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img  forest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #100 on: 2012-10-23, 07:48:18 »
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Earth ground is full of negative electrons, it is a capacitor. When you displace charge and have inbalance you have energy and system is going to compensate it with current flow. Dolbear patent is all about this.It's the same Tesla used in large scale and Farmhand described correctly.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #101 on: 2012-10-23, 08:12:11 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-10-23, 02:01:14
...
That's why a single wire transmission line won't work well
...

It works but it is not a "single wire". There is always a terminal capacity that couples to the ground. Every conductor near other conductors constitute a capacitor. It's very easy to see it in a single wire experiment.

   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #102 on: 2012-10-23, 08:21:59 »
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Quote from: forest on 2012-10-23, 07:48:18
Earth ground is full of negative electrons, it is a capacitor.

Irrelevant statement due to the gauge invariance.

Quote
When you displace charge and have inbalance you have energy and system is going to compensate it with current flow.
...

I agree and that's why the fact that the earth is full of charges of whatever sign is not relevant. Only the relative position of charges of opposite sign, and their movement, is a question of energy.

   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #103 on: 2012-10-23, 08:45:30 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-23, 07:38:01
Not one experiment supports this idea.



As far as I can tell the experiment has not been properly done in full size with a distant receiver except by Tesla in private.
Can you show reference to some of these full sized experiments, which "don't" show evidence of Tesla observations ?
The term "Tesla's observations" meaning what he "actually" said and when considered in context.

I do not dispute the fact that there must be a return path for current. I think the drawings and such above explain it well enough.
Some people will dispute it for fun, so be it. I see no reason to argue about it forever. I don't think it defies any known boundaries of the natural world.
Things will do what they do regardless of what people think, or think they know, myself included. The proof is in the experiment as is the disproof.

It is well explained why the full sized apparatus is required and must be used as intended for this to work as Tesla describes.

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #104 on: 2012-10-23, 08:52:05 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-10-23, 08:45:30
...
Can you show reference to some of these full sized experiments, which "don't" show evidence of Tesla observations ?
...

Sophism. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_burden_of_evidence.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #105 on: 2012-10-23, 09:34:54 »
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When I say one wire I mean one wire, wire meaning a man made conductor. That is the accepted meaning I think.

Anyway here are some more pictures.

Single wire Earth return, This method is in use now. One wire two conductors
http://www.google.com/patents?id=p5g_AAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/Transmissionmodes003.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


Atmospheric conduction. No wires two conductors
http://www.google.com/patents?id=CLJIAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/Transmissionmodes002.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


Improved transmitter. No wires. However many conductors make no real difference. Only the transmitter is needed to create the ground currents.
http://www.google.com/patents?id=m7R9AAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract&zoom=4#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/Transmissionmodes004.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


And this is how Meyl does his demos but without being connected to the ground. Not much use except with low voltage.
Meyl uses a single wire transmission line, the number of conductors is irrelevant, but it won't do anything without a receiver. It is too piddly weak. and the frequency is far too high.
http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/Transmissionmodes001.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


Cheers
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #106 on: 2012-10-23, 09:45:43 »
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I'm not making any claims ex, you are, I am trying to explain what "I think" Tesla meant.

You claim it doesn't work. Prove it. Show the experiments that show that.

I don't claim it does definitely work, just that how Tesla claimed it worked is not how most people are debunking it, ie.

People claim radiation, or scalar waves and all sorts of rubbish. Why ? That is the real mystery to me.

You made the claim of it not working so prove it. If I made a claim that it definitely works show me and I'll retract it.

Thinly veiled way of calling me an ignoramus. Well done.   ;D  I'm impressed.

