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Author Topic: Alexander Graham Bell's Free Energy Device  (Read 5206 times)
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Hi F6FLT,

Yes, a diode with no voltage drop would rectify noise into useful energy.

But that sparked an idea. Thinking of Shanefield's device, attached, which does claim to rectify thermal noise by boosting its voltage before putting it through the diode, I had a lateral leap and remembered that there is such a thing as a magnetic rectifier, attached. Tesla invented the first one but I have several others in my files.

The first version of his device requires a source of DC current but a further version (fig. 6) uses two permanent magnets to provide the saturation of cores that 'sorts' currents in two directions.

Obviously such a device can have a minimal voltage drop as wires and coils can have a large cross section and minimal resistance along their length. Would such an arrangement be able to rectify thermal noise?

I wonder if some devices like the Coler Magnetstromapparat could have worked on this principle? In his case the magnet itself would have been the path of the thermal noise current.

All highly speculative of course, but it came to me in a flash when I read your post.. might as well spew it out...

Fred





   
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Hi Fred,

The spectrum of thermal noise extends over a huge bandwidth, and as the energy density per Hz is constant, the recoverable energy at low frequencies is excessively low because only a small bandwidth is available. For example, the energy available between 100 KHz and 1 MHz will be 1/10th of that between 1 and 10 MHz, which will be 1/10th of that between 10 and 100 MHz, which will be 1/10th of that between 100 MHz and 1 GHz and so on...
No transformer exists that would have a transformation ratio sufficient to raise the noise level above the threshold voltage of a diode, and this over a sufficiently large bandwidth, say 1 GHz, to derive useful energy which will be ridiculously low anyway. Even the electromagnetic background noise available at the terminals of a broadband antenna provides considerably more energy than the thermal noise.
I don't think Coler's machine has anything to do with thermal noise at all.
As for Tesla's idea, while we no longer have the problem of the diode threshold (which is not really a problem since we can always raise AC voltages to levels in relation to which the diode threshold voltage is negligible), we do have the more serious problem of losses, since the DC current comes from an imbalance between two paths, which is far from perfect, and a reverse current will always flow in the disadvantaged branch, reducing that of the favoured branch, and therefore the total current, but contributing to losses.

I think we really need to stop looking to the past, including Tesla's patents, except for those interested in the history of technology, but that's not the point here. If the solutions were there they would have been generalized, our ancestors were not idiots, they did not retain useless things or found better ones since.  Only the conspiracy theorists will tell us otherwise, but as they have never been able to produce anything useful and have no grasp of logic, their speeches can be taken as the worst kind of nonsense.




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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Hi F6FLT,

I can write only briefly (for me haha) about the points you raise. Bullet points:

1) I agree with you about thermal noise of a resistance at equilibrium, but I'm interested in the situation where the resistance is heated. And your analysis assumes that the 'receiver' of noise energy is passive. But projects such as the Black Hole Antenna of Sutton, and the artificial low noise resistors of Forward, and the negative feedback circuit of Black, suggest that in some situations an active 'antenna' for noise can pull in more energy than it takes to attract it.

2) Your assertion that no transformer exists sufficient to raise the noise threshold above the drop of a diode goes against the evidence of the Shanefield patent. Admittedly it has not been tested here, but Shanefield was head of the EE department of Rutgers when he invented it, so there is at least a chance that it might work. I admit that this is an ad hominem argument, but so often skeptics will invoke some illustrious expert to say why something won't work, that I feel justified in using one to say why something MIGHT work :-)

3) I have no idea how Coler's device worked, but I've been witness to two replication attempts and each got small outputs that continued over time, so I think there is something to the device. It also has a higher level of documentation than most such projects.

4) In general I agree with you about looking to the past-- if by the past you mean the mythology of the 'free energy movement'. It's very atypical of me to bring up Tesla, or for that matter Coler. I brought up Tesla's magnetic rectifier patent because it is less well known.

5) Conspiracy theories are a waste of time. Sure, there are some hidden actors and organizations, but they are not concerned about the 'free energy' subculture. Nor do they have any reason to be.

