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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils  (Read 365097 times)
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img  Aking.21
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #375 on: 2015-02-05, 01:11:40 »

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I first came across this video a few weeks ago and didn't understand it. Now I do. He is using  AIR COILS! - wound on a glass former. He also has a  coil around them. They are wound CW and CCW in parallel.
At first I thought it was just the old induction heater research, but it is not.

 It is bang on this topic. O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxqpa6mAFgI
« Last Edit: 2015-02-05, 07:02:13 by Aking.21 »


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Electrostatic induction: Put a 1KW charge on 1 plate of a  capacitor. What does the environment do to the 2nd  plate?
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #376 on: 2015-02-05, 01:14:10 »
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Quote from: partzman on 2015-02-04, 23:43:11
All,

The voltage measurement for the 10 ohm load resistor must be made differentially to be accurate.  I have attached a sim that approximately represents the circuitry and have included some math calcs in the plot window.  Notice the difference in "eout" and "eout2".  Eout is taken differentially and is 2.022v average. Eout2 is taken at node V(n003) and is 8.898 volts average.  Eout2 is not an accurate representation of the load voltage due to the DCR and inductance of L2 in this example.

The sim traces do not match the circuits of Cris and Itsu exactly due to differences in circuit parasitics, K factors, coil inductances, etc,  plus the core in this example is purely linear.
Conceptually however they are close.

I hope the attachment isn't too large!!!

partzman

@ALL

Oh, I get it, busy this morning, hard to pay attention.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-05, 04:01:46 by EMJunkie »
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #377 on: 2015-02-05, 01:29:28 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-05, 01:06:44
Yes, yes, was prepping info.

Please let me know if you need more info.

Chris, thanks for what you have supplied, as this sheds much light on the operation of the circuit.


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #378 on: 2015-02-05, 01:50:32 »
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Quote from: Aking.21 on 2015-02-05, 01:11:40
I first came across this video a few weeks ago and didn't understand it. Now I do. He is using to AIR COILS! - wound on a glass former. He also has a  coil around them. They are wound CW and CCW in parallel.
At first I thought it was just the old induction heater research, but it is not.

 It is bang on this topic. O0

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxqpa6mAFgI

Hey AKing.21,

Yes many hundreds of devices exhibit the same basic form of this Technology!

Nice find!  O0
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #379 on: 2015-02-05, 01:52:15 »
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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-05, 01:29:28
Chris, thanks for what you have supplied, as this sheds much light on the operation of the circuit.

I think its important to note, my input went down, when loaded, I am not sure if Itsu's also did?
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #380 on: 2015-02-05, 02:06:49 »

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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-04, 20:53:10
I wonder, All the spikes are missing from your Scope Shots of the output. Do you know why these are missing?
Maybe because Itsu was using a non-inductive resistor and you were using wire-wound ceramic resistor.

Also measuring, across an inductive resistor does not yield a waveform that is proportional to the current flowing through it.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-05, 03:05:33 by verpies »
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #381 on: 2015-02-05, 02:21:51 »
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Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-05, 02:06:49
Because Itsu is using a non-inductive resistor and you are using wire-wound ceramic resistor.

@ALL,

Verpies has pointed out something very important!

If no load is connected, then we have already seen that Melting Copper, Huge Sparks are readily visible at the Output Terminals! The Spikes are not from the Inductive Resistor! The Spikes are already there ready to jump the Spark Gap! On the Output Terminals!

[youtube]FqGjkqaTC7Y[/youtube]
   
img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #382 on: 2015-02-05, 08:24:22 »
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@ALL,

TK has kindly replicated the device and is seeing some of the effects we appear to be missing.

A 10 Ohm Resistor just might need to be changed now we have some devices working.
   
img  Itsu
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #383 on: 2015-02-05, 09:06:39 »

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Quote from: poynt99 on 2015-02-04, 23:15:49
Itsu,

You yourself said that the output power measurement should be made with the current through the load, and the voltage across it, agreed?

Measuring the voltage between the denoted probe point and ground is not directly across the load, therefore it must not be correct.

Why would one expect the waveforms to be equal in two very different probe configurations? If the spikes are gone when measuring across the resistor directly, then they must not have any bearing on the load.

Poynt99,  yes i agree,   it was more gut feeling logic, but if you look at it objectively, then you see that both measurements are totally different, hence the huge difference in result.

