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Author Topic: Independent lab results testing E-cat device - very impressive!  (Read 36688 times)

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I think Wesley would.  Pretty sure he is heterodyning two megahertz range (300 & 800 I think) frequencies into his Colman reactor.  If you look at this device, it isn't a huge stretch to see the similarities to the E-Cat.

Matt your right, hadn't thought about him O0

regards

Mike 8)


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Matt your right, hadn't thought about him O0

regards

Mike 8)

If they are using off the shelf Thyristor triac controllers, I doubt seriously RF noise is a contributor. The zero voltage switched triac controllers generate minimal EMI, and the phase angle fired types are usually suppressed with inductors and capacitors to eliminate undue EMI. There are strict regulations for allowable EMI from thyristor power controllers. I used to design these things in a prior work life.

The high current surrounding the material is a different issue and cannot at this time be ruled out, however other E-CAT designs had the heater on the outside of the iron vessel reactor, which would shield some induction effects.


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The following is a bit of thinking allowed ;D

The test showed that by increasing the "temperature" the cop increased, but was that an increase in current input so as to raise the temperature?  I think that was missleading, I think the frequency was shifted or the duty cycle and the result was an increase in temperature with the same or less input, I personally think it was frequency and not putting more in to get more out!.

How fast can we switch Triacs running at 100amps ? 3 phase? anyone? could be square, sine or triangle wave as long as it is made up of an alternating current as opposed to pulsed DC.

Modulated AC square wave? multiple frequencies? heterodyning? it was stated that it was a special wave form and so of course DC will not work.

I think that the heating of the resistive wire does two things, 1.   to release the hydrogen, 2.   to bring the temperature to the reaction start level (catalytic) anything higher would not make any difference, that then makes the control totally RF ^-^

regards

Mike 8)


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If they are using off the shelf Thyristor triac controllers, I doubt seriously RF noise is a contributor. The zero voltage switched triac controllers generate minimal EMI, and the phase angle fired types are usually suppressed with inductors and capacitors to eliminate undue EMI. There are strict regulations for allowable EMI from thyristor power controllers. I used to design these things in a prior work life.

The high current surrounding the material is a different issue and cannot at this time be ruled out, however other E-CAT designs had the heater on the outside of the iron vessel reactor, which would shield some induction effects.

ION, it was stated right from nearly day one that the controller produced a special manipulated wave. Now I'm only thinking Triacs due to the high switching amps "100amps @ 4-5v", are there mosfets to do that current?

Rossi was very quiet about his controller!!!!

regards

Mike 8)


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Here is the 50 ohm 20 Watt Ohmite ceramic wirewound resistor running at 760 C and being held to a fraction of a degree with the temp controller.

I will run it at this temp for a while to relieve stresses then ramp it up higher to see where it gives up.


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ION, it was stated right from nearly day one that the controller produced a special manipulated wave. Now I'm only thinking Triacs due to the high switching amps "100amps @ 4-5v", are there mosfets to do that current?

Rossi was very quiet about his controller!!!!

regards

Mike 8)

What I get from reading the report is that all equipment was required to be supplied by the independent test lab and only the reactor core and the fuel were supplied by Rossi.

They do mention in the report that prior units were tested (By Rossi) with "specific electromagnetic pulses" but they had no design for this and all of the typical switching harmonics generated by the on/off or phase control of the triacs is accounted for by the PCE's. They do not mention which switching mode was used.

In other words, they used their own equipment and had no recipe for electromagnetic pulsing.


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I stand corrected ION O0

It was the other tests that I got that from, not this one, which seems quite different.

As of late I have problems of memory and start to get things mixed up >:(  probably the cause of some minor strokes which are now controlled.

I should have reread the report again, I only read it once the day before yesterday.

The original E-CAT was frequency controlled, that was the one he heated water to super heated steam and the reactor was made of copper I recall.

regards

Mike 8)


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I very much like your design, ION! 

A big engineering issue, is holding hydrogen gas INSIDE the reactor for weeks, when it is at 1400 C.
Can you or anyone see a way to do this?  (They use an alumina vessel.  I'm still surprised the gas does not permeate through and out... perhaps some does.)

I'm looking into fuel the last several days.

