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OverUnity Research > Pulsed / Radiant Energy > Gray's Devices (Moderator: Spokane 1) > Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #125 on: 2022-10-13, 17:11:03 »

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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-13, 16:35:29
Mark,

I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other Member will help by posting it.

Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #126 on: 2022-10-13, 17:24:04 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-10-13, 17:11:03
Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.

The first  usage I've seen was the Start Motor.  My opinion is that a unidirectional impulse of exotic energy is the goal.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #127 on: 2022-10-13, 17:39:15 »

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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-13, 17:24:04
The first  usage I've seen was the Start Motor.  My opinion is that a unidirectional impulse of exotic energy is the goal.

Username Darkspeed used ignitrons for his "Stinging field" experiments (Nikola Tesla had reported stinging fields when using unidirectional impulses). 
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=561.0

Darkspeed said the following about inducing current in a secondary coil without a measurable magnetic field:

Placing a Tesla secondary in proximity to the primary I have measured a very sharp output on the secondary without ever measuring a magnetic field on the primary.
May be too fast for my meter or maybe it takes more than one bound between plates to establish the magnetic field. - wouldn't that be interesting...
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #128 on: 2022-10-13, 18:16:00 »
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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-13, 16:35:29
Mark,

I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other Member will help by posting it.

Jerry,

That is great information. If Hackenburger was able to accomplish this, then he could have eliminated the core to core arcs and all the headache that went with them. How is that achieved with out a control grid? I'm eager to learn more about this process. It solves a lot of engineering mystery for the operation of the Kansas Era motors. Any links I can check out? This approach might explain all the contacts on the control commutator.

Mark McKay
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #129 on: 2022-10-13, 18:18:00 »
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Jerry
Quote
I've been doing some research on Ignitron commutation.  Most of the articles are behind a pay wall, including the one about a twin tube MW inverter ($35), but some information can be gleaned from the abstracts.  It seems that all Ignitrons can be commutated, not just the 7171 model used by Gray.  One abstract states that the voltage transient produced when one tube is turned on switches the other one off.  Another abstract indicates that any thing more negative than -.5V will work.  Still another abstract mentions that Ignition commutation is the same as commutating an SCR.  That's a really simple circuit and I'll dig it out when I have time.  Unless some other member will help by posting it.

Working from first principals I always found this kind of conversation strange. I built countless high voltage high current circuit elements like this and there's really nothing to them. I used mercury, molten lead, high conductance water/fluids and even metal filings/powder. In fact the coherer is similar and it can conduct at HV then break the circuit on vaporization, quenching or commutation/chopping. An ignitron simply introduces a HV effect as periodic mercury vaporization which is the only reason the conductance increases through the device.

I say strange because many go on and on about the characteristics of a circuit element or device but never go into what it actually does, what is it?. Of course, this is the main defect of lump sum modelling/reasoning and people are taught not to question what something is or how it works in reality. It's like trying to understand a car by looking at it versus designing, building and driving one.

Here it helps to understand many of these inventors, like myself, tend to fabricate most things from scratch. So where some see a simple lumped sum capacitor I used plate capacitors with variable conductance/corona effects which could handle over voltage/arc overs like a spark gap. Since we have corona we also have the possibility of plasma wave, physical effects and other variables within the element. Simply put, it's not the same thing and to suppose they are is a mistake. Lumped sum modelling may work for armatures but not serious FE researchers.

I have found this is why 99% of people fail and never see anything in the way of an anomaly. By using lumped sum modelling, electronics and off the shelf components they have in effect done everything in there power to ensure they fail. They all do exactly the same thing ensuring they all get exactly the same results.

AC


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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #130 on: 2022-10-13, 18:18:15 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-10-13, 17:39:15
Username Darkspeed used ignitrons for his "Stinging field" experiments (Nikola Tesla had reported stinging fields when using unidirectional impulses). 
https://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=561.0

Darkspeed said the following about inducing current in a secondary coil without a measurable magnetic field:

Placing a Tesla secondary in proximity to the primary I have measured a very sharp output on the secondary without ever measuring a magnetic field on the primary.
May be too fast for my meter or maybe it takes more than one bound between plates to establish the magnetic field. - wouldn't that be interesting...

