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Author Topic: Induction  (Read 51792 times)

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Grumpy:

I am no expert on electromagnetics, but here is a good analogy:   You are at one end of a long hallway-style carpet, and you pick it up and you shake it up and down and you see the waves travel through the carpet.  So empty space is like a 3D carpet, and waves travel through it in the same way.  The carpet has stiffness and mass per unit area, and that's like the permittivity and permeability.  The ratio of the stiffness to the mass determines the speed of the wave, and the 3D "carpet" in space has a wave speed of C.

Also, the wave traveling through space is just the electric field and magnetic fields oscillating back and forth 90 degrees out of phase and in planes that are at right angles to each other.  Any point on the carpet does the same thing.  For the carpet it is the "velocity field" and he "tension field" that are oscillating back and forth.  Visualizing the velocity vector in the carpet is easy.  Visualizing the tension vector is a little bit more difficult.  When you are traveling with the wave on the peaks, that's where the tension in the carpet is at its maximum and the velocity is at its minimum.  When you are traveling along the wave at the the "neutral" height, that's where the tension is at its minimum and the velocity is at its maximum.  The velocity vectors and the tension vectors are 90 degrees out of phase, just like in an EM wave.

in both cases the waves are the manifestation of the flow of energy.  When you shake the carpet up and down energy is flowing out of you and down the length of the carpet.

Not sure if that helps but what the hey!

MileHigh

OK

Now move the entire building that the carpet resides in.

===================================

Another question is does moving or changing "space" have it's own magnetic field?  I think it might if it is polarized, since all the little virtual photons will be aligned, and they spin.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-17, 15:51:36 by Grumpy »
   
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G,    I think what you ask can be seen in the Stewart-Tolman effect & Barnett effect. I wonder if magnetoresistance and ferroelectricity can be related, too.
   

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Relativity predicted that a moving magnetic dipole develops an electric dipole moment.

Paul Dirac put forth the idea that space consists of a sea of virtual photons - just waiting to be pulled into our reality.

So, if you polarize this sea of virtual photons so that the magnetic moments are aligned, and you move them, then you will get an electric dipole moment.

Dirac Sea Induction
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...

homopolar generator is one example


I disagree.

A homopolar generator works because there are charge carriers (electrons in the metalic disk) moving relative to a fixed or stationary magnetic field. Yes the magnet rotates with the disk, but it's field remains stationary relative to the charge carriers moving around and through this field.

.99


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I disagree.

A homopolar generator works because there are charge carriers (electrons in the metalic disk) moving relative to a fixed or stationary magnetic field. Yes the magnet rotates with the disk, but it's field remains stationary relative to the charge carriers moving around and through this field.

.99

Disagree with what?  the homopolar generator is an example of a conductor moving with a magnetic field if you attach the magnet to the disc.  Both magnet and disc rotate relative to the "space" around them.

I propose that a current is also produced if the "space" around the disc/magnet is rotated  and the disc magnet is fixed.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Disagree with what?  the homopolar generator is an example of a conductor moving with a magnetic field if you attach the magnet to the disc.  Both magnet and disc rotate relative to the "space" around them.

I propose that a current is also produced if the "space" around the disc/magnet is rotated  and the disc magnet is fixed.

Read my response again.

I am saying that with a homopolar generator, the conductor does not move with the magnetic field. There is relative motion between them and that is what causes the induced voltage.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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Read my response again.

I am saying that with a homopolar generator, the conductor does not move with the magnetic field. There is relative motion between them and that is what causes the induced voltage.

A homopolar generator will still produce a current if the magnet is attached to the disc.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
A homopolar generator will still produce a current if the magnet is attached to the disc.


Indeed, and I did mention that in my first response.

Notwithstanding, the field does not move nor vary even if the magnet is attached to the disc.


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Indeed, and I did mention that in my first response.

Notwithstanding, the field does not move nor vary even if the magnet is attached to the disc.

A magnetic field resides in space and if it is homogenous about a center axis, then you can not tell if it changes or not when it is rotated.  This is synonymous with rotating a colored disk and trying to tell if the color changes.  If you cut a slot in the magnet, the field is now inhomogenous and you can see the rotation.

Induction is caused by the motion between the magnetically polarized disc and the non-motional space in/around it.
   
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Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like you two actually agree  :D

One is saying the apple is red. The other is saying the apple seeds are dark brown  :)

Something like that.... been a long day.
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Maybe I'm wrong but it sounds like you two actually agree  :D

One is saying the apple is red. The other is saying the apple seeds are dark brown  :)

Something like that.... been a long day.

I don't think we are agreeing actually, and that is ok. Everyone has their own perspective on things.


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   

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I don't think we are agreeing actually, and that is ok. Everyone has their own perspective on things.

The important thing is that we are communicating!

(I'll be back to the bench soon - think I have my triggering figured out now.)


