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2024-05-03, 14:10:13
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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential  (Read 95817 times)

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Dear Graham,

Do I take it you have tried to get some movement in a Franklin motor layout using the VDG and it won't budge?  If you have some whiskers as brushes on the fixed spheres that would ensure the charge gets transferred and it may need a nudge to get it going so that all the spheres get some charge to create maximum electrostatic motor force.  Don't nudge it with your fingers!.   I did say early on that the spheres may be too heavy and there was talk of coated balloons or even empty coke cans.  If you want to talk in more depth on the phone then message me and I'll send you my phone details.

Regards

Cyril
   

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Dear Graham,

Even if your disc-of-spheres is too heavy to do meaningful overunity torque measurements it can still be used for an experiment that could have significant scientific importance.  Currently there is a view that you cannot induce DC into a coil.  That stems from induction coming from rate-of-change of flux through the coil, and to get DC the flux would have to be changing in the same direction permanently, i.e rising to infinity.  Expressed as V=-dPhi/dt this is considered to be the only way you can induce voltage into a coil.  I think this is too narrow a view and there could be another expression although I am not clever enough to put is as a formula.  If you can induce DC into a loop, that will also apply if the loop has atomic dimensions and that means we can put a load onto the atomic circulations that exist in permanent magnets, i,e, the aligned electron spins and orbits.  This is what I suggest as the means for applying a load to the Earth's core that supplies the Earth's magnetic field.

In the suggested experiment you drive the Franklin disc-of-spheres and supply charge as in the Franklin electrostatic motor, but you don't look for any torque change.  Instead you look for DC induction into a coil.  This is shown in the attached image.  There is no doubt that the sudden transfer of charge into or out of the spheres at the brush contacts will radiate pulses and these will be picked up by the coil.  When you look at the magnetic vector potential at the coil, each moving charged sphere creates a rotating vector but the vector only rotates through 180 degrees, then it suddenly reverses its polarity.  According to classical theory the rotating A vector being at constant amplitude does not result in an electric field, it is only the switch in polarity that creates an electric effect.  Hence the coil receives a series of unidirectional E field impulses, we have a means for transmitting a DC component through space (that in itself could be an important finding).  The 1/r radiation law then assures that a coil will get more E field on its nearest edge than its furthest edge and you get a voltage induction that has a DC component.

If you are interested in doing this experiment I have a piece of kit that Graham Gunderson gave me.  It is a DC amplifier that enables your 'scope to get down to micro-volts DC.  It is so sensitive that you only have to touch a croc-clip connection and the heat transfer from your fingers causes a change.  I can send this to you if you need it.

Thanks for you phone number, I'll be in touch later today or this evening.

Regards

Cyril
   

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Dear Cyril.

Great to hear from you this afternoon.  O0

My " El cheapo " DMM suggests a current of 100+ microamperes but on reversing connections a very erratic reading is seen.

The current setup is really " makeshift " so I'll endeavour to improve things as time permits.

Kind regards, Graham.


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My " El cheapo " DMM suggests a current of 100+ microamperes but on reversing connections a very erratic reading is seen.
DMMs are confused by pulsed DC. 
Precede it with a fast diode in series followed by a capacitor in parallel.
   

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Dear Graham,

After talking to you about the Innova device I looked at overunity.com to see their ideas on jam jar lids etc.  It is clear to me that the hemispheres are attached to the rotating disc, they are not on a separate fixed disc.  But yes there are three different coloured metals there.  My take on this is that to get a significant amount of charge from a not too high voltage they are using half cell technology.  A rechargeable battery uses two half cells to get a potential difference between the two electrodes.  Each electrode reacts with the electolyte to put ions into the electrolyte and I think the ions could be the charge store.  Normally a half cell (one electrode in an electrolyte) reacts chemically to have positive ions in the electrolyte and the reaction ceases when a certain quantity of the electrode material has been oxidised leaving the electrode negatively charged with excess electrons and positive ions in the electrolyte.  IMO a fast pulse can remove the excess electrons from the electrode leaving positively charged ions in the electrolyte.  Without the other electrode present to make a complete cell these ions can't travel anywhere.  So effectively you have much more stored charge than you would get from having just a metal sphere with its small self capacitance.  It's a bit like a one-electrode electrolytic self- capacitance.  If you look at the other Brazilian machine at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlLOHKRP2GU you will see the hemispheres have a blue tinge, again indicating the use of an unusual metal.  In that machine you see the guy fiddle with what could be the brush system that transfers the charge onto the electrodes as they pass top dead center.  The Innova machine doesn't appear to have brushes, so I think it gets its charge from magnetic induction.  The large coils at the back of the machine have counter windings so that flux gets ejected out through what looks like holes surrounded by white taped toroids.  The hemispheres on the disc are not only part of a half cell but also contain coils whose output voltage charges the half cells.  The coils get there induction from movement through the magnetic field from that rear set of coils that carry DC.  So IMO the Innova device is a sort of Franklin motor getting torque electrostatically but more importantly also getting torque from the Earth's A field.

