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img  Allcanadian
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #125 on: 2012-10-25, 13:57:36 »
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http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1919-05-00.htm explain Fig 4 please


In fig 4 we see a circuit which I have tested extensively whereby no current is looped nor radiated which is absurd. It can operate at low voltages (12v) and at very low frequencies(1 Hz) to power a series load and it is easy to understand why for those that have built and tested this system. The changing potential on the wire/load couples to the space surrounding the conductor and this phenomena is well known in electrostatics. What is not shown is that the "capacity" varies to a great degree based on the relative humidity of the air surrounding the circuit.
The ground path or ground connection is not required, as well much of the confusion here relates to magnetic and electric lines of force which in reality do not exist, there are no real lines that is absurd, we are dealing solely with gradients.
« Last Edit: 2012-10-25, 14:32:47 by allcanadian »


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #126 on: 2012-10-25, 19:04:10 »

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Quote from: forest on 2012-10-25, 12:12:59
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/1919-05-00.htm explain Fig 4 please  ???

The power supply is AC and the capacity is coupled to the other side of the generator.
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #127 on: 2012-10-25, 19:55:20 »

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allcanadian,

The link you provided is most interesting reading.

Although Tesla was a brilliant man, he was not
infallible.  Towards the end of the article where
he expounds on the impossibilites of the Hertz
wave and the Heaviside Layer one must wonder.

If Tesla were alive today he'd probably rethink
much of what he'd written...

Can you see the error of his assumptions in
Figure 15?  And also Figure 20?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  forest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #128 on: 2012-10-25, 20:43:02 »
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This is interesting...
"The other invention, of still greater importance, is a peculiar oscillator enabling the transmission of energy without wires in any quantity that may ever be required for industrial use, to any distance, and with very high economy. It was the outcome of years of systematic study and investigation and wonders will be achieved by its means."
   
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Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #129 on: 2012-10-25, 22:40:34 »
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If Tesla were alive today he'd probably rethink much of what he'd written...

I imagine you may be correct however in the same light I would imagine he would be quite disappointed at the lack of progress we have made. Oh it may look like progress with the advancements in communication, computers and such but fundamentally most of the things which matter the most are really no different than 80 years ago. Here is one example, take a new car versus one from 50 years ago and strip away all the pretty bells and whistles until we have only the primary components which matter, how have they changed?. One might say there is no comparison by appearance before however after we see very little has changed which is true, appearances can be deceiving.

@forest
Quote
This is interesting...
"The other invention, of still greater importance, is a peculiar oscillator enabling the transmission of energy without wires in any quantity that may ever be required for industrial use, to any distance, and with very high economy. It was the outcome of years of systematic study and investigation and wonders will be achieved by its means."

That is interesting, Tesla also speaks of transmission through the Earth in a straight line at which point one can dismiss what he say's or consider how it could be possible. I prefer the latter as simply rejecting things we may not fully understand does not require a great deal of intelligence in fact it does not require any. It is also interesting to note that to some extent this has been proven as possible, quantum entanglement travels at hundreds of times the speed of light between any two points and the change in state constitutes energy. Which is odd isn't it?, not that long ago it was completely impossible and now it is not, the speed of light could not be breached and now it has .... it's all very confusing at times. It is also interesting that Albert Einstein knew of this and said it would happen and that when it did his GR theories would fall flat on their face, Einstein was a very smart man.

AC




---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #130 on: 2012-10-26, 09:21:58 »
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Quote from: allcanadian on 2012-10-25, 22:40:34
...
It is also interesting to note that to some extent this has been proven as possible, quantum entanglement travels at hundreds of times the speed of light between any two points and the change in state constitutes energy.
...

This is an oversimplified and misleading interpretation of QM. The idea of energy moving to complete an entanglement is totally unfounded.
With entangled photons, obtained for instance from non linear cristals like barium borate, the only observation is that when we measure the polarization of one of the two photons, we get a random result, for example vertical, and this determines the polarization of the other photon, horizontal. So if we measure many photons at point A, we get a random sequence but the astonishing thing is that we get instantaneously the same but opposite sequence at point B. But the non-locality doesn't imply that energy has travelled between the two points. A measurement doesn't change the photon energy. And it is not even demonstrated that something has travelled, probably not.
 
