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Author Topic: Grenade coil type systems  (Read 22151 times)

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Using a bigger compass to measure the magnetic fields inside the gap shows a smoother path that the needle follows, thus easier to get to the 90 degree point.
Yes, if you look at the sims in this post then the 90° flux exists even far away from the axis (unfortunately, less so in case of the 0° flux).

This 90 degree point is where i understand the both magnetic fields are equal and are squeezed perpendicular to the axis of the device and happens around 3.5A of current through 530 turns coil
Yes, squeezed but not cancelled.

it probably will, but i guess verpies is trying to determine the magnetic field produced by the 4 magnets by using the ampere-turns value needed by the coil to nullify the magnetic field produced by the 4 magnets.
Yes, however not to nullify but oppose it with equal strength as magnetic flux cannot be destroyed.

Notice that the 3.5A of current flowing in that coil wound over that ferrite, does not create a magnetic field which is equal to the field generated by the magnets, but a weaker one attenuated by the ~10cm distance to the magnets (the ferrite cores make this attenuation smaller).
If you swapped the magnets with their adjacent ferrite cores, so that magnets were situated directly at the gap, then the current needed to generate an equal but opposing flux would be much greater.

With 3.5A through 530 turns we are talking about 1855Amp-turns.
Yes, and that also means that if we wanted to oppose that flux with a fast 5-turn coil then we would need to put 371A through it.

However that would give us only a 45° rotation, because in the relaxed state the flux in the gap is not parallel to the axis (it is at ~45°).

Please experiment with reversed DC polarity to see how much current it takes to make that flux in the gap parallel to the axis.
Additionally, you may add permanent magnets to the other end of the device (in attracting mode) to make that flux in the gap parallel (0°) with the aid of the current in coil or without.
   
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Verpies,


Once you are able to vary the flux orientation in the "fuel" at the desired depth and bandwidth, what method or arrangement will be used to detect the sought after release of energy?

PW

   

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@PW: One turn shielded winding over the ring connected to an oscilloscope, triggered to detect high di/dt spikes AFTER the stimulating pulse ends. These current spikes may also generate acoustic phenomena.

Another evidence would be electrostatic charge accumulating on the ring (if no path to ground is provided).
   

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Yes, if you look at the sims in this post then the 90° flux exists even far away from the axis (unfortunately, less so in case of the 0° flux).
Yes, squeezed but not cancelled.
Yes, however not to nullify but oppose it with equal strength as magnetic flux cannot be destroyed.

Notice that the 3.5A of current flowing in that coil wound over that ferrite, does not create a magnetic field which is equal to the field generated by the magnets, but a weaker one attenuated by the ~10cm distance to the magnets (the ferrite cores make this attenuation smaller).
If you swapped the magnets with their adjacent ferrite cores, so that magnets were situated directly at the gap, then the current needed to generate an equal but opposing flux would be much greater.
Yes, and that also means that if we wanted to oppose that flux with a fast 5-turn coil then we would need to put 371A through it.

However that would give us only a 45° rotation, because in the relaxed state the flux in the gap is not parallel to the axis (it is at ~45°).

Please experiment with reversed DC polarity to see how much current it takes to make that flux in the gap parallel to the axis.
Additionally, you may add permanent magnets to the other end of the device (in attracting mode) to make that flux in the gap parallel (0°) with the aid of the current in coil or without.


Thanks for the information, i will do further experiments, but for my understanding, see below picture is this not how the magnetic field of the ring magnets will be distributed?
See also https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:VFPt_ringmagnet.svg

If so, will it not be obviously that the compass in the green position will always be pointing to the edge of the nearest soft core thus at 45° and that we will never be able to show it pointing parallel (0°) without moving it to the blue position (being in the center of the Al ring)?


« Last Edit: 2023-10-18, 15:20:52 by Itsu »
   

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Thanks for the information, i will do further experiments, but for my understanding, see below picture is this not how the magnetic field of the ring magnets will be distributed?
Yes and even worse than that, the flux will exit the ferrite along its length and will not be parallel nor confined inside the ferrite as you had drawn.