The 10 Ohm 10W wirewound resistor which i deliberate used to comply with the diagram is measuring 2.3uH @ 1Khz.
When moving the scope ground lead to the PS return, this measurement also then includes the primary, L3 secondary AND the MOSFET, so many mH's.


Regards  Itsu
   
img  T-1000
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #384 on: 2015-02-05, 09:10:32 »
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I would like to mention two things:

When isolating PS/FG/scopes from the ground you should run them on inverter from batteries or from UPS after disconnecting from wall mains socket. This will isolate any capacitive loops between circuit under test and ground.
The second thing with nanosecond pulse power measurements - if you can get very fast diodes like Shotky then rectify output to small capacitor and attach resistive load, the RMS value will be more real with what power out you can get from circuit.

Cheers!
   
img  verpies
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #385 on: 2015-02-05, 12:53:38 »

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Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-02-05, 09:10:32
When isolating PS/FG/scopes from the ground you should run them on inverter from batteries or from UPS after disconnecting from wall mains socket. This will isolate any capacitive loops between circuit under test and ground.
That is a valid concern but I think Itsu has measured his scope to have a minimal AC leakage to power prongs.   I think he had a peak at  ~70MHz but I would need to see the frequency sweep plot to judge it well.  Also, I think he measured AC leakage of only one of his scopes.

Quote from: T-1000 on 2015-02-05, 09:10:32
The second thing with nanosecond pulse power measurements - if you can get very fast diodes like Shotky then rectify output to small capacitor and attach resistive load, the RMS value will be more real with what power out you can get from circuit.
No, a diode feeding a cap does not yield an RMS value, it's more like a peak detector.  Just think about it, when the input voltage to such filter is less than the voltage in the cap then the diode does not conduct at all and no current flows.  In a real resistive load the current would flow regardless of voltage (>0).
Also Schottky diodes are very voltage limited.  It is hard to get them above 50V reverse blocking voltage unless you go to SiC devices.
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #386 on: 2015-02-05, 15:16:07 »
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It's turtles all the way down
We have basically two different circuits that are being compared because one uses a deflection transistor driven from a function generator, the other (Itsu's) uses a FET and a FET driver chip buffering the FG.

Note that the transistor version will hit a limit of maximum inductor current when driven from the FG because of the limited current gain of the deflection transistor. (8 to 10). BTW this is a very low gain power transistor with built in damper diode.

For a proper replication by all Chris needs to find the current output and note the voltage setting that he used on his FG and the output impedance of his FG. He admits that he is driving the transistor base directly from the FG.

This accounts for the current limit of the transistor, not a total shut off but holding the inductor at a certain current level due to restricted base drive and low gain of the transistor. see attached annotated scope shot

Besides proper power measurement there are some interesting aspects to the circuit configuration that I will expand on in a later post.

For now it is important that Chris's original scope shot is fully understood, and that his circuit is replicated as closely as possible. This means using the exact 2sD1555 deflection transistor with built in damper diode or the closest possible equivalent.

Use of a FET will give very different scope shots versus the low gain  high saturation voltage power deflection transistor. These differences must be grasped before a full understanding of the circuit operation is to be had.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-05, 18:56:30 by ION »


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img  Smudge
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #387 on: 2015-02-05, 15:36:53 »

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Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-05, 12:53:38
No, a diode feeding a cap does not yield an RMS value, it's more like a peak detector.  Just think about it, when the input voltage to such filter is less than the voltage in the cap then the diode does not conduct at all and no current flows.  In a real resistive load the current would flow regardless of voltage (>0).
Also Schottky diodes are very voltage limited.  It is hard to get them above 50V reverse blocking voltage unless you go to SiC devices.

T-1000 said a small cap, but why not use a large cap so that you get effectively a DC output with small ripple on it.  Then measure DC power into the load resistor with only small error.  That dispenses with the need for any pulse rms values.  For AC there is a rule of thumb for the load as seen on the AC side of the rectifier, like half the load resistor value for half-wave rectification and one third for full wave (I might have got that half and third wrong so don't quote me there).

Smudge
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #388 on: 2015-02-05, 15:44:29 »
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ION, I think I remember getting an almost identical waveform from a JT working down to under 1 volt from a battery, at a certain point when the battery charge became too low it did the same kind of thing. The transistor turn full on at first but after a short time it kinda turned half off, which caused a spike by partial discharge in my opinion, but the supply could still keep the transistor part on until the end of the driving signal pulse, then the coil discharged completely. This was no good as the transistor is not meant to work like that in that situation so I had found that the supply battery kind of "sagged" in voltage under load then everything balanced till the end of the driving pulse before the transistor turned right off. Of course with different transistors that will happen a bit different.

