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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 363919 times)
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It's turtles all the way down
We can agree that the last few posts, although way off topic, are at least far more interesting than much of what has been said on the "partnered coils" thread.

The administrators can move them to the appropriate thread, if they like.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Hi Guyz!
Just a teaser of an upcoming thread of my BiTT/JLN replication/investigation...
   
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Just a teaser of an upcoming thread of my BiTT/JLN replication/investigation...

I surely do like those bobbins you have.  Are they 3D printed or factory items?
   
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Factory U-93 bobbins but cut into eight corner pieces, glued in place to fit this location ;)
   
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I count seven ferrite bars "I"s, is that correct?

Step-up or down on the winding ratio?
« Last Edit: 2015-05-23, 15:55:09 by Matt Watts »
   
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3 "C/U": U-93 type cores, primary, 0,8 mm wire, 60 m length, didn't count the turns, :/
Secondaries identical, Litz type wire - 80 strands of 0,3 mm diameter wire, 33 turns, 515 cm in length each.
« Last Edit: 2015-03-05, 21:13:04 by kEhYo77 »
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Hi Guyz!
Just a teaser of an upcoming thread of my BiTT/JLN replication/investigation...


Very nice build kEhYo77, some times bigger can be  better !. Can you describe your plan of operation a bit?

Thanks in advance
ION


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Quote
Can you describe your plan of operation a bit?

Just pump some juice and let it loose ;)
I want the primary exciter part of that magnetic circuit to be HV LC tank resonator operating near the saturation point of the core,
each secondary will receive the flux wave divided in two in magnitude, and the load will induce BEMF of the same magnitude which
will collide at center section with identical wave from the other partnered secondary.
Will see how it goes.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Ok sounds like a plan.

You might also want to consider linear resistive loads on your secondaries in place of the lamps.

The lamps are extremely non-linear and will have a cold resistance in the fractional ohm range until they warm up.

This may make resonance hard to start and saturation difficult to achieve. Also it will be easier to measure power with a linear resistive loads.

Regards
ION


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Just a quick update guyz.

I have burnt some mosfets plus drivers ;) but the modular design of my output stage makes the replacement easy.
Nothing to report so far. I played a bit with JLN's config but could not get enough juice because primary inductance was too high.
I had to rewind the primary and decided to go straight to Akula's topology from this video

The magnetic coupling of the side resonating tank circuits to adjacent output coils is a bit tricky to adjust because of uneven air gap.
I think I'll use some epoxy mixed with black iron oxide dust to glue those firmly in place having equal coupling measured with the LRC meter.
All is left is the primary exciting coil in the center section for my push-pull driver on IGBTs. ;)
... and some time
   
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@Smudge

Sorry for the delay. I have been doing so many other experiments plus life itself just keeps tugging away at our time. Instead of making long explanations as per my recent post here.....

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2760.msg46523#msg46523

....... and your replies thereafter, I put up a youtube here......

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S4hIxATfuU8

The results are practically the same either with AC sinewave or DC pulse applied.

I also tried as per @T1000s suggestion with a 10 turn coil as the pick up medium. The results are basically the same but the 10 turn does produce some reflection back to the pulsed coil because you cannot convene on a set angularity so you do see some other rise points but in general the overall decrease is seen. What I like about using a tape head is that it was designed to pick up magnetic fluctuations on a passing tape without producing reflections that would then modify the information that was recorded on the tape. So the tape head is a good way to check your coils and even during certain replications, if experimenters convened on any specific widely available tape head, guys could have one on their bench to replicate or corroborate effect results.  

You have a coil. One side is neutral, the other is fluctuating AC. The neutral must stay neutral and so the fluctuating side is the only side that is changing. When you have a primary on AC (or DC), half the physical length of the primary that is wound on a core will impress 75% of the applied power while the other half will only impart 25%. That is they way our coils work regardless of AC or DC. This basic Half Coil Syndrome is a main limitation of our coils and is never taken into consideration when designing OU devices for experimentation. So we wind our coils like they wind coils for normal non-efficient transformers and we expect a different result.