Regards

Smudge

   

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DMMs are confused by pulsed DC. 
Precede it with a fast diode in series followed by a capacitor in parallel.

Dear Verpies.

I had the V De G totally shorted with the DMM on microamperes, there was a steady Current reading in one polarity, which increased with the speed control. With polarities reversed the display flickered all sorts of readings.

Would that be considered pulsed if a direct and constant connection was being made?

Cheers Graham.


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Dear Cyril.

I have attached the photograph we were discussing, I have indicated ( in Yellow ) the disc I was talking about, looks like Polycarbonate and smaller diameter to me.

What do you or other members see ?

Several heads are better than one !!    ;)

Kind regards, Graham.


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Dear Graham,

That's not a thin transparent disc.  What you see is tin plated wire connecting all the bolts together, it goes under the nuts.  The photo was probably taken to show that the wire has come apart, you can see a loose end hanging down from the top electrode of the photo, see my image below.

Cyril
   

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I have created a Powerpoint presentation on the vector potential motor and here is it in pdf form.  Enjoy

Smudge
   
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1. You cannot properly measure the output of a VDG or other ES machine by "shorting" it through a meter, since the output depends on the ability of the machine to charge to a high voltage, and shorting through a meter prevents this buildup of voltage (charge separation). The proper way is to use a moving-coil microammeter or milliammeter, connected in series with the load you are powering with the machine, said load presenting a very high impedance. I would not use a DMM anywhere near such a machine regardless of how it is connected, as I would be very worried about buildup of charge inside the meter, resulting in damage to the microprocessor and/or other delicate components. No such worries with a moving coil meter.

2. I think I see the thin transparent disk that Grum is talking about, and it is _not_ the ring of wire (with a loose end) spanning the can-lid "segments". However....

3. The Innova Tehno device is 100 percent hoax. There is no point in trying to analyze what is essentially a bit of modern art sculpture, trying to get something working. By now you should all know enough about static machines to be able to tell that all the sharp points and edges of that device would never allow buildup of sufficient charge differential to do anything useful, much less give you the "holy grail" of self-running and substantial power output. And you certainly should be able to tell the difference between the behaviour of hoaxers, and real inventors with a unique device. Open minds are good, but not so open that your brains run out your earholes, making a useless mess of timewasting and futile "experimentation".

4. There should certainly be enough power from Grum's VDG machine at high voltage to get his disk of spheres rotating, _if_ the central bearing friction is sufficiently low. You need to pay careful attention to the "stator" structures that are providing the attraction/repulsion to the spheres on the rotor, as well as providing a frictionless means of transferring charge from the stator disks or spheres to the ones on the rotor. I recommend using carbon fiber rovings, available at your local aircraft hobby shop, as brushes for this purpose. Although my Enhanced Franklin Motor is spark-commutated and optimized for rotating only in one direction, you may like to review my video of this motor. Substitute brushes of carbon fiber for the sparking electrodes, eliminate the biasing stator elements, and make sure all parts that carry charge are smoooooooth and that the only conductive paths are provided by the CF brushes themselves.

5. A much simpler corona motor may also be adequate to test Smudge's conjectures about vector potential directionality affecting rotation. 
   

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Would that be considered pulsed if a direct and constant connection was being made?
No that would be steady.
However the DC induced in the multi-turn coil that Cyril has proposed, would be pulsed.
   

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2. I think I see the thin transparent disk that Grum is talking about, and it is _not_ the ring of wire (with a loose end) spanning the can-lid "segments".

I see it too now.  And you can see something on that disc towards the back, looks like a protruding bolt thread with nuts wound with two turns of some form of thick tape.