All I'm getting at here is that there is another means of induction: move the medium and leave the conductor and magnetic field static

   
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I firmly believe that charge, like magnetism, is a property of space.  So I await your findings. 
   
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Quote
All I'm getting at here is that there is another means of induction: move the medium and leave the conductor and magnetic field static

Maybe just move the dielectric field (charge) within the medium. A moving charge generates a magnetic field.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/MovingCharge/MovingCharge.html

This would have the effect of a monopole magnetic field circulating within the torus.

We know that a common magnet circulating poloidialy within a torus results in a null output from the toroidal overwinding, i.e. all flux lines cut by the leading pole are also cut by the trailing pole. A monopole is needed. I think the only way to generate this is with a moving charge.

I did try this experiment with a three foot long cylinder with a coil wound over it. You only get an impulse when the magnet is entering or leaving the cylinder. As it travels through the middle region there is no output, neither AC or DC.

I should retry this experiment by dropping a charged sphere down the cylinder.

So I believe a monopole (scientific impossibility?) would generate a steady current as it moved
through the coil.....but I may be way off base and just confused.

So how do we convince a charge to propagate in a circular fashion around our torus.

I imagine that a circulating charge within the dielectric would have the windup or "turbine effect" SM mentioned as preferred paths are "established" by the charge.

"Best that a man keep his mouth shut and be thought dumb, rather than open it and remove all doubts"

Guess I've removed a few doubts.
« Last Edit: 2010-08-18, 01:17:15 by ION »


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Maybe just move the dielectric field (charge) within the medium. A moving charge generates a magnetic field.

http://www.its.caltech.edu/~phys1/java/phys1/MovingCharge/MovingCharge.html

This would have the effect of a monopole magnetic field circulating within the torus.

We know that a common magnet circulating poloidialy within a torus results in a null output from the toroidal overwinding, i.e. all flux lines cut by the leading pole are also cut by the trailing pole. A monopole is needed. I think the only way to generate this is with a moving charge.

I did try this experiment with a three foot long cylinder with a coil wound over it. You only get an impulse when the magnet is entering or leaving the cylinder. As it travels through the middle region there is no output, neither AC or DC.

I should retry this experiment by dropping a charged sphere down the cylinder.

So I believe a monopole (scientific impossibility?) would generate a steady current as it moved
through the coil.....but I may be way off base and just confused.

So how do we convince a charge to propagate in a circular fashion around our torus.

I imagine that a circulating charge within the dielectric would have the windup or "turbine effect" SM mentioned as preferred paths are "established" by the charge.

"Best that a man keep his mouth shut and be thought dumb, rather than open it and remove all doubts"

Guess I've removed a few doubts.


Thanks Ion.  I was trying a more general approach than my previous attempts to explain a virtual Wilson Effect.   Relativity predicted that a moving magnetic dipole develops an electric dipole moment.  Rotating dielectric cylinder, in a static magentic field, produced charge separation on metallic cylinders inside and outside the rotating dielectric.  The same effect is predicted by Willie Johnson Jr. when you precess a capacitor in a gravitational field (he probably works for he NSA now).  Even bound or virtual charges in motion (such as in a dielectric) produce this electric dipole moment.  Wilson believed that he could create current equivalent to a conventional generator if he could rotate the dielectric fast enough.

Vacuum is a dielectric.  Pulsing a coil with high self-induction with HV DC pulses contracts the vacuum.  A circle of coils, sequentially triggered will contract the vacuum and cause it to rotate like a peristaltic pump.  Bada Bing - Bada Boom - I just can't get my avalanche pulser to trigger reliably....LOL!

Side note: If a magnetic field is radial so that one pole is outside and the other is inside (sphere?), it would appear as a monopole.  Not sure what a closed mag field would look like...

If I can not get the trigger working this weekend, then I'm proceeding with free-running switches and delay elements.  Done screwin' around with this.

Side notes: 

1. the size of the field appears to be related to voltage and the density or strength of the field appears to be related to rise-time
2. You can "probe" the field to determine it's size and strength with the following methods:
    A. a magnet in your hand - you will feel it pulse like a tug - tug is stronger closer to the coil - if you feel nothing at the same distance as your collector, then adjust the field
    B. a sinewave through a coil or air-capacitor will change frequency since the permeabilty and permittivity of "vacuum" are altered within the field
    C. I suspect that a peizoelectric speaker or transducer will indicate a change, but have not tried this yet.

Anyway, I can map the damn field now.

   
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@Grumpy,
Can you possibly repeat your 'dropping magnet through your cylindrical coil' experiment with the following difference. Take 2 magnets placed on a steel divider thick enough to allow like poles to adhere so effectively creating a 'bar' with same poles at each outer end. Its one I will try for experiments sake, but as you have, hopefully the setup already, it may be done sooner.
A similar setup I will try is to pivot the steel centre so it can be rotated with a torus as the 'pickup' coil.
Im disregarding the textbooks with this but this TPU thing needs nonconventional practices regards the DC output.
In anticipation of an anomality...
Steve.
   

