PopularFX
Home Help Search Login Register
Welcome,Guest. Please login or register.
OverUnity Research > Electrical / Electronic Theory and Learning Center > Joule Thief Circuits > Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments?
2024-05-05, 11:07:16
News: Forum TIP:
The SHOUT BOX deletes messages after 3 hours. It is NOT meant to have lengthy conversations in. Use the Chat feature instead.

Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ... 22
Author Topic: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments?  (Read 330380 times)
Topic Options img
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #100 on: 2011-01-11, 11:40:50 »
Group: Guest
PhysicsProf,

Observer brought my attention to the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiaxDJuw4-Q

Lasersaber has done much better than my 30 second lighting of 1 LED after removing the battery.  This answers the question you raised in our private email - is it possible to continuously light the LEDs after removing the battery.  He even lighted CFLs.

I shall now give the peak-to-peak COP phrase a new term - Tseung FLEET Comparison Index.  This will be absolutely clear that it is created and used by me to compare my many FLEET prototypes.

Hope the wait for the better oscilloscopes would not take too long.  Have you got Prototype D and the components package yet?  If possible, can you state the make and model of the better oscilloscopes.  We should be able to check the manuals on-line and see if they have the required functionality.  Thank you in advance.
   
img  wattsup
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #101 on: 2011-01-11, 13:19:58 »
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 520
@poynt99

Actually, the guy made some units and sent them to others to test, but in his neck of the woods, they are already convinced of the results otherwise why the hell would be make these devices and send them to all these guys.

So as an introduction, I think he should be allowed to "state his case" that he is convinced according to his best testing methods that these devices are OU or whatever.

I think people know the difference between someone coming on the forum to make outright and empty claims versus someone who has gone the preliminary distance and is now outsourcing to others to corroborate those claims.

I think guys get to know their equipment results after being able to compare so many build results and effects that when they see something that is so far out of the ordinary it will jump out at them and cry out COP > 1. We are all smart enough to know this is not a proven cry, but it is this one persons conviction of the fact.

But from that to going and modifying his post is not cool at all. You can go into that post and just add a standard disclaimer at the beginning of his post while leaving his post intact. But not one word should be changed in his actual post. The disclaimer is enough to warn readers while still leaving the persons post for all to read.

The other point of making threats to put him on read-only mode is again, not cool at all. Especially when the guy only has his second post on the forum and especially when we are already in the know of his intentions as being more then genuine.

wattsup
« Last Edit: 2011-01-11, 13:46:18 by wattsup »


---------------------------
http://etherimpress.com
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #102 on: 2011-01-11, 13:48:03 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3208
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
It seems that the Professor is the only individual thus far that understands the meaning of the following:

No one shall be permitted to make claims of OU or COP>1 at OUR, unless that claim is accompanied by substantiating evidence deemed by OUR to be sufficient in quantity, accurate, credible, and properly obtained, and which directly supports the said claim.

Folks, it means precisely what is stated. It is simple and clear, and requires no "interpretation".

Lawrence, you have chosen to use the buzzterm "COP", and I agree with you and the Professor that you should choose another more suitable term for comparing your builds and their performance. I suggest you leave "OU" and "COP>1" out of your statements until and if you are ready to officially make a claim.

Folks are only going to become frustrated and leave (or be set to "read only) if they can not grasp and accept the very simple objective concept above. It is not meant as an excuse to censor anyone. It is meant as a means to retain a certain level of integrity and objectivity at OUR, of which other forums are sorely lacking. If anyone finds this unsuitable, they are free to leave and go elsewhere.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  ion
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #103 on: 2011-01-11, 15:08:06 »
Group: Elite
Hero Member
******

Posts: 3537
It's turtles all the way down
For those who may have forgotten, EMDevices posted a rather interesting blocking oscillator with a tuned secondary on OU back in July 2008 "Mysterious Resonant Circuit"

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5228.0

I post as Vortex1 on that website. You can see the simulations by POYNT and the thermal testing provided by myself.

EM is with us and perhaps he would like to start a continuation of the topic on his bench, as that one died after 15 pages.

