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Author Topic: LTPU Center Toroid Breakout  (Read 46996 times)

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This rabid pitbul is not giving up...
I am looking into this center device again. It seems to be a commercially produced unit. I am particularly interested in the center dividers in the middle of each toroid. Are they plastic, aluminum, iron, or ferrous?
They do divide the 4 wires coming out in pairs.

Anybody have info or insight?
Thanks in advance.


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@GK @GK

Thanks for your PM and good to hear from y'a. I'm always in and out and around. Always reading the threads but mostly working on my Spin Conveyance Part 3 and also on some small experiments for others to try to explain it. So, SM's Toroids. Let me see during the day tomorrow I will post some ideas.

In the meantime look at these two links.

@Grumpy shows it well on this thread.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1219.msg19336#msg19336
So as it he shows how the bucking turns from one half to the other continues by passing under the divider before ti changes direction of winding turns, hence your bucking mode. This implies that the two haves are in series and would therefore require only two wire of the four leaving the toroid center. 

Another is this post I made on this thread that links to the idea of two lead pairs but not from each half of the toroid.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=356.msg13474#msg13474

I'll be back sometime tomorrow.

wattsup



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This rabid pitbul is not giving up...
I am looking into this center device again. It seems to be a commercially produced unit. I am particularly interested in the center dividers in the middle of each toroid. Are they plastic, aluminum, iron, or ferrous?
They do divide the 4 wires coming out in pairs.

Anybody have info or insight?
Thanks in advance.

I have always maintained that those devices are standard common mode chokes such as the attached pictures show, although some disagree with this position. The divider is plastic as that is required for the regulatory spacing requirements for these devices, which usually have to withstand 1.5kV to 3 kV. The potting in the center insures the dielectric withstand as well as securing the "flying leads".

These devices are of domestic US design because of the black and white wires that usually connect directly to the line after fuse and switch. If they were IEC the leads would be brown and blue. I have seen similar devices in surplus stores that I used to frequent in the 70's and 80's. Nowadays the devices usually sit directly on a pc board, so the flying leads are not used.

The toroidal core for CMC's has been largely abandoned in favor of the low cost and higher dielectric capabilities of the split bobbin/C or E core approach. Toroidal CMC's are now usually only found in small versions that do not require special mounts.

Try this to understand how they are used and for images:

https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images;_ylt=Awr5.ow8iSdY_n8APLRXNyoA;_ylu=X3oDMTE0OG8yMzhpBGNvbG8DYmYxBHBvcwMxBHZ0aWQDQjE5MTBfMQRzZWMDcGl2cw--?p=common+mode+choke+circuit&fr=yhs-invalid&fr2=piv-web

CMC's have special properties such as exact turns ratios for very good common mode noise filtering.

Note also that there is a video showing SM turning off the LTPU and a spark jumps at the precise switchoff time between the two windings and precisely at the closest breakover point, where the plastic divider meets the core and between the two windings.

 This proves that the winding does not continue around and also that SM's device required the high dielectric strength that such a CMC could provide. But I also believe he used the devices for their other unique properties, and not necessarily as filters.

Of course this is only my opinion, based on having designed commercial products with such devices in the distant past.

FWIW
« Last Edit: 2016-11-12, 22:02:01 by ION »


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Thanks for the answers!
I am pursuing a hunch:


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Thanks for the answers!
I am pursuing a hunch:

Coreless I presume? Well hopefully let us know what you have in mind and how the experiment goes.


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Sounds to me like SM used CMC's to loop back his output to the input.

The early TPU that turned off when flipped over only had one CMC, and possibly no static DC field circuit.

The large units with two CMC's are thought to have this static DC bias field and do not turn off when flipped over.  Was on CMC for the bias and the other for the controls?
   
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Am at work presently. I had started a post this weekend but things just got in the way of finishing it so sometime tomorrow.

But here are a few questions.

1) If the toroid is a standard CMC, then how is it that he uses the same one for the FTPU, and all other TPUs. If it is a CMC then why not use a small one in the FTPU since it was only running at 60 volts. So if it is a CMC, there are thousands and thousands of models for every type of usage, voltage level, amperage level, etc., so why did SM always use the same one in all his devices?

2) If you look very closely at the photo of the two LTPU toroids, you will notice that the windings have sunken into the core as if the wires melted their way into the core. How can that happen with a CMC if the core is ferrite?

3) Is it possible that all the the OU prowess of the TPU stems from the toroid itself hence it is not a CMC.

4) When you look at the windings versus the rather impressive core mass, seems like the windings are at a great disadvantage trying to impress or couple from one coil, via the core, to the other coil.