Even a simple photon is not something that travels in a classical view, i.e. it is not something moving successively from point to point along a path. The Wheeler's delayed choice experiments prove that the path depends on the final configuration of the setup, at the moment of the arrival. If you change the path after the photon is supposed to have passed this point, nevertheless the experimental result is changed.

We must remember that a photon has no proper time (see Eintein's relativity when v->c). For a photon its emission and absorption are instantaneous, even if light years are separing the two points. We observe a certain time for this transaction, which is t=c/d, d being the space distance separating the two points. This doesn't imply a speed in the sense of classical physics, with intermediate times and distances. Some concepts of QM stipulate that quantum interactions create the time and so, there would be no time until the photon is measured or interacts.

The QM formalism is clear and relevant but not the interpretations. Nevertheless it is known that "quantum entanglement" doesn't "travel at hundreds of times the speed" because nothing at all has been shown to "travel". It's just an image for the instantaneousness. In QM, an instantaneous interaction doesn't imply a travel because an absolute and immanent time according to which the quantum phenomena would evolve and intermediate quantum events that are not even observable could be timestamped, doesn't exist.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #131 on: 2012-10-26, 10:44:58 »
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AC is this the quote you refer to.(second paragraph)  Because I don't think he is actually saying the currents go straight through.

Quote
There is another difference.  The electromagnetic energy travels with the speed of light, but see how the current flows.  At the first moment, this current propagates exactly like the shadow of the moon at the earth's surface.  It starts with infinite velocity from that point, but its speed rapidly diminishes; it flows slower and slower until it reaches the equator, 6,000 miles from the transmitter.  At that point, the current flows with the speed of light -- that is, 300,000 kilometers per second.  But, if you consider the resultant current through the globe along the axis of symmetry of propagation, the resultant current flows continuously with the same velocity of light.

Whether this current passing through the center of the earth to the opposite side is real, or whether it is merely an effect of these surface currents, makes absolutely no difference.  To understand the concept, one must imagine that the current from the transmitter flows straight to the opposite point of the globe.
   
img  thx1138
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #132 on: 2012-10-26, 12:42:06 »
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Dr. Tesla filed two patents using the title Art Of Transmitting Electrical Energy Through Natural Mediums. The first, U.S. Patent No. 787,412 applied for May 16, 1900, does not provide a lot of information. The second, Canadian Patent No. 142,352 applied for April 17, 1906, explains many of the things being discussed in this thread. I think the 1900 patent was to lay claim to the method without disclosing very much information. The 1906 patent was applied for near the end of the Wardenclyffe project when it was clear that it was not going to be completed. I think Dr. Tesla at this time wanted to protect the details. The fact that it was filed in Canada would somewhat obscure it.

I put together the attached document that contains quotes from the 1906 patent and what I think they mean. You should however examine the entire patent before reading my writeup. You will probably find details I missed.

Keep in mind he always said, and stressed over and over again, that his method delivered power via conduction, not induction. Also look at Nathan Stubblefield's work on his wireless telephone - transmitting voice signals through the earth. It worked but had limited range because it used inductance and was also troubled by interference in New York City where electricity was already in use.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #133 on: 2012-10-26, 13:51:06 »

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If Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter transfers energy by longitudinal waves, this should be easy to determine, as the transmitter and receiver will not be coupled.

If so, then longitudinal waves are sent out and the receiver intercepts them.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #134 on: 2012-10-26, 15:05:54 »
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@Grumpy

If energy was carried away by waves, whatever the waves, longitudinal or transversal, the source would have to constantly provide this energy to the waves, as does a radio transmitter.
The behavior of high Q resonant circuits show that energy is conserved in the circuit, going back and forth between the terminal capacity and the coil and the associated electric and magnetic fields. When the source is disconnected, the oscillations are weakly damped, due to the losses, demonstrating that no significant energy is radiated.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #135 on: 2012-10-26, 17:50:00 »
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Exactly Ex., A big tank. and no matter what type of wave it is, when it is tapped the transmitter must provide more power, Tesla states that, clearly in the quote below.
He is clearly stating that if energy is taken out at another place then the transmitter input would increase.