If we cannot really master what is happening inside our coils (and cores) and just convene that we have an effect result because "that's the way it is" then we are basically playing the OU game blindly and for me, that is definitely not good enough to advance. Sounds simplistic, I know, but as soon as guys wind a coil, it's like we abdicate the effect result without ever really understanding the underlying causes of the effect

The main thing is Half Coil Syndrome (HCS) is real, it's pervasive in all our coils, AC or DC and I am even sure Tesla must have known that although AC does provide its own advantages, it has not overcome the HCS we see very directly in DC motors but with AC at least one side is fluctuating from a peak + to peak -, but the HCS is still present.

If put into an analogy of a magnet of strength 10 imparting to one end of a core, we would get.......
DC pulse is equal to a single full 10 magnet polarity passing a core.
AC pulse is equal to two polarities of 5 magnet successively passing a core.

What we need is Dual AC (one being 180 degrees off phase) on two primaries wound each turn side by side (like bifilar but not inter connected) on the same core length with one hot on one primary and other hot on the other end but on the second primary. That will create the most change a core will ever see. The two primaries together would act exactly like a real turning magnet would act without the drag.

wattsup

« Last Edit: 2015-04-04, 21:39:23 by wattsup »


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Quick update.
Slowly moving forward, Akula setup finished, ready for testing.
Tomorrow I will start pumping some juice to this puppy, fingers crossed.
   
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Is that a push-pull configuration you have there kEhYo77 ?
   
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Yes it is optically isolated Push-Pull
   
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@verpies
I would agree however I think we have to ask how far can the conventional line of thinking take us in a relative sense?. For instance someone may have a greater understanding than most people here however know nothing that matters relative to T.H.moray because he supposedly had a working device. It would seem to me that logically an unconventional technology would require unconventional thinking.

I just cannot see how conventional thinking can ever lead to anything extraordinary because fundamentally it is a contradiction in terms. My moment of clarity came to me when I saw a unidentified flying object leave a large hovering craft then accelerate like a bat out of hell straight out of our atmosphere at astronomical speeds and into outer space. No noise, no flames belching from the rear and no vapor trail. I thought... to hell with the silly misguided people down here I want to think like the person in that craft, I want to know what they know. The fact remains that if what were doing is not working then were doing something wrong and it must be something different we have not thought of.

AC
AC,
I think this video may address your query - well worth the watch, especially around 60 minutes or so and onward:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkVNv7PbeH8
Bob
   
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I meant to put my above post in another thread - my apologies.

Wanted to put this out there - Tinman's partnered coils toroid transformer getting some great buzz elsewhere.  Where's the excess charge coming from? Likely the ambient medium/aether, in my opinion.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn5Hx_zO2pA

Closed systems, by their very nature, cannot have >100% efficiency, but an open system can have a COP >1. I would wager this is an example of the latter.
Hey Tinman! O0 O0 O0
Bob
   

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FWIW I have posted on overunity.com my interpretation of Tinman's double toroid transformer.  It all comes down to the fact that his inner secondary coil has a high value self capacitance since it is surrounded by iron particles.  Capacitance creates negative reluctance that reduces the overall reluctance of that inner secondary core and can even make it negative so that the induced mmf drives current the wrong way in the outer core.

Smudge
   
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It's turtles all the way down
FWIW I have posted on overunity.com my interpretation of Tinman's double toroid transformer.  It all comes down to the fact that his inner secondary coil has a high value self capacitance since it is surrounded by iron particles.  Capacitance creates negative reluctance that reduces the overall reluctance of that inner secondary core and can even make it negative so that the induced mmf drives current the wrong way in the outer core.

Smudge

I agree. My take is that the resonant voltage rise due to self resonance (distributed capacitance and inductance) of the unloaded secondary creates an apparent voltage gain, even in a 1:1 transformer, but only if the coupling is less than 100%.

The important thing is that an unloaded voltage gain is not the same as a power gain.

