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OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > Joule Thief Circuits > Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments?
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Author Topic: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments?  (Read 330778 times)
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img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #375 on: 2011-01-22, 22:34:31 »
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Pre-empting the possible criticisms

Some of the criticisms will include:

1.   The rms value of the Instantaneous Power Curve was used as pointed by poynt99.

2.   Only 1 oscilloscope was used.  The configurations at the two separate measurements may not be identical.

3.   The voltage and current values are too small. 

4.   The grounding may cause problems.

5.   The apparent COP value varies with Input Power and could drop below 1.


These above issues will be resolved in the coming weeks.

The most important outcome is that of the first 3 screen captures.  The apparent COP was greater than 1 when the resistor value was both 1 ohm at the Input and Output.  Better prototypes, two better DSOs and a video showing effect of modifying connections and power input will be shown.

God is performing a Miracle in front of our eyes.  He is showing us how to use the existing, almost inexhaustible, non-polluting energy that is surrounding us.  Amen.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #376 on: 2011-01-22, 22:53:57 »
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  @Lawrence -- yes, one must utilize that a 100 ohm resistor was used in the output circuit for the 2nd and 3rd test series.
I will be working on trying to build a higher-output DUT; but if you have another prototype, I would be glad to test it!  So far, prototype A is our best DUT...

@all:
No answer as to how the output LED an be so bright...  I don't have a solution either.  The question stands:

Quote
PhysicsProf:  Now here's the question -- the input LED is noticeably dimmer with 0.75V in, but the output LED remains VERY bright.  Now, the input power RMS according to the scope analysis is 160 micro-watts...  that's 0.16 mW.  And the current in the output circuit determined by the output resistor (100 ohms) is something like
1.33mV/100ohms =13.3 microamps, which is not much at all for lighting the LED.

Now that bright output LED is running at less than 2.3 volts (2.3 V rms across the output including LED and 100-ohm R) with a current of about 13 MICROamps.   How in the world does it light up so brightly??
[/b]

  My colleague John at the University has a PhD and a great deal of electronics experience -- and he was puzzled by the brightness of the output LED given the input power -- and the output power.  So he hooked up a light detector to get a quick look at the LED signal -- on channel 2 (so ignore the power calculation in the attachments below).  The first is with the white LED provided by Lawrence.  We noted that this has a phosphor which extends the light output, so we replaced this with a fast-response red LED, and obtained the second plot.  With the red LED, it is clear that the light output is in synch with the jump in output voltage -- no surprise there.  

Then back to the white LED, but with the red LED in parallel -- but with reversed direction.  Guess what, BOTH white and red light up in this case!  the RED faintly... but shows that there is a back EMF in the output circuit to light the reversed red LED....  More fun.

Still the mystery remains, how the white LED can glow so brightly under these conditions, such low power input.
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #377 on: 2011-01-23, 00:39:06 »
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PhysicsProf:

Quote
PhysicsProf:  Now here's the question -- the input LED is noticeably dimmer with 0.75V in, but the output LED remains VERY bright.  Now, the input power RMS according to the scope analysis is 160 micro-watts...  that's 0.16 mW.  And the current in the output circuit determined by the output resistor (100 ohms) is something like
1.33mV/100ohms =13.3 microamps, which is not much at all for lighting the LED.

Now that bright output LED is running at less than 2.3 volts (2.3 V rms across the output including LED and 100-ohm R) with a current of about 13 MICROamps.   How in the world does it light up so brightly??

I am assuming that we are still working with the Poynt99 schematic.  Let's also assume that the output LED lights up the moment the transistor switches off.  The instant before the transistor switches off there is magnetic energy stored in the ferrite toroid that was put there by L2 which got the energy from the power supply.  So the discharge of this stored energy has nothing to do with the power supply voltage.  Naturally the power supply voltage affects the absolute amount of energy that can be stored in the ferrite core but that's all that it can do.

So when the transistor switches off that stored energy can go through the input LED and one-ohm resistor, or it can go through the output LED and resistors via the secondary pick-up coil.  It just so happens that the secondary path through the output LED and resistors has the lower impedance so most of the energy is discharged through that path and therefore the output LED glows brightly.  This would all have to be confirmed on the bench.

