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2024-05-03, 00:57:14
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Allcanadian	FE inventors being scammed « on: 2024-01-18, 21:43:10 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2637	Quote maxmalone Quote Why was S.Mark convicted of fraud? He took the money and never fulfilled his promises. I know his story and what he said and wrote. As far as I know, unfortunately, he is no longer alive. Fraud indeed, but most likely not for the reasons you imagine. You see, I know many real FE inventors who were scammed in the same way as SM probably was. The scam goes like this... 1)Supposed business person arrives claiming to know countless investors and everyone is going to get stinking rich. 2)Business person uses seed money to con inventor into signing NDA and rigged business agreements. The classic con to give a small amount of money to gain control with the expectation of disclosure and a massive return later on. The old "you owe me" con, give a little and then call fraud if the inventor does not comply with more demands ie. gaslighting. 3)Business person claims to have investors ready but never allows a meeting, history or disclosure of affiliations. They claim all the inventor has to do is demonstrate the technology and disclose how it works. If the inventor does not make full disclosure they are threatened with law suits and continually harassed/gaslighted. 4)Of course if the inventor was stupid enough to disclose anything before any real money/funds changed accounts then the imaginary investors disappear as well as the fake company and the dim wits conning the inventor. So I find it very naive when you claimed "He took the money and never fulfilled his promises". In my opinion there's a 99% chance SM was being conned just like most other FE inventors. In fact I have read about and heard from countless inventors who were fooled by this kind of scam and it reminds me of the Oceans 11 movies. Of course, you don't know anything and were never in the loop like some people here were. Please tell me your not naive enough to believe any business person is just going to just give an inventor millions of dollars when they could steal it for pocket change. AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

3D Magnetics	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #1 on: 2024-01-18, 23:48:40 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Sr. Member Posts: 328	Convicted of fraud ?? Please supply specifics as this seems to be another "attack the inventor/researcher" Brian Collins had some people taking civil actions. When somebody says or repeats convicted then its on record ..please quote or define yourself as a &^&^wit @ac Exactly ! Things this priceless completely overwhelms our capitalist business regime which can serve us well in many other circumstances . It wont be very long before we all have access to the learning required to un- bag the many cats on both sides of the bag . Steap is the foundation and the very best information available . An uncharged capacitor draws infinite current for a short time Every conductor is a capacitor . A capacitor can have many Plates Any inductor is also capacitor in relation to any other conductors in its vicinity. Obvious to some but most designs we make isolate these as separate entities. I hope that this is helpful. Feel free to correct me or clarify. « Last Edit: 2024-01-19, 04:00:23 by 3D Magnetics »

maxmalone	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #2 on: 2024-01-19, 08:41:24 »
Jr. Member Posts: 74	I do not agree that S.Mark is wronged here. There is no point in debating whether he was a fraud or an honest person. Unfortunately, there is no evidence to confirm that his devices were real except for his colleague Jack Durban who did not know how the device worked. He worked with Mark for several years. The only thing he said was that he thought the device was real. So what. Let me give you an example. 200 years ago and 2000 years ago there were reports of UFOs, but then there were no cameras to record them. Now there are billions of cameras but no one has photographed a UFO to say that it is a real UFO photo and not an F/X or weather anomaly. They are all the same. Everyone here wants FE. Even on YT there are millions of views for FE videos and stupid comments on how to do it. I think we know that these are just entertainment channels, just like UFO! but thousands of people believe it. Why ? because they have no knowledge other than their desire, what I want and how much it costs. People have become simple consumers. Therefore, they are easy to manipulate. You will see Deepfake! AI! Currently, you are no longer able to recognize whether the narrator in the film is real! The same with the image and in real time. We want to believe that someone who cheated others had a real device and they just cheated him. Please don't be naive. To this day, no one has shown anything because there is none! Now if something happens in one place, the whole world knows. This is the internet. People cheat others to get their channel popular!!!!! it's terrible what's happening. FE is an increasingly popular thread. Prices will be higher and higher for ebergia and there will be more and more wonderful devices that will only be scams! You'll see how much of it will be created. It's already happening. I believed in the S.Mark device and analyzed it just like others. I did a lot of tests based on the descriptions he said in the letters, but it didn't help me. From what I see, no one else got anything either. What is the conclusion ? Do you still think that S.Mark had a real FE device? Then I'll tell you what he said himself. ... My device works on the principle of a wave receiver. If there is a radio station nearby, my device detects these waves and amplifies them. I don't know how he did it correctly, but it is a simple power transfer. You could say he "stole electricity".

