Discussion on wire ambient collection
Initial post:
http://www.nuenergy.org/alt/radiant_energy_diatribe.htm
Just for starters. There are other references, as well as variously wired patented antenna systems of varying efficiency. I can be back later, with other things to upload. This is a part of electronic I have a strong interest in, as long as it's done safely. 1,000+ ft of heavily insulated, ungrounded wire of co-ax cable will pick up 50-50 HZ mains power by mere electromagnetic induction. This can kill quickly!
Found this patent:
#7,643,312
"Method and apparatus for a wireless power supply"
http://www.google.com/patents?id=K8nOAAAAEBAJ&printsec=abstract#v=onepage&q&f=false
This falls into 2 categories: Atmospheric long-wire power tuner systems(this Forum) and stackable high voltage coil/rectifier systems on my own Bench archive thread. I'm not sure what Peterae thinks of duplicated information? He's the boss, so he can decide.
--Lee
http://www.rexresearch.com/tate/tate.htm
A well known ambient power recovery method. Some may or may not be trying to sell this---or something similar---for commercial profit on the Internet or with YouTube.
--Lee
Here you go:
A whole two-page thread all set up with information and schematic diagrams on pg. 1 for the reading. If I find others on the same subject, I can append them to the end of this post.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/2620-question-radiant-energy-battery-charging-using-aerial.html
--Lee
There was another reference that you posted where I think the person claimed milliwatts of power picked up and the ability to recharge small batteries. I don't buy that claim. I am pretty sure your typical atmospheric power setup only produces power on the order of mircowatts. So for all practical intents and purposes it's useless.
However, I can propose an interesting "power showdown." Which would generate more power, an "atmospheric ambient power wire collection" setup or a "spontaneously charging electrolytic capacitor" setup.
I am willing to bet you the electrolytic capacitor setup would win hands down. Plus it is much more manageable because it would be much more compact.
I would imagine a big electrolytic capacitor with it's terminals connected to two suspended sheets of aluminum foil would be hundreds or thousands of times more productive than a typical atmospheric wire collection setup.
Plus you could design a Joule-Thief type arrangement to suck the electrolytic capacitor dry at regular intervals and have it charge a battery or charge up a smaller capacitor to a higher potential. You could even use a CMOS 555 timer setup that draws almost no power to time the Joule Thief power extraction from the big collector capacitor.
These systems draw from the available power in the air itself, the positive and negative ions. So the root source of that energy is solar.
MileHigh
MileHigh, what you propose should work, especially in a city with readily available 50/60 Hz power. Outside the city in the rural county, a lot more wire would be needed to achieve the same power levels. I've seen Internet articles that featured wire runs of thousands of feet in the rural setting.
--Lee
Like I've said before....
I have been using this method to charge my HAM station backup batteries for years. I'm not talking about AAA NiCads. My smallest battery is a 12V motorcycle lead-acid.
http://forums.qrz.com/showthread.php?3447-Antenna-Static-A-Real-Shocker!
http://www.angelfire.com/ak5/energy21/capacitorcharger.htm
People need to get off their high-horse and grab the end of the coax coming from a simple 80M dipole 40' off the ground when there is a thunderstorm within a hundred miles.
BARE WIRE WON'T WORK! The better the insulation the better and the 60Hz stuff is useless.
MicroWatts? Jeez!
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.09.22, 19:12:28
...BARE WIRE WON'T WORK! The better the insulation the better and the 60Hz stuff is useless.
MicroWatts? Jeez!
WaveWatcher is right. The electret effect works if it's insulated. Only if it's insulated. Co-ax cable works like a champ.
Maybe the contraptions which use diodes and capacitors my only get "milliwatts", but a wire to a automobile spark plug/spark gap and then to a diode; then to a battery will give you enough power to make you suffer if you touch it by accident.
--Lee
From that patent match up fig 5 to the Stan Deyo birthday cake coil. It is also pulsed DC.
Quote from: giantkiller on 2011.09.22, 21:02:55
From that patent match up fig 5 to the Stan Deyo birthday cake coil. It is also pulsed DC.
Yeah, I know what you mean now and I found a picture on the GOOGLE Images page, but it won't copy-and-paste with this computer. Stan Deyo works on antigravity projects his "birthday cake" prototype setup looks like the Fig. 5 drawing.
--Lee
WaveWatcher:
I took a look at your links. In effect that looks like a third method that I didn't think of. Static electricity buildup because of the wind flowing past your antenna. I can imagine that would produce more power if you have the right conditions. It's friction power in a manner of speaking.
Perhaps the pecking order would be static friction power (assuming a fairly large antenna), then self-charging capacitor power, and then just normal EM pick-up power.