6) But your statement that 'if the solutions were there [in the past], they would be known' is completely mistaken. The idea that our ancestors were 'not idiots' and thus would have always made the right choices as to what to develop takes it for granted that human nature was somehow different in the past, that in the past people were rational actors who always made the right decisions about what to develop and what not to. The idea that people are rational actors is quite irrational! The belief that technical development HAD to proceed along the lines it has is an article of faith, somewhat similar to the Communist belief in the inexorable path of the dialectic, or the Capitalist belief in the invisible hand of the market, or the Christian belief in the return of Christ. The historical record simply proves this wrong. Cultures, and scientific cultures, determine what will be developed and what will be ignored. I see examples of this in patents all the time, and I saw the process at close range in various companies I was in, where quite often the projects chosen were fraudulent or ill conceived while substantial projects were underfunded or ignored because they weren't flashy or promised instant gold.

7) As a result I spend my time trawling patent databases, and old scientific papers, and mostly ignoring what everyone else cares about, and this has resulted in quite a pile of interesting material. At least interesting to me!

Fred
   
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Orthofield
Quote
2) Your assertion that no transformer exists sufficient to raise the noise threshold above the drop of a diode goes against the evidence of the Shanefield patent. Admittedly it has not been tested here, but Shanefield was head of the EE department of Rutgers when he invented it, so there is at least a chance that it might work. I admit that this is an ad hominem argument, but so often skeptics will invoke some illustrious expert to say why something won't work, that I feel justified in using one to say why something MIGHT work :-)

Zero threshold diodes as EPAD mosfets which have basically no voltage drop are already old technology.
https://aldinc.com/ald_zerothresholdmosfet.php
Quote
The Quad/Dual N-Channel Matched Pair Zero Threshold MOSFETs are matched at the factory using ALD’s exclusive EPAD® CMOS technology to achieve the industry’s lowest threshold voltage of 0.0V with an exceptional range of variation from 0.01V to -0.01V and an offset voltage of just 2mV.

An inductor/transformer has little to do with the threshold more so the conduction devices attached to it. I was building and testing zero threshold devices almost a decade ago until Advanced Linear Devices beat me to it. In my opinion the zero threshold concept should have been on the mind of any credible researcher concerned with efficiency. It's an obvious bottleneck in every circuit just waiting for a solution.

The technology isn't difficult and zero threshold simply means a gate bias which automatically anticipates conduction. The gate is always at zero thus anything over zero must trigger conduction through an ultra low resistance path. So it should have been obvious pre-charging the gate and holding/regulating said pre-charge was the only limitation. As is often the case most are chasing smoke and mirrors trying to solve things which don't need solving because there not the real problem.

The notion of a free energy device is similar. Were already swimming in a sea of EM and high energy particles so energy is not the problem. Understanding the form of energy in question and how to concentrate it and/or transform it efficiently is the problem.

AC


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Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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Orthofield
Zero threshold diodes as EPAD mosfets which have basically no voltage drop are already old technology.
https://aldinc.com/ald_zerothresholdmosfet.php
...

Except that EPAD mosfets are not diodes. Apparently you can't read a datasheet or you haven't tried. Otherwise you would have understood that there is no possibility to rectify the voltage from thermal noise with such a technology, see for example the ALD110800A datasheet.

And even if we had real diodes with zero threshold, which these MOFETs are not, the rectification of the noise would be impossible for the reason that we would also need a diode without internal thermal noise. This would be possible with a diode at absolute zero and the resistance at room temperature, but then it is a conventional circuit since it involves a temperature difference.



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Hi Allcanadian,

Thanks for mentioning these EPAD Mosfets. I wasn't aware of them. Here's a page where they are used as a replacement for diodes in a crystal radio set...

http://www.creative-science.org.uk/epadmosfets.html

I've only just begun to read about them so can't comment more.

It's possible to create a circuit with no internal noise. However, the circuits are not passive. Harold Black did this with negative feedback and hybrid coils, and later Robert Forward patented several devices to do this using FETs and other transistors. One version is attached.

Thermal electrical noise WILL flow out of a resistor into one of these circuits, and the resistor will get colder. Black reported this in 1940. Refer to pg. 9 of the attached patent.

The only issue is whether the energy needed to power the circuit is more or less than the energy that can be extracted from the heated resistor. This has not been determined, and cannot be asserted one way or the other until an experiment has been done.

Fred
   
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Quote
Thanks for mentioning these EPAD Mosfets. I wasn't aware of them. Here's a page where they are used as a replacement for diodes in a crystal radio set...

They can act as a synchronous rectifier which emulates a diode which is what zero threshold devices are all about. So it can act exactly like a diode without all the normal defects inherent in them. Normally diodes have poor efficiency and are completely outdated in my opinion.

I worked in this field of tech for around 6 months building many zero threshold devices including a unique grid tie inverter. I'm still a little irritated ALD beat me to market, lol.