5) Is it possible the toroid is a current sensing device because many such toroidal current sensors cores share about the same dimensions. Four wires exit from the top center. Two could go the winding that is in bucking mode so both halves are one coil. Then you could have two of those wires that carry the output through the center. Since we have never seen the underside of the toroid, the top wires could in fact be going through the right through center so it could act as a current sonsor?

wattsup



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I say 'Air core'. This way the energy is not trapped which correlates to less losses. The flux has to travel in air in a capacitive function. Remember SM put the clamp meter at the center in air and we saw quite ALOT of activity. This is a huge clue. Take the opposite stance on everything SM said and a 100% agreement on his slight of hands motions. He gave more physical clues than electronic or physics clues.
I will have more results of my tests in 3 weeks. I have alot on my retired plate right now.
I spent days cleaning my bench and putting things away.
Now I am set up and configuring my next test in steps. I will not bore anybody with intermediates.

Thanks wattsup for the replies. I still stand my ground with my hunches and what has come off my benches.

I could see why SM gave the explanations he did and why he said what he said.
I have spent the last two years pondering the release of this type of effort. Haven't come to anything yet but the future holds an opportunity to exercise the explanation or production for any of us. SM must've been haunted like the rest of us.


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There is another type of CMC used in the audio industry to cancel the high frequencies from each channel so that the remainder is fed to the woofers.

Now what business was SM in during the time he discovered the effect? The speaker system manufacturing business at Spheric Labs. Bingo!

I'm betting when they went under, they threw a few of these out along with hundreds those plastic spacer rings seen in the OpenTPU.

I confirmed the plastic spacer rings with Jack Durban and they can be seen in the speaker design patent attached. They were stacked to form the top and bottom vent of the floor standing pipe speakers.

Jack said they threw in the dumpster lots of speaker parts besides the rings.

The rest is Occam's Razor. No need to get too far out


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Here is my view on the CMC.

I think one has been wired in differencial mode, and it is potted because of the high voltage which is circulating.

 They pass differential currents (equal but opposite), while blocking common-mode currents. Magnetic fields produced by differential-mode currents in the windings tend to cancel each other out. Thus, the choke presents little inductance or impedance to differential-mode currents. This also means the core will not saturate even for large differential-mode currents and the maximum current rating is instead determined by the heating effect of the winding resistance.

The CMC's I think are sitting on that HV source, a 1.5-3v battery spark generator like you find in instant gas water heaters.

I have a circuit drawn up for the whole system, if anyone wants it PM me :)

Regards

Mike 8)


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I'll let the cat out of the bag early:
http://www.qsl.net/va3iul/Homebrew_RF_Circuit_Design_Ideas/Multi-Q_RX_Loop_Antenna.gif
This shows the LTPU. With a 1.5v spark generator as the input this circuit will work on regenerative feedback.
The L2 / L3 can be the center toroids or the parallel loops in the ring.
This schematic fits all of SM's operations, any size constraints and limited Radio shack parts.
And with a switch in one of the L1 connections a charged capacitor can be the 9v supply.

Maybe I am hard headed too.


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This is what I have in mind

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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As a general rule, the most successful person in life is the person that has the best information.
   

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This is what I have in mind

Regards

Mike 8)

Is the output choke air too. It is labeled as a choke with no core. Just wondering.


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This is what I have in mind

Regards

Mike 8)

Mike

Could you describe what you think will happen with your circuit? A brief explanation of the components and how and why they are used.

As you already know, SM's devices produced DC output with some hash in the range of 5 kHz, all supposedly without the use of rectifiers. If they had produced AC, he could have stepped it up or down to any voltage he liked, and would not have had to manage the wide range of DC voltages we observe in the videos. (series connected array of lamps, voltages from 90 volts to 800 volts, the need for an inverter for the 180 volt DC device.)

It is my belief that SM found a way to repetitively kick electrons in a wire and speed them up to a velocity many orders of magnitude beyond normal drift velocity, which is very slow. This produced a large usable DC current and voltage in the wire or in adjacent devices.

Due to high speed collisions, there was a lot of heating in the wire, and the electrons would have to progressively create preferred pathways in the wire to allow for the high speed. This created the windup or turbine effect as SM put it.

Just my opinions based on the video evidence. One could argue that the output was too high an AC frequency or of a pulse nature, so had to be rectified, but that does not fit all that he has said about the devices, nor does it explain some of the oddities of the devices.

Thanks in advance for any explanation of your circuit, if you have the time.

Regards, ION



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Hi ION

Well I have not gone through all the TPU threads and read everything, so I had a stab at what I have read  :)

From what can be seen in the photos and the limitation of parts (that can be seen), what we seem to have is two chokes which seem to be HV CM chokes of standard production, sitting on a box which does resemble a battery operated spark generator, some caps and of course the external toroid (of which we don't know how it is made up).