Cheers

Tesla was in the process of "trying" to prove these things but he ran out of money. Bummer.  :(

..
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #107 on: 2012-10-23, 10:16:10 »
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Single wire Earth return, is a fact and in use. One wire two conductors. It is a single "wire transmission line. Say it isn't.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_earth_return

Quote
Single wire earth return (SWER) or single wire ground return is a single-wire transmission line for supplying single-phase electrical power from an electrical grid to remote areas at low cost. Its distinguishing feature is that the earth (or sometimes a body of water) is used as the return path for the current, to avoid the need for a second wire (or neutral wire) to act as a return path. It is principally used for rural electrification, but also finds use for larger isolated loads such as water pumps, and light rail. Single wire earth return is also used for HVDC over submarine power cables.

http://ruralpower.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=11:swer-how-does-it-work&catid=2&Itemid=3

Quote
SWER is single wire earth return power distribution. Instead of using 3 wires to distribute electricity SWER uses one wire with the return path through the ground.

This is cheaper and easier to build and maintain. This site contains more details for the various swer components, and construction methods:

Cheers
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #108 on: 2012-10-23, 10:31:32 »
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ELF communication is done by electromagnetic waves which are not "radio" waves according to the wiki article.

The description of the receiver is one that is described by Tesla as one particular way to receive the energy.
The best way though I assume is with another arrangement just like the transmitter, (tuned to the vibration) with the Magnifying receiver.

The way described below to receive is accomplished by placing Earth connections at points about half the wavelength apart to attain the greatest difference in potential, no magnification, crude method. And probably a distraction technique.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Communication_with_submarines

Quote
Electromagnetic waves in the ELF frequency range (3–300 Hz) (see also SLF) can penetrate seawater to depths of hundreds of meters, allowing communication with submarines at their operating depths. Building an ELF transmitter is a formidable challenge, as they have to work at incredibly long wavelengths: The US Navy's system (called Seafarer) operated at 76 hertz,[1] the Soviet/Russian system (called ZEVS) at 82 hertz.[2] The latter corresponds to a wavelength of 3,658.5 kilometers. That is more than a quarter of the Earth's diameter. Obviously, the usual half-wavelength dipole antenna cannot be constructed, as it would spread across a large country.

Instead, one has to find an area with very low ground conductivity (a requirement opposite to usual radio transmitter sites), bury two huge electrodes in the ground at different sites, and then feed lines to them from a station in the middle, in the form of wires on poles. Although other separations are possible, 60 kilometers is the distance used by the ZEVS transmitter located near Murmansk. As the ground conductivity is poor, the current between the electrodes will penetrate deep into the Earth, essentially using a large part of the globe as an antenna. The antenna length in Republic, Michigan was approximately 52 kilometers (32 mi). The antenna is very inefficient. To drive it, a dedicated power plant seems to be required, although the power emitted as radiation is only a few watts. Its transmission can be received virtually anywhere. A station in Antarctica at 78°S 167°W was noticed when the Soviet Navy put their ZEVS antenna into operation.[2]
Due to the technical difficulty of building an ELF transmitter, only the US and the Russian Navy owned such systems. Until it was dismantled in late September 2004, the American Seafarer, later called Project ELF system (76 Hz) consisted of two antennas, located at Clam Lake, Wisconsin (since 1977) and at Republic, Michigan in the Upper Peninsula (since 1980). The Russian antenna (ZEVS, 82 Hz) is installed at the Kola Peninsula near Murmansk. It was noticed in the West in the early 1990s. The British Royal Navy once considered building their own transmitter at Glengarry Forest, Scotland, but the project was canceled.

Cheers
   
img  GibbsHelmholtz
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #109 on: 2012-10-23, 13:43:02 »
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Well, this is how I see it anyway.

We cannot use too high frequency
We cannot use too low frequency
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #110 on: 2012-10-23, 14:48:18 »

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tExB=qr
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #111 on: 2012-10-23, 15:33:37 »
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Gibbs I don't see how the two terminals on opposite sides of the planet could have displacement currents directly between them but
if in reality they did, it makes no matter to me. It's still wireless transmission with one conductor as I see it. That drawing is
an acceptable representation of the principal in my view, for what it's worth. Maybe a big capacitor around the Earth inductance.