Quote
Then back to the white LED, but with the red LED in parallel -- but with reversed direction.  Guess what, BOTH white and red light up in this case!  the RED faintly... but shows that there is a back EMF in the output circuit to light the reversed red LED....  More fun.

You are still talking about the secondary winding here so there is no back-EMF.  Both LEDs light up because there is an AC voltage on the secondary winding.

MileHigh
« Last Edit: 2011-01-23, 15:28:00 by MileHigh »
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #378 on: 2011-01-23, 02:07:59 »
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Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-22, 19:44:03
 
OK -- I realize that the LED is blinking at about 100 Hz -- and that there are voltage spikes that will get the LED to light up, but BRIGHTLy at this low current and power?  How is that done?



I think the brightness is proportional to voltage(spikes) squared (I just pull this one out of the vaccum, can't back it up  :( )
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #379 on: 2011-01-23, 02:15:04 »
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Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-22, 22:34:31
Pre-empting the possible criticisms

The most important outcome is that of the first 3 screen captures.  The apparent COP was greater than 1 when the resistor value was both 1 ohm at the Input and Output.  Better prototypes, two better DSOs and a video showing effect of modifying connections and power input will be shown.

Lawrence,

You have been asked by Poynt99 to not make any references to COP values until some valid test data has been generated.  At this point in time as far as I am aware there is no valid test data available.

By the same token, my personal advice to you is to refrain from discussing RMS voltages multiplied by RMS currents.  It is truly nonsensical data that would be universally rejected anywhere.  I believe that is the basis for your "FLEET index" so my personal advice to you would be to refrain from using that terminology also.  These are just my personal opinions, I can't tell you what to do.

With respect to this Joule Thief circuit, you are up against some formidable obstacles to achieving over unity.  The source battery puts a measurable amount of energy into the ferrite toroid and then that energy gets discharged through the circuit.  There is no explainable mechanism for excess energy to magically appear out of nowhere.  Nor is there an explainable mechanism for your circuit to be receiving energy from an "unknown source."  This design is essentially a transformer design, and transformers are not over unity devices.

I am just giving you a brief reality check here.  At this point in time you have a belief that your Joule Thief circuit produces excess energy but you have no credible evidence to back up your claim.  Until there is some credible evidence to do just that, the wisest course of action would be to refrain from making unsubstantiated claims.

MileHigh
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #380 on: 2011-01-23, 10:54:06 »
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Quote from: MileHigh on 2011-01-23, 02:15:04

With respect to this Joule Thief circuit, you are up against some formidable obstacles to achieving over unity.  The source battery puts a measurable amount of energy into the ferrite toroid and then that energy gets discharged through the circuit.  There is no explainable mechanism for excess energy to magically appear out of nowhere.  Nor is there an explainable mechanism for your circuit to be receiving energy from an "unknown source."  This design is essentially a transformer design, and transformers are not over unity devices.

MileHigh

Dear MileHigh,

Please study the information from my bench:

http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=610.msg9586#msg9586

The explainable mechanism is Lead-out or Bring-in Energy Theory. 

This is not the traditional transformer design.  It has elements of resonance pulsing with feedback.  The operation is deliberately tuned to near the resonance frequency of a transformer.  (Which is a no-no for transformer engineers!!!)
   
img  MileHigh
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #381 on: 2011-01-23, 11:58:58 »
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Lawrence:

I will give you the simplest analogy that I can think of for the way the energy flows through your Joule Thief circuit:

The ferrite toroid is like a container that can store magnetic energy.  Let's pretend it is a bucket and let's pretend that the "energy" is water.

Here is how your Joule Thief operates:

1.  Water is poured into the bucket.  (Energy from the battery is transferred into the toroid.)
2.  The bucket is then picked up and poured down two drains at the same time.  One drain has a small opening and another drain has a big opening so most of the water goes down the big drain.   (The small drain is the input LED circuit and the large drain is the output LED circuit.)
3.  Go to step #1.

That's the operation of your circuit in very simple energy terms.  The most important thing to make the analogy even more accurate is that some of the water gets spilled when you are filling the bucket, and the bucket itself is leaky, and when you empty the bucket some of the water misses the drains.  That is to account for the losses in the circuit.