Tesla was also famous for his "Voltage increase without a current path". (White light going up the outside of a coil, or segmented cylinder).  I don't see this in Gray's work.  Only the rapid termination of an increasing potential.  Without magnetic interruption.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #131 on: 2022-10-13, 18:22:30 »
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AC:. You banned me from posting to your thread (deleting my input), so why are you responding to my discussion?
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #132 on: 2022-10-13, 18:23:58 »

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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-13, 18:18:15
Tesla was also famous for his "Voltage increase without a current path". (White light going up the outside of a coil, or segmented cylinder).  I don't see this in Gray's work.  Only the rapid termination of an increasing potential.  Without magnetic interruption.

Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #133 on: 2022-10-13, 18:25:50 »
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Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022-10-13, 18:16:00
Jerry,

That is great information. If Hackenburger was able to accomplish this, then he could have eliminated the core to core arcs and all the headache that went with them. How is that achieved with out a control grid? I'm eager to learn more about this process. It solves a lot of engineering mystery for the operation of the Kansas Era motors. Any links I can check out? This approach might explain all the contacts on the control commutator.

Mark McKay

It looks to me like Hackenberger used precisely timed reverse spikes for commutation.  Look for a small board with three precision resistors and some timing components.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #134 on: 2022-10-13, 18:36:07 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-10-13, 18:23:58
Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:
. I think what they were doing with the popping coils was connecting battery cables to the cores, with the HV also connected in such a way to spark between the cores.  A relay connecting both sources at the same time would produce a stretching arc containing electrostatic energy.  I'll try wiring that up pretty soon, to test my theory.  Pictures of the Found Motor show some 12V automotive starter solenoids, with sharp phase shifting bends in the cables.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #135 on: 2022-10-13, 18:41:02 »
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Speaking of automotive, I'm still struggling with a severely overheating brake rotor, even with new parts.  I need to take a break, and look at that some more.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #136 on: 2022-10-13, 20:34:27 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-10-13, 18:23:58
Didn't Hackenburger say it was more like an electrostatic effect?

What if you applied this unidirectional impulse to the lower coil of the popper coils and induced an opposite current in the upper coil?

here is the GL7171 datasheet:

Dear Grumpy,

Thanks for the data sheet.

I'm sure you know that EMA stood for Electromagnetics Association. Well that was not the original name. The original name (according to Peter Lindemann) was ESMA which went something like Electrostatic and Electromagnetic Association. To me and him there was a deliberate effort to suppress the electrostatic nature of this technology. Make sense to me, let everyone believe it was magnetic repulsion and they will be eating Red Hearing for lunch for a long time. So, when Hackenburger speaks and writes of an electrostatic process he knows from whence he speaks.
« Last Edit: 2022-10-26, 23:06:36 by Spokane 1 »
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #137 on: 2022-10-13, 21:11:27 »
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Quote from: Grumpy on 2022-10-13, 17:11:03
Did Ed Gray use ignitrons in his early years are after he restarted?
Their use implies you are serious about making a unidirectional impulse.

Dear Grumpy,

From my research of the historical record the Ignitorns didn't show up until the 1986 promotion video. In an Interview with Mark Gray, Hackenburger was using Ignitorns in 1979 in Dodge City. The last photos of the 9 pole motors was the EMA6 in 1976 before it was confiscated by the FCC. No Ignitorns appear on this motor in the GD photos I have. There is no history as to what happened from 1976 to 1979, but Hackenburger was driving a Taxi to pay the rent and continue research. He could have had a real job. Given that they (Gray, Mark, Hack) were only in Dodge City for a year and the huge amount of prototyping that was done, I would suspect that Hackenburger must have had a working model to convince Mr. Audrey to advance him the $2 million for research prior to making the trip.

Maybe Jerry's right? Hackenburger, rather than making a custom prototype, was able to use an off the shelf Dynamotor as a proof of principle device. Because he certainly didn't have the resources to pay the machine shop to build even one of the Kansas era models. Using Ignitorns for that model makes good sense. If so, then Hackenburger started using Ignitrons sometime after 1976 and for sure by 1979. I wonder where he got the idea?

Mark McKay
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #138 on: 2022-10-13, 21:17:04 »

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Ruhmkorff coil waveform:
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #139 on: 2022-10-14, 05:57:17 »
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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-13, 18:25:50
It looks to me like Hackenberger used precisely timed reverse spikes for commutation.  Look for a small board with three precision resistors and some timing components.