Now if the circuit was running at 5khz there would have been quite a high wistle coming from the circuit.

Now thinking on what you have said, maybe the output transformer is not there!!! just C5 as I have shown and the output taken accross that, would have to be quite big I think.

What got me going is the heating up of the system, so SM say's. I know that when running CMC's in differencial mode and at the right frequency, they start to heat up.

Now the circuit (this config: has not been tried). Well the spark module is just a HV half square wave pulse @ very low current, C2 and C3 are bias caps (HV), C1 is a HV cap which becomes part of the resonant circuit formed with one coil of the choke and the coil in the outer toroid, note how it gets charged when there is an on pulse from the generator, and how it discharges when there is no pulse from the generator. Two things happen here, apart from the pulse from the generator at say frequency, a, there is also added from the resonant circuit, frequency, b. the result is a caos of harmonics, the power of which add and not divide into the input.

The external toroid is the collector of these "frequencies", the output with the neon center tap is the bring of that caos back to some normal being, and thinking more on the output, that final choke could be wired as just that, a common mode choke (for the possible TVI that was created on the very small TPU).

The fast diodes stop the back rush when the pulse is off (still some will pass) and the build up from the discharging of the biasing cap C2. If I used a 12v pulse, the voltage could be around 100v circulating after the diodes.

Now I know what you are going to say, well where does the energy come from? well I think it is this unique system of harmonic buildup. Like someone once said, if one person is in a busy square and shouts out, he may not be heard, but if all the people shouted out at the same time!!!

Hope that has helped ???

Regards

Mike 8)

PS I think if you look at the output (neon is used as a discharge tube) and if you turn the choke into a true CMC (each coil to one side of the cap) the output would be a hashed DC


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@GK!

Greetings from the land of woebegone experimenters.  :D

Finding white papers on the following is difficult and understanding them even more so.

Look into 'para-metrically pumped toroidal capacitors with sequential poloidal pump windings'. It is the only way, AFAIK, to produce a DC output from a varying control signal. Basically, it is a mix of magnetic amplifier theory with dielectric charge pumping vs. iron core saturation control.

This is possible when applying a clean varying signal, sequentially and in quadrature fashion to segmented poloidal windings wrapped around a toroidally wound capacitor.

I made my first by slicing a 40,000uF 400VDC Aluminum electrolytic capacitor into doughnut shaped segments.

There is a great deal of difficulty trying to maintain electrical isolation between the layers where the slicing is done. I think I went through a couple of dozen caps before I found that the sharpest possible blade works when slicing the chunks off on a slow lathe. (I have an almost endless supply of large caps being replaced during the PM processes where I work.)

Simple light handling will cause the layers to bend and short out but I did succeed after many tries.
The next step was to protect the edges of those layers from physical damage by coating them with Robroy Class I Div I ceramic cement. Later, I found out that super fine grout compound also worked.

After making four connections (one each on each end of the two metal film layers - In & Out) was even more difficult.

Charging the dielectric is most easily done by sitting the resulting toroid shaped device centered around the output point of an old fashioned lab room air ionizer.

The ionizer is intended to provide charge for the capacitor dielectric vs. applying voltage to the former capacitor's layers.

The quadrature, poloidially wound, windings were fed from a simple MOSFet H-Bridge circuit driven by a signal generator.

So, the simple hypothesis to be proven was that the small toroids were actually dielctric core with toroidially wound capacitor plates and DC was obtained from the former capacitor plates by pumping (in quadrature fashion) that charge around thus creating an IN and OUT for a completed load circuit.

Unfortunately, the best I obtained was ~1VDC with the pump frequency superimposed upon it. It had a very low impedance ( I could dimly light a 20W 6V incandescent lamp) but when all was added up it was only about 10% efficient.

I've seen studies from CERN using similar methods for multiple reasons but I'm not looking to create a black hole in my man-cave.

Not much time on the bench anymore but there were some interesting results  O0

EDIT>>
BTW, I could imagine using two such devices over a two port lab air ionizer with opposite quadrature rotation to quadruple the combined output voltage but never went that far.
   

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I know and respect everybody's viewpoint and dissertation from their vices. I'll put the PHD back in the closet.
When I found the multiplier Q circuit i realized it fit as part. It also lends it self to using the horizontal windings in series with the vertical windings. Add the Armstrong oscillator and the simplicity remains. Viola!
An iron wire winding would gain heat faster. I have done field models of this with the parametric circuit added long ago.
It is breathtaking and satisfying.
In the current configuration I just have to choose a frequency to drive and operate at. I have a suspicion these two are different.
In one helical antenna test I held an SWR meter at 1 yard distance and saw the pumping in and out. Gee, I see it! I put the amp meter in the field and saw fluxuations. Gee, just like SM.
Life happened and I had issues to deal with. Now I am back at it after a long break with fresh eyes and a haunted conscience.
Somebody else did it and I will too. And probably along with others.
My overall view is everybody is possessed by some cause. I like this one. :D
I can only assume that there are a few of us left here because the rest have failed and taken up drinking. :o
 


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Is the output choke air too. It is labeled as a choke with no core. Just wondering.