3D Magnetics	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #3 on: 2024-01-19, 12:26:21 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Sr. Member Posts: 328	... My device works on the principle of a wave receiver. If there is a radio station nearby, my device detects these waves and amplifies them. Rubbish that is NOT what he said and this is an example of the lack of attention to detail replaced with the Chinese whispers version . There is no hope for some ,made even worse for others . Perhaps silence is better than misrepresentation of what was described. Although the information was not complete ,making up stuff serves what purpose?

Centraflow	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #4 on: 2024-01-19, 14:19:31 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2838	@ Maxmalone, or is it Max Balone, sorry could not resist that. Well I have worked on solving th SM TPU since 2013, 2021 in November to be pecise I found out how it works, and few wanted to LEARN how it works, but loads who wanted everything put on a plate, wel not with me Jose. Those that know me know that I spend money on investigations and not gain anything. That being said, nothing is for free, you have to learn, and that for sure is time and more than likely money. I have had 10 people on one side learning bit by bit how this works, and now two have the information though I still don't think they really know how it works but soon they will. STEAP or the SM TPU is so simple, as Marks said, it is the inter-reaction of two frequencies causing a moving positive alternating wave. ANY moving magnetic wave induces CURRENT (not positive and negative as in AC). The wave is moving extreamly fast, a bit like an accelerator of electrons. The induction creates an equal and opposite current in a non ferro magnetic metal (side effect is heat, cause of effect like an induction heater ). The current is there and not used until a resistaance is place on the output, a dead short and you will have infinite CURRENT. End of this here. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

maxmalone	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #5 on: 2024-01-19, 15:22:22 »
Jr. Member Posts: 74	Centraflow....@ Maxmalone, or is it Max Balone, sorry could not resist that. It doesn't bother me because I don't know what you're talking about. Can I tell you a joke in my language ? Are you sure you will understand? I have the same data as you. You refer to my words and say that I don't care about words. It's funny . You know why. Because we are repeating what someone wrote. I don't have anything to confirm it 100%, but neither do you. We kick ourselves in the ass thinking we know something. This is the situation. Nobody repeated anything that SM said. The movement of a wave is modulation. Show me the effect associated with this? Preferably in nature. Don't just say that a wave on the ocean does this, because it doesn't. It is not FE because there are various other dependencies such as wind, gravity, water tides, etc. Even if someone knows how to do it, they won't share it with us. You know why I'm writing this. Because I also wasted several years on promises, thinking that these people had really discovered something, and I still hope so because I'm here.

GreyWolfn1a	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #6 on: 2024-01-19, 16:13:10 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 1460 Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks	Quote from: maxmalone on 2024-01-19, 15:22:22 Centraflow....@ Maxmalone, or is it Max Balone, sorry could not resist that. It doesn't bother me because I don't know what you're talking about. Can I tell you a joke in my language ? Are you sure you will understand? I have the same data as you. You refer to my words and say that I don't care about words. It's funny . You know why. Because we are repeating what someone wrote. I don't have anything to confirm it 100%, but neither do you. We kick ourselves in the ass thinking we know something. This is the situation. Nobody repeated anything that SM said. The movement of a wave is modulation. Show me the effect associated with this? Preferably in nature. Don't just say that a wave on the ocean does this, because it doesn't. It is not FE because there are various other dependencies such as wind, gravity, water tides, etc. Even if someone knows how to do it, they won't share it with us. You know why I'm writing this. Because I also wasted several years on promises, thinking that these people had really discovered something, and I still hope so because I'm here. are you sure you have tried everything ? I don't think you have or you would have some thing. Sil --------------------------- Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.

Centraflow	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #7 on: 2024-01-19, 17:06:36 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2838	Here is the wave, 800v the top pulse and 600v the bottom pulses. 200v differencial which is alternating positive only and creating a moving magnetic wave. Balone in English means rubbish, as in "what a load of balone". I am multi lingual But not Eastern European Regards Mike ------------------------ FE inventors being scammed STEAP delay shotgun effect.png (40.38 kB, 1782x952 - viewed 374 times.) --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

maxmalone	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #8 on: 2024-01-19, 20:07:02 »
Jr. Member Posts: 74	Have fun. I won't stop you from being naive anymore.