You believe that extra water materializes out of nowhere, so the bench testing has to be done to see if your belief is true or not.

The fact that the circuit has properties of resonance and feedback means nothing.  The circuit is not tuned to the self-resonant frequency of the transformer.  As a general statement, experiments based around the self-resonant frequency of coils are not any more interesting than regular LC tank circuits because they are both essentially the same thing.

That's it Lawrence, I will not push this issue any further.  I am simply hoping that in a reasonable amount of time we get the results of the testing that we all want to see.  Good luck to everyone willing to do the testing!

MileHigh
   
img  wattsup
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #382 on: 2011-01-23, 16:10:52 »
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@all

Is there a way to check the diode that is inside that transistor to see if it is still functional. I have noticed on some transistors that at certain pulse frequencies the internal diode can "reverse" its action letting juice feed backwards through the collector/emitter. As if the diode itself was a switch. Since this circuit has so few components, the transistor and its diode may play a more important role then is obvious at this stage. On the other hand if that transistor diode is by any chance shorted out, what would the effect be. A shorting out could occur right after it was built and no one would know about it if it was not checked occasionally to ensure no changes occur during testings.

wattsup


---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #383 on: 2011-01-23, 16:16:25 »
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The proposed future tests on FLEET prototypes

1.   Two oscilloscopes with the multiple and mean functions.
2.   The display should show the Instantaneous Voltage Curve, the Instantaneous Current (voltage across a 0.1, 1, 10 or 100 ohm resistor).
3.   The multiply function should be applied on the Instantaneous Voltage and Current before the mean function is applied to their product.
4.   There should be three displayed pictures: Input screen shot, Output screen shot and a side-by-side comparison.
5.   One or more pictures showing the components of the prototype, the exact measurement points with the necessary labels and explanations.
6.   Optionally, a video showing the full sequence from turning on the power (connecting the battery) to the settling down of the screen shots.  If possible, show the effect of rearranging the wires, changing the holes on the breadboard, changing Input Power or other actions that may change the pseudo resonance condition.
7.   Try to produce and work with prototypes with COP greater than 100 and mean output power greater than 20 watts.  The prototypes with a seven inch diameter air toroid and an actual capacitor and a variable resistor on the secondary circuit seemed to do a better job than the one-inch toroid used in Prototype A.

Have I missed anything???

Lawrence
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #384 on: 2011-01-23, 18:41:29 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Sounds reasonable Lawrence.

As always, the more detailed information that can be provided about the circuit and how the testing was carried out, the better.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  humbugger
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #385 on: 2011-01-23, 18:52:16 »
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Quote from: wattsup on 2011-01-23, 16:10:52
@all

Is there a way to check the diode that is inside that transistor to see if it is still functional. I have noticed on some transistors that at certain pulse frequencies the internal diode can "reverse" its action letting juice feed backwards through the collector/emitter. As if the diode itself was a switch. Since this circuit has so few components, the transistor and its diode may play a more important role then is obvious at this stage. On the other hand if that transistor diode is by any chance shorted out, what would the effect be. A shorting out could occur right after it was built and no one would know about it if it was not checked occasionally to ensure no changes occur during testings.

wattsup

The only diode I know of in a bipolar junction transistor is the base-emitter junction.  If this is open or shorted, the transistor won't work at all.  It will be obvious, I would think.  MOSFETs can degrade due to small oxide holes (punchthroughs) due to overvoltage on the gate, but regular bipolar junction transistors are pretty much a go/no-go device in my experience.

Humbugger
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #386 on: 2011-01-23, 18:58:42 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
wattsup may be referring to the MOSFET body diode (actually a transistor), but a MOSFET is not being used in the case for the LT JT.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  humbugger
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #387 on: 2011-01-23, 19:10:36 »
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Have you seen MOSFETs with shorted body diodes that still performed the switching function?  I haven't.  As I mentioned, the MOSFET gate oxide punchthough is the only mode of degradation I know of in both groups (MOSFET and BJT) that could let the device keep functioning but with degraded performance.  

That's what I thought wattsup's concern was...shorted BE juntion "diode" in a BJT going undetected.  Not going to happen!.
   
img  wattsup
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #388 on: 2011-01-23, 20:36:56 »
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I am referring to.............


