Tiger's Blocking Generator replication

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Author Topic: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication (Read 11148 times)

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #75 on: 2021-10-01, 22:48:13 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: Centraflow on 2021-10-01, 18:33:59 I know you want to keep to the Tiger circuit, but why has he put the choke where it is. This is kind'a elementary. Tiger has put a choke there because cap-to-cap energy transfers are inherently inefficient. For example, if you take a charged capacitor C₁ and close the switch S₁ in Fig.2 then the capacitor C₂^* will become charged to a higher voltage than in the circuit shown in Fig.1, which does not have the choke L₁. The same is true when a pulsed voltage source is substituted for C₁ and S₁. * ^{Initially discharged.} ------------------------ Tiger's Blocking Generator replication Cap-Cap Transfer.png (1.58 kB, 384x89 - viewed 510 times.)

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #76 on: 2021-10-01, 23:43:04 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-10-01, 15:36:32 This loading of C3 is done via inductive coupling from L2 to L3/L4 as the blocking diode in the plus lead prevents direct loading of C3. ... A quick way to load C3 to above 6V is to connect the battery directly across C3 and let it run from there. I agree Quote from: Itsu on 2021-10-01, 15:36:32 So to see in Tigers video his voltage rise / stabilizing to 6/7V with only a short connection of the battery on C2 (is there a C2 there?) raises some eyebrows here. Yes, I can't see exactly what component he is charging with that battery, either.

Kator01	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #77 on: 2021-10-02, 01:50:30 »
Newbie Posts: 49	Centralflow, no, he placed the choke in the path to Ground-connection of L3/L4 rectifier, thus avoiding higher frequencies shorting out to the ground...I assume @Itsu: A year ago I did some intensive testing with Kacher-circuits. What you can do is to vary in small steps the resistor between collector and base of the transistor. For example the more you will decrease the value from 30 Kohm -> 28 KOhm etc. I would expect an increase in PRF and change in Voltage of the ringdown and frequency. If you do this you may have to reduce the voltage input to C2 as the ON-time of the transistor increases in relation to the negative current from L1 to the base. The relation between these two competing currents is responsible for the PRF until it finallly is oscillating continually. Also the quality of C1 will play an important part in the Q of the parallell resonance L2/C1. I mostly use high-voltage ceramic capacitors from my "old-radio"-collection Mike ------------------------ Tiger's Blocking Generator replication mod.jpg (50.45 kB, 564x423 - viewed 475 times.)

Centraflow	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #78 on: 2021-10-02, 08:26:44 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2840	Quote from: verpies on 2021-10-01, 22:48:13 This is kind'a elementary. Tiger has put a choke there because cap-to-cap energy transfers are inherently inefficient. For example, if you take a charged capacitor C₁ and close the switch S₁ in Fig.2 then the capacitor C₂^* will become charged to a higher voltage than in the circuit shown in Fig.1, which does not have the choke L₁. The same is true when a pulsed voltage source is substituted for C₁ and S₁. * ^{Initially discharged.} Exactly, you are not teaching me anything I don't know. Look at what I have drawn and what Tiger has drawn, they are not the same, what I have drawn is tipical of a resonant parallel converter. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #79 on: 2021-10-02, 08:44:49 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: Centraflow on 2021-10-02, 08:26:44 Look at what I have drawn and what Tiger has drawn, they are not the same, what I have drawn is tipical of a resonant parallel converter. Indeed the positions of the chokes differ but according to Kirchhoff's laws the positions depicted in Fig.3 and Fig.4 are equivalent. ------------------------ Tiger's Blocking Generator replication Kirchhoffs equivalency.png (3.35 kB, 485x176 - viewed 450 times.)

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #80 on: 2021-10-02, 09:49:18 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Quote from: Kator01 on 2021-10-02, 01:50:30 Centralflow, no, he placed the choke in the path to Ground-connection of L3/L4 rectifier, thus avoiding higher frequencies shorting out to the ground...I assume @Itsu: A year ago I did some intensive testing with Kacher-circuits. What you can do is to vary in small steps the resistor between collector and base of the transistor. For example the more you will decrease the value from 30 Kohm -> 28 KOhm etc. I would expect an increase in PRF and change in Voltage of the ringdown and frequency. If you do this you may have to reduce the voltage input to C2 as the ON-time of the transistor increases in relation to the negative current from L1 to the base. The relation between these two competing currents is responsible for the PRF until it finallly is oscillating continually. Also the quality of C1 will play an important part in the Q of the parallell resonance L2/C1. I mostly use high-voltage ceramic capacitors from my "old-radio"-collection Mike Mike, i am using a 1M resistor between base and collector right now as that suppose to "work better" then a 30K resistor. But yes, i could replace it with a 1M or 50K trmmerpot and vary its value to see how it influence the circuit behaviour. I tried severall types and value's of capacitors for C1 to change the ringing frequency, but will try to find and use some high-voltage ceramic capacitors. Itsu