Sorry GK missed your question, yes with a core, as I drew this out quickly by hand I did not see I hadn't drawn in the core. The outer big toroid I think does not have a core as such, maybe wrong  on that, but the very small TPU I believe was a plastic frame, I have one identical or I did have as not sure where it is atm.

The other thing is I saw a long time ago the video of him cutting open the toroid, there did not seem to be a core as such.

Regards

Mike 8)


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"All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed, second it is violently opposed, and third, it is accepted as self-evident."
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Multiplier Q with sine wave:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IDnQYiYpNu4
« Last Edit: 2016-11-19, 02:06:20 by giantkiller »


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Yes, EM this is a new thread.
Based upon what you posted then the two frequencies are ~5khz and ~7.8hz
The 5k is the driving frequency and the 7.8 is the listening or tuned frequency.
And what I was aiming at was the 5k is used to drive the spark gap emissions, which is broad band.
This would in turn feed the 7.8hz tuned loops, which would synch with the earth Schumann.
Quote
The Schumann resonances (SR) are a set of spectrum peaks in the extremely low frequency (ELF) portion of the Earth's electromagnetic field spectrum. Schumann resonances are global electromagnetic resonances, generated and excited by lightning discharges in the cavity formed by the Earth's surface and the ionosphere.
One would have to derive power from this somehow to run the circuit.
Or
Then some of the tuned loops are tuned to 5khz and others are receptors of 7.8hz.
I have always wondered if iron is a naturally tuned material to 7.8hz. This would allow iron wire to resonate easier. SM did stick a magnet to the LTPU side as he swiped around. This would also trigger the verticals

I am just grasping for operating parameters here...

Extensive testing has proven two things:
What doesn't work or might not be instrumental and
some function that does work or fits SM's descriptions.

What I have found out is the verticals act like helical transmission antennas and the horizontals act like directed RX antennas.

Many apologies if this duplicates other threads. It is not meant to be definitive as of yet.


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Hi EMDevices

It is good to see you posting your ideas here again.

No I have not seen those pictures before.

Jack Durban told me they had a hard time keeping the Chrome plastic decorative trim on those hoop spacers.

I remember seeing Spherics Audio Labs speakers on ebay where the chrome was peeling away on the plastic spacers.

All hypotheses are certainly welcome but as usual, the proof of the pudding is in the tasting.

I think if we can duplicate the vibrational, gyro and washboard effects, the OU will be just a thought away.

Regards, ION


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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
EM,

I don't think that middle photo is of our SM. I remember doing intensive searches for anything Steven Mark, and there are a surprising number of them in the US. I recall seeing that photo too, but determined it was of a different SM.


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So, in the middle of the night I get an awakening.
What I see is Marco's dancing magnets.
This is the gyro, vibrational effect.
The driver speaker is not pushing away the vertical material but first repelling the field.
The core material of the vertical then moves to balance up with the pushed field.
Of course there is part of the magnetic field in the vertical material too.
In all the tests I have seen by all of us I have yet to see a magnet in the configuration.
The Kunel configuration is actually another representation of the dancing magnet.
I think 'Boom'.


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I did extensive research on Dave Doleshal. He was a founder and contributor to the polyamory movement.

Quote
Dave Doleshal has a Ph.D. in psychology from the University of California, Irvine.
He is a former directer of the World Polyamory Association. He has studied consensual nonmonogamy since 1995, and has a private consulting practice in Berkeley, California.

Pictures attached. Also attached is a picture of Mercury Marilla and Roland Schinzinger.

An interesting article on Mercury Marilla, seems to fit.
http://www.ripoffreport.com/r/Mercury-Marilla/Palm-Springs-California-92262/Mercury-Marilla-Mercury-Manzano-Mercury-Goldman-Mercury-Samala-Mercury-Mark-Premier-1-1334671

Interesting that he used many aliases including "Mercury Mark"

Somewhere I had a couple of good pictures of SM from a web search, I will try to find and post.

I have to agree with POYNT, the fellow you posted and identified as MARK does not appear to me to be SM. The features and shape of the head look wrong and the resemblance is only very slight.

There are far better look alikes out there.

How did you happen upon the pictures you posted?

Regards, ION
« Last Edit: 2016-11-19, 16:18:23 by ION »


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These would be some of my picks from a brief internet search . Just saying the resemblance is close, that's all

Also attached, the real Mercury Marilla, real estate agent in Palm Springs CA.


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