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Author Topic: Using the Earth's vector magnetic potential  (Read 95815 times)

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Been thinking about that Innova Tehnu machine and here is my take on it.  Those rear coils have some core material in them probably steel.  They carry DC but the flux is not continuous.  The coils carry current to give the effect shown in the attached image.  In the machine the pole pieces are hidden under white tape.  Each thingy on the wheel passes over the pole pieces so I reckon the retaining bolt acts as a core for the internal coil that drives the capacitance.  The things are filled with dielectric or possibly electrolyte material to get high value capacitance, as shown in the second image.  One thing I have learned from this exercise is that charge that is changing in magnitude as it moves around a circle has the capability of extracting energy from a magnetic vector potential.  So here we have just that, the charge is alternating by movement through the field from those pole faces and of course it is moving in a circle.  What about the front coils?  They certainly do look like Tesla coils but I think that may be wrong.  That large inverted U shaped thing sticking out of the coils could be core material so the flux is essentially contained inside the core as it would be in a toroid.  The wheely things are moving through the vector potential emanating from that core so they could be extracting energy from the atomic dipoles responsible for the magnetic flux in the core.  It could be extracting energy from the quantum domain.

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Dear Cyril.

Love those technical terms..... " thingy " " wheely things "   O0  :)

Attached is one of the latest photos kindly posted by Stefan at OU.com.

That white spatter was noticed by Luc, from it's position it hasn't come from that bearing.... Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?

Kind regards, Graham.


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Dear Cyril.

Love those technical terms..... " thingy " " wheely things "   O0  :)

Attached is one of the latest photos kindly posted by Stefan at OU.com.

That white spatter was noticed by Luc, from it's position it hasn't come from that bearing.... Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?

Kind regards, Graham.

Either PTFE or cellulose acetate.

The later you can use a packet of cigaret filters (10g) disolved in 200ml of pure acetone, when the acetone evaporates you are left with a flexible clear acetate which is non conductive. Being a liquid to start with, you can make any shape you want or dip coat, works very well, it is sort of rubbery when dry.

Regards

Mike 8)
« Last Edit: 2017-02-24, 17:21:44 by Centraflow »


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Dear Mike.

Interesting, but it had a more " exotic " name.... Mentioned on the Dally thread a long time ago.

My memory's rubbish these days.

Kind regards, Graham.


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Now what's that white powder super dielectric that was mentioned some time back? Anyone?
Titanium dioxide is white and has a dielectric constant of 100.  It is uses as a pigment in brilliant white paint.  Water has a K of about 78 so I guess water based brilliant white emulsion paint could be good.  Barium titinate is even better with K around 1000 but it is piezoelectric.  Don't know if anyone has tried powdered Barium titinate in an emulsion.

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First 2 pics taken at another time showing much more of the white stuff on the floor.

The other pics show the Gold covers with a bolt sticking out (on rotor) looks identical to glass jar lids which would suggest a jar is behind the gold lid and possibly containing the white stuff that leaked out during rotation.

Luc


   

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Dear Mike.

Interesting, but it had a more " exotic " name.... Mentioned on the Dally thread a long time ago.

My memory's rubbish these days.

Kind regards, Graham.

Mine too Graham :'(, I now see Cyril said either electrolyte (conductive) or dielectric (non conductive). If it is for high capacitance the acetate has a constant around 2.1, air is 1, also good to insulate, I was thinking of it being an insulator around the coil in his drawing.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860

As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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Mine too Graham :'(, I now see Cyril said either electrolyte (conductive) or dielectric (non conductive). If it is for high capacitance the acetate has a constant around 2.1, air is 1, also good to insulate, I was thinking of it being an insulator around the coil in his drawing.

Regards

Mike 8)
We need a much higher dielectric constant to get as much charge as possible on widely separate electrodes.  That 2.1 figure won't do much.  The reason for suggesting electrolyte is that a chemical change can release much more charge than you would get from a normal capacitor plate and at much lower voltage.  AFAIK little attention has been paid to half cells (a single electrode in an electrolyte) that are given a high voltage pulse where the possibility exists for an enormous quantity of charge to be temporarily released into the electrolyte in the form of positive ions.   To give an example, if we had an electrostatic motor of the Franklin type using 4 inch dia spheres charged to 100KV,  each sphere carries about 0.6 microCoulombs.  That same quantity of charge could occur in a half cell pumped with 1 amp for 0.6 microseconds.  Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge.  Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!

