Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.12.21, 20:42:58
Since that winding reverses halfway...
I've always wondered where the evidence was to support that notion. Do you have any?
I've examined those toroids quite a bit in the past, and I've never seen evidence of this.
.99
I don't know how to make it any more clear than the multiple times I've posted the picture with arrows pointing to the reversal.
Maybe once on this forum...
Please see the tag in the lower right corner.
I have no clue why others can't see it.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=355.0;attach=2107;image
Nope, sorry, don't see it.
I've got lots of CM chokes that look closely like the one shown. The barrier serves the purpose of increasing the dielectric path between the two windings. This would have no purpose if the winding merely reversed.
CM chokes must maintain 1500 VAC or more dielectric withstand to meet U/L CSA specs.
From a certain angle you can be led to believe the wires reverse and run through the barrier, but the ones I have do not run through the barrier. I believe it is an optical illusion. The wire on the left merely crunches up and runs over the top of the previous wind, then back down into the center of the core.
Additionally in one short clip, as the unit (SM17) is switched off, a spark is seen to jump between the two windings at exactly that point where you say the winding reverses. This video has been posted by cheapower 2012, and by myself.
A spark could not jump between the two winds if this was just a turnaround. Obviously the dielectric withstand was exceeded due to stored core energy, much like an ignition coil..
Further, I have seen those exact chokes in a surplus store in Phila. in the past, many years ago. I can tell you why the Faston lugs are part of the bracket, and construction details that involve the type of bobbin used.
To each his own, believe as you must, you
may be right, but maybe not. Each man sees what he wants to see and plots his course accordingly. No need to argue, we just speak our own truth.
I posted this a few years back:
QuoteI have seen this type of common mode choke years ago in at least one of the surplus stores I used to visit. They are pulled from equipment complete with leads and mounting bracket.
I can state with almost certainty that they are common mode chokes (two matched dielectrically isolated windings, 1500 VAC minimun per U/L , CSA for 240 VAC line operation) But in SM's application, I don't believe they were for filtering noise because no other parts of the device are shielded in any way and will radiate beyond belief.
The common mode chokes are potted for two reasons; to fix the core to the plastic insulating assembly which is part of the white separator and "washer" seen between the core and the mounting plate and to secure the "flying" leadwires, which were part of the assembly. These devices were made for mounting rigidly to the side wall of a chassis when space on the pc board is at a premium. There might be a "PEM" insert or stud on the opposite face of the mounting bracket or the mounting screw taps directly into the center of the plastic insulator. What is being interpreted as mounting feet are male terminals for grounding by solder or "faston" type disconnects.
Better questions to ask are: why would someone nead a toroidal transformer that has tight coupling between 1kHz and 100 kHz, excelllent turns matching and high dielectric withstand? Which of these features are incidental, which are of prime importance?
these are just a few possible reasons, I'm sure others can think of more:.
1. Signals between the windings are in phase and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband.
2. Signals between the windings are inverted and must maintain electrical insulation in the required passband
3. One side of the core is pulsed, producing a mirror image inverted pulse on the other winding. These identical opposite phased pulses drive "some other parts of the device".
4. A "fringe field" is produced by "bucking the windings". Possibly this is rotated in some manner.
5. This is a cheap way of getting a pre-wound transformer for an oscillator that can be driven many ways (colpitts, hartley, armstrong, blocking ,etc)
6. It is easily biased or saturated with a small weak magnet.
I'll agree with the individual paths part.
The jumping spark was inconclusive to me after hours of trying to see what others saw.
I do know exactly what a CM choke is and have worked with many types of delay lines. I have also performed some emergency repairs on our lab air ionizers. Since they have the same coupling ring (with the same 1/4 inch standard grounding tab made of tin coated steel) I made a wild guess thinking the base was the same.
That would mean SM probably made these devices from standard delay lines (no iron cores), glued them to the coupling ring and coated them with an HV coating.
So....
I suppose you folks can't see the counter winding evidence of the output wires of the big TPU. I think someone attached the name of SM17 to it?
If so, please tell me how both ends of the same winding can come from the inside without the winding reversing. This was another observation I made that seems to be foolish to others.
>> I'll take exception to this because I keep forgetting that the majority think the output winding and the collector are one in the same. While attempting to look at it from that view I see where most would think those two heavy wires were the open end of a 'collector' loop. So, you would never recognize them as opposite ends of the counter-wound output winding similar to other TPUs.
<<
ION,
Thanks for the refresh but I recall the post and many others proclaiming the same.
When 'CM choke' is discussed I understand what folks are talking about related to a TPU.