http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm#043

Quote
Now, there is a vast difference between these two, the electromagnetic and current energies.  That energy which goes out in the form of rays, is, as I have indicated here [on the diagram of Fig. 82], unrecoverable, hopelessly lost.  You can operate a little instrument by catching a billionth part of it but, except this, all goes out into space never to return.  This other energy, however, of the current in the globe, is stored and completely recoverable.  Theoretically, it does not take much effort to maintain the earth in electrical vibration.  I have, in fact, worked out a plant of 10,000 horse-power which would operate with no bigger loss than 1 percent of the whole power applied; that is, with the exception of the frictional energy that is consumed in the rotation of the engines and the heating of the conductors, I would not lose more than 1 percent.  In other words, if I have a 10,000 horsepower plant, it would take only 100 horsepower to keep the earth vibrating so long as there is no energy taken out at any other place.


And to comment on one point that thx1138 makes in the DOC, when Tesla says the effect gets greater as the distance increases,
that is clearly because there is a node (0 volts) at the ground plate of the transmitter. So the further away you go the closer you get
to the anti-node (Max potential difference). Not a gain in energy, the only energy that could be added in my opinion would be from
natural oscillations from lightning strikes but because of the randomness of them they would likely be opposing the work of the transmitter half the time anyway.

This sketch kinda shows what I think would happen, however wasteful the exercise. Just imagine it scaled up so that the receiver is on the other side of the planet.

The sensitive device could use an inductive plate or something for the ground maybe. Do the testing after heavy rain and use a small stake would be my choice.  ;)
The sensitive device could be a handheld oscilloscope with a stake and elevated terminal to attach to..

With a small setup the ground wave would have no resonance, it would be just a disturbance, and a weak one too.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/Experiment002-1.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


Cheers
   
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Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #136 on: 2012-10-26, 21:52:28 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-26, 15:05:54
@Grumpy

If energy was carried away by waves, whatever the waves, longitudinal or transversal, the source would have to constantly provide this energy to the waves, as does a radio transmitter.
The behavior of high Q resonant circuits show that energy is conserved in the circuit, going back and forth between the terminal capacity and the coil and the associated electric and magnetic fields. When the source is disconnected, the oscillations are weakly damped, due to the losses, demonstrating that no significant energy is radiated.

Waves produced by changes in an electrostatic field take little energy to create, as you are only moving charges with potential.  The charges have the energy, your potential is just a slight imbalance. This would not be an EM wave as there is not magnetic field unless charges are moving or changing. 

Like the image attached, but without using a charged mass to move the other charges:
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #137 on: 2012-10-27, 01:58:26 »
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@Grumpy
Your getting warmer...

wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_energy_transfer
Quote
Electrostatic induction or capacitive coupling is the passage of electrical energy through a dielectric. In practice it is an electric field gradient or differential capacitance between two or more insulated terminals, plates, electrodes, or nodes that are elevated over a conducting ground plane. The electric field is created by charging the plates with a high potential, high frequency alternating current power supply. The capacitance between two elevated terminals and a powered device form a voltage divider.

The electric energy transmitted by means of electrostatic induction can be utilized by a receiving device, such as a wireless lamp.[23][24][25] Tesla demonstrated the illumination of wireless lamps by energy that was coupled to them through an alternating electric field.[26][27][20



Transient Electric Phenomena and Oscillations By Charles Proteus Steinmetz p616 --   Picture below from this excellent book







---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #138 on: 2012-10-27, 04:42:21 »
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Quote from: allcanadian on 2012-10-27, 01:58:26
@Grumpy
Your getting warmer...

wikipedia.org/wiki/Contactless_energy_transfer


Transient Electric Phenomena and Oscillations By Charles Proteus Steinmetz p616 --   Picture below from this excellent book


Can you explain exactly what that has to do with the Magnifying Transmitter ? Considering it is designed to operate at relatively low frequency,
which is explained by Tesla on numerous occasions in numerous places. And also designed to work at resonance with a continuous wave.
Where are the transients ? And where is the very high frequency ?