Also, for the EM pick-up power, it's not as simple as "longer wires equal more power" but that's a really involved discussion that I am not really qualified to get into.
Note however it's fairly easy to set up your self-charging capacitor power station and very difficult to install a big ham radio mast. So you have to pick your poison carefully.
Balloon power to the people, man.
MileHigh
The majority of the time it is static buildup due to friction. With that alone charging a car battery would take a couple of weeks under the best conditions.
The real power is when there is static in the air from nearby thunderstorms. If your antenna is in the storm it is best for it to be protected by a gap arrestor or the end of the cable placed in a very dry Mason jar.
I switch my wire antennas to a Cantenna (50 ohm 2kW dummy load) under rough conditions or when I'll be away.
The tower is a huge expense. I have two. I doubt the ROI would be reasonable for erecting just for free energy 8)
I have a 20 mtrs long Marconi antenna. The only energy I can get from it, is electromagnetic from human origin, on the order of tens to hundreds µW.
During thunderstorms, there are sometimes some sparks at the end of the coaxial plug.
In any case, this is not even peanuts.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011.09.23, 09:21:42
I have a 20 mtrs long Marconi antenna. The only energy I can get from it, is electromagnetic from human origin, on the order of tens to hundreds µW.
During thunderstorms, there are sometimes some sparks at the end of the coaxial plug.
In any case, this is not even peanuts.
Not surprising.
Since a Marconi antenna is vertical and almost always uses a grounded surface as the other half of the dipole this means it is also uninsulated. Unless, it is wire and supported vertically from some point or you are using a base-insulated tower?
In any case, short, vertical and uninsulated are the worst conditions for this method.
Marconi antenna? I think this is the first time I've seen a reference to a 1/4 wave unloaded vertical as a 'Marconi antenna'.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.09.23, 10:04:06
...Marconi antenna? I think this is the first time I've seen a reference to a 1/4 wave unloaded vertical as a 'Marconi antenna'.
Take a look at this:
http://www.dxzone.com/cgi-bin/dir/jump2.cgi?ID=24674
WaveWatcher is generally correct (again). Marconi's that're used in Ham operations are often vertical or nearly so.
However, I really don't know if this will work or not:
http://www.g4nsj.co.uk/loop.shtml
--Lee
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2011.09.23, 18:17:36
However, I really don't know if this will work or not:
http://www.g4nsj.co.uk/loop.shtml
--Lee
Don't bother with that one. Any antenna with a galvanic ground will be useless for this purpose.
The best thing to do is find some well insulated wire having a good length and string it up between two trees - high as you can.
you can make some insulators from shellacked hardwood or plastic to isolate the antenna wire from the trees.
This looks like pretty good instructions: http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?instructions-for-putting-up-a-long-wire-antenna,116
You don't need to worry about tuning the length.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.09.23, 23:37:34
You don't need to worry about tuning the length.
Right. The instructions were easy to understand. For the widest bandwidth frequency capture from a wire, you're right: A longer wire means more power.
--Lee
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.09.23, 23:37:34
...This looks like pretty good instructions: http://www.iw5edi.com/ham-radio/?instructions-for-putting-up-a-long-wire-antenna,116 ...
Here's something to use in installation:
http://www.google.com/patents?id=IjJWAAAAEBAJ&pg=PA1&dq=patent:4335386&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=2#v=onepage&q&f=false
Some, or a lot of math, will be needed to try and narrow in on any desired frequency---assuming this aerial is more sensitive than a lengthy straight wire.
--Lee
Lee,
Almost no power can be pulled in from radio signals unless you are very close to a high powered transmitter. There will be much more power collectible from the static charges in the air and on the wire.
If you are using the sparkplug battery charger idea you just need lots of insulated wire strung as high as you can get it. No math is needed unless you wish to predict how well this charge antenna will perform.
The wire antenna with wave traps is pretty common, now. It won't benefit power collection over a simple insulated wire.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.09.23, 10:04:06
Not surprising.
Since a Marconi antenna is vertical and almost always uses a grounded surface as the other half of the dipole this means it is also uninsulated. Unless, it is wire and supported vertically from some point or you are using a base-insulated tower?
In any case, short, vertical and uninsulated are the worst conditions for this method.
Marconi antenna? I think this is the first time I've seen a reference to a 1/4 wave unloaded vertical as a 'Marconi antenna'.
A Marconi antenna is not a 1/4 wave antenna and not specially vertical! The key feature of the Marconi antenna is its length which must be an odd number of 1/4 waves at the operating frequency.
In mine there is a near vertical part of 7 meters and the most part of the antenna is horizontal. The wire is insulated. The available power is on the order of tens to hundreds µW and providing an antenna of such a length at such a height, you will get a power of same order, whatever its shape.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.10.05, 00:51:11
Lee,
Almost no power can be pulled in from radio signals unless you are very close to a high powered transmitter. There will be much more power collectible from the static charges in the air and on the wire.
