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Author Topic: Naudin's Gegene  (Read 204804 times)
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Thanks are due to moderators for cleariing the ordure out of the Aegean Stables.
I doubt that even Hercules would have been up for that.

I see three tasks:

1. Use multiple secondary BPCs, placed one on  top of each other.

2. Put a secondary either side of the primary.This means dismantling the cooker, of course.

3. Check whether we should be ensuring that the secondary circuits are resonating.
   
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I think that the only task (now) would be to check Naudin's measurement with the same setup.
The problem is that this has been done and at my knowledge, nobody else than him have measured OU with an induction cooker.
So for the OU effect to appear, it's to be concluded that the experimenter must be named "Jean-Louis Naudin". This is a rather difficult parameter to set by others for the experiment...   :)

   
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I think that the only task (now) would be to check Naudin's measurement with the same setup.
The problem is that this has been done and at my knowledge, nobody else than him have measured OU with an induction cooker.
So for the OU effect to appear, it's to be concluded that the experimenter must be named "Jean-Louis Naudin". This is a rather difficult parameter to set by others for the experiment...   :)


No wait-there is another. Romero uk.
Might be worth a look at his video.He is using a GTI to put power back into the cook top,as well as running a heap of lights.Now i paused the video at one point to see the two watt meter readings.In this time frame i see the grid supply watt meter reading 777.7 watts,and the watt meter that is conected to the cook top after the return power from the GTI reading 892.8 watt's.So now im asking myself,where is the extra 115.1 watts comeing from?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8_zj4cRXYk
   
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So now im asking myself,where is the extra 115.1 watts coming from?
The usual, probably.

Since Jean-Louis appears incommunicando, Ex is right. All we can do is duplicate
the experiments, the kettle setup being, in my view, the best.

I am preoccupied with making BPCs out of the primary wire from MOTs. It is
as cheap as chips, and very nice quality. (It may overheat, but I'll jump that
fence if it comes).
« Last Edit: 2013-03-26, 12:24:01 by Paul-R »
   
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No wait-there is another. Romero uk.
...

Seriously?  C.C
Naudin doubled the input power. Here we see around 793W in, 930W out. We are far from having two experiments with concordant results. The input/output difference here is not beyond the experimental error: did you ever see the output from a cheap inverter? The signal is not sine, it's between sine and square often with an irregular shape.
And obviously the output wattmeter is not RMS nor it is designed to handle the high frequency components of the output signal.

Romero Uk announces at the begining: "I'm not trying to prove anything". On this point, he is right: not only he didn't prove anything but the way he made the experiment, with inappropriate equipments, is misleading.

   
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Seriously?  C.C
Naudin doubled the input power. Here we see around 793W in, 930W out.


Gegene:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm

Which of Naudin's "Test #" are you referrring to ?
   
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And obviously the output wattmeter is not RMS nor it is designed to handle the high frequency components of the output signal.


This is something I come across often. People fail to realise that standard multi-meters - ammeters, voltmeters, power meters, etc - are designed around measuring mains AC 50/60Hz sine waves and not all manor of high frequency signals. It is no wonder we see so many 'unusual' and 'spurious' results. And this will always be the case until people understand and recognise the limitations of their test gear. 
   
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Ex & Farrah
I fail to see where you are finding these high frequencie's from?
Romero is comeing from the coil,through a FWBR and a smoothing cap then to a Grid Tie Inverter.A normal inverter dose have a rugged wave form,but i thought grid tie inverters were suppose to match the ac wave form from the grid input at 50 or 60 Htz.
So where might this high frequency you are talking about be comeing from?,as at the frequency that cook top is running at-there would be very little if any ripple across the cap.
   
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Hi Tinman, I might have piped up out of term here as I find this issue cropping up all the time with folks that pulse electrolysers at high frequencies, so if this is not the case here, then please just ignore me. Tho' I'm sure Ex will elaborate if need be.
   
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There is a principle which is a bar against all information, which is a proof against all argument, and which cannot fail to keep a man [or a woman ] in everlasting ignorance – that principle is condemnation before investigation.