However the situation will change when aiding flux is generated by that 530t coil.

...we will never be able to show it pointing parallel (0°) without moving it to the blue position (being in the center of the Al ring)?
Yes and that means the Al ring should be absent for these measurements.
   

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Buy me a cigar
Not bad, for a first attempt….

This is a test sample of ZAMAK or MAZAK if you’re an old fogey like me. A simple, gravity die casting of Zinc alloy to test the dies. Hopefully you can see the 2/1000” Shim Steel that was used to create the air gap. I used Lamp Black to ensure it didn’t stick to the casting.

The casting measures 50 mm OD by 25.6 mm ID 6 mm thick.

Hopefully I will manage to find the lump of pure Bismuth tucked away in the recesses of the workshop tomorrow?

Cheers Grum.


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Yes and even worse than that, the flux will exit the ferrite along its length and will not be parallel nor confined inside the ferrite as you had drawn.

However the situation will change when aiding flux is generated by that 530t coil.
Yes and that means the Al ring should be absent for these measurements.

I' m very pleased that this approach gives us at the moment a better indication what happens with the magnetic fields.

Please continue to add more basic explanations as you are doing lately. Things that matters so people like me and Nickz understand the concept.
I m not saying I don't understand whats going on but what your posting the last days gives me a better understanding off the complete concept.
I know you and Itsu are way ahead of the curve, my goal here is to get it better digestable.
So keep it going proff. I think your on the right path and you know it just keep it as simple for us as you can.

   

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Not bad, for a first attempt….
Will you machine it to smooth it out and do Brass and Aluminum, too ?

This is a test sample of ZAMAK or MAZAK if you’re an old fogey like me.
I am a spring chicken so MAZAK to me is this.

Hopefully you can see the 2/1000” Shim Steel that was used to create the air gap.
Yes.

I used Lamp Black to ensure it didn’t stick to the casting.
Is that soot ?
   

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Buy me a cigar
Will you machine it to smooth it out and do Brass and Aluminum, too ?
I am a spring chicken so MAZAK to me is this.
Yes.
Is that soot ?

1. No machine works, the sides are perfectly flat and concentric. I wasn’t planning on either Brass or Aluminium. The temperatures are a little too high for home die casting. I might try to source some pure Aluminium though. As stated previously most commercially available aluminium products are an alloy with other metals.

2. Lol….

3 & 4. Yes a candle flame puts a fine layer of soot onto a metal part to prevent it sticking.

Cheers Grum.


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Graham, looking good, hopefully the bismuth comes out equally well  O0



Meanwhile, i was trying to better visualize the magnetic field lines coming from the magnets / coils / cores, and i did this by using a compass to sniff out these field lines.

There is no field strength indication, just the position and direction of the field, but normally, the further away from the magnets or active coil, the weakest the field becomes.

I made 3 measurements, with the magnets only, with the active coil only and with both, in all 3 cases all the soft cores were present.

The coil was activated with 2.8A of current as that's what creates a roughly similar strong magnetic field compared with the 4 ring magnets.








Itsu
« Last Edit: 2023-10-18, 15:23:59 by Itsu »
   

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When putting the coil into aiding mode, there is indeed a point at the gap where the needle points parallel (0°) to the device, but due to the compass its size, it flips over this point very quickly.
But it is around 3.5A of current through the coil.

Sniffing out the field lines shows that small hump in the field lines too.



Itsu 
« Last Edit: 2023-10-18, 15:25:01 by Itsu »
   

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I managed to plot one of my soft cores using the nanoVNA and 2 H-field probes as proposed earlier, and this is the result:




Itsu
« Last Edit: 2023-10-18, 15:28:20 by Itsu »
   

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Meanwhile, i was trying to better visualize the magnetic field lines coming from the magnets / coils / cores, and i did this by using a compass to sniff out these field lines.
OMG!  That was a lot of work. No iron powder, heh ?
Anyway, if you want such mappings to be precise in the future then the drawing plane should contain the axis of the device.