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We need a much higher dielectric constant to get as much charge as possible on widely separate electrodes.  That 2.1 figure won't do much.  The reason for suggesting electrolyte is that a chemical change can release much more charge than you would get from a normal capacitor plate and at much lower voltage.  AFAIK little attention has been paid to half cells (a single electrode in an electrolyte) that are given a high voltage pulse where the possibility exists for an enormous quantity of charge to be temporarily released into the electrolyte in the form of positive ions.   To give an example, if we had an electrostatic motor of the Franklin type using 4 inch dia spheres charged to 100KV,  each sphere carries about 0.6 microCoulombs.  That same quantity of charge could occur in a half cell pumped with 1 amp for 0.6 microseconds.  Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge.  Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!

Smudge

OK

So your electrolyte is your charge carrier as opposed to the electrode! just trying to get my aging head around this, I'm so used to electrode chemical change to carry the charge and the electrolyte to move the ions, it only has to be one as I use in my system, but there I use up over time the other collector/electrode, and only charge the one (with oxygen).

So you are sugesting the brass dome is just the collector to put positive charge into the electrolyte, then when it moves to another contact point of negative potencial, it discharges, but the collector in the electrolyte is now, possibly the coil, and not the brass dome (just looking at your earlier diagram with the coil).

Does the electrolyte have to chemicaly change, or does it just have suspended charged particles?

All fascinating stuff which needs to be experimented with.

Regards

Mike 8)

The fast pulse, high voltage charge works well at controling the current


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Pump it for 0.6 milliseconds and you get 1000 times more charge.
That would amount to 600μC

Imagine Grum's Franklin motor having 1000 times more charge on his spheres!
Then the repulsion force acting on two such spheres spaced 10cm apart would be equivalent to the weight of 3593kg ...and the device would tear itself apart.
   

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Then the repulsion force acting on two such spheres spaced 10cm apart would be equivalent to the weight of 3593kg ...and the device would tear itself apart.

 :o :o :o :D    That's THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONS!!

This all sounds really " far fetched " to me..... Laymans terms please ? Is this something we could test?

A four inch hemisphere, in Copper would cost around £12.00 each from my metal spinners.

Cheers Graham.


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Guys, don't get carried away ;).  I only used those numbers to emphasise the possibility that we could get much more charge temporarily stored in an electrolyte than we would normally get capacitively.  Verpies has succinctly described the outcome of  increased charge of that magnitude.  In the Croatian Innova machine I suspect the charging/discharging process is via voltage induced into coils inside the hemispheres although there is another possibility and that is voltage induced across the cell via flux cutting.  With the cell axis (electrode to electrode dimension) parallel to the rotation axis and the velocity circumferential it only needs some radial magnetic field to get induction across the cell.  That could occur if the hemisphere-jam-jar lid cell does not pass directly over the pole faces but inboard or outboard of them.  Either way the crux is that temporary storage of relatively large amounts of charge.  It should be possible to experiment with two pulsed cells near each other to see whether there is that large electric force present.  I would be inclined to make a cell with identical electrodes so that there is zero galvanic potential, but where impulse "charging" could make one electrode deliver ions into the solution.  Then see whether two identical cells exhibit this force.

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:o :o :o :D    That's THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONS!!
Yes, provided that these spheres are charged to 600μC.

This all sounds really " far fetched " to me..... Laymans terms please ?
It is the charging of these spheres to that level, that is the difficult part.

I'll leave it to Cyril to calculate how much charge imbalance can be provided by the ionic electrolyte half-cell, practically.  ...or by the MAGVID if that does not pan out.
   

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Below is a photo of a real device used to pump an electrostatically charged dust out of a clean-room ...resembling the MAGVID without confinement.
The coils are driven in quadrature to create a rotating magnetic field, which propels the electrically charged dust particles along that duct by Lorentz deflection (double-coil field rotation is shown in the animated GIF below).
   

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Now a little neater.....

Base to finish.


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I'll leave it to Cyril to calculate how much charge imbalance can be provided by the ionic electrolyte half-cell, practically.  ...or by the MAGVID if that does not pan out.

Not my field.  I'll try to do some research/self-education to see if I can come up with some figures.


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Now a little neater.....