Sorry, I'm not going to call the sky green due to majority opinion.
When the Tesla coil is in the resonate state the flux is actually getting ripped away from the coil by the intense pressure and connects to a sink. Hence the current flow of the sparks!
Has anybody thought of this? The Flux rips away and reconnects to a suitable sink. The spark trailers are actually conduits of electron flow through the flailing flux lines.
Or is ionization between flux shells?
Put these 2 together...
(http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Steven%20Mark/ltpu/ltpu-center-bundle1b.jpg)
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=355.0;attach=2107;image)
tao,
I did exactly what I shouldn't do and said I wouldn't do. I apologize.
Unless you say otherwise I'll remove my comments myself after I have some indication you've had time to read this.
It is very clear that my opinions are based upon a different set of experiences.
Please continue with the start-stop concept but I suggest that you don't waste any money or time on any coils having more than an air/dielectric core and what you call a collector.
Experiment yourself but I'm sure you already know what I'm talking about.
:)
There are so many clues in the TPU videos, if one has the ability to recognize them. For example, I noticed the Common Mode Chokes were mentioned and I wanted to jump in and agree with ION. Personaly I feel that once their operation is understood, the TPU mystery begins to "dissolve" even further. Ask yourselves, how can the common mode voltage potential be developing?
EM
PS. The dielectric divider is to prevent voltage breakdown. The potting we see in the SM chokes prevent vibration and harmonics from occuring, so is there a problem with these? or just handy chokes he had laying around for audio purposes?
EM,
Thanks for your opinion but it is painfully obvious to me that they are not CM chokes. As I stated before - I know how they work. To me, knowing their operation makes it even less likely these devices are filtering devices of any kind.
At the highest level I am talking about frame dragging to make static charge a relative charge in motion.
Tao definitely has a handle on this and may prove me wrong. I don't really care as long as progress is made.
WW
Quoteor just handy chokes he had laying around for audio purposes
I have to agree with all of you, Tao, Ion, EM, and WW. The obvious thorn in the side is the unused bayonet connectors on the chasis. They are not used therefore the whole assembly was cannabalized and left intact except for the wiring itself. This tells me it is a standard or company part that was modded. We have all done this.
So, EM these could be off the shelf chokes from an audio or power system. And Tao, SM [just] used these as is. After all when they first appear they then keep reappearing on further devices. I saw them in the horseshoe model also.
@WW,
It was I who labelled the LTPU with the moniker of SM17. I saw no other labels at the time so took the freedom.
"Flying leads" potted into the CM core is standard practice when the device is to be chassis mounted rather than PCB mounted. In the US the leads are black and white to reflect the incoming line they are connected to, and to keep the polarity correct. In other countries they may be blue and brown.
In the former case (chassis mount) Faston connectors (spade lugs) are applied to the mounting bracket (chassis ground) which are then routed to the filter board which has the line rated capacitors (type X) and bridge rectifiers etc.
Those of us that have specified and designed these CM chokes into equipment over the years recognize them immediately.
To each his own.
So the first TPUs that did not have the center toroid item are actually [THE] center toroid item.
The obfuscated is becoming obvious.
ION,
I respect your experiences on this matter but mine are different. In my opinion, not less than yours, just different.
As an example: Faston is a name known in this area but not used in the description of connectors. We also call an adjustable spanner (wrench) a Crescent wrench. The 'spade lug' you mentioned, at least in my experience, is not a spade anything. The spade terminations are also known as 'split-ring' or 'forked'.
Panduit is big in this area so the common name here is 'slip-on'. The industry name of the terminal on the small toroid is 'blade'.
I've been known to slip-up and incorrectly use the word 'spade' on more than one occasion so all of it works with a little translation.
To the point, I haven't seen any evidence the device could only be a CMC. Quite the contrary.
This has been the subject of several other threads here and elsewhere. In each the group resolution was these are CMCs. In all I've seen not one part number or picture has been provided of a CMC looking like these. My greatest effort relating to the SM device was to locate a choke looking closely like these SM devices.
Since I have access to almost complete part data going back to the mid 40's I should have found something.
Can you produce a part number, manufacturer or image of these lookalike devices?
Be aware that I consider no CMC shown previously as close to this device. The only items looking close enough to be worth considering are passive spiral delay lines and pulse formers. The latter I've thrown out due to the ferrous core.
There can be no place for any metal inside a TPU except for conductors.
If I designed a CMC to filter the output of my device and it let 5kHz hash through I would have been embarrassed.
This, I'm sure of.