Centraflow	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #81 on: 2021-10-02, 10:43:36 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2840	Quote from: verpies on 2021-10-02, 08:44:49 Indeed the positions of the chokes differ but according to Kirchhoff's laws the positions depicted in Fig.3 and Fig.4 are equivalent. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmEayHrCJg&list=PL9_sR6Qqqcyn51rN4BaPhjckWWoMPvHJg&index=5 Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #82 on: 2021-10-02, 18:38:25 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: Centraflow on 2021-10-02, 10:43:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UNmEayHrCJg&list=PL9_sR6Qqqcyn51rN4BaPhjckWWoMPvHJg&index=5 ...and how does that rebute my observation that circuits in Fig.3 & Fig.4 are electrically equivalent ?

Centraflow	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #83 on: 2021-10-02, 20:17:09 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2840	I did not rebut what you said, only it is not kirchoffs law. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #84 on: 2021-10-02, 20:30:44 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	My observation was according to the Kirchhoffs's current law, because the algebraic sum of currents is commutative and thus the order of current-carrying components does not matter in a series circuit. This is why it does not matter whether the choke is placed before or after the winding+rectifier block.

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #85 on: 2021-10-02, 21:27:40 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	After changing the fixed 1M resistor for a 1M trimpot, i was able to vary the PRF with this pot. In the below PDF, somewhere below the diagram there is this statement: "The blocking frequency is about 800 hertz, the ringing frequency of the circuit is about 30 - 40kHz." Does this mean that the PRF should be around 800Hz (mine presently is 2Hz also measured from audio from the Tiger video)? If i tune the trimpot so the PRF reach 800Hz, the circuit starts to squeel, the voltage drops and the ringing almost disappears to only 1 peak (the trimpot reads 5K). So there probably is more load on the transistor like Kator mentioned earlier (ON-time of the transistor increases). Therefor the 800Hz as a PRF looks not realistic to me. Itsu ------------------------ tiger_power_feedback(1).pdf (97 kB - downloaded 106 times.)

verpies	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #86 on: 2021-10-02, 21:31:09 »
Group: Professor Hero Member Posts: 3378	Quote from: Itsu on 2021-10-02, 21:27:40 "The blocking frequency is about 800 hertz, the ringing frequency of the circuit is about 30 - 40kHz." Does this mean that the PRF should be around 800Hz... It seems that way based solely on the meaning of these words. However a little further the PDF states: Quote from: 001-lab.com I clarify the data: I measured the distance between pulses - 6 milliseconds,... Which calculates to 167Hz PRF. ...but don't these 001-lab.com forum posts refer to a different circuit ?

Kator01	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #87 on: 2021-10-03, 01:50:32 »
Newbie Posts: 49	Itsu, what you describe is exactly what I was anticipating. The squealing is very well known among HAM-guys and old radio-engineers...: I had a good friend way back in the 80s who teached me my first lessons in oscillators. When we were building some high-frequency circuits ( 40 Megacycles) then at times there was this squealing and he said "oh no its peeping" ( in german : er piept ) meaning the 40 Megacycles were interrupted at audio-PRF, so the blocking frequency you entered at 800 Hz is in the audio-band which for some reason is so strong it can be heard. I had one simple Kacher with a PNP-Transistor and a small 1200 V cold-cathode-transformer with just one Base-Resistor of 1000 Ohm ( no Z-Diodes whatsoever). The high-voltage inductance was connected to a 20 pf-capacitor ( ceramic, old radio) thus forming a Series-LC-tank with high Q It runs on very low Voltage in pure sinus-oscillation. The blocking was not present as the Collector-current was dominating. See Kacher-basisc-PNP.jpg Another one does not have a base-Resistor at all but in the power-input-line. See PNP-old-russian-Kacher.jpg. This one I did not test. I personally regard these basic circuits a good lesson to learn. The russians have a good history with peeping-signals...or better damped waves If smudge is around he certainly will remember as I do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnfNe31fmY It had a tube-oscillator with just 1 Watt !! and was received around the globe at these hights !! ??...unbelievable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-NKA-36 The transmitter scheme : https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/users/15793/Sputnik1_xmtr.jpg Sorry guys I dont like to side-track you, but I think its important because we have to deal here with damped waves and they are not liked much by professionals. I have to look up my archive...had recently found a picture of the signal....cant find it right now. Mike ------------------------ Tiger's Blocking Generator replication Kacher-basic-PNP.jpg (9.07 kB, 387x280 - viewed 398 times.) Tiger's Blocking Generator replication Old-Russian-Kacher ( Germanium-PNP).jpg (70.03 kB, 1096x829 - viewed 389 times.)