Quote
It's possible to create a circuit with no internal noise. However, the circuits are not passive. Harold Black did this with negative feedback and hybrid coils, and later Robert Forward patented several devices to do this using FETs and other transistors. One version is attached.

Thermal electrical noise WILL flow out of a resistor into one of these circuits, and the resistor will get colder. Black reported this in 1940. Refer to pg. 9 of the attached patent.

Yes, there are so many technologies with so many opportunities it's difficult to know which direction to go. Conceptually I am biased against any thermal/heat related technology. As Viktor Schauberger implied, heat is the lowest form of energy utilized by the lowest level of thinkers. As such I abandoned thermodynamics years ago and concentrated on electrodynamics. It follows the notion that if we want to make real progress we should not be listening to or following others still stuck in the past.

AC


---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
Group: Experimentalist
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@Fred

From what I've read it's simply a MOSFET whose gap is adjusted so that at Vgs=0, Rds is ON (but still Rds remains large), that it works with low voltage, and that the input capacitance is low. An oscillator has been made that operates at 20 mV.

If Vgs varies slightly around zero, then the drain/source junction behaves as a resistor proportional to Vgs (so no kink effect), which is the case with the thermal noise signal. For the rest it behaves like a normal MOSFET.



---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Yes, there are so many technologies with so many opportunities it's difficult to know which direction to go. Conceptually I am biased against any thermal/heat related technology. As Viktor Schauberger implied, heat is the lowest form of energy utilized by the lowest level of thinkers. As such I abandoned thermodynamics years ago and concentrated on electrodynamics. It follows the notion that if we want to make real progress we should not be listening to or following others still stuck in the past.

AC

Yes, there are many directions and of course everyone will have their favorite directions. I ignored heat for a long time, it just didn't seem interesting compared to motors/generators/transformers-- but then I found a patent which generated excess heat from Triacs, and got interested in the subject. The Bice patent was tested with calorimetry in a company lab, and did have gain. That led me to several finds in the thermoelectric literature which convinced me we don't really understand the relationship between heat (phonons in metal) and electrons. 

As to those stuck in the past-- I see both conventional and unconventional researchers selectively looking at the past (for instance Schauberger on one side, and Helmholz on the other) while ignoring huge piles of additional projects-- on both sides. Most of what has been done is just not known on either side. Everyone just goes to their favorite sources. And this isn't surprising, because the volume of information available is just too much to comprehend. And for me to say that is saying something, because I remember pretty much everything I ever looked at--something of an idiot savant in those terms...

Fred
   

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Is F6FLT an amateur radio call sign? :)
   
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@Chief
Yes it's mine :)


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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@Fred
What always amazes me about these old patents is that no follow-up has been given to an invention that seems revolutionary.
If commercially a heater was given for "2 KW of heat for only 1.5 KW of power supply", I'm sure it would be successful. And don't tell me that this is because of a "dogma" of energy conservation, when we see much worse in commercial advertisements, and here a simple measurement by a certification body would show that this is true.
If this was not done, would it not be that the inventor's interpretation of his measurements was not correct?


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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Orthofield
Quote
Yes, there are many directions and of course everyone will have their favorite directions. I ignored heat for a long time, it just didn't seem interesting compared to motors/generators/transformers-- but then I found a patent which generated excess heat from Triacs, and got interested in the subject. The Bice patent was tested with calorimetry in a company lab, and did have gain. That led me to several finds in the thermoelectric literature which convinced me we don't really understand the relationship between heat (phonons in metal) and electrons. 

I know the feeling and I should have said I would like to think I abandoned thermodynamics. In the real world we still have to heat our house, domestic water and any number of other things.   

Quote
As to those stuck in the past-- I see both conventional and unconventional researchers selectively looking at the past (for instance Schauberger on one side, and Helmholz on the other) while ignoring huge piles of additional projects-- on both sides. Most of what has been done is just not known on either side. Everyone just goes to their favorite sources. And this isn't surprising, because the volume of information available is just too much to comprehend. And for me to say that is saying something, because I remember pretty much everything I ever looked at--something of an idiot savant in those terms...

That is interesting and I also have a near photographic memory with respect to science and technology. I'm not sure how a person could succeed without one because of the sheer magnitude of information which needs to be covered and retained. I have found free energy is basically like a large game of connect the dots between technologies and inventors. Most inventors were using the same process on different levels in different ways.