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #139 on: 2012-10-27, 11:31:37 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-10-26, 21:52:28
Waves produced by changes in an electrostatic field take little energy to create, as you are only moving charges with potential.
...

1) There are not "electrostatic fields" when voltages and currents are varying.
2) All electric fields, electrostatic or not, derive from a potential, except those from electromagnetic induction. Energy is V*I, large V and weak I represent an energy as significant as weak V and large I!
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #140 on: 2012-10-27, 12:17:25 »
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After the sphere is connected to the ground and then is isolated, it remains positively charged. So the work to remove the negative stick from the vicinity of the sphere by fighting the electrostatic force will be identical to the work done by the mutual attraction of the sphere and the stick when it was approaching the sphere. Net energy gain: zero.
   
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Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #141 on: 2012-10-28, 02:46:47 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-27, 12:17:25


After the sphere is connected to the ground and then is isolated, it remains positively charged. So the work to remove the negative stick from the vicinity of the sphere by fighting the electrostatic force will be identical to the work done by the mutual attraction of the sphere and the stick when it was approaching the sphere. Net energy gain: zero.

You are correct, and you deliberately ignored my statements to prove your point!

Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-10-26, 21:52:28
Waves produced by changes in an electrostatic field take little energy to create, as you are only moving charges with potential.  The charges have the energy, your potential is just a slight imbalance. This would not be an EM wave as there is not magnetic field unless charges are moving or changing. 

Like the image attached, but without using a charged mass to move the other charges:



If the work required to change the potential is less than the work that the changing potential imparts, then I have gained energy!
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #142 on: 2012-10-28, 08:05:22 »
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I guess this is kinda what I'm trying to say here (bottom quote), I just found this.

http://www.teslaradio.com/pages/li_notes.htm

Quote
Developing Long Island plant Tesla considered mainly the transmitting tower, oscillators for production of HF currents, choice of operating frequency, design of various coils, arrangements of terminals, etc.  His propagation theory was based on the charge redistribution along the globe.  As he did not consider only the static case, for higher frequencies (in this case frequencies above few Hz) he assumed that the zones of a half wavelength extent contain alternatively positive and negative electric charge.  He considered transmitter frequencies as low as 4 Hz, but he devoted more attention to 60 Hz. On June 8, 1901, he wrote:

Assume frequency of dynamo on plant under process of construction, 60 cls, and capacity C of terminal insulated 10000 cm.  With full steam-pressure on one of the boilers I can easily get 150 HP This will be only half of actual output.  To use the power to the full extent we must charge the terminal to a pressure P given by equation:

C·p2 = 150 746, from which . . . P = 409700 V .  .  ."

Continuing further his consideration along these lines, Tesla came around with figures that with 100,000 cm capacity terminal on the polar cap (a point on the opposite side of the globe to the transmitter location), one could get about 2 HP, which, in his opinion ". . . is enough to demonstrate practicability of power transmission."
[/i]

Quote
The ideas which were developed, and the results of research which Tesla carried after his return from Colorado Springs in January 1900 were not fully disclosed in Tesla's papers which he published after 1900.  Something was disclosed in [1] in 1904.  Here Tesla explained his intelligence transmission "World Telegraphy" plant at Long Island.  However, very little is said about technical details, most of statements .are prediction-like types.  From technical point of view, more interesting things had been disclosed in 1912 paper [2].  Another description of Tesla's system is found in a handbook [3].  Tesla's claim that "his" system is different from "Hertz's" is based on the fact that at low frequencies, and with small antenna I in terms of wavelength, radiation of Hertzian type electromagnetic wave is small.  "Tesla's waves," if we are allowed to use such a name, are in fact surface waves in modern terminology (as known, this type of waves are significant in the range of long waves) or the Earth cavity waves, known better as ELF (extremely low frequency) waves.  In "pure Hertzian" wave (in Tesla's terminology) there is no induced current in the Earth, except on reflection region which is not essential for the discussion.  In contrast to the latter, guided surface or ELF waves do not exist without current in the Earth crust.  Having this in mind, we can conclude that there is a truth in Tesla's statements about specific behavior of low frequency, guided to the Earth waves.  As regards correctness of his approach to the propagation theory based on outlined assumptions, more study is needed and we hope that it will be done in the future.

