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Author Topic: Jegs "HV Push Pull by Jeg" replication.  (Read 7651 times)
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Yes, it would be interesting to see the same test done with a much higher voltage. If it has the same behaviour then some questions have to be asked about the Microchip spec sheet. I’ll reach out to them to see if they have any explanation.

I guess I need to take another look at the Cree/Wolfspeed MOSFETs. They are super expensive though…
   
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I filed a support case with Microchip to report the problem. Let’s see what they say.

   

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Thanks Lee,

yes, let's see what they have to say.

Itsu
   

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I tried to measure the turn-off time at a higher voltage (1700V), but therefor i had to use a higher resistance resistor of 1Mohm to stay within the resistor wattage limits.
But it seems that due to this higher resistance, the RC time (R load resistor, C output capacitance of the MOSFET) becomes so long that it won't switch anymore.

So basically i can not measure the turn-off time at 1700V using a 470 Ohm resistor.


I then measured the capacitance of the both used MOSFETs, and it shows a much higher capacitance of the MSC035SMA170B4 between its ports then the C2M0045170D:
 
Tested with my LCR meter at 10kHz:

MSC035SMA170B4 (Lee MOSFET)   
GS          DS         GD
4.9nF      4nF        3.4nF

C2M0045170D (CREE)
GS           DS         GD
331pF      291pF      324pF

This could be the reason that the MSC035SMA170B4 behaves worse than the C2M0045170D.

But this is NOT how the data sheets show they measure the input/output capacitance!!

Itsu
   
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Hi Itsu,

The strange thing is that your capacitance tests show pretty close values for the MSC035SMA170B4 as per the data sheet includes. 

And the capacitance tests on the C2M0045170D type show very low pF values by the same C meter.  Of course , the capacitances depend very much on the voltage levels between the MOSFET pins and the data sheets show the curves in the function of the drain-source DC voltage, they used 25 mV AC at 1 MHz frequency.  (I do not think your 10 kHz test frequency is a problem here. )
Basically these Silicon Carbid MOSFETs have very similar behaviour capacitance wise in the function of the drain source voltage to that of "normal" power MOSFETs. i.e. as the drain source voltage increases, all the capacitances decrease with respect to their zero bias capacitance values.   
   
Probably the capacitance measurement can be done by applying a static DC bias across the drain source pins via the 470 k or even 1 MegaOhm drain resistor and use the C meter between the drain and source via a coupling capacitor of say 1 nF in series with the meter.   The gate and source pins should be connected together (Vgs=0).

 I attach below the relevant Figures from both data sheets. 

Perhaps the answer from the manufacturer Lee turned to may reveal some explanation on the long turn off time issue.

Gyula 

Edit: I wrote applying static DC bias across the drain source pins but of course a variable DC is to be used.  Normally at zero voltages all the capacitances are at their highest values (some nF) and these decrease as the voltage levels increase, the higher the voltage levels (up to the max rated ones) the lower the capacitances go down.  Varicap diodes behave like this too.
« Last Edit: 2023-05-01, 13:56:54 by gyula »
   
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Itsu,

Microsemi recommends a gate drive that switches between +20 and -5 volts.  The negative V on the gate assists turn off.

As an experiment, and without needing to modify your driver, you could insert a floating 5 volt supply between the source lead and ground so that the gate goes negative relative to source when turned off.  Bypass the 5 volt supply with a cap very close to the device.

Also, keep lead lengths as short as possible...

PW   
   

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Gyula,

thanks, i will give that a try later today.

Itsu
   

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Itsu,

Microsemi recommends a gate drive that switches between +20 and -5 volts.  The negative V on the gate assists turn off.

As an experiment, and without needing to modify your driver, you could insert a floating 5 volt supply between the source lead and ground so that the gate goes negative relative to source when turned off.  Bypass the 5 volt supply with a cap very close to the device.

Also, keep lead lengths as short as possible...

PW

PW,

in my original test of this Microsemi MSC035SMA170B4 MOSFET which can be found in post #91 of this thread here:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4459.msg104637#msg104637
i used the PCB and circuit designed by Lee which contains a R12p22005d ( https://recom-power.com/pdf/Econoline/RxxP2xxyy.pdf ) which does switches the gate between +20V and -5V.

But still it had this long turn-off time compared to the CREE C2M0045170D MOSFET as also can be seen in that post.

Regards Itsu
   

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Hi Itsu,

The strange thing is that your capacitance tests show pretty close values for the MSC035SMA170B4 as per the data sheet includes. 

And the capacitance tests on the C2M0045170D type show very low pF values by the same C meter.  Of course , the capacitances depend very much on the voltage levels between the MOSFET pins and the data sheets show the curves in the function of the drain-source DC voltage, they used 25 mV AC at 1 MHz frequency.  (I do not think your 10 kHz test frequency is a problem here. )
Basically these Silicon Carbid MOSFETs have very similar behaviour capacitance wise in the function of the drain source voltage to that of "normal" power MOSFETs. i.e. as the drain source voltage increases, all the capacitances decrease with respect to their zero bias capacitance values.   
   