Yes
Too high frequency dissipates too much energy at shallow depth (according to most)
and too low frequency won't transmit as much power.  O0

Cheers
   
img  wings
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #112 on: 2012-10-23, 15:39:59 »
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REACTIVE CURRENT TRANSFORMER - Rudolf Klavdievich Katargin et al

http://www.google.com/patents/US20120086413
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #113 on: 2012-10-23, 19:05:05 »
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I don't think the patent "application" has much merit. He is making the reactive power from 220- 240 v AC for the purpose of converting it to real power, seems like a pointless exercise.
The power induced in the receivers would not be reactive power I don't think, the reactive power would be in the transmitter coil if there was any but I don't see how. The coils are all coupled.

I don't think there would be any free energy or any point to doing that. Just my opinion from the little bit I read so far.

Cheers
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #114 on: 2012-10-24, 07:56:06 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-10-23, 09:34:54
When I say one wire I mean one wire, wire meaning a man made conductor. That is the accepted meaning I think.

"single wire" means only one wire, therefore "no return". If there is a return through the earth playing the role of a wire, then it is not a "single wire", it is an ordinary circuit obeying Kirchoff's laws.

Quote
...
Atmospheric conduction. No wires two conductors

Capacitive coupling between the terminal capacities.
Same thing as moving away the two plates of a capacitor connected to an inductance. The fact that the inductance is constituted of 2 inductances in series with their midpoint connected to the ground doesn't change anything. It looks like two circuits but there is only one. While the resonance is maintained, there is a significant displacement current between the two "plates". When the two "plates" of the resonant circuits are too far from each other, the ground is no more negligible and so constitutes also a capacitor "plate" towards which a part of the current is diverted.
There is not one point differing from Maxwell's equations or from ordinary engineering.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #115 on: 2012-10-24, 08:13:47 »
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Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-10-23, 10:31:32
ELF communication is done by electromagnetic waves which are not "radio" waves according to the wiki article.
...

I have invoked this point many times. How many times should I do it again? It's simple electromagnetism laws.
Calculate the wave length of ELF!
When you are at a distance less than a wavelength, the plane EM wave is not yet built or not completely built, of course it's not pure "radio" waves, you are in a bath constituted by E and B fields not linked by the Poynting vector, not propagating. And if you are at some wavelengths, there is a mix of EM waves and such fields.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #116 on: 2012-10-24, 08:39:09 »
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Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012-10-24, 07:56:06
"single wire" means only one wire, therefore "no return". If there is a return through the earth playing the role of a wire, then it is not a "single wire", it is an ordinary circuit obeying Kirchoff's laws.

Capacitive coupling between the terminal capacities.
Same thing as moving away the two plates of a capacitor connected to an inductance. The fact that the inductance is constituted of 2 inductances in series with their midpoint connected to the ground doesn't change anything. It looks like two circuits but there is only one. While the resonance is maintained, there is a significant displacement current between the two "plates". When the two "plates" of the resonant circuits are too far from each other, the ground is no more negligible and so constitutes also a capacitor "plate" towards which a part of the current is diverted.
There is not one point differing from Maxwell's equations or from ordinary engineering.



A wire is a man made conductor, don't try to say I'm saying what I'm not saying.

Wire equals man made wire. A conductor is anything that will conduct.

Wireless means no man made wires. Which is intended to cut infrastructure maintenance.

Displacement current is not conducted in a wire or a conductor because it isn't conducted as far as I can tell.

The atmospheric wireless transmission was designed to create and use a conducting path in the ionosphere not displacement currents, not a wire, a conducting path.

Bottom line is we disagree. I make no real claims except that What people say Tesla said is not what Tesla said most of the time.

And Show me where I said there was anything but electromagnetic waves ! Don't twist my words.

I'll say it again I am not saying the latest transmitter actually worked. I am saying many people are twisting Tesla's words to suit their own agenda's or beliefs.

You on the other hand are claiming it does not work. Prove it with experiment. Tesla claimed it worked not me. He is dead he cannot prove anything.

If you insist it doesn't work well then good for you. Fact is ELF communications can be picked up anywhere on Earth. and is wireless, no wires, only natural medium
and it's not radio waves or radiation, I'm not a radio engineer or other wise qualified. But I can see ELF communication has no wires and is not radiation or radio waves
those are the main points.