Base to finish.
When you look out of that window just above the machine in what direction are you looking?  Hopefully it is near E or W then you can look for the vector potential effect simply by reversing the direction of rotation.  If it speeds up faster in one direction than the other then that is a good sign.

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I would be inclined to make a cell with identical electrodes so that there is zero galvanic potential, but where impulse "charging" could make one electrode deliver ions into the solution.  Then see whether two identical cells exhibit this force.

Smudge

The metal used must be pure as in pure nickel, copper, zinc etc, brass or stainless steel would be no good. I have shown what happens to SS when pulsed, it breaks down into it's base metal oxides, but can give huge current spikes on discharge.

I have done many experiments on this, not exactly what Smudge is thinking of though, but can confirm the high current discharge is possible from the reversing chemical change when pulsed. Funny how things start to overlap in certain areas.

Tell me exactly what experiment you would like done and I may be able to do it

Regards

Mike 8)



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When you look out of that window just above the machine in what direction are you looking?  Hopefully it is near E or W then you can look for the vector potential effect simply by reversing the direction of rotation.  If it speeds up faster in one direction than the other then that is a good sign.

Smudge

Hi Cyril.

The home is built facing South, the window is Looking North. My electrodes are HT..... West ( LH )..... Ground East ( RH ).

Kind regards, Graham.


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 Funny how things start to overlap in certain areas.


Regards

Mike 8)

Dear Mike.

I think that as we gain a better understanding of the " Nature of things " all will overlap!   ;)

I'm still reeling from Verpies post....... THREE AND A HALF METRIC TONS

Kind regards, Graham.


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Hi Cyril.

The home is built facing South, the window is Looking North. My electrodes are HT..... West ( LH )..... Ground East ( RH ).

Kind regards, Graham.
Hi Graham,

So at the point where the wheel spheres gain or lose charge they are moving along the N-S axis.  That's the wrong orientation but worth checking that it goes round both ways with the same amount of oomph.  You then need to turn the system through 90 degrees to get them moving along the E-W axis.  Then re-check whether there is a difference in rotation direction.  Best to do it when it is all mounted on a base.

Regards

Cyril
   

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Hi Cyril.

I don't quite understand your last post.

I'm applying charge ( in the photograph ) from the West and removing it at the East. We have already proven that the disc spins in both directions.

For the experiment we need to ( hopefully ) see a difference in speed with the charge placed on the North and removed at the South?

I hope to find time enough today to make a Polycarbonate base but am stuck with what to use as a Tachometer. I have a " hand held  " one but it tends to, annoyingly, auto off....

Cheers Graham.


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Yes, provided that these spheres are charged to 600μC.
It is the charging of these spheres to that level, that is the difficult part.

Dear Verpies.

Am I correct in assuming that the repulsive force of electrostatic energy is greater than that of electromagnetic energy?

Cheers Graham.


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Hi Cyril.

I don't quite understand your last post.

I'm applying charge ( in the photograph ) from the West and removing it at the East. We have already proven that the disc spins in both directions.

For the experiment we need to ( hopefully ) see a difference in speed with the charge placed on the North and removed at the South?

I hope to find time enough today to make a Polycarbonate base but am stuck with what to use as a Tachometer. I have a " hand held  " one but it tends to, annoyingly, auto off....

Cheers Graham.

It is the sphere movement while it is receiving charge that is important, it has to move along the A field vector that runs W-E for any effect to occur.  Your machine would work with the stator spheres above or below the  moving ones when the arriving charge would be along a vertical axis, that arrival direction is of no consequence.  Does that make things clearer?

As regards the tachometer, do you have an oscilloscope.? I think a small single turn loop on the end of a piece of coax would be able to pick up impulses from the sparks.  Use the earthy stator sphere and place the loop near the spark.  The scope trace should then show a train of impulses where you can measure the time intervals and that of course will give you the speed.

Smudge
   

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I think a small single turn loop on the end of a piece of coax would be able to pick up impulses from the sparks. 
I must object to this on practical and pecuniary grounds.  Any mishap and the HV will kill the front end of the scope fast.
Otherwise it will work.

A alternative idea: Grum must have a strobe light for the tuning love of his engines.
Perhaps he can trigger it with his signal generator and observe the rotation of his disk in the strobe light from afar.  When the disks rotates with any multiple frequency of the strobelight - it appears stationary.
   
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