I suggest EM's is a variation of the common blocking oscillator which having been invented by many in the last 70 years is now re-invented by Mr. Tseung in it's most crude form.

Strange that all the worlds switchmode designers that strive for efficiency have missed this crude and inefficient implementation by Tseung that could have pushed their companies ahead of the competition??? 8)



---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #104 on: 2011-01-11, 15:49:02 »
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1578
Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-11, 11:40:50
Hope the wait for the better oscilloscopes would not take too long.
Have you tried the usb oscilloscope offerings of Hantek *(et alia, probably).

It is good to see yoou here, Lawrence, in an intelligent yob-free environment.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #105 on: 2011-01-11, 16:06:43 »
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2994
Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-11, 11:40:50
PhysicsProf,

Observer brought my attention to the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiaxDJuw4-Q

Lasersaber has done much better than my 30 second lighting of 1 LED after removing the battery.  This answers the question you raised in our private email - is it possible to continuously light the LEDs after removing the battery.  He even lighted CFLs.

I shall now give the peak-to-peak COP phrase a new term - Tseung FLEET Comparison Index.  This will be absolutely clear that it is created and used by me to compare my many FLEET prototypes.

Hope the wait for the better oscilloscopes would not take too long.  Have you got Prototype D and the components package yet?  If possible, can you state the make and model of the better oscilloscopes.  We should be able to check the manuals on-line and see if they have the required functionality.  Thank you in advance.

1.  Yes, I also was intrigued by Lasersaber's demonstration and video of the Joule Ringer -- http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jbLQATOjZhE

2.  A wise approach, Lawrence:  " a new term - Tseung FLEET Comparison Index.  This will be absolutely clear that it is created and used by me to compare my many FLEET prototypes.' "  Any objection, anyone?

3.  Your Prototype D arrived yesterday -- thank you.  I will let you know this evening or tomorrow am the types of oscilloscopes available...  Wife and I will be traveling today.

(Still no takers on my question regarding the long solenoid.)
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #106 on: 2011-01-11, 16:47:37 »
Group: Guest
An example of Tseung FLEET Comparison Index

Since PhysicsProf will take sometime to produce his results with the good oscilloscopes at the University, I am reproducing some early photos from the prototypes produced in Hong Kong in July 2010.

The top LHS picture is the Input Voltage screen capture.  The top curve showed the voltage across the battery.  Thus the waveform represented the actual Input Voltage.  Note that the waveform was NOT a flat DC.  The Joule Thief caused the pulsing shape.

The bottom curve showed the voltage across a 1 ohm resistor in the primary circuit.  Thus the waveform represented the Input Current (as V = I * R).  The Channel 1 and Channel 2 of this oscilloscope have common ground.  Thus there is no need to worry about the phase factor.

The middle curve showed the product of Channel 1 and Channel 2.  This represented the Instantaneous Power.  The Integration of this curve over a given time would give the Energy over that period.  (A good oscilloscope will provide that value without manual labor.)

The top RHS picture displayed only the Input Instantaneous Power Curve.  This is the curve we use to compare the Input and the Output Power.  

Similarly, the bottom two pictures represent the Output.  It was obvious to us that the Output Energy derivable from the lower RHS curve was much higher than the Input Energy derivable from the upper RHS curve.

Those interested in the exercise can do an “area comparison” and get a ratio of Output Energy over Input Energy for the same period.  That is the correct COP.  We know that the good oscilloscopes can provide that answer directly without the possibility of human error in the area comparison.

For a rough estimate, I used the Tseung FLEET Comparison Index (formally called COP peak-to-peak) to rate the capability of the prototype.  This particular one has a value of 13.25.

Please give the PhysicsProf time to get and use the good oscilloscopes to provide the conclusive results.  I hope that he will provide the results from the oscilloscopes before doing many other COP > 1 experiments such as thermal etc. Pictures, videos, screen shots and computer analysis results will be greatly appreciated.
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #107 on: 2011-01-11, 16:52:10 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3208
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: ION on 2011-01-11, 15:08:06
For those who may have forgotten, EMDevices posted a rather interesting blocking oscillator with a tuned secondary on OU back in July 2008 "Mysterious Resonant Circuit"

http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=5228.0

I post as Vortex1 on that website. You can see the simulations by POYNT and the thermal testing provided by myself.