I'll try to find a scope shot, I think I might still have one, won't be easy to find.
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #389 on: 2015-02-05, 15:57:13 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: Farmhand on 2015-02-05, 15:44:29
ION, I think I remember getting an almost identical waveform from a JT working down to under 1 volt from a battery, at a certain point when the battery charge became too low it did the same kind of thing. The transistor turn full on at first but after a short time it kinda turned half off, which caused a spike by partial discharge in my opinion, but the supply could still keep the transistor part on until the end of the driving signal pulse, then the coil discharged completely. This was no good as the transistor is not meant to work like that in that situation so I had found that the supply battery kind of "sagged" in voltage under load then everything balanced till the end of the driving pulse before the transistor turned right off. Of course with different transistors that will happen a bit different.

I'll try to find a scope shot, I think I might still have one, won't be easy to find.

Yes Farmhand, it is wasteful of energy as the transistor is now operating in the linear mode instead of saturated condition.

On the plus side, the current limit will save the transistor from destruction if the inductance is too low for the driven frequency and causes the core to saturate.

It is very important to have enough inductance in the circuit so that the core does not saturate and run into this current limit condition, especially when a soft drive e.g. from a FG is used to drive a low gain transistor directly.

One other thing from the datasheet of the 2sD1555, the saturation voltage is rather poor for this transistor (5 volts) which you would expect from a high voltage transistor, however this is yet another mechanism for a local degeneration when the FG drive voltage is also limited.

But it is possible that these are the very necessary operating condition of EMJ's circuit that we must explore.


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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #390 on: 2015-02-05, 16:45:20 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
As mentioned by Chris, TinselKoala has a very interesting setup.
6.7V input, spark gaps, bright neon glows, into the kilo volts with the scope trace !
Seems he is using 1.7kHz, which I recall is where Grumage has seen some action with his signal generator.

Here's his video, uploaded today:
[youtube]smocfnCxwKM[/youtube]



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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #391 on: 2015-02-05, 17:24:43 »
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... .-.. .. -.. . .-.
Hopefully of use to further the frequency generator side, for those who may not have one.
I decided to look into a simple 555 timer square wave oscillator for the 1.7kHz input, shown on TK's video.

Used this calculator:
http://web.udl.es/usuaris/p7806757/555-calculadora/555%20Calculator.htm

And these figures returned a 56% Duty Cycle at 1.756kHz
R1 = 10K
R2 = 36K
C1 = 0.01uF ('103' orange ceramic)

A 50K pot could be put in place of R2, to vary the frequency within the 1.7kHz range.
Or, for more exact changes, a 33K resistor in series with a 5K pot.


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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #392 on: 2015-02-05, 18:59:11 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Still it seems no one is building the exact circuit using a 2sD1555 deflection transistor, not even TK.

Building a tiny high voltage generator with a FET and some coils is commonplace, I believe this circuit operates a bit differently.

If you think a FET will give the exact same core biasing factors during the "on time" and the same scope shots, you have not understood my prior posts.

Even the simulations are quite different.

Lets give EMJ the benefit of the doubt and do an exact replication, he has listed most of the parts required.

Gathering parts now for a bench test.
« Last Edit: 2015-02-05, 20:34:01 by ION »


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"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #393 on: 2015-02-05, 22:58:16 »

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Quote from: ION on 2015-02-05, 18:59:11
Lets give EMJ the benefit of the doubt and do an exact replication, he has listed most of the parts required.
Gathering parts now for a bench test.
How will you find the same core that he was using?
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #394 on: 2015-02-05, 23:10:58 »
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Quote from: Slider2732 on 2015-02-05, 17:24:43
Hopefully of use to further the frequency generator side, for those who may not have one.
I decided to look into a simple 555 timer square wave oscillator for the 1.7kHz input, shown on TK's video.

Used this calculator:
http://web.udl.es/usuaris/p7806757/555-calculadora/555%20Calculator.htm

And these figures returned a 56% Duty Cycle at 1.756kHz
R1 = 10K
R2 = 36K
C1 = 0.01uF ('103' orange ceramic)

A 50K pot could be put in place of R2, to vary the frequency within the 1.7kHz range.
Or, for more exact changes, a 33K resistor in series with a 5K pot.