Probably the capacitance measurement can be done by applying a static DC bias across the drain source pins via the 470 k or even 1 MegaOhm drain resistor and use the C meter between the drain and source via a coupling capacitor of say 1 nF in series with the meter.   The gate and source pins should be connected together (Vgs=0).

 I attach below the relevant Figures from both data sheets. 

Perhaps the answer from the manufacturer Lee turned to may reveal some explanation on the long turn off time issue.

Gyula 

Edit: I wrote applying static DC bias across the drain source pins but of course a variable DC is to be used.  Normally at zero voltages all the capacitances are at their highest values (some nF) and these decrease as the voltage levels increase, the higher the voltage levels (up to the max rated ones) the lower the capacitances go down.  Varicap diodes behave like this too.


Gyula,

i followed your suggestion and used a 470K resistor in the drain lead to feed in 0 to 12V.
The Gate was shorted to the Source (Vgs=0) and the LCR meter was connected via a series capacitor of 47nF to the drain and source.

The results was:

MSC035SMA170B4   4.5nF at 0V decreasing to 1.6nF at 12V
C2M0045170D        390pF at 0V decreasing to  70pF at 12V

So they both follow the graphs you showed meaning a decreasing capacitance with increasing voltage across DS.

The MSC035SMA170B4 follows its graph reasonably accurate, but the C2M0045170D shows a much lower Coss then in the graph for some reason.

Itsu
   
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Hi Itsu,

Thanks for doing the drain-source capacitance check for the two MOSFET types (both are Silicon Carbide technology).  Indeed it is strange that the C2M0045170D type has such a low capacitance (around 390 pF instead of the around 1200 pF at 10V as it can be estimated from its data sheet https://assets.wolfspeed.com/uploads/2020/12/C2M0045170D.pdf .

Just out of curiosity, I looked up Wolfspeed's new 650V SiC MOSFET family (3rd generation SiC technology) and this type for instance C3M0045065L 650V, 49A 45mOhm  ( https://assets.wolfspeed.com/uploads/2022/10/C3M0045065L.pdf ) has around 600 pF Coss output capacitance at 10V from its data sheet, Figure 17, Page 6.

I do think that the data sheets include correct output capacitances and I also think your output capacitance measurements gave correct, very close to reality results on those particular devices. Yet there is an order of magnitude difference between the two types contrary to their data sheets. 

Hopefully, the manufacturer (Lee turned to) can give explanation on the longer turn off time you and also Lee experienced in practice.

Gyula
   
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Microchip replied to me and asked me to provide the gate waveform. I provided them the signal gen trace as well as the load resistor trace, but I didn't include the gate trace. I'll reply to them shortly and see what they say.
   

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Thanks lee,

in my post # 95  (https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4459.msg104658#msg104658) i show a screenshot of the Drain - Source signal (yellow) and the Gate - Source signal (Blue).
Its not in your circuit but my old board, so without the +20V / -5V gate drive signal.

Itsu
   
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I provided the following scope shots to Microchip.

Blue trace: load resistor
Purple trace: MOSFET gate
Yellow trace: signal gen

MOSFET gate (Vgs) voltage showing +20/-5V



No load rise & fall showing <10ns rise & fall



500-ohm dummy load (40V) rise & fall showing ~10ns rise and ~1.25us fall

   
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Dear Lee,

Thanks for showing the scopeshots.  Would you mind providing a simple schematic with the measuring points indicated that you used in these tests?
 
Thanks,
Gyula
   

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I, too, was wondering how the used circuit looks like and where the probe points (tip and ground) are as it seems strange you can measure the "signal gen" signal together with the gate signal and the signal
across the load resistor.

They all have different grounding points IMO.

Here i used Lee his circuit including the MSC035SMA170B4 MOSFET, so with the +20V / -5V gate signal and measure only the DS (CH1 yellow) and GS (CH2 blue) signals as they have a common ground:
These are the signals that are most useful IMO.



The circuit and measurement points i used are:



Kees
   
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I provided the following scope shots to Microchip.

Blue trace: load resistor
Purple trace: MOSFET gate
Yellow trace: signal gen


No load rise & fall showing <10ns rise & fall






Hi Lee,

Hope you are doing fine.  Have you received any new feedback from Microchip?

The reason I asked you for a simple schematic with the probe points was that I do not understand the no load rise and fall time : with no load where the probe was placed?  On load I mean the 500 Ohm of course.
The other scopeshots are ok for me.