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I think it was Ion that dropped a magnet down a coil.

I just held one near a HV-pulsed coil and "throbs" - very eery
   
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Take 2 magnets placed on a steel divider thick enough to allow like poles to adhere so effectively creating a 'bar' with same poles at each outer end.

Unfortunately, the poles facing the steel divider do not hide their field lines, instead the field lines will follow the divider to the midpoint and sharply emerge at a right angle folding back to the opposite pole.

This again will result in a null, but I'm just theorizing, haven't actually tried it so I could be wrong.

Quote
A similar setup I will try is to pivot the steel centre so it can be rotated with a torus as the 'pickup' coil.

This arrangement would be somewhat similar to a "Newman" motor if the poles were arranged to align with the poloidal. I would expect no output since in this arrangement, the torus winding will be cut with equal polarity poles, possibly another null effect.

But good luck...there is a lot to be learned by doing the experiment.

I'm betting the charged sphere moved in one direction will produce the long sought after DC output.

But just guessing, haven't tried it yet.

Best of good luck in your research, Steve


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I'm betting the charged sphere moved in one direction will produce the long sought after DC output.


coming soon to a theater near you... ;D
   
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Hi all,
Initial tests on a cylindrical coil connected to a scope.
Dropping a disc neo through gave the expected humps on entry and exit with nothing noticeable while traversing the coil. Placing two discs (10 high x 20mm diameter) with a smaller diameter ferrite ring (30h 15od 7id) so like poles are outermost gave a double hump on entry and exit (inverse humps) but traversing the cylinder also gave a ringing down effect.
There exists the possibility that the magnetic 'core' had a wobble during its travel, causing this effect. Tomorrow Ill try to make a shuttle to prevent this.
The same setup using smaller neos in this configuration 'appeared' to take longer when dropped through a copper pipe.
I need a longer pipe to establish this as a fact.
Interesting at present but with mechanical inefficiencies.
Steve.
   
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Good work Steve

I'm guessing that a charged sphere would dissipate it's charge too quickly, being only a couple of pF to the air.

I thought maybe a sphere on a insulating pole with an external power supply to keep it charged would be the way, but the wire would also be moving down the coil,so this would not be a true test.

Probably the best way would be a hollow sphere with a high voltage cap inside. It could ride on a metal rod with insulated bushings. The rod could be grounded to one end of the coil, and one end of the cap would have a slider that contacts the rod. Sphere gets the other end of the cap.


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
From a post at OU:


Quote
In my course on electromagnetics at MIT, we were taught that "no one knows if the magnetic lines of force rotate with the magnet".  This is nonsense, and even Richard Feynman agrees with me.  There are a number of simple experiments to determine if the magnetic lines of force rotate with the magnet, and I have performed many of them.  In all of my experiments, the end result was that the magnetic lines of force do *NOT* rotate with the magnet.  The very best experiment that you can do is to obtain some ferromagnetic fluid (like "Magnasee" or "Magnaview") that has nano-sized ferromagnetic particles in it.  Pour the fluid on a non-conductive platter (like a plate or saucer. or a petri dish), and then place a neodymium ring magnet on the bottom of the plate.  You will now see the ferro-fluid arrange itself in a manner that reflects the position and strength of the magnetic lines of force (what Faraday called "tubes of force" in his writings).  As you rotate the magnet (on its magnetic axis) on the bottom, you will see that the lines of force do not rotate with the magnet.  You *may* see that some of the lines of force undulate a bit as you do this-- but that is because no permanent magnet is perfect, and there may be areas of the magnet that have slightly stronger or weaker magnetic activity.

What this must mean, is that the spinning and/or revolving charged particles in the magnet are somehow affecting (or "disturbing") the local space-time (the aether) that surrounds and permeates the magnet-- in a way that causes these "lines of force" to form.  The same thing happens when you pass a current through a coil of wire.

To really understand what is happening with either a permanent magnet, or an electromagnet, one must understand the nature of the aether.

<speculation
The aether, must have small particles in it that resemble a electric and/or magnetic dipole-- probably cylindrical, and spinning like a gyro at relativistic speeds.  These particles are probably very small-- on the order of one-half Plank length.  The aether, must be a fluid that is extremely dense (many times that of lead), but at the same time it behaves like a super-fluid to objects moving through it.  It is clear, that application of an AC electric field can (at least partially) make this fluid more dense (or rigid)-- much like a liquid crystal.  It is also clear that a DC electric field can (at least partially) cause this fluid to rarefy.  The presence of a charged particle appears to cause the electromagnetic dipoles to line up in a serial fashion-- creating "electric lines of force", that are perpendicular to the surface of the charged particle.  The absolute motion of a charged particle through the aether appears to cause the electromagnetic dipoles to form a ring (the "magnetic line of force"), the axis of which is normal to the direction of motion.  Since the electromagnetic particles are spinning (like a gyroscope), it takes time for the lines of force to be formed-- for the gyroscopic particles to "precess", and line up in a serial fashion.  The faster the particles move in the aether, the greater the energy in the magnetic field (and the larger it's influence.)

