a sharp spike through L2 which is seen in the collector of KT805 from L1... partially becuase of ground distrtion partially just the pulse in the coil...



which will pull on unlabled, unparametered choke, which should feed from positive to ground...  actually the capcitance of VD3,VD4 causes the coil to revese quickly and conduct from ground with a very high voltage, which is the distortion on the feedback....


if the pulse width was wider it would be more spikes with a decaying time and magnitude


I dunno it's what the pulses look like to me, from playing with lots of inductances and chained transistors....

the transistor must be off for a high voltage to develop, and that's a forward EMF that drives that (continues sucking electrons)... in a diminishing current, which should reverse the other coil also which is already wanting to itself reverse conduct... ...  I dunno I'm losing the tought... 

One can make similar pulses just adding a small inductance to the emitter to ground.
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1079 on: 2014-06-05, 14:30:59 »
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Although... that doesn't explain the huge dip in voltage when (turning up the variable cap on the driver transistor?)
   
img  MenofFather
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1080 on: 2014-06-06, 13:46:11 »
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"which means primary feed of secondary must be from VD4,VD3,VD(unlabeled and choke) side to ground ...   or from ground to these? "
Only from VD3 getting energy back. From VD4 going to LED's.
   
img  ion
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1081 on: 2014-06-06, 14:14:40 »
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Quote from: MenofFather on 2014-06-06, 13:46:11
"which means primary feed of secondary must be from VD4,VD3,VD(unlabeled and choke) side to ground ...   or from ground to these? "
Only from VD3 getting energy back. From VD4 going to LED's.

Thanks MenofFather  and d2xor for your analysis.

Since there are no phasing dots on the transformer we can only guess the following:
VD3 supplies energy from the flyback pulse in standard fashion from the flyback pulse to charge C23, VD4 supplies energy to the LED's from the forward drive pulse (while the inductor is charging, forward di/dt) so the LED's seem to be supplied directly by the forward pulse, not the BEMF or flyback.

Of course, this could be in reverse of the above statement if one of the windings is reversed.

The other part of the circuit is a high voltage rectifier multiplier circuit whose charge buildup on C40 is timely discharged through the PUT T-1 into C23.

Akula misses giving a very important piece of information when he does not supply the phasing dots for the coupled inductors.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  T-1000
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1082 on: 2014-06-06, 17:11:20 »
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Quote from: ION on 2014-06-06, 14:14:40
Thanks MenofFather  and d2xor for your analysis.

Since there are no phasing dots on the transformer we can only guess the following:
VD3 supplies energy from the flyback pulse in standard fashion from the flyback pulse to charge C23, VD4 supplies energy to the LED's from the forward drive pulse (while the inductor is charging, forward di/dt) so the LED's seem to be supplied directly by the forward pulse, not the BEMF or flyback.

Of course, this could be in reverse of the above statement if one of the windings is reversed.

The other part of the circuit is a high voltage rectifier multiplier circuit whose charge buildup on C40 is timely discharged through the PUT T-1 into C23.

Akula misses giving a very important piece of information when he does not supply the phasing dots for the coupled inductors.
Well, I translated his explanation already - the capacitor C28 charge is on positive cycle half and the LEDs are on BEMF spikes in negative cycle half.
When BEMF reach maximum value he turns on transistor for positive cycle half which gives big pulse to capacitor C28 charge when mixed with BEMF. So he will be charging cap not from 9V but from 30-60V spike + current from primary coil.
Also the second circtuit part is to recharge primary power input cap over T1 when circuit -stops- running, this is attempt to reboot circuit after parameters change...
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1083 on: 2014-06-06, 17:21:05 »
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Quote from: T-1000 on 2014-06-06, 17:11:20
Well, I translated his explanation already - the capacitor C28 charge is on positive cycle half and the LEDs are on BEMF spikes in negative cycle half.
When BEMF reach maximum value he turns on transistor for positive cycle half which gives big pulse to capacitor C28 charge when mixed with BEMF. So he will be charging cap not from 9V but from 30-60V spike + current from primary coil.
Also the second circtuit part is to recharge primary power input cap over T1 when circuit -stops- running, this is attempt to reboot circuit after parameters change...