EM is with us and perhaps he would like to start a continuation of the topic on his bench, as that one died after 15 pages.

I suggest EM's is a variation of the common blocking oscillator which having been invented by many in the last 70 years is now re-invented by Mr. Tseung in it's most crude form.

Strange that all the worlds switchmode designers that strive for efficiency have missed this crude and inefficient implementation by Tseung that could have pushed their companies ahead of the competition??? 8)



ION,

Yes, it's strange how these practical thoughts seem to cross so few minds. ???

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #108 on: 2011-01-11, 20:38:28 »
Group: Guest
Primitive Area Comparison.

The attached figure is a simple extraction of the Output and Input Instantaneous Power Curves and imported to paint.  The paint program was used in conjuction with Powerpoint to stretch and compare.  Note that the scales and center lines are matched.

Is the Output Power Waveform much larger than the Input Power Waveform?  Is so, does that imply COP > 1???

We can obviously wait for the accurate results calculated automatically by the good oscilloscopes from PhysicsProf.  

I believe that we are playing with resonance circuits here.  As many have commented, the frequency and waveforms from such circuit could vary just by moving the hand close to it.  More scientific methods include: changing the holes on the breadboard, changing length of the wires, changing electronic components etc.

Many competing devices will rise from the dead.  This is good for the many poor inventors who cannot afford good oscilloscopes.  Confirmation by PhysicsProf and other top research institutions will excite potential investors.  Post your devices now!

God helps those who help themselves.  Amen.
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #109 on: 2011-01-11, 21:47:00 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3208
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Lawrence,

One can not with confidence draw any sort of conclusion from the very low resolution time-compressed scope pictures you posted. It is primitive indeed, and unfortunately, does not tell us very much about the real input and output power levels.

Can you please draw a diagram of the test setup (including the current sense resistor), and where the oscilloscope probes are placed?

What is the make and model of the scope(s) you are using? Do they not have the capability to perform integration on the power traces?

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  vonwolf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #110 on: 2011-01-12, 00:28:59 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-11, 11:40:50
PhysicsProf,

Observer brought my attention to the following:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wiaxDJuw4-Q

Lasersaber has done much better than my 30 second lighting of 1 LED after removing the battery.  This answers the question you raised in our private email - is it possible to continuously light the LEDs after removing the battery.  He even lighted CFLs.

I shall now give the peak-to-peak COP phrase a new term - Tseung FLEET Comparison Index.  This will be absolutely clear that it is created and used by me to compare my many FLEET prototypes.

    You really have me confused with this one, Lasersaber's Joule Ringer is powered by a fully charged Cap I can't see how that compares to a 30 sec. rundown of 1 LED on your rigg

    AS for trying to change peak-to-peak COP to "Tseung FLEET Comparison Index" is just a way to get around Poynt99's rules and I think he'll see through that quickly but good luck anyway

  Pete
   
img  Allcanadian
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #111 on: 2011-01-12, 00:32:50 »
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2640
@Ion
Quote
Strange that all the worlds switchmode designers that strive for efficiency have missed this crude and inefficient implementation by Tseung that could have pushed their companies ahead of the competition?
I do not think it is so strange unless you believe these designers know everything, that is not only strange but crazy as well. Consider that in the last 50 years none of the best and brightest electrical engineers on this planet could figure out how to make a boost converter operate on an input voltage lower than the 0.7 threshhold voltage for transistors or as low as 0.3V for mosfet technology. Then one university student made all of the EE's look silly by inventing a simple boost converter that could operate down to 70mV input. Is that strange or what? how can a lone university student be more intelligent that every EE on the planet? Well, nobody told this person it was impossible so he just went ahead and did it, he approached the problem in a different way from his own perspective and he succeeded. Should we now say all the EE's are stupid? Certainly not but what we can say is that they did not address the fundamental problem from the right perspective---- a new perspective. This is called "invention" and ANYONE can do it no matter who they are, what they look like or how much education they have, everyone has the capacity to dream and to succeed.
You sound like a smart guy, maybe you can explain to me how I further reduced the boost converter input threshhold voltage into the 10-20mV range. Here is a hint -- you will not find it in any textbook.
Regards
AC
« Last Edit: 2011-01-12, 02:08:22 by allcanadian »