..
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #143 on: 2012-10-28, 11:20:08 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-10-28, 02:46:47
You are correct, and you deliberately ignored my statements to prove your point!

If the work required to change the potential is less than the work that the changing potential imparts, then I have gained energy!

Sorry I didn't notice it, as you presented nothing to support this magic method.
What do you propose to make it? An operation of the holy spirit?

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/2552/miracleoccurssw3.gif
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #144 on: 2012-10-28, 15:23:09 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-28, 11:20:08
Sorry I didn't notice it, as you presented nothing to support this magic method.
What do you propose to make it? An operation of the holy spirit?

I believe that if there is any merit to Tesla's "waves" and methods to produce them, such as his Magnifying Transmitter, may produce longitudinal electric waves.

Th Holy Spirit may be easier to evoke.
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #145 on: 2012-10-28, 17:43:39 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest
What do you propose to make it? An operation
of the holy spirit?

Surely you jest, but you're nearer the source than
many may believe. 



---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #146 on: 2012-10-29, 01:44:53 »

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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-28, 11:20:08
What do you propose to make it? An operation of the holy spirit?

http://farside.ph.utexas.edu/teaching/302l/lectures/node55.html

In fact, if the wire is straight, and the electric potential decreases uniformly with distance traveled along the wire, then the longitudinal electric field-strength is given by E = V/L (see Sect. 5.3), where L is the length of the wire.

If I pulse this wire, is a longitudinal electric wave produced?
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #147 on: 2012-10-29, 01:54:23 »

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http://puhep1.princeton.edu/~kirkmcd/examples/bernstein.pdf

It is well known that electromagnetic waves in vacuum are transverse. A longitudinal
electric wave can only exist in a medium that can support a nonzero polarization density P
(volume density of electric dipole moments).

Sounds like we have to polarize the vacuum to have a longitudinal electric wave.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #148 on: 2012-10-29, 01:55:43 »
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Can anybody provide a quote from Tesla, of words he spoke or wrote, which state that "longitudinal waves"
are the mode of propagation with the "improved transmitter" or the way the energy is transmitted, and a link to the source or a title of the
document which the quote is from ?

And I may as well ask again for a quote from Tesla, of words he spoke or wrote, which state that he was claiming
to get more energy out of the transmitter system than he put in. So can anyone provide one of those ?

No quotes will be a good indication to me that no one can.

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #149 on: 2012-10-29, 10:45:13 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2012-10-29, 01:54:23
http://puhep1.princeton.edu/~kirkmcd/examples/bernstein.pdf

It is well known that electromagnetic waves in vacuum are transverse. A longitudinal
electric wave can only exist in a medium that can support a nonzero polarization density P
(volume density of electric dipole moments).

I agree.

Quote
Sounds like we have to polarize the vacuum to have a longitudinal electric wave.

Quote
(from the McDonald's paper)
Let us recall the origins of the standard lore. Namely, the rate of work done by the field E on current density J is
J·E = ∂P/∂t·E = − 1/4π·∂E/∂t·E = −∂E2/8π/∂t      (19)
using eqs. (8 ) and (11).
This work is done at the expense of the electric field energy density ufield, which we therefore identify as
ufield = E2/8π=E2x/8π·cos2(kx − ωt),     (20)
for the longitudinal wave (3).
We readily interpret this energy density as moving in the +x direction at the phase velocity vp = ω/k, even though the derivation of eq. (19) did not lead to a Poynting vector.
We should also note that energy is stored in the medium in the form of kinetic energy of the electrons (and, in general, ions as well) that contribute to the polarization, P = Ne(x − x0) = − E/4π.

Therefore, even if the polarization is created in the vacuum where the positron/electron pairs are concerned instead of only the electrons in a wire, there is no clue that "the work required to change the potential is less than the work that the changing potential imparts".
   
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