There is no field strength indication, just the position and direction of the field, but normally, the further away from the magnets or active coil, the weakest the field becomes.
That is an important piece of information, because flux density that is too low might be insufficient for small radii of the metal ring.
Flux density can be estimated from the H, dimensions and permeability, though, but an empirical measurement would be worth more.

I made 3 measurements, with the magnets only, with the active coil only and with both, in all 3 cases all the soft cores were present.
The coil was activated with 2.8A of current as that's what creates a roughly similar strong magnetic field compared with the 4 ring magnets.
Try to put magnets on both ends of the device, e.g. 2 on one and and 2 on the other (aiding mode)

There is an tradeoff/optimization to be made here:
In one case you could delete the ferrite entirely and put the magnets directly on both sides of the gap.  This would create a high flux density in the gap that would be mostly parallel to the axis.
However, changing the direction of that strong 0° field to 90° would require a lot of ampturns, and a fast coil cannot have many turns. Also, high flux density necessitates narrower pulses (higher frequency spectral content).
Without a ferrite at the gap, the fast low-turn coil needs a lot of volts (and amps) to overcome the magnet's flux and squeeze/turn it 90° and without the high-turn DC/LF coil, you also lose the ability to adjust the 0° flux density in the gap.

On the other hand, low flux density requires a larger metal ring (and ferrite). Approximately 70500 Gauss / mm. (e.g.: a 50mm outer diameter ring requires at least 1410 Gauss in the gap, because 70500 / 50 = 1410 ).
That is well within the capabilities of ceramic magnets which can deliver Br of 2300 to 4000 Gauss, depending on their grade.

With the ferrite, however, the magnets move further apart and the flux density in the gap gets weaker ...but it becomes easier for the low-turn coil to squeeze/turn it 90°. 
The longer the ferrite, the weaker the flux in the gap and this might require significant DC in the high-turn coil to aid it.  That's wasted power.
   

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I managed to plot one of my soft cores using the nanoVNA and 2 H-field probes as proposed earlier, and this is the result:
Well, that proves that this is a very fast ferrite.  It barely budges at 100MHz and is still kickin' at 270MHz.
It also has a high initial permeability which is unusual for such a fast ferrite.  I have no idea what type of material it is made out of.  Maybe someone else can help.

The high speed and permeability of this ferrite means that it is good for magnifying the magnetic pulse generated by the fast low-turn coil, but it is not the ideal ferrite to be under the high-turn DC coil, where a very slow and high permeability ferrite (or powdered iron core) would be perfect so we don't inadvertently build an efficient step-up transformer between the fast low-turn coil and the high-turn DC coil (btw: the ITC is our friend in the latter because it suppresses the transformation of short pulses).
   

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Please continue to add more basic explanations as you are doing lately. Things that matters so people like me and Nickz understand the concept.
I don't think Nick is looking to understand anything that doesn't agree with his "energy from ambient" narrative or anything that is not "fuelless". See his words below.

Not sure I want to test "fuel" anything. Not what I'm looking for, but fuelless, instead.
... despite that other people have been testing "his way" for years.


I know you and Itsu are way ahead of the curve, ...
Itsu is not a proponent of this particular M.O. - he just likes to explore different possibilities with his experiments.  Grum has a good handle on it, too.

my goal here is to get it better digestable.
... just keep it as simple for us as you can.
So ask pointed questions.
I do not know what "simple" is for other people because life has taught me that what is simple and obvious for me might not be so for others.

So keep it going proff. I think your on the right path..
I know that I am doing the research in the correct manner but I cannot be certain it is on the right path until the fat core sings.
   

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It really was not so much work as i expected to draw these flux lines, once you get the hang of it it goes rather quickly.