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #112 on: 2011-01-12, 01:13:23 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-11, 06:17:38
 As I await the better oscilloscopes (and tests may take a while), I have a question for all:

Consider a long solenoid with tight winding such that there is no detectable B [magnetic] field  outside of the solenoid near the middle (spot "A" call it), when a steady current is flowing in the wire.  Please-- correct me if this cannot be done.

There will be an axial B-field, a B-field inside the solenoid itself. 

Some seem to not like the term, "field" -- but I refer to that which is measurable using a Hall probe.  What else would you like to call it, if not "magnetic field B"?

Now place a test charge, an electron will do, at spot A -- and steadily increase the current in the winding.  This will generate a changing axial-B-field which will in turn generate an electric field.   
 Will B remain essentially zero at spot A?
Will said electron at spot A experience a force?  If so, why?



I think I know the problem with ltseung circuit data, calculations, assumptions.
However, I won't speak until the professor verify it with his scope.  One more thing I'd like to ask is that the main players of this forum to try your best to answer the Professor's question.  Consider this an exchange?
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #113 on: 2011-01-12, 03:42:27 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3947
tExB=qr
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-11, 06:17:38
As I await the better oscilloscopes (and tests may take a while), I have a question for all:

Consider a long solenoid with tight winding such that there is no detectable B [magnetic] field  outside of the solenoid near the middle (spot "A" call it), when a steady current is flowing in the wire.  Please-- correct me if this cannot be done.

There will be an axial B-field, a B-field inside the solenoid itself. 

Some seem to not like the term, "field" -- but I refer to that which is measurable using a Hall probe.  What else would you like to call it, if not "magnetic field B"?

Now place a test charge, an electron will do, at spot A -- and steadily increase the current in the winding.  This will generate a changing axial-B-field which will in turn generate an electric field.   
 Will B remain essentially zero at spot A?
Will said electron at spot A experience a force?  If so, why?



Will B remain essentially zero at spot A?

yes

Will said electron at spot A experience a force?  If so, why?

yes

There is an electric field between the opposite ends of the solenoid.  Your changing magnetic field adds an additional electric field, but the change is so slow that this is probably negligible.  You are probably referring to the A-Field rather than this electric field.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #114 on: 2011-01-12, 06:07:17 »
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2994
Thanks for taking time on this grumpy.

Quote
Will B remain essentially zero at spot A?

yes

We are in agreement.  The geometry of the long coil results in essentially zero magnetic field B outside the coil.

Quote
Will said electron at spot A experience a force?  If so, why?

yes

There is an electric field between the opposite ends of the solenoid.  Your changing magnetic field adds an additional electric field, but the change is so slow that this is probably negligible.  You are probably referring to the A-Field rather than this electric field.

AGreed, yes -- but not agreeing with your rationale.  The voltage which causes the current represents and electric field -- which is confined to the wire (inside), and will not affect an electron outside the coil.   Also, I did not say the change in the current had to be "slow", just that the current is increasing steadily in this thought experiment -- which could be done in real life.  A rapid increase in the current will result in a rapidly increasing B field, and a large E field outside the coil.

There will be a real electric field outside the coil, due to the changing magnetic field which however is confined effectively INSIDE the coil (that is, at point A just outside the coil, there is no measurable B field for a sufficiently long coil).  That is, a changing magnetic field is generating an electric field (around the coil is the direction of E in this case) -- even though at point A there is NO magnetic field detected!  

What I am trying to emphasize is that a changing magnetic field will generate an electric field even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.