An ordinary transformer with !:2 ratio will exhibit a voltage gain but not a power gain.

In other words, the apparent voltage gain can occur in a 1:1 transformer where there is resonant voltage rise in the secondary. The primary is loaded and kept constant by the function generator's output amplifier, so the reflected rise will not be seen in the primary. Due to less than 100% coupling factor,  the secondary is decoupled enough to be allowed rise in voltage.

When properly loaded, the apparent voltage gain of the secondary should  diminish.

However if this rise occurs over the entire pass band when loaded, not just at a few specific frequencies, we must look for a different effect.
« Last Edit: 2015-10-26, 11:14:35 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   

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Well further consideration tells me that Brad's device is not working as predicted, and I have posted my new thoughts on OU.com.  In view of Brad's frustration at the responses he is getting there, perhaps we should take over this work here at OUR.  My latest thoughts are that his inner secondary being buried inside the core, and therefore having significant distributed capacitance, creates a form of magnetic delay line.  The delay is not associated with domain wall movement but is induced by the current flowing in each turn of the inner secondary coil, that current coming from the turn-to turn capacitance.  The inner core now has a characteristic delay time around its mean circumference, and leads to a form of magnetic resonance that has hitherto not been exploited.  Maybe Brad is onto to something good here.  My own research into magnetic delay has offered interesting OU possibilities.

Smudge
   

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Buy me some coffee
Well further consideration tells me that Brad's device is not working as predicted, and I have posted my new thoughts on OU.com.  In view of Brad's frustration at the responses he is getting there, perhaps we should take over this work here at OUR.  My latest thoughts are that his inner secondary being buried inside the core, and therefore having significant distributed capacitance, creates a form of magnetic delay line.  The delay is not associated with domain wall movement but is induced by the current flowing in each turn of the inner secondary coil, that current coming from the turn-to turn capacitance.  The inner core now has a characteristic delay time around its mean circumference, and leads to a form of magnetic resonance that has hitherto not been exploited.  Maybe Brad is onto to something good here.  My own research into magnetic delay has offered interesting OU possibilities.

Smudge

Thank you Smudge.
I did read your last comment at OU.com,but i no longer wish to post there.

I was doing some frequency sweeps with my math trace on as well. At a small area of high frequencies,i noticed that my math trace all went below the zero volt line. Now,i cannot find or work out how to get the calculated result from my math trace,so was wondering if some here could teach me as to what im looking at with the math trace-->how can i manually calculate the math trace?

The screen shot below shows the blue trace across a 1 ohm CVR,and the yellow trace is across both the CVR and primary coil.
There is also a 100 ohm load across the secondary at this time during the scope shot.

P.S,yes,the voltage and current are close to 180* out of phase-->i do not have one channel inverted.

Cheers

Brad


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Never let your schooling get in the way of your education.
   

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Thank you Smudge.
I did read your last comment at OU.com,but i no longer wish to post there.

I was doing some frequency sweeps with my math trace on as well. At a small area of high frequencies,i noticed that my math trace all went below the zero volt line. Now,i cannot find or work out how to get the calculated result from my math trace,so was wondering if some here could teach me as to what im looking at with the math trace-->how can i manually calculate the math trace?

The screen shot below shows the blue trace across a 1 ohm CVR,and the yellow trace is across both the CVR and primary coil.
There is also a 100 ohm load across the secondary at this time during the scope shot.

P.S,yes,the voltage and current are close to 180* out of phase-->i do not have one channel inverted.

Cheers

Brad

Hi Brad,

I don't know what your math trace is set to.  I presume it is taking the product of channel1*channel2.  In this case it is displaying a power waveform. And since the voltage and current waveforms are 180 degrees out of phase it is showing negative power, that is power flowing backwards towards the source.  If that is so then the input impedance is negative.  If it were truly negative then one would expect some instability or tendency to self oscillation, so we need to tread carefully here before jumping to conclusions.