---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  humbugger
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #389 on: 2011-01-23, 20:51:36 »
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Yep...that's the one!  If it is open or shorted, the transistor dies and will not work at all.   O0
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #390 on: 2011-01-24, 02:34:03 »
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@wattsup
Quote
Is there a way to check the diode that is inside that transistor to see if it is still functional. I have noticed on some transistors that at certain pulse frequencies the internal diode can "reverse" its action letting juice feed backwards through the collector/emitter. As if the diode itself was a switch. Since this circuit has so few components, the transistor and its diode may play a more important role then is obvious at this stage. On the other hand if that transistor diode is by any chance shorted out, what would the effect be. A shorting out could occur right after it was built and no one would know about it if it was not checked occasionally to ensure no changes occur during testings.
Good question and you seem to be one of the few people here actually asking the right questions versus the many people throwing about opinion as facts. Yes the 2N2222 is in fact the best negative resistance transistor I have found to date and I have used it for years (reverse polarity) in more circuits than I could mention. Unlike a zener diode which is a complete joke in regards to efficiency, the 2N2222 when near the reverse bias threshhold of 9v will conduct while in reverse polarity and when the bias is properly tuned can produce spontaneous oscillations in the Mhz. You can also gang the transistors in series to produce a higher threshhold which will produce the same high frequency oscillations based on the singular 9v theshhold, that is 9v,18v,27v etc... . I was under the impression this was common knowledge, hmmm
Regards
AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  humbugger
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #391 on: 2011-01-24, 03:18:56 »
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AC:  Do they work equally well when the base-emitter junction "diode" is destroyed shorted?  Do your neg-resistence circuits short the base-emitter together?  You've got me curious now.

Don't you agree that, in Lawrence's JT-type blocking oscillator here (which is what we're talking about) a transistor with a short or open B-E junction will not function in the circuit at all?

Humbugger

I'm aware of this type of "open-base negative resistance oscillator"

http://www.cappels.org/dproj/simplest_LED_flasher/Simplest_LED_Flasher_Circuit.html

But the Lawrence JT here is not operating anywhere near that mode, is it?
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #392 on: 2011-01-24, 04:46:12 »
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Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-23, 16:16:25
The proposed future tests on FLEET prototypes

1.   Two oscilloscopes with the multiple and mean functions.
2.   The display should show the Instantaneous Voltage Curve, the Instantaneous Current (voltage across a 0.1, 1, 10 or 100 ohm resistor).
3.   The multiply function should be applied on the Instantaneous Voltage and Current before the mean function is applied to their product.
4.   There should be three displayed pictures: Input screen shot, Output screen shot and a side-by-side comparison.
5.   One or more pictures showing the components of the prototype, the exact measurement points with the necessary labels and explanations.
6.   Optionally, a video showing the full sequence from turning on the power (connecting the battery) to the settling down of the screen shots.  If possible, show the effect of rearranging the wires, changing the holes on the breadboard, changing Input Power or other actions that may change the pseudo resonance condition.
7.   Try to produce and work with prototypes with COP greater than 100 and mean output power greater than 20 watts.  The prototypes with a seven inch diameter air toroid and an actual capacitor and a variable resistor on the secondary circuit seemed to do a better job than the one-inch toroid used in Prototype A.

Have I missed anything???

Lawrence


   Good set of instructions, Lawrence.  I did take some photos and video of the set-up with the 3032 scope last Friday, if I can get them off my little camera (can't find the needed cable...)  

This would make all measurements much easier, getting the signals large and out of worrisome noise:

Quote
Try to produce and work with prototypes with [FLEET Index] greater than 100 and mean output power greater than 20 watts.  
Wow!  have you ever seen one that good?

Quote
The prototypes with a seven inch diameter air toroid and an actual capacitor and a variable resistor on the secondary circuit seemed to do a better job than the one-inch toroid used in Prototype A.[/b]  

Can you please indicate where the capacitor and variable resistor go in the output circuit?  I assume the LED is kept in?  
In one test, i found that using a red LED (throughput at lower voltage) instead of a white one gave a higher comparative Index...