AC



---------------------------
Comprehend and Copy Nature... Viktor Schauberger

“The first principle is that you must not fool yourself and you are the easiest person to fool.”― Richard P. Feynman
   
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@Fred
What always amazes me about these old patents is that no follow-up has been given to an invention that seems revolutionary.
If commercially a heater was given for "2 KW of heat for only 1.5 KW of power supply", I'm sure it would be successful. And don't tell me that this is because of a "dogma" of energy conservation, when we see much worse in commercial advertisements, and here a simple measurement by a certification body would show that this is true.
If this was not done, would it not be that the inventor's interpretation of his measurements was not correct?

Yes, it is surprising, isn't it? In this case the device was replicated and tested with professional calorimetric gear and the results were as the inventor said-- although the gain was more like 8% over unity as I recall.

The decision was made by those on high not to pursue the technology. There were several projects competing for funding at that time, and the CEO went for a glamorous 'free energy generator' which is now patented (I worked on the patent), but has not gone anywhere. The company no longer exists. Far from being the dogma of energy conservation, what killed this project was the confluence of the bright shiny object, the easily distracted and non technical CEO, and the charismatic inventor who's going to revolutionize society and make the CEO a billion bucks.

In all three companies I was involved in, the myths of the glamorous free energy machine and the lone wolf genius effectively killed the development of genuine technologies. If we in the lab had something with a COP of 1.02, the CEO would instead spend all the money on a Russian anti-gravity machine (true story).

In the larger sense, unless the inventor works under the aegis of a corporation, or has a lot of money to do their own development, it's not likely that anyone would notice their invention in the sea of data. It takes enormous drive and self-marketing ability to get funding in a world of (often meaningless but profitable) competing inventions.

And of course, if the inventor claims some sort of unconventional effect or unusual performance, it will often stall in the patent office. And even when companies actively search for patents to develop or buy (not often) they hire professionals to do the searching, and the searches are strictly focused on very specific subclasses of patents. My searches cover many classes--for instance, all solar energy converters-- and work laterally across seemingly unrelated lines of technology, looking for anomalies and general principles. Otherwise things like Bice would never see the light of day. They are forgotten by everyone except the inventor from the moment the patent is filed. 

There are two devices that have documented anomalous performance which have broken through and had some minor commercial success. The Griggs Hydrosonic Pump, now renamed the Shockwave Reactor, and the Cobb Energy Trimmer previously mentioned.

https://www.hydrodynamics.com/products/

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jn_NhUq3k-I
(the video is long and tedious, but toward the end shows the inventor preparing to install the Energy Trimmer in an LA public library).

Although both have been tested and shown to have energy gains not fully accounted for, neither was marketed as a 'free energy device', which of course is the kiss of death for commercial development.

Fred

   
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I know the feeling and I should have said I would like to think I abandoned thermodynamics. In the real world we still have to heat our house, domestic water and any number of other things.   

That is interesting and I also have a near photographic memory with respect to science and technology. I'm not sure how a person could succeed without one because of the sheer magnitude of information which needs to be covered and retained. I have found free energy is basically like a large game of connect the dots between technologies and inventors. Most inventors were using the same process on different levels in different ways.

AC

Yes, and losses in electrical machines are mostly about heat, so you are going to encounter heat whether you want to or not. (On the back burner, I think there may be methods of eliminating thermal losses in motors, generators, and transformers that are similar to adiabatic charging of capacitors.)

I think it's possible to be very effective as an inventor without knowing so many different fields. It only takes one good idea, and determination to drill into that idea until it works or doesn't work. It's just as easy to let the vast sea of information be a distraction. Each have their gifts.

Fred

   

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What do you will say about that ?
rummaged in my old archives. I have found it... :-\
   
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@Fred

A gain of "like 8% over unity" or a COP of 1.02 are very low. "8%" is much when talking about electrical voltage, but in thermodynamic measurements it is common.
Therefore, if the margin of error of the measurements has not been carefully evaluated, one cannot conclude anything. In all the cases I have seen so far, the margin of uncertainty of the measurements is never specified and probably never evaluated. I understand that companies do not persist when an apparent anomaly remains within the likely measurement uncertainty range.



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What do you will say about that ?
...

This paper is the usual nonsense of those who do not understand anything about electromagnetism, talk about it anyway because of their Dunning-Kruger syndrome, and of course are unable to provide achievements that would work according to their raving.

I am only responding to "energy generation by it's own application", the others being equally stupid but my time is not infinite.