For the record:


2D   +   3He   →       4He      +  1p   + 18.3 MeV
2D   +   6Li   →   2    4He          +  22.4 MeV
1p   +   6Li   →      4He      +   3He   + 4.0 MeV
3He   +   6Li   →   2    4He       +   1p   + 16.9 MeV
3He   +   3He   →       4He       + 2 1p   + 12.86 MeV
1p   +   7Li   →   2    4He         + 17.2 MeV
1p   +   11B   →   3    4He         + 8.7 MeV
1p   +   15N    →       12C      + 4He   + 5.0 MeV[2]

These reactions are all "aneutronic" -- emit no neutrons.  Also, no gammas...  Very clean nuclear reactions.
--Steve
   
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Personally like the
p + 7Li
and
p +  11B

reactions best -- producing inert helium! used in childrens balloons etc.

I don't know of anyone who has looked at  p+11B yet (non-energetic protons, ie as a LENR reaction), but I'd like to try it...
I would call it "anomalous fusion" I think, or "anomalous transmutation" especially if we go to p+Ni reactions etc.  Remember Iwamura's excellent transmutation research also, e.g., p + Cs --> Pr.

Note: Boron naturally occurs in two isotopes, 10B and 11B, the latter of which makes up about 80% of natural boron.
Cool IMHO.
   
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Here are a few more shots, this time at 900C.

Shop lite on and shop lite off.

Pictures shown running in closed loop mode with a temperature controller and type "K" thermocouple.

At about 920 C the vitreous coating melted but it still was running so I backed it off to 900 C and took the pictures.

The ceramic mandrel remains intact with just a small coating of vitreous glaze. I'm sure  sand or alumina powder in a container will pull some of the heat away from the outside in a gentle way and still allow running at high temperature.

I'm putting 220 Watts into a 20 Watt rated resistor and it is surviving. This can be vastly improved, but is a first rough cut to see what can be done with off the shelf components.

220 watts at 110 Volts is only 2 amps draw so this is easily controlled with a low power triac, also nicely in the range of the Kill A Watt meter for power logging.

Next I will make some alumina seals for the end caps and cement them in with the thermocouple (Type K ) and some sand.

Then I will be hungry for some fuel.

The 20 Watt 50 Ohm resistor is just about perfect, as the controller is running about 95% 0n time.

I also ran it in open loop mode from a Variac and it required about 110 volts for 900 C so 50 Ohms is nice for this heat range.


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From PhysProf
Quote
A big engineering issue, is holding hydrogen gas INSIDE the reactor for weeks, when it is at 1400 C.
Can you or anyone see a way to do this?  (They use an alumina vessel.  I'm still surprised the gas does not permeate through and out... perhaps some does.)

Maybe as Mike noted earlier some Lithium Aluminum Hydride is also added to the mix to make the Hydrogen "on the fly" so no need to store it and ok if some leaks out as it is replenished.

It should not be necessary to run for weeks for proof of COP>1, a few hours should give us enough info, but a few days is also do able.

BTW, Thanks for the calculations.


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Impressive work with your resistors, ION!

From PhysProf
Maybe as Mike noted earlier some Lithium Aluminum Hydride is also added to the mix to make the Hydrogen "on the fly" so no need to store it and ok if some leaks out as it is replenished.

It should not be necessary to run for weeks for proof of COP>1, a few hours should give us enough info, but a few days is also do able.

BTW, Thanks for the calculations.

 Lithium Aluminum Hydride call it lah, decomposes by around 200 C releasing hydrogen...  So above that, one has to contain the gas.  Hopefully your caps will do the job...

Test - Perhaps put a little water inside, say, let it turn to steam during "run".  Then cool back down and see how much water is still in there?

 I've got lah on order... seeking Ni powder. And some boron (what the heck?)
 Shall we work together on this?  how would you like to proceed?  (ps - I'm in Missouri now...)

  Heat measurement first, i think - but we should definitely look at p-Li and p-Ni (and p-B if we add boron) reactions after run, by looking at isotopes that might have reacted.

 
   
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The resistor topped out at 970 C but showed no signs of destruction. On the next run, I will use a slightly higher line voltage or slightly lower value resistor to try to find the point of destruction.

That's the best you can get from a nominal 50 Ohm resistor run full tilt at 115 VAC (my line voltage). This was 250 Watts even and the Temperature controller was on full. Actual resistance was closer to 52.9 Ohms.

The resistors are dipped or painted with the glazing material, then fired in a high temperature kiln, so I suppose they can take about 1000 C for a short time.

I'm happy that the terminations on the ends held up just fine. They ran dark compared to the bright glow around the center.

I'm sure the resistor will have a slight positive temperature coefficient at these temperatures.

I want to get more experience and shoot for higher temperatures. Also I want to  use sand or other loose refractory material in a vessel that I will immerse the resistor in.

I'm not ready to move on to the fueling just yet, need to refine the setup and include a strip chart recorder or data logger.