Thanks,
Gyula

   
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Hi folks. Sorry for the delay in replying. I've been busy trying to make some bifilar pancake coils, which turned out to be a bit more complicated than I'd anticipated. They're quite tricky to wind, so I ended up building a jig to wind them on. This went through a few revisions as I tweaked it to my needs, but in the end it turned out alright.

I did get a follow up response from Microchip today.

This is what they said:

Quote
I'm assuming this is a source follower configuration (Drain to 40V, source to 500ohm resistor).  If that is true then the waveform looks correct.  The blue trace (input signal to the isolated driver) goes low, then 50ns later, the gate drive output (VGS) quickly goes low and the FET turns off.  Once the FET is off, the source node (across the resistor) is discharged with a time constant of Coss x 500ohms. The effective capacitance between 0V and 40V is around 2nf and RC = 1us.

I'm not sure why the Wolfspeed part doesn't also do this since it's Coss is approximately the same as the Microchip FET.

I'll put together a schematic showing the probe points. I'm using isolated probes to avoid grounding issues.
   
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I just saw that Infineon have released a new line of SiC 2000V MOSFETs. Here's the link to view the range at Mouser.

The cheapest one has a rise time of 3ns and a fall time of 5ns with a RDS(on) of 131 mOhms.

I've ordered a selection of them to test them out.
   
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The Infineon MOSFETs have arrived, and I was surprised to find out that they are a different form factor to the other 4 pin TO247 MOSFETs. The distance between pin 1 & 2 is 7.62mm (2.54*3), whereas it is 5.08mm (2.54*2) for the Microchip & Wolfspeed 4 pin MOSFETs. The other pins are spaced 2.54mm apart.

I guess it's because the Infineon MOSFETs are rated to 2000V, so there needs to be a greater distance between drain and source to prevent arc over.

I wish they would use a more distinct naming scheme for the package types. It's not super obvious looking at the package name - TO-247-4-PLUS (Infineon) vs TO-247-4L (Microchip). Call it something different to TO-247 if there is a significant difference! Sigh..  :(

I guess I'll have to bend pin 1 and hope for the best. I'll try it out with one of them to see how it works. I'll probably have to revise the PCB layout and get some more manufactured to do it properly. I might as well try to shrink the size of the PCB down as well and maybe replace some through hole components with SMD. That's a project for another day, I don't want that to distract me from experimenting.

Here's an interesting PDF from Infineon explaining all about 2kV SiC technology. Page 13 is of particular interest when it explains 'Higher voltage in combination with higher frequency requires much higher clearance'.
   

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Thanks, Lee, for your findings, interesting, and good to know.

Itsu
   
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Hi Itsu,

Is the HV pushpull working well?
I assume 2 good matching Mosfets was the issue?

Greetings,
Ape
   

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Hi Ape,

the test was if 2 MOSFETs in series could be set up to be switching together and dividing the Voltage across them equally, so not a push pull setup.

This worked at low voltage levels / MOSFETs using some active clamping as shown here:  https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=4459.msg104570#msg104570

But trying to do this with HV and ditto MOSFETs dit not work out that way.

So indeed, i guess the problem still is the difference in MOSFET parameters, but looking for a matched pair is not realistic as we don't know which parameter(s) are involved, and they are expensive.

Itsu
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
If you look through the IVO thread on youtube he shows how to do a 3000 volt circuit using MosFets

andf more when i can find it in a large chain.

Sil


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Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.
   

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Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks
If you look through the IVO thread on youtube he shows how to do a 3000 volt circuit using MosFets

andf more when i can find it in a large chain.

Sil
this is one method i'm sure there are others similar.
once you start to produce sparks your defeating energy.

Sil


---------------------------
Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.
   
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I had to make some changes to my MOSFET driver PCB to support the TO-247-4-Plus footprint, so I decided to move away from EasyEDA and redesign it using Kicad 7. I felt more secure not having to rely on a cloud service to store my designs.

I've attached the Gerber files, as well as the Kicad 7 design files, should you wish to use it or modify it to suit your purposes.

I've just sent it off to JLCPCB for manufacturing. I'll keep you posted on how it goes when I receive it.

Significant changes over the last version:
  • Support for TO-247-4-Plus as well as TO-247-4 footprints
  • Much larger exposed copper section for the MOSFET & diode connections to support larger currents and provide some heatsinking for the connected pins
  • Optional series TO-247-2 diodes to protect MOSFET from inductive kickback
  • Optional series TO-247-2 diodes to protect MOSFET from reverse polarity
  • 6 layer design which uses two separate ground planes connected using vias, and dedicated layers for power & signals
  • Addition of a 12V regulator for 12V section
  • Addition of bulk capacitors for input, 5V & 12V power planes
  • Added optional gate driver inverted input BNC. Can be tied to ground using onboard jumper.
  • Added NTC (negative temperature coefficient) fuse to limit inrush current
  • Changed gate resistors from through hole to SMD

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