Dear Jerry,

I believe that the master timing controller was the 15 contact commutator on the front of the motors. It also had two independent slip rings. According to Nelson Schlaft the original Kansas City motors were equipped with thyratrons and other vacuum tubes on circuit boards. Of course he believed that these tubes were incompatible with the goal of using these motors for automobile applications. So, he removed them and tossed them in the trash. I think that all the precise timing and delays were accomplished by these ancillary circuits. The Thyratron could have been used to drive the Ignitrons, which was common practice at the time. However they could have been involved with energy recycle harvest.

When Mr. Paul Wishard witnessed the operation of the Purple Motor for a group of investors in 1981, he claims that it had Thyratrons operating with the motor. He described the purple glow, but couldn't recall how many there were or any details about the vacuum tube circuits.

With all that support electronics (now all removed) and the complex commutator a lot could have been done as far complex switching and timing.

Mark McKay
« Last Edit: 2022-10-26, 23:08:33 by Spokane 1 »
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #140 on: 2022-10-15, 01:23:28 »
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Mark,

That last image in your message was what I remembered.  Having the circuit is helpful.  The diode strings indicate that the red capacitors are HV, several nF.  Referencing the motor cart, one of the Ignitron rows has pulse transformers, for striking the internal plasma.  These transformers are normally driven with LV cap discharges.  The second set of Ignitrons apparently are triggered in some other manner.  The question then is if that was the function of the trigger card.  If it were that simple, why include the expensive pulse transformers?  Hence, my thought that the trigger card was used for commutation.  This requires only a momentary reverse bias.  Like the pulses in the Ruhmkorff waveform posted by Grumpy, a unidirectional pulse requires that the discharge be switched off before the potential passes its high point.  This can't be done with a brush sliding past a contact, with accompanying arc stretching.  Unlike an Ignitron, a Thyratron does have some amount of reverse leakage current.  Which would explain their lack of effectiveness.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #141 on: 2022-10-15, 02:43:14 »
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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-15, 01:23:28
Mark,

That last image in your message was what I remembered.  Having the circuit is helpful.  The diode strings indicate that the red capacitors are HV, several nF.  Referencing the motor cart, one of the Ignitron rows has pulse transformers, for striking the internal plasma.  These transformers are normally driven with LV cap discharges.  The second set of Ignitrons apparently are triggered in some other manner.  The question then is if that was the function of the trigger card.  If it were that simple, why include the expensive pulse transformers?  Hence, my thought that the trigger card was used for commutation.  This requires only a momentary reverse bias.  Like the pulses in the Ruhmkorff waveform posted by Grumpy, a unidirectional pulse requires that the discharge be switched off before the potential passes its high point.  This can't be done with a brush sliding past a contact, with accompanying arc stretching.  Unlike an Ignitron, a Thyratron does have some amount of reverse leakage current.  Which would explain their lack of effectiveness.

Good Observations and technical questions.

Nelson Schlaft claims that those pulse transformers were original equipment. They worked just fine with his trigger card so he left them alone.
My take is that the ignitrons without the transformers are used on the low side of the inductive load, while the transformers are used for the Ignitorns
connected on the high side of the load. I've seen this arrangement in "H" bridge circuits using SCR motor control.

When "Rocky" (Nelon Schlaft) rewire the motors he had one set of Ignitrons on the high side and one set on the low side. I think this is a waste of equipment for what he was doing (or trying to do). A simple capacitor pulse circuit I don't believe needs two switching elements. I think this fundamental layout was left over from the original circuit and
had something to do with the on-off switching we have been talking about. I need to dig out my power control books and see how the professionals do it. I wonder if we can get cheap high power SCR's to reach the operational range we need (but haven't determined yet).

Here are photos of the EMA0 for those that haven't seen it. It amazes me that Gray (or one of his henchmen) paid a lot of money to have this over detailed model built. That money could have been spent on upgraded instrumentation or pizza for the staff.

Mark McKay
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #142 on: 2022-10-15, 02:47:19 »
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More EMA0 photos:
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #143 on: 2022-10-15, 16:36:30 »
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Here are a couple more Black Box images before I fold and go back to working on one of my own inventions.