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #88 on: 2021-10-03, 09:32:23 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Quote from: verpies on 2021-10-02, 21:31:09 It seems that way based solely on the meaning of these words. However a little further the PDF states:Which calculates to 167Hz PRF. ...but don't these 001-lab.com forum posts refer to a different circuit ? Yes, the PDF jumps to another webpage i understand which is not available anymore. But this statement: "The blocking frequency is about 800 hertz, the ringing frequency of the circuit is about 30 - 40kHz." is also on the diagram in that PDF and is what i am following. Itsu

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #89 on: 2021-10-03, 09:40:32 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Quote from: Kator01 on 2021-10-03, 01:50:32 Itsu, what you describe is exactly what I was anticipating. The squealing is very well known among HAM-guys and old radio-engineers...: I had a good friend way back in the 80s who teached me my first lessons in oscillators. When we were building some high-frequency circuits ( 40 Megacycles) then at times there was this squealing and he said "oh no its peeping" ( in german : er piept ) meaning the 40 Megacycles were interrupted at audio-PRF, so the blocking frequency you entered at 800 Hz is in the audio-band which for some reason is so strong it can be heard. I had one simple Kacher with a PNP-Transistor and a small 1200 V cold-cathode-transformer with just one Base-Resistor of 1000 Ohm ( no Z-Diodes whatsoever). The high-voltage inductance was connected to a 20 pf-capacitor ( ceramic, old radio) thus forming a Series-LC-tank with high Q It runs on very low Voltage in pure sinus-oscillation. The blocking was not present as the Collector-current was dominating. See Kacher-basisc-PNP.jpg Another one does not have a base-Resistor at all but in the power-input-line. See PNP-old-russian-Kacher.jpg. This one I did not test. I personally regard these basic circuits a good lesson to learn. The russians have a good history with peeping-signals...or better damped waves If smudge is around he certainly will remember as I do this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lfnfNe31fmY It had a tube-oscillator with just 1 Watt !! and was received around the globe at these hights !! ??...unbelievable. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sputnik_1#cite_note-NKA-36 The transmitter scheme : https://www.radiomuseum.org/forumdata/users/15793/Sputnik1_xmtr.jpg Sorry guys I dont like to side-track you, but I think its important because we have to deal here with damped waves and they are not liked much by professionals. I have to look up my archive...had recently found a picture of the signal....cant find it right now. Mike Kator, yes, the squealing is interesting as i wonder what it is that produces it. But the 800Hz PRF is way to high in this configuration as it drains the stored energy in the caps very quickly. Perhaps its meant to be 800mHz. Thanks for the links and info, might come in handy. Itsu

Kator01	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #90 on: 2021-10-04, 01:21:58 »
Newbie Posts: 49	Itsu, the 001- lab site is still in the archive..but only this page #58 https://web.archive.org/web/20110425160412/www.001-lab.com/001lab/index.php?topic=1056.2850 ...however no schematics @vasik: can you help find out more ? Also I found the original russian pic of the sputnik1 signal here: http://sputnik.rusarchives.ru/dokumenty/forma-radiosignalov-isz-1 It consisted of two alternating damped frequencies about 20 Megacycles and 40 Megacycles. However this is just a theoretical signal-form. In reality - as one wave stops it fades in the manner we see in tigers presentation...so this exponential fading interferes with the start-sequence of following higher or lower puls...and so on. Why did they do this ? What did they know then in 1957 ? Just ONE watt from this obit reaching almost all parts of the earth. Mike

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #91 on: 2021-10-04, 10:16:42 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Kator, thanks for the link, it does contain some information f.i. about the right most capacitors (C3). Google Chrome does a good job translating. Itsu