stivep	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #9 on: 2024-01-20, 00:38:51 »
Group: Restricted Full Member Posts: 102	Quote from: maxmalone on 2024-01-19, 08:41:24 I do not agree that S.Mark is wronged here. There is no point in debating whether he was a fraud or an honest person. I don't know how he did it correctly, but it is a simple power transfer. You could say he "stole electricity". Absolutely agree. Yes everything around us is based on energy transfer and/or conversion from one form to another and nothing else. ^{Energy stolen form nature(Energy for free) or stolen from someone else..- punishable by law} Inventor/ experimenter: typically wants monetary compensation for his work and/or some fame, Patent issued by Patent office doesn't care about any form of Open Source Forum criticism. These who can't patent the idea/ invention: An improvement to someone's existing patent can't be used without that primary patent holder authorization. The intention of party interested in work of the experimenter is often not(or not fully) transparent. Open Source and YouTube are common ways to spread information around activating all sorts of questionable "ambassadors" Allowing them to come too close creates most if not all of the problems. Tariel did that mistake too. That initially Friendly and Supportive - may turn into aggressive if not given what "he" was expecting to get. No single device I know about was ever mass replicated in area presented by S Mark, Kapanadze, Akula, SR, etc. Question: Let's say any of you is the Open Source activist who today replicated someone else's patent: What will you do with it next? Using it even for yourself is a theft isn't it? So who will you become then? Wesley « Last Edit: 2024-01-20, 02:41:53 by stivep »

Allcanadian	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #10 on: 2024-01-20, 08:34:10 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2637	stivep Quote Question: Let's say any of you is the Open Source activist who today replicated someone else's patent: What will you do with it next? Using it even for yourself is a theft isn't it? So who will you become then? Ah the old "theft" gambit which is weak at best. All technology and patents rely on prior art from other people so the notion of theft is kind of absurd. So anyone who claims they came up with a new idea and nothing influenced them (prior art) is probably a liar and a hypocrite. All ideas are due to some external influence. "What will you do with it next?", I would simply improve on the patent just like they did with other peoples patents tit for tat. Even better, use there prior art to show a different conclusion or novel use just like they did. I have yet to see any patent which I could not find multiple sources of prior art on so it's really easy to do. From experience I found it's always the shills and authoritarian types who accuse FE inventors of stealing electricity. A form of gaslighting to cast doubt on the inventors and frame them as criminals. A form of brainwashing to plant the idea that everything is owned by there supreme leaders even the air they breath. It's kind of sick in my opinion because it reduces people to a subhuman level as if they were cattle. I think they have mental problems. AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

stivep	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #11 on: 2024-01-20, 12:10:18 »
Group: Restricted Full Member Posts: 102	Question: Let's say any of you is the Open Source activist who today replicated someone else's patent: What will you do with it next? Using it even for yourself is a theft isn't it? So who will you become then? Answer from Allcanadian: Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-01-20, 08:34:10 stivep Ah the old "theft" gambit which is weak at best. All technology and patents rely on prior art from other people "What will you do with it next?", I would simply improve on the patent. Theft . Punishable by by law is: taking and using property from others without their consent.-that includes an attempt to theft . Use of improvement to a patent needs its owner consent. Quote from: Allcanadian on 2024-01-20, 08:34:10 From experience I found it's always the shills and authoritarian types who accuse FE inventors of stealing// and frame them as criminals./ AC Patents grants property rights to original inventions, from processes to machines. Wesley

GreyWolfn1a	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #12 on: 2024-01-20, 12:36:42 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 1460 Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks	Struth sheala your so full of it, just trying to wind folk up ! Patents only have a half life something like 25 years and there is nothing to stop you fabricating a device your self as for ZP or FE it's the Yanky Gov mafia who are the bad boys here as no inventor has ever got any thing past the patent office. Your not a builder So Your Motive as a critic sounds suspicious. Sil --------------------------- Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.

stivep	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #13 on: 2024-01-20, 13:07:41 »
Group: Restricted Full Member Posts: 102	Quote from: AlienGrey on 2024-01-20, 12:36:42 Patents only have a half life something like 25 years . Your not a builder So Your Motive as a critic sounds suspicious. Sil The life of a patent is no longer than 20 years but during that time the patented property is protected from thieves and swindlers. I'm the builder, experimenter and Open Source contributor in science for past 30+ years. https://www.youtube.com/@stivep1/videos here is one of my builds: https://youtu.be/Mn8TLBsR3r0?t=510 here is one of my experiments: https://youtu.be/izzujmKROWI?t=142 Wesley

3D Magnetics	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #14 on: 2024-01-20, 13:22:32 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Sr. Member Posts: 328	Its always fascinating when theft is defined in different ways depending on the context . For example"Theft" has for most part been taking something from somebody with out their consent and depriving them of their possession. The lines become blurred with things like computer software which is why the big players like rental payware agreements . Making false representations for reward of the acquired item is where we all know the guy is a scumbag ...but they may be within the law in the country they claim to be of .