  The physics texts that I've seen emphasize that a changing B field produces an electric field... but I would like to see the text that admits that his can happen even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #115 on: 2011-01-12, 07:00:03 »
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2994
Lawrence (and all) -- Today I borrowed from my physics department a Tektronix 2230 Digital Storage Oscilloscope for a long-term.  There are better oscilloscopes, but this one was readily available and I want to see what I can do with it.  I am not as familiar with this as with some others --  if anyone can explain how to do trace multiplication, that would be very helpful.
   
img  BEP
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #116 on: 2011-01-12, 07:15:39 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-12, 06:07:17
The physics texts that I've seen emphasize that a changing B field produces an electric field... but I would like to see the text that admits that his can happen even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.

I don't think it is happening outside the B field. The E field is created within area of the changing B field and radiates outward. Once radiating it doesn't need the B field to continue the created velocity. Of course, the radiating E field then creates a radial magnetic field (OOPS, that will start an argument. This is why I shy away from answering such questions  :D)
   
img  poynt99
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #117 on: 2011-01-12, 07:21:36 »

Group: Administrator
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3208
It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-12, 07:00:03
Lawrence (and all) -- Today I borrowed from my physics department a Tektronix 2230 Digital Storage Oscilloscope for a long-term.  There are better oscilloscopes, but this one was readily available and I want to see what I can do with it.  I am not as familiar with this as with some others --  if anyone can explain how to do trace multiplication, that would be very helpful.

Prof,

That's a good but ancient scope. Unfortunately, it does not have any real math functions such as multiplication nor integration. It has a relatively low record length (4k), so it's useful "bandwidth" for storage is quite limited.

This scope won't be very useful for determining COP I'm afraid.

.99


---------------------------
"Some scientists claim that hydrogen, because it is so plentiful, is the basic building block of the universe. I dispute that. I say there is more stupidity than hydrogen, and that is the basic building block of the universe." Frank Zappa
   
img  AllPhase
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #118 on: 2011-01-12, 12:41:56 »
Group: Guest
I think some here are making this too complex.  A scope is nice to view Frequency, Pulse Width & Waveshape, BUT it isn't needed to determine O/U.

Since passive carbon resitors don't lie, why not ask the nice Prof to:

1.  Use a carbon resistor in series with the battery to determine input power.
2.  Use a carbon resistor for a load to determine output power.
3.  Calculate the amount of O/U.  Simple & not much to it.

.
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #119 on: 2011-01-12, 13:05:38 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: poynt99 on 2011-01-12, 07:21:36
Prof,

That's a good but ancient scope. Unfortunately, it does not have any real math functions such as multiplication nor integration. It has a relatively low record length (4k), so it's useful "bandwidth" for storage is quite limited.

This scope won't be very useful for determining COP I'm afraid.

.99

Dear PhysicsProf,

I have to agree with poynt99 that the Tektronix 2230 DSO does not have the functionality needed to do a Conclusive Verification or confirmation.

If you look at:
http://shoppingmadeizzy.co.cc/E_Tektronix%202230%20Digital%20Storage%20Oscilloscope%20manual.html

A used one was bidding at US$17.33.  The manual was at US$24.99.

The functionality of multiplication and integration are not there.  Without such functionality, the determination of “ Energy = Integration of the Instantaneous Power over a given time period“ is not possible.  You can use it to view the waveform but it will not give you much more information.

Please try to borrow a good one even for a short period of a few days.  If you can get someone already familiar with the particular scope to help, it will greatly facilitate the Conclusive Verification.  Thank you in advance.

Lawrence
   
img  ltseung888
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #120 on: 2011-01-12, 13:12:35 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: AllPhase on 2011-01-12, 12:41:56
I think some here are making this too complex.  A scope is nice to view Frequency, Pulse Width & Waveshape, BUT it isn't needed to determine O/U.

Since passive carbon resitors don't lie, why not ask the nice Prof to:

1.  Use a carbon resistor in series with the battery to determine input power.
2.  Use a carbon resistor for a load to determine output power.
3.  Calculate the amount of O/U.  Simple & not much to it.

.



The Input and Output Voltages are not simple DC or AC.  Please see my earlier post for example of the waveform.
   
img  Paul-R
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #121 on: 2011-01-12, 13:32:07 »
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 1578
Quote from: ltseung888 on 2011-01-12, 13:12:35
The Input and Output Voltages are not simple DC or AC.  Please see my earlier post for example of the waveform.
As you say, determining power oot when the waveform is complex is difficult.