@MileHigh -- you wrote:

Quote
So the discharge of this stored energy has nothing to do with the power supply voltage.  Naturally the power supply voltage affects the absolute amount of energy that can be stored in the ferrite core but that's all that it can do.

The point I was making, I thought I was clear, is that John and I don't understand how the output LED can be so bright when the peak CURRENT flowing through the output circuit is so low, less than about 150 MICRO-amps (if I believe the voltage drop across the 100 ohm resistor).  I wasn't arguing that the low voltage of the power supply was the issue directly.

But all this is less important IMO than boosting the output current and power -- anything near 1 watt output power would make measurements easy.
And very fun, I might add.

I have purchased a small dual-channel DSO to help me with measurements at home...  Should get here in about a week.



 
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #393 on: 2011-01-24, 04:54:44 »
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Quote from: humbugger on 2011-01-24, 03:18:56
[snip]
I'm aware of this type of "open-base negative resistance oscillator"

http://www.cappels.org/dproj/simplest_LED_flasher/Simplest_LED_Flasher_Circuit.html

But the Lawrence JT here is not operating anywhere near that mode, is it?

I would say not -- for one thing, the frequency of the LED-flasher you referenced is roughly 2 Hz, whereas the Tseung-DUT oscillates at about 20K Hz to 750 KHz (on devices we've tested so far).
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #394 on: 2011-01-24, 05:00:38 »
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Highlights from the “Lawrence Tseung sent me a prototype to test…” thread.

Reply        2010-12-31 Start of the thread:  PhysicsProf asked for comments.
Reply 10:  2010-12-31 Use of oscilloscope hooked to laptop (Bitscope)
Reply 20:  2010-12-31 Picture of Prototype A and suggestion of thermal approach
Reply 80:  2011-1-10   First post by Lawrence Tseung providing workshop summary
Reply 100:  2011-1-11 Use of the term Tseung FLEET Comparison Index

Reply 106:  2011-1-11 Example of a working FLEET prototype in Hong Kong
Reply 108:  2011-1-11 Primitive Area Comparison to show true COP
Reply 127: 2011-1-12 China Made DSO used in Hong Kong
Reply 130: 2011-1-13 Exact position of the Scope Probes
Reply 131: 2011-1-13 PhysicsProf can get a Tektronix 3032 (DPO)

Reply 157: 2011-1-14 PhysicsProf found that moving components changed Index
Reply 172: 2011-1-14 Poynt99 pointed out the use of the mean function on DSO
Reply 205: 2011-1-16 PhysicsProf found the effect of using different resistors
Reply 225: 2011-1-18 PhysicsProf found the effect of changing Input Voltage
Reply 232: 2011-1-18 First screen shot with Bitscope on 4 replies

Reply 250: 2011-1-19 TinselKoala video showing effect of wire loop
Reply 255: 2011-1-19 Poynt99 offered to do testing with his 2 oscilloscopes
Reply 262: 2011-1-19 Comparison with Joule Ringer
Reply 295: 2011-1-20 Poynt99 provided schematic diagram
Reply 299: 2011-1-20 Lawrence provided improvement on schematics

Reply 300: 2011-1-20 Lawrence provided more improvement
Reply 303: 2011-1-21 PhysicsProf provided pictorial comparison with Joule Ringer
Reply 350: 2011-1-22 Preliminary result from the Tektronics 3032
Reply 351: 2011-1-22 First COP > 1 result using rms Power comparison
Reply 353: 2011-1-22 The apparent COP is 1.48 (6.486/4.388).

Reply 383: 2011-1-23 Proposed future tests for FLEET prototypes
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #395 on: 2011-01-24, 05:02:43 »
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@humbugger
Quote
Don't you agree that, in Lawrence's JT-type blocking oscillator here (which is what we're talking about) a transistor with a short or open B-E junction will not function in the circuit at all?
I believe wattsup was speaking of the 2N2222 C-E, as far as the B-E is concerned a short should stop any action however an open base is another matter which gets more complicated. We should understand that the only requirement for the B-E to turn the transistor on is a potential difference which leads to a small current through the B-E however there is no stipulation as to how this current evolves or where it comes from, we have assumed there is only one way to do it based on popular opinion.