I'm happy to work with you, Steve, and all interested parties on this.


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  Great progress, ION!  very good.

  No rush on the set-up really, as it will take a while to get the ingredients together for the fuel...
which looks like "mainly" 

lah  - expensive, but worth it for the hydrogen we need in the vessel (much easier than messing with a hydrogen tank and valves!)
nickel - fine powder.

Then an appendix makes the non-quantitative comment  -

"Sample 2 was the fuel used .. in the form of a very fine powder."  --  OK, that seems important.
"Besides the analyzed elements [Ni, Li and Al] it has been found that the fuel also contains rather high concentrations of [here comes the dirty laundry list]
C, Ca, Cl, Fe, Mg, Mn  and these are not found in the ash." -- Appendix 4

A bit of a red flag there  perhaps... I'll try to reach the chemist involved if I can; and if he will respond...

Anyway, my thought is to KeepISS, just lah + Ni powders, at least at first.

If anyone has further solid information on the FUEL, pls let me know!
--Steve

   
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I agree, starting with a simple mix then work our way into more exotic mixes.

I have an idea that will make testing even easier. Hallow rods of alumina that fit snugly into the heater body will make for a quick change fuel rod setup where different mixes can be inserted into the heater element and tested without having to disassemble the entire test set.

If we intend to go over 1000 C, we will need to create our own heater assemblies as I noticed some plasticity of the ceramic mandrel that the resistance wire is wound on at a temperature of 1082 C

Latest numbers for the stock 50 Ohm 20 Watt Ohmite resistor are:

Temperature = 1082 C
Power required=275.6 Watts
Voltage 118.6
Amperage 2.31

Photos attached

All should see my rationale outlined in the schematic I posted earlier. (http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=2647.msg42246#msg42246)
To recap, let's say we are running the system at 1000 C with an even 250 Watts power input and this setpoint is maintained by the temperature controller. As the system enters an exothermic state, the temperature controller will cut back power to some lower value as part of the heat comes from the exothermic reaction.

By observing the power in Watts drawn (on our Kill A WAtt meter) pre-exothermic compared to post-exothermic we will be able to easily compute the difference in Watts equivalent heat being generated by the fuel. The system will not enter any runaway that would occur with a fixed power input, as the temperature controller will try to maintain setpoint by reducing it's power contribution.

I believe this is the simplest method to determine anomalous heat output when the system requires an initiating preheat.

In future embodiments and should it be necessary, we can even add a cooling function to prevent gross overheating and still maintain our control setpoint.

I'm even thinking ahead and considering a design where electrodes are added to our fuel rods expressly for the purpose of introducing RF energy in the manner of Colman-Gillespie.
« Last Edit: 2014-10-13, 14:27:50 by ION »


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Excellent engineering and progress, ION - and thanks for the photos!

I think 1000 C is hot enough to see the effect (again, if it is real).  Very exciting really.
   
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Excellent engineering and progress, ION - and thanks for the photos!

I think 1000 C is hot enough to see the effect (again, if it is real).  Very exciting really.

Thanks

Attached is the data sheet for the resistors, and I was surprised to see the derating curves go to 350 C. I'm sure there are better resistors available, possibly with higher temp ratings but I have not done the search yet. I used these because they were on hand.

The center hole is a nice even 0.25 " and length is 2.0". I think we can make the fuel rod inserts the full length of 2"  and plug the insert ends internally with 0.5" or so of alumina cemented in place. This will leave an active area of 1.5" for fuel centered nicely in the hottest zone. We can also pressure load the plugs until the cement dries for a mildly compacted fuel.

When the test is complete, the sealed rods can be removed and shipped to university for analysis, preserving the material from contamination.

Dimensional information is also on the data sheet which is also available here:

http://www.alliedelec.com/search/productdetail.aspx?sku=70023771&mkwid=AuqGSRCC&pcrid=30980760979&gclid=CObPu83sqcECFWVp7Aod4VwAGQ


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  Good ideas again, ION.

  For those pursuing the chemistry and physics with me here, pls join in reading an informative patent:

http://www.google.com/patents/US3948700

which discusses hydrogen formation from a (hot) thermitic reaction of AlH3 and Fe2O3.  
I think that LAH will likewise undergo a hot thermitic reaction, but if anyone can find a patent or paper on LAH + Fe2O3 reactions I would appreciate it!  The Lugano experiments involve lithium and are said to use LiAlH4 aka LAH. 
   