I don't see a C28: Edit( nevermind I found C28; it was a different font so I glanced over it not at it);  


Edit: the simulation works, until I cause current to flow in 2 different directions to a capacitor... that is a curernt flowing into the positive plate and a current flowing into the negative plate (overall gaining in postiive) but if there's 'A' displacmeent current... can that be simultaneously bidirectional?  ... like usually there A in and A out, not in and in....

the idea is to charge C+ using I(unlabled) as a ... choke is a bad word... the idea wold be to induce a DC current in I(unlableled) which is forced from positive to ground, thereby replenishing ground, and drawing postiive back to high... I stopped by the local store, but chokes there are like 200mA; and I think I want more current... since I can generate a trapped high between VD4, the choke (it's a pulse I'm giving it, so the impedance is high; if there is still a remaining current in the choke, the impedance will be slightly higher) and the power input pins... this is a tiny capacitance though, so it is only going to pull the choke for a very short time, but at a high current rate... but then the current should keep flowing back through VD3/VD4 and the LEDs to ground...  

charging C38 for the secondary's operation and or C37 ... which actually C37 should probably be included on the schematic without the secondary block, which would increase the capacitance of that BEMF voltage net...  37 and 40?  

----------------
maybe scratch most of that; C28 ....

-----
Okay so resetting c28; gotit... that would be an issue if that was deleted; ie the choke wouldn't transfer much current before balance was satisfied...
not sure the voltage multiplier is nessciary ( it's a current divider) oh... then to trigger the zener and allow a discharge of ground to lower c28...

man why's it gotta be so complex

----
so what's the voltage multiplier thing for?  And sin't it missing a diode between c37 and 39?  That rail becomes just a high negative potential... which would want c39 side toward the diodes want to be more positive... so it would have less effecitve capacitance... C38 diode side is just going to go positive once....
« Last Edit: 2014-06-06, 18:03:41 by d3x0r »
   
img  MenofFather
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1084 on: 2014-06-07, 17:22:37 »
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Were writen "вторичный блок (не обязательный)" in circuit of lantern 4, that mean, secondary block, not nessary. So circuit work and without it. I not see reason use that secondary block if work without it. It only stibilise.
C28, seems, is better not remove.
 :)
   
img  MenofFather
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1085 on: 2014-06-07, 19:54:43 »
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This schematic probarly can be little simplifed. D100 looks also can be removed, but to not make mistake, I it not remove.
 :)
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1086 on: 2014-06-07, 23:39:28 »
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Quote from: MenofFather on 2014-06-07, 19:54:43
This schematic probarly can be little simplifed. D100 looks also can be removed, but to not make mistake, I it not remove.
 :)
I think D100 could be removed... works better without the additional voltage drop (so the C28 and C+ can balance closer to 0)
 I agree with restoring C28; which is going to allow the choke to flow between two similar potentials... and the L2 is the return from C28 to ground...

REmoving the parallel resistor to the choke is probably OK also, otherwise you need another diode, which then makes the resistor not be used anyway... what I had in the simulator was that the current through the coil ended up just going through the resistor in a short loop.

This looks like it will be a very long runtime...

The simulator does make the difference across C28 grow with pulses
highest net on the right of the choke gets charged pretty high, power net C+ charges back up to original voltage

The sim... 

So essentially a pulse generator with a short duty cycle, a few coils and diodes ... it doesn't look like anything special about the (7414 thing).. and some capacitance on the base of the driver transistor for extra sharp pulses. 

might add a cap parallel to the LEDs .. won't get as much spike, but will get a longer continuous light...
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1087 on: 2014-06-08, 11:33:40 »
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Used my TL494 board to drive this... tried to put some capacitance in to cause the double-spiking, but it didn't work; I have a 5V regulator for the voltage output so I think it's got lots of current... tried tiny and large caps to no avail...

Reversing the secondary coil from the schematic allows slightly lower amp draw.

The C28 cap is too large at 1000uF ... but too small and the choke starves and develops its own back low EMF spikes. (diode to LED load to recover)

It is better to keep the diode between the choke and primary power. (which itself causes the back emf spike) even if the back emf isn't used, the diode reduces current draw.

It was lower amp reading on my power supply when I isolated the whole thing behind diodes.

Most optimal I could get was 30mA to get reasonable light on LEDs (indicator level at least)

I used my most recent pot core coil as the trasnformer, and another for the choke...

Was also better to add a diode between the LED load and ground, saved 10-20mA...