Quote
The Innova Tehno device is 100 percent hoax. There is no point in trying to analyze what is essentially a bit of modern art sculpture, trying to get something working. By now you should all know enough about static machines to be able to tell that all the sharp points and edges of that device would never allow buildup of sufficient charge differential to do anything useful, much less give you the "holy grail" of self-running and substantial power output. And you certainly should be able to tell the difference between the behaviour of hoaxers, and real inventors with a unique device. Open minds are good, but not so open that your brains run out your earholes, making a useless mess of timewasting and futile "experimentation".

You may be right about the hoax but that doesn't mean we have to stop looking at it just in case it is not a hoax.  I have tried to make the point that there is the possibility of getting significant motor torque at voltages where the sharp points and edges are not of any concern.
 
Smudge
   

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Dear TinselKoala.

Many thanks for the hints and tips. O0

The central bearing is a 2 RS and filled with production grease. I shall pop the seals and wash out with alcohol then apply some " clock oil " which is very light.

Now, the stator. Am I correct in thinking they need to be of a similar size to improve the repulsion/attraction?

I'm happy that you noticed that inner disc, but, IMO it "ain't " thin...... I would suggest a good 1/2" thick based upon the machines overall size and other components attached. I spent most of my adult life scaling IC engines from pictures I have a " good eye " for this sort of thing. It might just be there to reinforce the larger disc, but I'm unsure without more detailed pictures to work with.

Kind regards, Graham.


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Addendum.

I'm not very familiar with this stuff!

With the rotor stationary I'm seeing sparks leaving to my earthy sphere. Is this suggesting that my plastic is conducting rather than insulating? Oh, I can also draw small sparks from each of the spheres too.


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Graham,

It could be the plastic surface that is conducting.  I recall TK saying something about this.

Cyril
   

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It could be the plastic surface that is conducting. 
Especially when it is dusty/dirty + damp
   

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I have just earned......

             TWIT OF THE WEEK AWARD

Just found the specification of the plastic I used.......... ANTISTATIC

MK 2 disc underway.....


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I think we can all earn that reward.  I had to replace the rear shock absorbers on my Cortina Estate, spent ages lying under it sawing through a rusted-in bolt using a triangular file (don't ask!) only to find I was sawing in the wrong place when the wrong bit fell off.  Another time I was checking some wiring in our airing-cupboard and placed the Avometer on top of the conveniently placed central heating water pump.  Then wondered why I was standing in a pool of water (the pump had a priming button on its top surface).

Smudge
   

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SUCCESS!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6fiF6yJJX0

Thanks to all concerned.   O0

Cheers Graham


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Well done Grum, you must be pleased after all your efforts.  Now you need to find a method of checking to see whether the Earth's A field is having any effect in aiding or opposing the torque.  With your heavy wheel it takes time to accelerate up to a steady RPM so you need to take that into account.  Do you have any ready method of measuring RPM?

Smudge
   

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Indeed Graham,  very well done, an impressive build.
I love the way it gets "up to steam".

Does it run either way when pushed?


Itsu
   

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Thanks Guys.

I think you could hear in my voice that I was really happy.

Got to be quick, a storm is raging here, no electricity, running the WiFi from a UPS at the moment.

Obviously I won't be able to continue improving the build until our power is restored but will be thinking of a suitable method of speed measurement.

Verpies/anybody , could you draw that circuit for the micoammeter please?

Cheers Graham.


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Well done mate!  O0

With your heavy wheel it takes time to accelerate up to a steady RPM so you need to take that into account.  Do you have any ready method of measuring RPM?

I made a brief estimate of the RPM by counting the rotations of the silver ring in the center top of the disc. From 2:30 to 2:40 I counted 8 and from 2:40 to 2:50 I counted 9, and the disc still appeared to be accelerating as the video ended.

8x6 = 48 RPM and 9x6 = 54 RPM

An opto interruptor can be used to measure faster RPM's more accurately without disturbing the electrostatic energy state of the experiment / toy!


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Everyman Standing Order 03: Everyman knows Timing is Critical in any Movement.
   

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Indeed Graham,  very well done, an impressive build.
I love the way it gets "up to steam".

Does it run either way when pushed?


Itsu

Dear Itsu.

Yes it does run both ways.

Electricity back on now..... I discovered an  old Ash tree had gone through our LV overhead line.... all four properties were off for 4 hours, hat's off to those guys they battled against absolutely horrendous weather......

Cheers Graham.


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Well done Graham

I watched the video on my phone as been running around wife's clients since Tuesday, just got them to the airport and back home.

Interesting to see what comes of this, very exciting

Regards

Mike 8)


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