   

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There are other principles at work here as
well.  ;)

As an electronic device, the Induction Cooker
is not really unique.  It makes use of the well
established principles of LC resonance and
near field loading of a Tank to induce eddy
currents into metallic surfaces.

It is power factor enhanced and therefore
produces a line modulated RF envelope at the
desired frequency of operation.

Using it as a source of input power to an air
coupled secondary does verify the principles
of induction and transformation.

What is truly puzzling though is how the principle
of excess energy or overunity may be thought to
exist and manifest in this case.

Where true excess energy or overunity has been
found to manifest the output of the device is
hundreds of times greater than any input.  What
is nearly impossible to comprehend is that certain
of the devices output electrical energy with no
apparent or visible input at all.

Where are these devices one may ask?  They're
presently carefully guarded secrets in dark places.
Naudin's Gegene surely isn't one of them...

This is not to say that experimenting with Induction
Cookers is a dead end project;  all experimentation
is potentially beneficial and enlightening even when
the results are disappointing.


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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Gegene:
http://jnaudin.free.fr/gegene/indexen.htm

Which of Naudin's "Test #" are you referrring to ?

See reply #71

Ex & Farrah
I fail to see where you are finding these high frequencie's from?

1) the coupling with the flat coil is at around 20 Khz thus the output current is at the same frequency
2) an inverter uses also frequencies at tens of Khz for operating.

Quote
Romero is comeing from the coil,through a FWBR and a smoothing cap then to a Grid Tie Inverter.A normal inverter dose have a rugged wave form,but i thought grid tie inverters were suppose to match the ac wave form from the grid input at 50 or 60 Htz.
...

If they match them at only 17%, it's not surprising that the output exceeds the input by 17% ( it's just an image, the percentage of non linearities and high frequencies being not directly related to the power).

Where can we see the waveforms of the Romeo UK signals? Where is his schematics? What is his measurement protocol? What are the specifications of the wattmeters? A youtube video is completely useless in matter of technical report.


   
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...
[the Induction Cooker]  makes use of the well established principles of LC resonance
...

No, it doesn't.

   
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1) the coupling with the flat coil is at around 20 Khz thus the output current is at the same frequency
2) an inverter uses also frequencies at tens of Khz for operating.

If they match them at only 17%, it's not surprising that the output exceeds the input by 17% ( it's just an image, the percentage of non linearities and high frequencies being not directly related to the power).

Where can we see the waveforms of the Romeo UK signals? Where is his schematics? What is his measurement protocol? What are the specifications of the wattmeters? A youtube video is completely useless in matter of technical report.


This is exactly why we need Ex around here.

I for one always value his opinion... and should I become blinkered and need my eyes opening on one of my projects, then I can think of no one better than Ex to tear it apart.   :)
   
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See reply #71

1) the coupling with the flat coil is at around 20 Khz thus the output current is at the same frequency
2) an inverter uses also frequencies at tens of Khz for operating.






1)and is sent through a FWBR and smoothing cap.At 20Khz the cap wouldnt have to be to big to smooth the DC ripple)_maybe 40 000uf.
2) and is converted to a 50 or 60hz output-that is what they are designed to do.

 Grid tie inverters or synchronous inverters have an on board computor that align the phase output with that of the grid's ac (unlike a standard inverter).The phase has to be within 1% of the grids phase-this is law.A good quality GTI also has a fixed power factor,so as the voltage and current perfectly lined up with the grid supply voltage and current.

So this being the case,i dont think the watt meters would be very far off reading true watt's.
I guess the best thing would be to place a scope across the neutral and active,just befor the second watt meter to make sure it is recieving a steady AC wave at the correct voltage.
   

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Quote from: exnihiloest
Quote from: Dumped
...
[the Induction Cooker]  makes use of the well established principles of LC resonance
...

No, it doesn't.

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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See reply #71


In reply #71, you say: "To handle properly high frequencies, high voltages and high currents is beyond the reach of a
hobbyist. This guy should learn electronics".