chief kolbacict	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #15 on: 2024-01-20, 18:09:18 »
Full Member Posts: 196	Quote from: 3D Magnetics on 2024-01-20, 13:22:32 .but they may be within the law in the country they claim to be of . What do you have in mind ? What does it mean to belong to a country? Even if this country is foreign ?

void	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #16 on: 2024-01-20, 18:27:21 »
Newbie Posts: 7	Quote from: stivep on 2024-01-20, 00:38:51 Question: Let's say any of you is the Open Source activist who today replicated someone else's patent: What will you do with it next? Using it even for yourself is a theft isn't it? So who will you become then? Wesley Hello Wesley. Long time no talk. From what I understand, there is nothing stopping someone from replicating some device from a patent for personal use. My understanding is patents offer legal protection against others using the invention outlined in any given active patent for commercial use/gain. As long as the replicator is not distributing those patented devices to others, I don't think there is any legal issue, at least from what I understand. If someone just replicates a device in a patent and say posts videos explaining how others can also replicate a device in a patent, I don't think there is any legal issue there, as well. No?

giantkiller	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #17 on: 2024-01-20, 19:17:01 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1575 Frequency equals matter...	Just be careful of your presentation. This device is a rendition of the GEET and they threw that guy in jail. http://www.rexresearch.com/ogle/1ogle.htm Or search Tom Ogle inventor see what lists. --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

GreyWolfn1a	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #18 on: 2024-01-20, 19:27:42 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 1460 Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks	Quote from: stivep on 2024-01-20, 12:10:18 Question: today replicated someone else's patent: Using it even for yourself is a theft isn't it? No it is not! your goverment does it! with ET's [/quote] No it is not! There is the other practice where a patent application is made that is just an idea and patent owner has no device in production or in development, to catch a developer and then does your trick idea of suing the developer. Don't tell me that doesn’t go on as some guy from the pentagon was boasting they have a patent on every idea you can think off... Sil --------------------------- Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.

stivep	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #19 on: 2024-01-20, 19:40:41 »
Group: Restricted Full Member Posts: 102	Quote from: void on 2024-01-20, 18:27:21 Hello Wesley. Long time no talk. From what I understand, there is nothing stopping someone from replicating some device from a patent for personal use. Thank you my friend void for your comment: It does not matter whether you share the object or attempt to make money from it—simply making or using it is enough to qualify as infringement .It is also called theft. Personal use of someone's property without consent is punishable by law. An exemption to that rule appears to be Germany : Quote Dutch law and it specifically bans commercial use. Personal use appears to be exempt. Edit: this is the same in German patent law (Patentgesetz §11) explicitly which states that a patent does not cover private, non-commercial use. I advice to consult it with a lawyer. but so far this is the only country I found to allow it in entire Western world. I assume it applies to patents filed in Germany only. Quote from: void on 2024-01-20, 18:27:21 //videos explaining how others can also replicate a device in a patent, I don't think there is any legal issue there, as well. No? I’m not a lawyer, but according to my search results, it is not illegal to publish videos explaining how others can replicate a device in a patent However, the patent holder has the right to sue for infringement if they believe that the replication of their device violates their patent rights Russia- RF (Russian Federation): Russian businesses can use intellectual property, such as patented inventions or fashion designs, without having to pay or seek the consent of the rights holders. Affected companies cannot enforce their patents and designs against Russian imitators. based on recent changes mentioned in here: https://theconversation.com/how-russia-is-using-intellectual-property-as-a-war-tactic-179260#:~:text=This%20means%20that%20Russian%20businesses%20can%20use%20intellectual,enforce%20their%20patents%20and%20designs%20against%20Russian%20imitators. However the same replicator at exactly the same time, may be seen as criminal (thieve/swindler.) wanted by Interpol, and arrested if in territory outside of RF. That also applies to accessory to a crime, - workers, advertisers etc. Wesley

Centraflow	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #20 on: 2024-01-20, 20:06:19 »
Group: Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 2838	Not surprised in Russa with puta Putin, look it up it is Spanish, my second language, also speak French and Catalan, Russian is the last I wish to speak. Listening to all this about patents!! I have had patents, now expired, and I have patent applications, 2 were just to create the prior art, one which sunk that hydrogen scam that was based in florida in an office near NASA and exposed a frsud by two millionairs. Don't talk to me about patents, I have been around a lot longer than you. My first patent cost me 23,000 pounds sterling in 1989, I really do not know how much it is niw, and couldn't care less. My last post on this thread. Regards Mike --------------------------- "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident." Arthur Schopenhauer, Philosopher, 1788-1860 As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.