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http://shutdownrossi.com/e-cat-science/hanno-essen-admits-recent-test-of-e-cat-not-science/

So I went to this site and read (at the bottom of this report you linked):

Quote
Gary Wright
June 3, 2013

It has a June 2013 date!  so this does NOT specifically address the more recent 2014 tests at all.

Also, who is Gary Wright?
   
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After a third read, I am having serious doubts about the validity of the Lugano report test methods, data gathering and conclusions regarding the Rossi E-CAT supposedly yielding COP>3.

Here are some of the key points of concern:

1) A COP > 3 should have allowed the input power to be reduced to near zero or at least a third of what it was and still maintain the 1400C, this is not the case, and even with the supposed COP>3, the temperature does not soar way beyond the 1400C provided by the 900 Watts input. Remember they are controlling input current , therefore power, and allowing final temperature to stabilize where it will .

2)We see that input power of 810 Watts produced 1260 C. Then power was then set to 900 Watts and temperature went to 1400 C. From this they observed by imaging and concluded that an extra 700 Watts were being released. But the input power and stabilized temperatures are not unreasonable for the extra 90 Watts increase in power input. A plot of the dummy device (input power vs. stabilized temperature) up to 1400C would have been a good comparison, but was not done.


3) The dummy test / calibration of imaging cameras was done at a much lower temperature, then assumed to be correct for the higher temperature. There was no comparison with a dummy test run at 1400 C. Where is the equivalent to table 7 using the dummy test?

4)Wattages are calculated based on imaging from various parts of the device, then the numbers are added together to get Wattages in excess of 2300. This, to me, is just wrong and the reason they were able to get the high COP numbers. Splitting the test chamber into all those zones, imaging and calculating convection and radiation losses for each zone in an attempt to derive wattage per zone is possibly introducing large errors. (see point 6)

5) The use of three phase power, 100 Amps at 7 to 9 volts (4 to 5 volts per phase) is just an overly complicated and lossy way to get 700 to 900 watts of input power into the target area, when they could have used thinner Inconel heating wire, with a higher resistance on a single phase setup operating directly off the line without the need for step down transformers etc. Their method creates a lot of heating in the wires and connections well beyond the target area because of the high amperes drawn, creates glowing wires well outside the target area, and allows for more imaging, tallying and possible obfuscation.

6) Stabilizing the system by controlling current input is the wrong approach, they should have been controlling final temperature, then they could have easily seen if there was excess heat by observing a drop in input power with fuel vs. without fuel as I have suggested. No need for thermal imaging and adding up of supposed wattages along various zones and parts of the device including leadwires. All the parts of the system have a variable loss to the environment based on temperature, the proof of the pudding is that it will require a certain input power to supply all those losses and maintain the core at the target temperature. A sudden drop of input power while maintaining target temperature would be proof positive of extra heat supplied by the fuel. This can be easily graphed against a dummy run under the same temperature target conditions.

I am open to comments and criticism of my observations, but I would have performed the test in a far more simple and straightforward manner as I outlined earlier.

I would like to  believe the burning of metals in a nuclear manner with some energy release is possible, but the Lugano report is to me unconvincing proof.
« Last Edit: 2014-10-14, 17:38:56 by ION »


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   Insightful analysis, ION. 
Quote
A sudden drop of input power while maintaining target temperature would be proof positive of extra heat supplied by the fuel. This can be easily graphed against a dummy run under the same temperature target conditions.

I am open to comments and criticism of my observations, but I would have performed the test in a far more simple and straightforward manner as I outlined earlier.

I agree.  The power measurement needs to be done better!  and frankly, you are the man to do it IMO -- with your background and expertise.

  What strikes me, is the isotopic shifts in Lithium and in Nickel.  These are hard to explain without some sort of nuclear reactions going on (LENR).  Iwamura independently sees similar effects (but he does not claim xs anomalous heat), Cesium + d --> Pr.  This reaction will release heat, but the rate is very low in the Iwamura experiments - which have been replicated and peer-review published BTW.
   
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   Insightful analysis, ION. 
I agree.  The power measurement needs to be done better!  and frankly, you are the man to do it IMO -- with your background and expertise.

  What strikes me, is the isotopic shifts in Lithium and in Nickel.  These are hard to explain without some sort of nuclear reactions going on (LENR).  Iwamura independently sees similar effects (but he does not claim xs anomalous heat), Cesium + d --> Pr.  This reaction will release heat, but the rate is very low in the Iwamura experiments - which have been replicated and peer-review published BTW.

I'm not disputing any of the nuclear effects as they are out of my area of expertise, only the thermal test procedure.

I'm very hopeful that we can get some positive effects in the thermal area with a better test procedure.


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  Again, I agree.
   
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