The alternative is to stick to calorimetric tests, his kettle. You can't argue with  a bulk of water
strating at T1 degrees and ending up at T2 degrees.
   
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In reply #71, you say: "To handle properly high frequencies, high voltages and high currents is beyond the reach of a
hobbyist. This guy should learn electronics".

The alternative is to stick to calorimetric tests, his kettle. You can't argue with  a bulk of water
strating at T1 degrees and ending up at T2 degrees.

Agreed.
   
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In reply #71, you say: "To handle properly high frequencies, high voltages and high currents is beyond the reach of a
hobbyist. This guy should learn electronics".

The alternative is to stick to calorimetric tests, his kettle. You can't argue with  a bulk of water
strating at T1 degrees and ending up at T2 degrees.

The calorimeter is an alternative, provided that the measurement is made twice, one using the output from the equipement to test, the other one with a controlled dc voltage/current. If the possible OU effect is strong and shows a real big difference, the test can be conclusive (otherwise it is even more complicated for a hobbyist who likely doesn't know thermodynamics better than electromagnetism).
Other simple alternatives are either a thermal wattmeter or an oscilloscope working at hundreds Msamples/s and with computing features, but both are expensive.

   
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Quote from: exnihiloest
Quote from: Dumped
...
[the Induction Cooker]  makes use of the well established principles of LC resonance
...

No, it doesn't.

Perhaps you'd care to elaborate?


There is nothing to elaborate.
The electronics is known. The typical schematics of induction heaters have already been presented here and you can get them every where on Internet.
Where do you see "resonance"?!

   
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This is exactly why we need Ex around here.

I for one always value his opinion... and should I become blinkered and need my eyes opening on one of my projects, then I can think of no one better than Ex to tear it apart.   :)

Thanks Farrah. It's not my goal, but I don't see other ways than doubts to be sure of a free lunch that the mankind is searching unsuccessfully for milleniums. The distant and also recent past give us good reasons to be skeptic. From what I see from you, you share equally this practice  O0.

   
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Where do you see "resonance"?

Resonace is an issue wherever a circuit containg L or C is driven by an oscillating source.

On the primary side, the driver is 10khz or thereabouts, and the pancake coil will have
an amount of L, maybe not much. Tesla says that there will be some C.

On the secondary side, we have the same basic conditions.

Jean-Louis says that the load must be strictly resistive. Possibly this is to avoid
making the situation more difficult to tune.
   

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Quote from: exnihiloest
Where do you see "resonance"?!

Examine the "Final" of the device.

Does not the RF PA utilize LC resonance
to "filter" the output to assure signal
purity while enhancing efficiency?

Do you see it? (Resonant Conversion)

Reference #1

Reference #2

- - - - - - -

ION,

You're welcome! (Following post)
« Last Edit: 2013-03-28, 02:07:11 by Dumped »


---------------------------
For there is nothing hidden that will not be disclosed, and nothing concealed that will not be known or brought out into the open.
   
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It's turtles all the way down
Two excellent papers Dumped.

I read them with interest.

Thanks for digging them up.


---------------------------
"Secrecy, secret societies and secret groups have always been repugnant to a free and open society"......John F Kennedy
   
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Resonace is an issue wherever a circuit containg L or C is driven by an oscillating source.
...

The presence of L or C in a circuit doesn't imply resonance. A diode bridge following a transformer and filtered with a capacitor is the obvious example of L/C and no resonance.

"Resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate with greater amplitude at some frequencies than at others. Frequencies at which the response amplitude is a relative maximum are known as the system's resonant frequencies, or resonance frequencies"

This means an accumulation of energy at each period over a big number of periods, depending on the Q factor.

A switching circuit like that of an induction heater or an inverter is the opposite. It reaches almost instantly its "cruising speed". The fact that there is not one single frequency otherwise the signal would be a pure sine is just another clue that there is no resonance. All these facts are well known and understood even by any electronics technicians.

In matter of electronics, it is not enough to chant the magic word "resonance, resonance" for it to appear!


   
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