stivep	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #21 on: 2024-01-20, 20:48:19 »
Group: Restricted Full Member Posts: 102	Quote from: Centraflow on 2024-01-20, 20:06:19 Listening to all this about patents!! Mike Thank you Mike for your comment. It is quite helpful to an Open Source contributor / Forum to know how to present /act and not find themselves in trouble. According to my search - My understanding is (example) : If an entire device has 10009 screws and just one of these screws is entirely protected by a patent then the entire device violates patents law with all of the consequences of it. If an entire device has 10009 elements and none of the elements is entirely protected by patent and/or is only partially protected then the entire device might not be violating patents law. Quote If the essential elements of the patented invention are present in the thing in issue, then that thing is infringing. In general, a defendant's intention is not relevant in establishing an infringement: the fact of infringement is sufficient. An exception arises in cases of infringement by possession. Devices, machines and processes can be protected by patent law. Here it is important to understand that physical processes/phenomena ( products of nature.) can not be patented. So my explanation about physical processes e.g.: of energy transfer and/or extracting energy from the Schumann waveguide including Energy that happened to be for Free is OK with patent law and existing patents. Making a presentation without sufficient explanation e.g. "Kapanadze style" gives more chances to the experimenter to not conflict with the patent law unless the Patent holder agrees to it. That applies to my possible future presentation too.^{( likely this summer)} All depends.. Getting Even with some sort of "ambassador" is the driving point. With all due respect to the guy, etc...."give a man a mask and he'll show his true face" But making him to feel like a total loser is not my priority nor my intention. Quote There are no specific provisions in patent law that prohibit scientific investigation of a patented invention.( depends on the country) Wesley « Last Edit: 2024-01-20, 23:01:54 by stivep »

giantkiller	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #22 on: 2024-01-20, 22:25:11 »
Group: Elite Experimentalist Hero Member Posts: 1575 Frequency equals matter...	Red does not work. Green is resonant. ------------------------ FE inventors being scammed MuellerProgression.jpg (38.76 kB, 607x759 - viewed 261 times.) --------------------------- http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/

GreyWolfn1a	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #23 on: 2024-01-21, 13:46:26 »
Group: Restricted Hero Member Posts: 1460 Enjoy your trek through life but leave no tracks	Quote from: AlienGrey on 2024-01-20, 12:36:42 Struth sheala your so full of it, just trying to wind folk up ! Patents only have a half life something like 25 years and there is nothing to stop you fabricating a device your self as for ZP or FE it's the Yanky Gov mafia who are the bad boys here as no inventor has ever got any thing past the patent office. Your not a builder So Your Motive as a critic sounds suspicious. Sil I watched your video there is nothing OT about it you just show a bulb switching on and off and your play acting waving your arms about. I’ve seen more on some UT clips, and when I was at school with just coils and caps in a ladder network lighting a small bulb in science lesson about 50 years ago Regarding restricted information and your questionable comments on secrets and patents a good many EB circuit diagrams show wave forms thus making Western restrictions a mockery and over on OU some one like your self with reference to 'patents' and deaths on the like some one like your self was recommending guys build stuff and get it working and sell it through the under ground grape vine. Say no more nod, nod wink, wink (Monty Python). Hardly Educational. Sil --------------------------- Be aware I'm moderated because I complained about persistent trolls to Chet, folowing me round and got same treatment as perpetrators..This is the third time, You aint doing this again.

Allcanadian	Re: FE inventors being scammed « Reply #24 on: 2024-01-22, 05:58:28 »
Group: Moderator Hero Member Posts: 2637	stivep Quote There are no specific provisions in patent law that prohibit scientific investigation of a patented invention. Correct, we can make and/or use anything we want and our intent matters in the eyes of the law. As such building, using and testing any patent or device to learn and improve upon it obviously does not qualify as infringement or theft as you incorrectly implied. In fact, making and using existing patents as a benchmark for testing new ideas is an integral part of the scientific method. It's absurd to suggest making or using an existing patent or idea to understand it is illegal because this is exactly what the patentee did prior to patenting. They used existing patents and ideas (prior art) to produce a new patent or idea. Logically, anyone who claims anything was all there idea is a liar. It implies there experiences, education and others had no influence which is patently untrue. Logically, if there was no prior influence of any kind then they wouldn't know anything and couldn't have developed an idea in the first place. As Einstein said, "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources". So it is kind of funny when someone gets up on there soapbox and claims "it was all my idea or doing" because we know that logically they must be lying. AC --------------------------- Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger “The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman

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