Quote
I'm aware of this type of "open-base negative resistance oscillator"
http://www.cappels.org/dproj/simplest_LED_flasher/Simplest_LED_Flasher_Circuit.html
But the Lawrence JT here is not operating anywhere near that mode, is it?
Yes, I built and tested all those circuits many years ago and use similar concepts in many of my circuits which really confuse many people who have seen my circuit diagrams as to the trained eye they make no sense whatsoever. I have transistors backwards/open base as oscillators in series with a choke and parallel capacitance acting as buck converters, I have "y" configurations dropping voltage in one leg as voltage is raised in another and the inductance of the dropping voltage inducing the rising voltage. We are limited only by our creativity and our ability to evolve a technology to suit our needs, to take that next step nobody has considered. As well I like this technology because it's a SOB, it's hard and it's unpredictable because the bias is never he same. It's like balancing on top of a beach ball on top of another beach ball and when this bias on a razors edge hits that sweet spot the current drops like a rock and efficiency peaks.

Edit: Sorry I did not answer your last question, yes if the reverse polarity C-E bias is correct the oscillations can run into the Mhz which depending on the time frame of any measurement could be considered as noise.
Regards
AC

« Last Edit: 2011-01-24, 05:28:52 by allcanadian »


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #396 on: 2011-01-24, 07:01:50 »
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  While working on the Tseung-device and measurement technique improvements, I'm also trying to follow the work on another Joule-Thief-circuit analog, this one called the "Joule Ringer".  Now from a Darlington pair to a Darlington trio -- I found this fascinating:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDxSxM_8zlQ

First screen shot shows the two circuits Lidmotor has made -- top, JouleRinger with some of the output fed BACK INTO the input-circuit capacitor.  He doesn't say how long it runs, however.  Cool.  Need a schematic!  I'd like to build one, take detailed 3032 measurements on this type of device...  Lots of builders for the JouleRinger, but haven't seen any high-power DSO measurements on one of these.

Second screen shot shows close-up of a clever Darlington trio.  So sensitive, that just TOUCHING his finger to the input wires causes the LED to glow!  Wow!  (Is there some trick?)
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #397 on: 2011-01-24, 07:31:15 »
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Quote
First screen shot shows two circuits Lidmotor has made -- top, JouleRinger with some of the output fed BACK INTO the input-circuit capacitor.

What do you think he's seeking by feeding part of the output back into the input-capacitor?  O0  ...  Better get on his case, MileHigh!  ;)
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #398 on: 2011-01-24, 11:36:22 »
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Dear PhysicsProf:

The Joule Ringer has many experimenters working simultaneously and sharing their findings.  The development is likely to be much faster than FLEET.

However, I think you should look at the big overview picture as shown.  Once you accept that both FLEET and Joule Ringer have energy coming from the surrounding (what you refer to as unrecognized energy and I call Lead-out/Bring-in energy), you will realize that many devices with Output Power greater than Input Power is possible.

The extra energy comes from the outside. 

I believe the development of both devices will eventually lead to the Steven Mark type TPU as seen on youtube.  Then the commercial applications will snowball quickly.

http://www.clip4e.com/play_free_energy_and_steven_mark_tpu_demonstration.htm

When you have your new good oscilloscope, you will have much more fun.  Lead-out Energy theory will be an accepted science and many textbooks will need to be re-written.  You will be one of the pioneers.   Welcome to the Group of Early Believers.
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #399 on: 2011-01-24, 18:44:21 »
Group: Guest
True COP > 1 comparison

The following diagram uses the rough Area Comparison method.  The Input Power Curve is placed side-by-side with the Output Power Curve.  The reference zero (M) line is aligned.  The Output Power Curve is stretched 200% to account for the 10mVV scale as compared with the 5mVV on the Input side.

Without doing the actual area under the graph method or the exact integration method, it is obvious that the Area under the Graph at the Output side is much larger than that on the Input side.

Thus we can safely say with absolute confidence that:
According to the waveforms captured by the Tektronic Oscilloscope by PhysicsProf on Jan 22, 2011, the Coefficient of Performance (Output Power/Input Power) on Prototype A is greater than 1.

Poynt99, can I use COP > 1 now???
   
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