You seem very positive that the two channels are displaying correctly, and that you haven't got one scope probe connected the wrong way round, so we must accept that.  However you are operating at over 3MHz and at this frequency peculiar things can happen with scopes.  You could check by connecting a non-inductive resistor in place of the primary, keeping the scope probe connections the same, and see what you get.  If you still get that 180 degree phase shift then you have a measurement artifact.  If that 180 degrees is correct and you are genuinely pumping energy backwards into your sig gen then it should be possible to exploit that to get self oscillation by having some additional circuitry around that primary.  Like an LC circuit resonant at that 3MHz frequency.

Smudge  
   

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Brad,

I see that your math scale is 2.00 V2 per division.  So it is displaying the product of the two voltage waveforms.  Doing a quick eyeball of the instantaneous voltages of those two waveforms and multiplying them together then I do get the power waveform displayed as the math channel. Since you are using a 1 ohm CSR that converts volts to amps, that math waveform is a power waveform that has a mean value of just over 1 watt negative (the 2.00 V2 per division equates to 2.00 watts per division).  Multiplying the two rms values together gives 1.16 watts.  That is 1.16 watts apparently being pumped backwards into the internal resistance of your sig gen.  :)

Smudge
   

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I was going to reply to a post on Ou.com about Brad's capacitance measurements, but decided my allegiance is here on this forum.  So here is the post that never got there.

From the point of view of the close-wound inner secondary carrying AC current that can induce a phase delay along the core, it is the turn-to-turn capacitance that is important.  That capacitance between turns creates the delay-line effect.  And since the magnetic delay-line is closed upon itself there will be a resonant frequency where energy flowing around the core reaches the start point at the same phase (i.e. the delay around the core is exactly one full cycle).  That is a form of magnetic resonance that AFAIK has never before been considered.  In normal transformers it is negligible, but with the winding embedded in an artificially high dielectric then maybe this time it is not negligible.

Smudge
   

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Some very interesting views Smudge, I like it because it starts to make some sense out of the results of Brads experiments. Where does Brad go from here to prove these possibilities and take it further?

You stated about adding capacitance across the inner secondary so as to resonate at the input frequency, can you explain what may happen as I have a similar item called STEAP which I have been playing with off and on for quite some years, which just might have some aspect to what you have been explaining.

I love your posts, keep it up

Regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2015-10-27, 18:55:04 by Centraflow »


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Some very interesting views Smudge, I like it because it starts to make some sense out of the results of Brads experiments. Where does Brad go from here to prove these possibilities and take it further?

You stated about adding capacitance across the inner secondary so as to resonate at the input frequency, can you explain what may happen as I have a similar item called STEAP which I have been playing with off and on for quite some years, which just might have some aspect to what you have been explaining.

I love your posts, keep it up

Regards

Mike 8)

Well with Brad's input appearing to exhibit negative R I would be tempted to put a parallel LC tank circuit in the input line, so that it creates a high impedance path.  Of course it must resonate at the frequency where that negative R occurs.  You should then get some self oscillation.

Further thoughts.  Here are Brad's inductance and capacitance measurements.

Inductance
Primary and outer secondary-=29.8mH
Inner secondary= 93.2mH

Resistance
Primary and outer secondary=1.6 ohms
Inner secondary=.7 ohms

Capacitance between windings
Between primary and outer secondary= .68nF
Between primary and inner secondary= .31nF
Between outer and inner secondary= .31nF

Now if you imagine that the 0.31nF between the inner secondary and the primary, which is distributed along the seconday turns, makes an electrical delay line that is closed in on itself, then the delay time along that line (i.e, around one circumference) is sqrt(LC).  And with L being 93.2mH that gives a time delay of 5.38mS.  I think you must agree that this is significant and can't be ignored.  That means that the current through all the secondary turns is not continuous at any instant in time.  In our classical magnetics dealing with transformers we always assume that the same current is flowing around each turn.  We all know about the phase between voltage and current but we never imagine some phase between currents in adjacent turns.  But it is there and in this case it is significant.  Just some more food for thought.

Smudge
   
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