Tesla's setup is clever, because the current in the helical wire will create a magnetic field which, if the direction of the helix is right, will add to the field of the magnet.
The foolishness is to claim that this would provide energy. In a Faraday disc, it is not the magnetic field that provides the energy. In the generator version, it is the mechanical force exerting torque on the disc, and in the motor version, the electric current.
If the magnet or magnetic field is stronger, you will get the same effect at slower speeds but same energy provided, or a greater effect at the same speed but only if you expend more energy.

And while the idea of increasing the magnetic field may have been useful in Tesla's day, it is no longer useful today for two reasons. Firstly, permanent magnets are much more powerful. Secondly, the Faraday disc is concerned with very low voltages but high currents. If you increase the length of the conductor by putting a spiral instead of the disc, the resistance becomes considerably higher and the interest of this type of generator/motor is lost.
Because it must also be understood that the spiral coil do not increase the voltage. If it is true that the conductor is longer, on the other hand, as it no longer crosses the magnetic field at right angle because of the spiral, the component of the Lorentz force along the conductor on each electron is weaker (to be multiplied by the cosine of the angle of the conductor with respect to the radius of the disc). The voltage therefore remains the same.

I consider this nonsense about Tesla's inventions to be an insult to his memory.



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"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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@Fred

A gain of "like 8% over unity" or a COP of 1.02 are very low. "8%" is much when talking about electrical voltage, but in thermodynamic measurements it is common.
Therefore, if the margin of error of the measurements has not been carefully evaluated, one cannot conclude anything. In all the cases I have seen so far, the margin of uncertainty of the measurements is never specified and probably never evaluated. I understand that companies do not persist when an apparent anomaly remains within the likely measurement uncertainty range.

Hi F6FLT,

I should have said a COP of 1.08-- my arithmetic error. The paper is not in my hands and was a decade ago. And no, one can't conclude anything.
But it was a far better bet than the goofy project that was chosen instead!

In general if an electrical device shows a conversion efficiency of something like COP .95 or more at standard temperature, then I would suspect an 'excess energy' principle, or at least some unusual heat conservation.

And nothing wrong with near 100% efficient! Why is that not a worthy goal? And it seems quite possible in motors, generators, transformers, transmission lines, and direct energy converters. In other words, the entire energy structure of our societies.

My bet is that the amateur geniuses here, in aiming for the stars (overunity) will reach the moon (near-unity).
Even that isn't considered possible in conventional circles, which have set the bar WAY too low.
 
And if someone finds real overunity (or in reality a new energy source) then great! All the better!

Fred
   
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@Fred,

Even a COP of 1.08 is within the margin of uncertainty of the measurements, except for very large measurement precautions that are rarely seen, and calculation of the margin of error.
If people measured their resistances, inductances, capacitances, voltages and currents with accurate and well-calibrated instruments, they would be surprised. And I'm not even talking about the more subtle defects, such as induced current in a measuring loop.
I would put the bar for a promising COP rather between 1.3 and 1.5.



---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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Hi F6FLT,

You are of course correct if one is interested in "proving overunity" (for some reason, which escapes me!), but if you are looking at pointers as to what projects to choose from to improve energy efficiency, then even results well below unity can be taken into consideration, if a total power balance is done, and accurately.

Here is an example. This is a test of the Cobb energy trimmer from an extremely able EE I dug up from my files the other day. (This was a device that was installed commercially in the LA area and had been authenticated at Edison Electric, the power company there. You could get energy credits from LA for installing it.) You can see that the useful COP is 1.055, but a total accounting of losses shows that the 'absolute COP' is 1.151.

Other tests without the third coil that makes it work showed the appropriate COP of below unity for both useful and absolute numbers.

Now, these numbers are not going to make the papers, but they point to an effect that is clearly there, easily achievable, and subject to possible improvement (I have some ideas on that). It runs at mains frequency with an unsaturated core--there's no high voltage/high frequency/parametric hocus pocus.

In my opinion, this sort of evidence points strongly to something that is worth pursuing--over mythologies with missing information, or fiddling that never gets more than conventional wisdom suggests.

Fred
   
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@Fred,

I understand your point of view. However, one does not have to prove the OU to others any more than to oneself.
It happened to me several times to see OU in one of my setups, and it is by looking closer that I understood the problem of measurement.
With a COP of only 1.05, I think you have to assume that the error is in the measurement, because that is what is most likely. It's not a question of giving up, but of proving to yourself that it's really 1.05.


---------------------------
"Open your mind, but not like a trash bin"
   
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