Then I ask anybody again, where is the words from Tesla claiming these were free energy devices. So many people claim he wanted to transmit free energy to the world at no cost
to anyone, which is a complete joke.

So to sum up ELF transmissions use no man made wires (wireless) and can be received anywhere on Earth. I don't dispute the displacement currents.
People can attribute whatever laws they like to that but I think that is the reality.

Cheers

P.S.  Wire= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wire
conductor= http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrical_conductor

..
« Last Edit: 2012-10-24, 09:06:02 by Farmhand »
   
img  Grumpy
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #117 on: 2012-10-24, 15:14:10 »

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tExB=qr
does a changing electric field create a magnetic field?

Can a changing electric field transfer energy?
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #118 on: 2012-10-24, 17:28:44 »

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Exnihiloest makes a pertinent point regarding ELF
radiation construct:  the near field is composed
of electric and magnetic fields which are not yet
phase linked into the radiant wave.  The near
field is unique in this respect.

It is possible to sythesize ELF waves in the
ionosphere itself by unorthodox means:

ELF/VLF Generation



---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #119 on: 2012-10-24, 17:47:41 »
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Quote from: Dumped on 2012-10-24, 17:28:44
Exnihiloest makes a pertinent point regarding ELF
radiation construct:  the near field is composed
of electric and magnetic fields which are not yet
phase linked into the radiant wave.  The near
field is unique in this respect.

It is possible to sythesize ELF waves in the
ionosphere itself by unorthodox means:

ELF/VLF Generation



Yes that may be true, I don't think I disputed that.

My main points are that wireless means no man made wires, and ELF waves can be tapped for energy anywhere on Earth.
The very fact that the military transmitter work is proof that Tesla's system could also work the way he describes, maybe not as well as he claimed.
But the actual efficiency to me is irrelevant and I think without testing Tesla's system Tesla's way, which the military do not do, "publicly" anyway.

There are VLF transmitters for submarine communications as well. Which can operate at below 14 kHz. Of course what we are told is likely only part of the story.

I think the subs use "towed antenna arrays" and such things. I doubt they would come out and say it was Tesla's idea but much of it is based on his findings, in my opinion.

When underwater subs are completely surrounded by a conductor. The military can't build a big tower like Tesla designed because people would see it and know Tesla was at least part right. So they use rings of wires, like some coilers do for a top capacitance.

Quote
The design had an output of 2 million watts in the frequency range 14-18.5 kilocycles without corona and could be operated at lower frequencies at a lower efficiency. All circuits were duplicated for reliability and operational security. Six salt water wells provided cooling for the VLF Transmitter and the Power Plant. Two Helix Coils (houses) matched the output of the transmitter to the aerial array.

http://www.environment.gov.au/cgi-bin/ahdb/search.pl?mode=place_detail&place_id=103552

Harold Holt was one of our prime ministers, he went missing in 1967. It is rumored he met with foul play from submarine frogmen. The facility is named after him.  C.C
   
img  muDped
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #120 on: 2012-10-24, 18:55:37 »

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The history of submarine communications radio systems
is a fascinating study.  Here are some links which may
keep viewers occupied for several hours:

Naval Radio Station Haiku

American Marconi Foundation downloads

OMEGA Navigation System

Wireless Giant of the Pacific

Haiku Stairs

Very Low Frequency

Stanford VLF Group

More on HAARP and VLF


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #121 on: 2012-10-25, 07:53:42 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Farmhand on 2012-10-24, 08:39:09
...
The atmospheric wireless transmission was designed to create and use a conducting path in the ionosphere not displacement currents, not a wire, a conducting path.
...

You are saying here what was expected but has never been demonstrated. A conducting path is either looped otherwise the current don't flow, or it radiates (antennae) and even in this case, there are displacement currents around the antenna. This is trivial.