The TL494 board I have idles at 10mA when it's not generating any signal; and I'm using large darlington drive transistors...

did get a second or two of idle time before it turns off on 6.8mF cap...

the hex inverter is probably a lower idle; but I couldn't get down to 0.01A....

the simulator was able to charge the primary power cap; so I really think that in theory this should work as a long runner

I had it for a while doing the double-spike thing, but it turned out the secondary became disconnected from ground.

I had a couple flyback cores but they have since disappeared.... so waiting on a few replacement parts from mouser.

The wire should be large-ish; I used 20ga primary and 28ga secondary which works OK; but there's not enough room to use like 14ga wire primary in the pot core....
   
img  4Tesla
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1088 on: 2014-06-08, 22:37:46 »
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Have you all seen LS latest?  Amazing how little power to light the LED!  8) O0

http://laserhacker.com/?p=420
   
img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1089 on: 2014-06-28, 12:47:59 »
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img  lost_bro
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1090 on: 2014-07-01, 16:02:01 »
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img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1091 on: 2014-07-01, 17:49:04 »
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Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-07-01, 16:02:01
Hello All:

Did anyone save the listed videos?
I didn't get a chance to watch them.

Thanks
Take care, peace
lost_bro

I've saved all the videos .

I'll charge it here betwen one week I will delete them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl9KsDB_RYs&feature=youtu.be
   
img  lost_bro
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1092 on: 2014-07-02, 02:40:59 »
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Quote from: TutorialFE on 2014-07-01, 17:49:04
I've saved all the videos .

I'll charge it here betwen one week I will delete them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl9KsDB_RYs&feature=youtu.be

Thanks TutorialFE,
I will download today,
Take care, peace
lost_bro
   
img  T-1000
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1093 on: 2014-07-02, 17:20:41 »
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Hi guys,

After long exploration why there was current sensor in akula's 30W circuit I finally came to conclusion - it is automatic frequency control implementation to keep transformer in resonance. Obviously it is badly implemented as it should be current sensor right on the wire directly from transformer but still good try.
Here is good read (in Russian, use google translate) about this stuff:
http://www.icct.ru/node/85

Cheers!
   
img  MenofFather
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1094 on: 2014-07-05, 00:56:03 »
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Quote from: lost_bro on 2014-07-01, 16:02:01
Hello All:

Did anyone save the listed videos?
I didn't get a chance to watch them.

Thanks
Take care, peace
lost_bro
I only save and wach last video, but in it nothing important. Only showing Tesla coil. I think if he made private, let be private and not need it show for others, I in my computer also remove this video.
 :)
   
img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1095 on: 2014-07-08, 22:54:48 »
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@All

Does anyone know Mike_M?

He asked me to upload videos of Akula ...
   
img  TutorialFE
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1096 on: 2014-07-30, 18:20:44 »
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img  Matt Watts
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1097 on: 2014-07-30, 22:49:30 »
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Quote from: TutorialFE on 2014-07-30, 18:20:44
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_WCcUXvZK8

Am I looking at a modern SM TPU here?

The disassembly portion of this video sure looks familiar.

Very interesting the Asian crowd that appears to be embracing this technology.  Looks like we are going to get left in the dust if I don't get onboard soon.
   
img  d3x0r
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1098 on: 2014-07-31, 00:09:24 »
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Yeah, looks TPU-like.
Don't recall any schematics coming through for that..
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z37vpqjGKuE  Oh; guess that's the one with horizontal 3 coils



I'd like to know what can cause the collector to go low and stay low.... lower than ground.  Shouldn't the positive supply voltage at the other side bring it up quickly (even in a ringing like?)

First device in latest videos was 'lantern no4' not 30watt...

re 30watt: Pretty sure the right side diode between from the secondary and the load is backwards... otherwise that cap will never be higher than the supply cap, because it will conduct through the secondary... unless that's a way to cause the primary to reverse conduct back from power to ground, but in simulations there's not enough force to get the primary to back-conduct.
   
img  4Tesla
Re: Akula0083 30 watt self running generator. « Reply #1099 on: 2014-07-31, 00:44:02 »
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@d3x0r

Keep up the great research!  I'm going to play with Lasersaber's simplified version, but have to wait till September when I'll have the time.  Just too much I have to get done this summer.

4Tesla
   
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