I read on the Internet that a man installed an atmospheric wire system up his backyard hill/small mountain for 5,000-10,000 ft. in a rural state in the Rockies somewhere. At the top of the mountain he had an aluminum sheet soldered to the wire. It was enough wire to be useful in power generation. Wire isn't terribly expensive if bought in almost industrial quanty amounts.
He implied, by his demonstration, enough wire will give you enough power, even if the wire is reacting to the Earth's magnet field or cloud static electricity or whatever else.
Quote
If you are using the sparkplug battery charger idea you just need lots of insulated wire strung as high as you can get it. No math is needed unless you wish to predict how well this charge antenna will perform.
The patent was merely a demonstrated reference. Frequency harmonics are every number you can imagine on a very long wire. The patent, I admit, was designed for a specific purpose other than this thread's focus.
Quote
The wire antenna with wave traps is pretty common, now. It won't benefit power collection over a simple insulated wire.
The thing I finally realized when I saw another schematic was that frequency traps were what Kapanadze was using in his specialized design. I might take the patent I have to OU.com---or find a thread here---that shows this effectively. Bear in mind, the patented electronic systems were meant to be employed mostly in the telecommunications industry. Kapanadze used them differently.
--Lee
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2011.10.05, 16:10:13
I read on the Internet that a man...
So it is surely true. ;D
Quote
...enough wire will give you enough power...
Independent measurement? What length? What power?...
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2011.10.06, 06:25:34
Independent measurement? What length? What power?...
Rexresearch.com
Article devoted to
"Hermann Plauson"Patent #1,540,998 was issued to him.
(Unfortunately, this borrowed computer I'm using won't let me copy-and-paste an address to the browser's address bar.
Later on another computer.)
I've run into skepticism from others, even with the patent cited above. Some of his balloon contraptions would have been impractical to function, since random wind gusts would thrown his balloons across the sky.
I suggested building an insulated pole system, a couple of miles in diameter, 100-150 ft high, with 10-12 coil turns from the top of the poles.
I don't have the land or money to experiment like this. But, that's my experimental approach.
Ham operators have always said,
"Don't ever tough an ungrounded antenna without grounding is first!" I admit Plauson needed a whole lot more wire to get reasonable amounts of power. Municipal mains generators were largely unavailable in his lifetime. Hence, he needed about 20-30 times the length of wire. At least. I know this.
--Lee
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2011.10.06, 16:13:29...
Patent #1,540,998 was issued to him. [Hermann Plauson]
(Unfortunately, this borrowed computer I'm using won't let me copy-and-paste an address to the browser's address bar...
Here is the patent: http://www.google.com/patents/US1540998 (http://www.google.com/patents/US1540998)
(http://freeenergycommunity.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/fig25.jpg)
The Fig. 25 image from this patent starts at the 7:45 minute mark of this thunderbolts project video:
I like the patent except that the balloons will drift all over the sky. Better to mount the system on a set of land-based poles far away from power sources.
--Lee
Quote from: the_big_m_in_ok on 2013.03.14, 23:08:39
I like the patent except that the balloons will drift all over the sky. Better to mount the system on a set of land-based poles far away from power sources.
Which might be a problem since Plauson is talking about 300 feet of elevation which, today, gets into FAA regulations. Not to mention high winds, thunderstorms, etc.
thx1138 said:
Quote"Which might be a problem since Plauson is talking about 300 feet of elevation which, today, gets into FAA regulations. Not to mention high winds, thunderstorms, etc."
I was thinking of building a power station on the Bonnevile Salt Flats of the Great Salt Lake. Far away from man-made generators, sitting on desolate, desert land that no one uses anyway, propably on Gov't land so that air traffic can be controlled. Poles can be over 300' tall and supported by guy wires. And grounded with lightning arrestors against the rare thunderstorm or two.
--Lee
Quote from: thx1138 on 2013.03.18, 13:30:12
Which might be a problem since Plauson is talking about 300 feet of elevation which, today, gets into FAA regulations. Not to mention high winds, thunderstorms, etc.
There's something else: From distant memory, I recall underground, buried, heavily insulated cable power harvesting methods were patented by individuals in, say, the 30's and 40's.
I can still remember some of the major points in the patent drawings. Some were in a sort of(?) tunnel affair to get aways from the effects of grounding by the dirt overhead of the cable.
The patents in question should still be in the USPTO database.
--Lee
BTW,
I realize this is an old thread I posted to from awhile ago. I only recently returned to the Internet after a lengthy absence. The subject of the thread is still valid, however.