All experiments with near coupled resonant circuits are in agreement with Maxwell's equations.
I don't see the interest to endlessly speak about fuzzy "atmospheric wireless transmissions" which would be neither near fields nor EM waves, when there is not the least beginning of the least experimental evidence. Or show us which experiment wouldn't work according to classical electromagnetism.
   
img  exnihiloest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #122 on: 2012-10-25, 08:00:06 »
Group: Guest
Quote from: Dumped on 2012-10-24, 18:55:37
The history of submarine communications radio systems is a fascinating study.  Here are some links which may keep viewers occupied for several hours:

Naval Radio Station Haiku

American Marconi Foundation downloads

OMEGA Navigation System

Wireless Giant of the Pacific

Haiku Stairs

Very Low Frequency

Stanford VLF Group

More on HAARP and VLF


I agree. It's interesting because there is not only the question of fields/waves production and detection but also this one of the propagation or interaction with the earth (atmosphere + subsoil + ocean + interface soil/air...).
   
img  Farmhand
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #123 on: 2012-10-25, 08:47:32 »
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Many strange things are witnessed in Australia.

We cannot expect to be told everything because of security. However we can expect not to be told a lot.

Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Defence_Satellite_Communications_Station

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/pinegap.htm

Strange video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ayyj1pYjuD4

http://ellisctaylor.homestead.com/brightskies.html

Go to these co- ordinates in Google Earth, it looks to me like a large circular ring of supports to hold a ring of wires. I have seen a better photo but can't find it. Note the strange rippling of the ground around it, which you'll need to zoom in to see. I will post a close up any one wants one who doesn't have google Earth. This one in the picture is at Exmouth. There are facilities in a number of places in WA. And also the Pine Gap facility. I don't think they have been twiddling their thumbs at these places. They have serious intent and as much money as they need. Billions. If they need more money they just get their RB friends to print some, then our money becomes less valuable. It cost's them nothing, we pay, you and I and everyone who uses money. Much of it is Tesla Tech in my opinion.
This facility is only 6 meters above sea level so it is basically Grounded directly to the Ocean.

http://i227.photobucket.com/albums/dd168/Toey1/ELF.jpg
Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter


People will have to do their research and join the dots.

Quote
Tower zero is encased in wood/asbestos sheeting to form a very high enclosed oblong box, it has a two man elevator running up the inside of the tower - the top inner aerial shape is surrounded by a larger enclosed box.

The aerial array utilised enormous quantities of copper tube and wire "ground counterpoise" arrays buried in the ground under the entire complex.

Access into the hill side tunnel opening takes one into a large (at least three story) underground section at the base of Tower Zero. Here is something like the innards of a giant "transistor radio" with a huge heavy duty copper wire coil some 50 feet high and 15 feet in diameter - all supported on hard wood (Jarrah) frames fixed with wooden (Jarrah) nuts and bolts !!! Sections are lined with stainless steel sheeting. There may be further and deeper sections under the copper coil which were not seen by this witness.

There is a large power station (possibly running on gas from bore holes into a nearby large natural gas reservoir).

Although officially recently handed over by the US Navy to Australian Navy control the base still has many US "consultants" who live in the nearby town of Exmouth.  The Jarrah fittings and copper coil in Tower Zero were installed in 1968, after the main building contractor teams had left the facility.

Supposedly this Exmouth Tx site is transmitting vlf or elf E/M radio messages to submarines. However this eyewitness description of the underground wooden frame and giant coil is a dead give away. It perfectly describes major elements of Tesla's Wardenclyffe, Long Island, and the earlier Colorado Springs research versions, Magnifying Energy Transmitters. The wooden construction is required to handle very high voltages and very high frequencies (possibly as high as microwave band frequencies) by containing the induced coil electro-static wave from discharge to ground - it is NOT needed to handle very low frequencies (vlf), or extremely low frequencies (elf).  

Tesla claimed in 1908 that he could hit any antipodean planetary city with an enormous E/M energy pulse delivered in micro seconds that would "create an explosion equivalent to more than the power of  the extant World navy's combined Dreadnought Battleship broadsides" (i.e. a huge force similar to that of a nuclear explosion) from just such a device.
« Last Edit: 2012-10-25, 09:19:42 by Farmhand »
   
img  forest
Re: Tesla's Magnifying Transmitter « Reply #124 on: 2012-10-25, 12:12:59 »
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