Kator01	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #92 on: 2021-10-05, 00:04:23 »
Newbie Posts: 49	Itsu, the problem is that when I try to go to previous pages < 58 or forward > 58 the archive returns a notice that this page has not been archived. That was the reason I called out to Vasik if he can help with this because I have the impression that sometimes the return of information might be restricted to the russian web Seems we are stuck here for now. One remark however I found on page 58 was that this recovering action of the damped wave at the beginning might have its cause in a base to emitter Zehner-performance. If this is the case than the chance to find a matching transistor is almost impossible. For example with negistor-circuits using different transistors I found that the same type of a transistor - however from a different manufacturer or a different batch makes on a negistor the other not. Also I wonder what will happen if you use rf-Litz-wires ( 25 or more stands) for L1 / L2 because these thick speaker-wires have low real resistance however certainly a good portion of capacitance-coupling which might be detrimental to the performance, also the skin-effect might be negative. Anyway, Itsu, you have done a very good job Mike

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #93 on: 2021-10-05, 09:19:07 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Thanks Mike, i did notice the problems with other pages of the archived website, besides page 58 there are few others that worked (are archived) like 1 and 62 or so, but no additional info was found there. Anyway, i never noticed the "increase effect" like seen in Tiger his video, so probably there are some parameters which are not matched yet. I do have some litz wire i could use, not sure if it worth the effort. Thanks for your insights so far. Itsu

Vasik041	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #94 on: 2021-10-05, 17:19:49 »
Group: Guest	Quote from: Kator01 on 2021-10-04, 01:21:58 Itsu, the 001- lab site is still in the archive..but only this page #58 https://web.archive.org/web/20110425160412/www.001-lab.com/001lab/index.php?topic=1056.2850 ...however no schematics @vasik: can you help find out more ? Also I found the original russian pic of the sputnik1 signal here: http://sputnik.rusarchives.ru/dokumenty/forma-radiosignalov-isz-1 It consisted of two alternating damped frequencies about 20 Megacycles and 40 Megacycles. However this is just a theoretical signal-form. In reality - as one wave stops it fades in the manner we see in tigers presentation...so this exponential fading interferes with the start-sequence of following higher or lower puls...and so on. Why did they do this ? What did they know then in 1957 ? Just ONE watt from this obit reaching almost all parts of the earth. Mike I guess this is offtopic. There is quite detailed explanation what and why it was done https://translate.google.com/?sl=ru&tl=en&text=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.radioscanner.ru%2Finfo%2Farticle593%2F&op=translate Even design documentation http://russianspacesystems.ru/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Otchet-o-razrabotke-bortovoy-radiostancii-pervogo-sputnika.pdf Regards, Vasik

Centraflow	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #95 on: 2021-10-05, 18:46:53 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2840	I used to be very active on all satellites at one time, including Russian http://www.arrl.org/news/russian-dosaaf-85-rs-44-amateur-radio-satellite-transponder-now-active Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

Kator01	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #96 on: 2021-10-07, 00:17:18 »
Newbie Posts: 49	Itsu, can you please give data on your last, or best performing Tiger-device based on the scheme here in the attachment. Just windings, capacitor and semiconductors and runtime ( as a final spec for other replicators ) ? I certainly will give it a try...will take some time however. Mike ------------------------ Tiger's Blocking Generator replication mod.jpg (50.45 kB, 564x423 - viewed 201 times.)

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #97 on: 2021-10-07, 09:39:33 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Ok, will do some test runs. But the run times greatly vary with the time you connect the 12V across C2 (it will load C3 through induction which determines the running time) Longest times are when loading C3 directly with the 12V. Itsu

NickZ	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #98 on: 2021-10-07, 15:18:07 »
Group: Guest	Yet, there will be a maximum run time, once the caps are all full. I still wonder how Nelson is able to get his rig self running for quite a while, even with a load on, with just a single one second tap on the input. It doesn't make sense to me, nor add up as we know it. He said that it's just recycling the juice, but how can it be doing that with a load on. NickZ

Itsu	Re: Tiger's Blocking Generator replication « Reply #99 on: 2021-10-07, 21:38:27 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 4102	Kator, L1 and L2 are 39 turns 944uH @ 10KHz each (speaker wire, 1 circumference of the yoke) L3 and L4 are 13 turns each bifilar connected (134uH each, total 537uH). C1 is 13nF C2 is 5000uF @ 12.6V C3 is 15000uF @ 12.6V C in series with L1 is 450nF Choke is 9mH Transistor is KT805AM Single diode is 1N5819 (Schottky) L3/L4 diodes is dual schottky MBR4045PT Base / Collector resistor is 1M trimpot set at max. PRF is 2.7s (after some time). Ringdown frequency is 43KHz Run time 5H 11Minutes (with C3 loaded to 12.3V) I tried the yoke without an air gap, with a 0.1mm air gap from mylar tape and this last run with 0.09mm printer paper. I never saw that effect of increased ringing signal stabilizing around 6V as in Tiger his video. Regards itsu

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