The first picture points out a 1.5V battery in the background, as if the circuit's output is fed through that cell.  This would produce a DC offset, which will increase in that box's side of the motor's  power supply transformer.

The second picture shows three Boxes.  The three-outlet receptical box in the center consists of only the internal circuit board, with a clearly visible capacitor.

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about Gray's Conversion Tube.  There was absolutely no discussion about my related builds.  I'm logging out until I can find a responsive forum.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #144 on: 2022-10-15, 17:55:42 »
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Quote from: Jerry Volland on 2022-10-15, 16:36:30
Here are a couple more Black Box images before I fold and go back to working on one of my own inventions.

The first picture points out a 1.5V battery in the background, as if the circuit's output is fed through that cell.  This would produce a DC offset, which will increase in that box's side of the motor's  power supply transformer.

The second picture shows three Boxes.  The three-outlet receptical box in the center consists of only the internal circuit board, with a clearly visible capacitor.

This thread was SUPPOSED to be about Gray's Conversion Tube.  There was absolutely no discussion about my related builds.  I'm logging out until I can find a responsive forum.

Dear Jerry,

Your right, there hasn't been much discussion about the CEST these last couple of weeks. It seems people want to catch up on the overall history of the technology at this time. You should focus on where your inspiration lies. I wonder why there has been so few questions about the CSET. There sure was a huge interest in about 2002. Then it kind of faded away. As I recall, nobody was able to get any meaningful response form CSET setups - except Gary Magratten, and that was enough to keep him going until his death. It just so happens that his layout is similar to yours, so, most likely your are on to something. I'm sure the readers of this thread would be very interested in any observable non-classical phenomena that you come across, even if it is sparks that pernitrate a 1/4" sheet pf Plexiglas.

Some thoughts on the photos. The first one, was taken by GD in 1974. To me it is a collection of parts of different projects. The white 1.5 V wet cell is to big to fit in Blue Electrostatic Converter. I always though it belonged with the "White" box which was a long lasting battery powered portable florescent lamp that extended its life with the converter technology. I'm told that the "Gates" cylinders were sample gel batteries that were being tested. I don't think they made it into any of the electrostatic generators before the LA DA bust. The 10 watt florescent lamp was part of the "White" Box. The covered up circuit board went with one of the electrostatic generators. I suspect the "White" Box. The black box in the upper center looks exactly like the capacitors that were used in the 1973 popping coil demo. The array of machined plastic bushings are similar to the ones in the "Black" motor that isolate the electromagnets from the case.

The second photo is older than the GD photos and comes all the way form Mr. Valentine, the reporter. Mr. Valentine gave about 10 such photos to Peter Lindemann. I'm told that the two boxes on either side of the center black box are motorcycle batteries. The center box is the actual generator (pretty small). The outlet boxes are claimed to be standard 120VAC receptacles that have been rewired in series. The white wires connect to 100 watt incandescent lamps hanging from the ceiling. These were all connected in series. I don't know if additional circuits were housed in these outlet boxes - they easily could have been.

Any way, attached are some of my photos of early CSET builds. Like many researchers I was unable to find any magic with this equipment. Trying to find something out of place is a very difficult task.
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #145 on: 2022-10-15, 20:14:31 »
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Dear All,

Here is a circuit I found that used two Ignitrons for pulse generating, however it requires two power supplies. I've got to work on the layout and see if it can fit into the hardware constraints of the Gold Motor. There are enough contacts on the commutator to allow for a series-parallel system.

Mark McKay
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #146 on: 2022-10-17, 05:42:40 »
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Dear All

This is just the first baby step in the kiddy pool in exploring the response of iron windings in non-classical transformers. Here we are establishing a baseline of low energy pulses at 1.8 Joules. The applied pulse voltage for this test was 300 volts. It is surprising just how little current is forced through the inductance of the windings. Eventually we shall work our way up to 3000 - 5000 volts. At these voltages the pulse energy will be 180 Joules @ 3000V or 500 Joules @ 5000V

Peak Primary Current (Yellow Trace) = 9.94 A
Secondary Current (Cyan Trace)      =  4.4 A
Peak Applied voltage (Red)             = 300 volts
Implied k Factor = 0.54
Pulse duration 3 mS
Approximate Ringing Frequency = 408 Hz (Only one cycle)

The pulse capacitor shunt diode was not installed. Not needed for these low currents.