Thank you slider!
I will try it until i am waithing for my audio amply.
 O0
   
img  ion
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #395 on: 2015-02-05, 23:26:12 »
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It's turtles all the way down
Quote from: verpies on 2015-02-05, 22:58:16
How will you find the same core that he was using?

He claims the core can be had removed from most TV flyback transformer, and most of these cores are similar in material type, generally changing a great deal in size only.


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img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #396 on: 2015-02-05, 23:29:47 »
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@ALL

Guys, I know there are some really smart guys here and over at OU.com

I am going to ask, for those interested, and now we have the "Measurement Rumble" out of the way, maybe we can move ahead.

I am very confident there is much more to this!

I hope we can all work together to move ahead.

Thanks to all who have posted in the prior posts, I agree, the guidelines are important!

This works with a Sine Wave Input on the Input Coil Also! It doesn't have to be Square Wave but more effects are visible with the Square Wave.

Please ask, Where is the Spike/Ringing coming from!

I feel this is coming from the "Bucking Coils"? No? This does not occur in different configurations is all.


« Last Edit: 2015-02-06, 00:21:23 by EMJunkie »
   
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Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #397 on: 2015-02-06, 01:54:36 »

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It's not as complicated as it may seem...
Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-05, 00:49:55
@Poynt99

Yeah, nice, a start to finding a solution.

Don't you think, this is and should be the most important thing to find the reason for before any OU can be achieved? I certainly do.

How can we know where to look if only know where half the Energy we dissipate is in fact going to? Or another way to look at this, we have an issue with accounting for energy between Point A and Point C! Where Point A is connected to B and then to C.

How can we just all of a sudden Loose half of it?

Take a pipe, three lengths, Water flows in one pipe, at the end, we see a "Y" Intersection, then we should be able to add the Water Volume out of both of the ends of the "Y" Intersection to get the total on the Input. 1/2 + 1/2 = 1. This is not what we are getting!

Chris,

I am uncertain why you still think that the output to 0V measurement is valid? It is not. There is no valid 3.3W output power measurement, and no missing power related to it.

The input power was measured at approximately 1.6W, and the output power dissipated in the load resistor is approximately 0.6W. So there is indeed 1W of missing power, and if one were to measure the power dissipated in the diode, and in the MOSFET itself, one would find that missing 1W. All the power is accounted for.


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img  EMJunkie
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #398 on: 2015-02-06, 03:44:26 »
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@Poynt99

I understand what you're saying. I just see it a different way.

At on time, on the Transistor, the Output Circuit is also part of the Input Circuit, Two junctions in a road that lead to the Zero Voltage Terminal.

This means, to me, that at on time, the Output Circuit is still part of the Input.

So the Zero Voltage Point is still valid as a reference point, at Transistor On.

EDIT: But I also understand why the "Differential" measurement must be performed.

I am happy to drop it anyway, I still see a ton of potential, even if others don't  :)
« Last Edit: 2015-02-06, 04:20:39 by EMJunkie »
   
img  Jeg
Re: Partnered Output Coils « Reply #399 on: 2015-02-06, 08:18:43 »
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Quote from: EMJunkie on 2015-02-05, 23:29:47
Where is the Spike/Ringing coming from!

I feel this is coming from the "Bucking Coils"? No? This does not occur in different configurations is all.

Dear Chris, all this ringing oscillations are due to the intrinsic capacitance and inductance of bucking coils themselves. If you trigger any coil, it will oscillate to this specific frequency which some times we call it natural frequency. By moving one coil in relation to the other and so by changing the distance between each other, we control this ringing and the best is to match it with a frequency which belongs to this specific coil length harmonic frequencies. This gives the highest rise. The trigger frequencies also has to belong to this same harmonic subs. Someone can calculate all this stuff from the begin if he knows what is the specific length of his coils. No problem if you miss a meter or so. At my yoke core setup i found out that when i am searching for the best trigger frequency through a pot, when i hit the right spots the ringing noise of my core becomes more intense.

Guys take care of yourselves because at high voltages it is not an innocent toy anymore. It zaps like a cap discharge is taking place.!!! It is not the same feeling like from a HV tv flyback for example.. :o  
« Last Edit: 2015-02-06, 09:13:25 by Jeg »
   
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