I remain convinced that the only way to convince others is to start with batteries at a known charge
level and end with the same at different charge levels. Then determine the charge (or discharge)
needed to get the batteries to the "before" state.
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #122 on: 2011-01-12, 13:53:20 »
Group: Guest
Grumpy  O0
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #123 on: 2011-01-12, 15:14:13 »

Group: Tinkerer
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 3947
tExB=qr
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-12, 06:07:17
Thanks for taking time on this grumpy.

We are in agreement.  The geometry of the long coil results in essentially zero magnetic field B outside the coil.

AGreed, yes -- but not agreeing with your rationale.  The voltage which causes the current represents and electric field -- which is confined to the wire (inside), and will not affect an electron outside the coil.   Also, I did not say the change in the current had to be "slow", just that the current is increasing steadily in this thought experiment -- which could be done in real life.  A rapid increase in the current will result in a rapidly increasing B field, and a large E field outside the coil.

There will be a real electric field outside the coil, due to the changing magnetic field which however is confined effectively INSIDE the coil (that is, at point A just outside the coil, there is no measurable B field for a sufficiently long coil).  That is, a changing magnetic field is generating an electric field (around the coil is the direction of E in this case) -- even though at point A there is NO magnetic field detected!  

What I am trying to emphasize is that a changing magnetic field will generate an electric field even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.

  The physics texts that I've seen emphasize that a changing B field produces an electric field... but I would like to see the text that admits that his can happen even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.

The electric field is probably "not" only inside the coil, but also outside it.  This was shown by Francis Nipher, Oleg Jefimenko, and Jacobs et al:

Jacobs:
http://www.physicsland.com/physicsland/Jacobs-Salazar-Nassar-AJP78,1432,December2010.pdf

Jefimenko's paper is attached.

(Nipher's work is on Google Books.)
http://books.google.com/books?id=Q_oLAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA32&dq=francis+nipher+inflow&hl=en&ei=_sItTY3CF4SdlgfJ9Yi9Cg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CCcQ6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

You thought experiment reminds me of the experiments that (AB Effect) showed the magnetic and electric vector potentials are "real", where toroidal coils were used to contain the magnetic field.  

EDIT:
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2011-01-12, 06:07:17
What I am trying to emphasize is that a changing magnetic field will generate an electric field even in a region of space in which the magnetic field is itself ZERO.[/b]

If the magnetic field is ZERO in this region, then perhaps something else is generating the electric field, and this something occurs when a magnetic field changes.  What could that be?

« Last Edit: 2011-01-12, 15:45:32 by Grumpy »
   
img  PhysicsProf
Re: Lawrence Tseung sent a Prototype to test... any comments? « Reply #124 on: 2011-01-12, 16:10:47 »
Group: Professor
Hero Member
*****

Posts: 2994
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011-01-12, 15:14:13
The electric field is probably "not" only inside the coil, but also outside it.
You thought experiments reminds me of the experiments that (AB Effect) showed the magnetic and electric vector potentials are "real", where toroidal coils were used to contain the magnetic field.  

Right.  And WW, I said a "Steadily" increasing current, which results in a constant E field.  

Quote
I would like to mention that moving electrons having mass have a de Broglie force.  Woudln't this also affect this electron?

Do you mean the deBroglie wave-length?  Or perhaps you mean the Zitterbewegung effect?  also very interesting.

What I wish to emphasize/speculate on -- is that there are certainly large, changing magnetic fields in local galactic space that will generate electric fields that we might tap into, extracting power.

Now about the oscilloscope -- looks like the Tek 2230 will not do the job.  It is what we came up with in the physics department, and it looks like I will have to go to the EE department at the university to get a better one. It would help a lot if you guys would give particular model numbers that I should look for -- a DSO that will do trace multiplication and integration would be nice!  Also, is there some kind of bitscope that hooks to a lap-top that will do these functions?


   
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 ... 22
« previous next »


 

Home Help Search Login Register
Theme © PopularFX | Based on PFX Ideas! | Scripts from iScript4u 2024-05-05, 11:07:16