Nothing to see here just a shake down for the equipment. All classical responses.

Mark McKay
« Last Edit: 2022-10-21, 03:42:22 by Spokane 1 »
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #147 on: 2022-10-21, 05:10:35 »
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Dear All,

The next step was to increase the pulse voltage with a different power supply. I tested at 1000V, 1500V, 2000V, 2500V, and 3000V. This was with the pulse capacitor shunt diode installed. Gray has a 4th patent registered in the UK that makes a big deal of this diode. What it does is keep the primary current unidirectional. The secondary does reverse the current flow at the end of the voltage pulse since the coupling factor is around k = .56 so it has some freedom to ring.

The Primary current seems to be what you would expect. The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V. Instead of a 1/2 sine wave it forms a very sharp sawtooth wave with a very steep current rise. The higher the voltage pulse the steeper the current rise. It appears that all the inductance disappears (or is diminished) and it now acts like a resistor following the voltage pulse. I would say that for this coil and iron wire size (0.035" dia.) some kind of saturation starts around 1000 Volts with a primary peak current of 33 Amps.

At the earlier 300 V pulse the secondary wave form still appears classical (see last post waveforms). The saw tooth waveform starts at 1500 V (60 Amps peak Primary) and just increases in magnitude as we move to 3000 V Pulses (with 101 Amp Primary Peak and 66 Amp Peak Secondary).

So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire. The next step is to attempt to interrupt this current and then withstand the HV BEMF to bring the loop current down to zero quickly. I'm not sure how quick is necessary to get some results but switching on the order of 10 nS has been proposed.

Mark McKay

Red Trace = Voltage pulse across the Primary winding

Yellow Trace = Primary winding Current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Blue Trace = Secondary shorted loop current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage
   
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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #148 on: 2022-10-21, 09:03:44 »
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Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022-10-21, 05:10:35
...
The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V.
...
So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire.
...

The winding being at the same time a ferromagnetic core, it is likely that at a certain pulse level, the iron is magnetically saturated, which explains the non-linearity.


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Re: Edwin Vincent Gray's conversion tube « Reply #149 on: 2022-10-21, 13:34:21 »

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Quote from: Spokane 1 on 2022-10-21, 05:10:35
The next step was to increase the pulse voltage with a different power supply. I tested at 1000V, 1500V, 2000V, 2500V, and 3000V. This was with the pulse capacitor shunt diode installed. Gray has a 4th patent registered in the UK that makes a big deal of this diode. What it does is keep the primary current unidirectional. The secondary does reverse the current flow at the end of the voltage pulse since the coupling factor is around k = .56 so it has some freedom to ring.

The Primary current seems to be what you would expect. The secondary current becomes non-linear above 1000V. Instead of a 1/2 sine wave it forms a very sharp sawtooth wave with a very steep current rise. The higher the voltage pulse the steeper the current rise. It appears that all the inductance disappears (or is diminished) and it now acts like a resistor following the voltage pulse. I would say that for this coil and iron wire size (0.035" dia.) some kind of saturation starts around 1000 Volts with a primary peak current of 33 Amps.

At the earlier 300 V pulse the secondary wave form still appears classical (see last post waveforms). The saw tooth waveform starts at 1500 V (60 Amps peak Primary) and just increases in magnitude as we move to 3000 V Pulses (with 101 Amp Primary Peak and 66 Amp Peak Secondary).

So, something is happening with pulsed iron wire. The next step is to attempt to interrupt this current and then withstand the HV BEMF to bring the loop current down to zero quickly. I'm not sure how quick is necessary to get some results but switching on the order of 10 nS has been proposed.

Mark McKay

Red Trace = Voltage pulse across the Primary winding

Yellow Trace = Primary winding Current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Blue Trace = Secondary shorted loop current using current probe A = 20 X Voltage

Thanks for sharing Mark :)

Curious to see what will happen when you invert the transformer: pulsing the Fe wire instead of copper... ???

There are a few other simple permutations to try as well, as long as the experiment is in-place:   pulsing both in parallel (both aiding and opposing), and in-series aiding+opposing (common-mode choke style).


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