Neutral particles (like neutrons) must be formed of an equal number of positive and negative charged particles-- (probably one electron, and one neutron), but because the electric fields are so short, there is no observable electric field outside of th neutral particle-- though one does exist.)  If a neutral particle (like a neutron) is moved through the aether, there would also be an associated magnetic field set up for each of the positive and negative particles-- but again, the field is so short that it is not easily observable outside of the neutral particle.

It also appears that the aether can be "dragged along" by matter-- like eddies in a pond.  The Earth probably drags the aether around with it as it rotates on it's axis, and revolves around the sun, and as the solar system travels through space (towards the constellation Leo, I think).  This is why the Michelson-Morley experiment gave a null result (actually it was slightly positive), and the experiments of Dayton Miller showed a definite positive result.  This was the reason that Einstein changed his mind about the existence of the aether-- and declared that his "relativity theory" could not exist without it.

It is highly likely that the magnetic field allows a particle to "drill through" the aether without resistance-- as long as the velocity is maintained.  If the velocity is changed (+/- acceleration), then there will be a period of resistance to the change in velocity until the magnetic field reaches equilibrium with the surrounding media (the aether).

In this manner, we can explain inertia as an effect of the magnetic field around moving matter (whether observable or not-- it is still there); and (possibly) we might also explain gravity as a secondary effect caused by the electric fields that all particles have-- with rarefaction of the aether caused by matter, and other bodies of matter moving towards the lower energy state of the rarefied aether.
></speculation>

I don't know if my above speculation of the nature and behavior of the aether is correct.  What I *do* know, is that there is a Nobel prize waiting for the person that can provably define the aether, and provide mathematical equations that we can use to engineer things that interact in useful ways with the aether.

Oh, and BTW-- there *is* back-emf/back-torque on any Faraday homopolar motor/generator-- it is a silly notion to think that you somehow get "free energy" from a different physical configuration of a simple electromagnetic device.  No Faraday homopolar generator (or motor) violates the laws of electromagnetics or physics, and that's a fact.  Any claim to the contrary can be assumed to be measurement error.  [Yes-- I am aware of DePalma et. al.-- and I think that what they are claiming can be explained by simple measurement error.]  If I am wrong about this (and you want me to admit it), then you need to describe a simple table-top experiment that I can perform myself, that proves beyond all reasonable doubt that the laws of electromagnetics are being violated.

If you are looking for "free energy", you would be better off to spend your time experimenting with the zero-point energy field-- and trying to "pump" energy out of that.  To me, the most promising area of experimentation would be to follow in the footsteps of Tesla, and explore the field of his "radiant electricity" (aka: "radiant energy").


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"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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An MIT person?

At MIT the standard line is 'it doesn't matter if the flux lines rotate or not'. Unless the field density changes across the conductor, nothing happens. This is why you can stand a conductor in one place with no induced current. Whether the flux rotates with the planet or stands still, there will be no induction, except for the tiny variations he explains.

The only reason you can use a long-wire antenna to charge a battery is due to the static charge buildup. It has almost nothing to do with radio signals.
Telluric currents are another story.

There are two ways to increase the results of induction, aside from running more current through the primary or increasing inductive reactance. Increase the variation of magnetic flux density or increase the charge density.

At least, that is the way I see it.
   
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Hi all,

...maybe sorry for bringing this old thread up again. (Sometimes I feel like dropping on square one again...much info-input does not always mean much clarity for me... :-[)

Induction:

I realized having still not understood the closed iron-cored transformer.
(Maybe this has already been covered - sorry, I didn't find it... could then someone please give me a hint or a link? Thanks in advance!)

The primary coil I can "nearly" understand: current in copper coil generates magnetic flux which is "soaked up" by the iron core. OK. ...almost ok... but let's go on...

Magnetic flux is confined in the core, almost no magnetic field measurable at the outside.

Now to the secondary coil: how does the coil realize that there is magnetic flux inside the core if all the flux is confined?
...and how does it "see" ALL the confined flux?

The mathematic view is "clear" - but my physical imagination leaves me baffeled... again...


Cheers,

Sivispacem
   

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Sivispacem,

The magnetic flux may be confined to the core, but since this flux is 'changing' and is "within" the secondary, an emf is produced there.

A changing magnetic flux produces a changing electric field.

Hope that helps.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
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