The iron powder makes much of a mess i would think (sticking to the magnets etc.), so was trying to avoid that.

There is an app on my iPhone (poledetector) that works to find the north or south pole of a magnet and also could be used for looking of a boundary of the flux, but it's not accurate for real strength measurements.

When deleting the cores all together, there is a strong north south flux causing the compass to point parallel to the axis:  https://youtu.be/WYN1KKlaAok


Concerning the characterizing of the soft cores, i also used this formula / test mentioned here: https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg338840/#msg338840

It calculates the permeability to be 700 (similar to Gyula his calculator) when taking dimensions in mm (50 x 25 x 30) and the inductance in uH (70uH @ 1kHz).

What would be the ideal type of ferrite here (type 31, type 43....)?
« Last Edit: 2023-10-15, 13:05:11 by Itsu »
   
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Hi Itsu,

Here is another calculator for unknown toroidal cores: https://coil32.net/online-calculators/determine-toroid-core-permeability.html
 The formulas used by it are listed here: https://coil32.net/ferrite-toroid-core.html   
I do not know what formulas the Mini ring calculator software uses I referred to earlier, maybe it is based on the same formulas like the above coil32 uses (the results are very close).

You refer to the formula this member here showed https://overunity.com/12736/kapanadze-cousin-dally-free-energy/msg338840/#msg338840  and would like to ask how many turns did you wind onto the toroidal core? (because of the 70 uH you measured on it).

Thanks, Gyula
   

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Hi Gyula,

thanks for the additional calculator, i will look at it tonight.

I used the recommended 5 turns (scroll to the right on that very big picture) to measure the 70uH.

Itsu
   
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Okay, thanks.  You can use more than 5 turns, more turns give more precise results on such a big core.

Gyula
   

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What would be the ideal type of ferrite here (type 31, type 43....)?
Something very sluggish and of high permeability, like Nanoperm, on one side of the gap and something fast on the other side of the gap, like the mystery material you have now.

The guiding idea is to make it difficult for the upcoming short pulse to be transformed into the high-turn DC/LF winding because it would get stepped-up there, degrade insulation or arc-over, ring with the ITC & ILC and possibly damage the DC PS or LF Gen.
   
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    Please check my edit to post #280.

   NickZ
   

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Okay, thanks.  You can use more than 5 turns, more turns give more precise results on such a big core.

Gyula


When i use 17 turns, that calculator says: u = 594  Al = 2467 nH/N2.


Itsu
   

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When i use 17 turns, that calculator says: u = 594  Al = 2467 nH/N2.
That's still a large initial µr for a 100MHz+ ferrite.
« Last Edit: 2023-10-15, 20:08:25 by verpies »
   

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    Please check my edit to post #280.

   NickZ

Hi Nick.

You seem to have got the quote thingy a little wrong, however can you provide us with a link to the YouTube video that you were referring to please? TK’s last one….

After going “ Solar “ I lost touch with the scene for several years.

Cheers Grum.


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That's still a large initial µr for a 100MHz+ ferite.


I remembered i bought these cores while working on the yfree project, so i scanned that thread and found they were recommended there as being Digikey part number 240-2244-ND.
They still seem to be available there:  https://www.digikey.nl/en/products/detail/laird-signal-integrity-products/28b2000-100/668340

The data sheet found there does not really show any information about permeability: https://mm.digikey.com/Volume0/opasdata/d220001/medias/docus/517/Ferrite_EMI_Cable_Cores.pdf
other than its dimensions and impedance at some frequencies and material :

BROADBAND 28 MATERIAL

Part
Number             DIMENSIONS mm (inches)       Typical Impedance (Z) in Ohms (Ω)           
                            A         B          C             @ 25MHz   @ 100MHz    @ 300MHz

28B2000-100       50.80    25.40    28.70              157            305              442
                       (2.000)  (1.000)  (1.130)


Itsu
« Last Edit: 2023-10-15, 19:31:49 by Itsu »
   
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