Hi WW
You are correct about the various terms used to describe the grounding connections. Slip-on is one I also remember, and yes, Faston is a registered trade name that became a generic reference.
You won't find these devices with the flying leads in any catalog as they are special order (lead length, color, guage to be specified etc.) You will find the standard printed circuit mount models with the isolation barrier.
"Flying lead" models require the internal potting as the wires are directly soldered to the ends of the winds, so the potting compound provides mechanical stability and an extra degree of dielectric isolation. This makes perfect sense, four wires, four winding lead ends.
I don't believe they were used as filters, which is the common usage, rather, as tightly coupled matched transformer windings for some other purpose.
We all have different life experience and can agree to disagree, no problem.
I'm glad there are people such as yourself exploring other possibilities. Until we crack this, none of us are right or wrong.
This item of reversing the winding at mid point was covered by Wattsup. This is an interesting way to generate a bucking field with one conductor. Or an other configuration for the compwave generation scheme.
In the picture that GK posted, the wires on the choke appear like a black/white pair.
Perhaps this is his bifilar pair to produce the hv kicks. Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.23, 15:27:31
Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.
From the shape and the sharpness of the edges it is either a dielectric, metal core made from coiled banding (this type is always covered with some form of protective insulator wrap or embedded in a plastic casing as in common current transformers) or a coiled/tapered transmission line like design as used in high end passive spiral delay lines.
The blk/wht wires are a very common convention. If I were to build one the way I see it I would have chosen the same colors out of habit without regard for comments on forums or the flying leads common to surface supported CMC.
All really unknown until it contributes to a working TPU.
I should also note that passive delay lines are now commonly potted, including their shorted perpendicular outer winding, due to loose wraps causing distortion in the speaker system. Of course, modern TV sets use digital delay where delay is required but earlier ones used un-potted passives.
See my work bench under small toroid for a little more detail
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.23, 15:27:31
In the picture that GK posted, the wires on the choke appear like a black/white pair.
Perhaps this is his bifilar pair to produce the hv kicks. Core could be dielectric, potted to prevent movement, dielectric between.
WW had posted previous. It should be put on Wattsup's ftp site.
Also the core does look tapered being thinner in the middle. This would focus the energy at an angle away from the horizontal center but give a cylinder type field in then center. Maybe this is how SM got the field to rotate...
All,
We should continue any further small toroid discussion elsewhere. I doubt that component is a critical part of tao's thoughts and work under this thread.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.12.23, 22:21:28
All,
We should continue any further small toroid discussion elsewhere. I doubt that component is a critical part of tao's thoughts and work under this thread.
Agreed. Maybe we can request a move to your "small toroid" thread? or to TPU observations thread.
A place holder for my start of the interruption of tao's thread. I feel we should clean that thread up by moving those posts here.
tao's thread and work is more of a solid base for overall operation while the debate over the small toroid may go on for a long time.
I do wish to continue my workbench thread. Life just doesn't wish to comply.
My argument is pointless until I can share some insights, data and operation. That will require producing more than an opinion.
Keep going guys.
Question: Look at the toroid again. Notice the two wire pairs are of different wire gauge. Why?
The variables are simple.
If the two coils are identical and separate, then the two wire pairs are explained but not their gauge differences.
If the two coils are really one in bucking mode (my opinion since a long time now), then there should only be one wire pair and the second wire pair is not explained, or can be explained by the core having a second internal coil that we do not see. Also, if this is the case, then we can explain that this internal coil is encapsulated by the outer core coating and this then explains why the outer coil wires are seen sort of embedded in the encapsulating material under it.
Man, we iz go'in back some years now. But keep it up guys because your combined experience base may just crack this one big mystery.
Other factors to consider about the Toroid Coil (TC).
FTPU - Had this TC.
OTPU - Had this TC.
STPU - Don't know but I can tell you the STPU center opening was not open at all or see through as we would think. The bottom part of the STPU was fully closed as this is evidenced when he lifted the STPU there was no change in the darkness of the center hole and SM made a conscious effort to not show the center during all his handling manoeuvrings.
6TPU - The TC is hidden vertically on one side of the 6TPU.
MTPU - Had one TC as connected on the FTPU.
LTPU - Had two TCs but this time they were connected in parallel.
wattsup
Could Sm have achieved a specific time delay by the difference in the wire gauges?
Quote from: giantkiller on 2011.12.27, 00:33:38
Could Sm have achieved a specific time delay by the difference in the wire gauges?
GK,
Changes in wire size would have very little effect upon delay times in a passive delay.
Please note: If the typical shorted winding is used it isn't likely the outer winding (the one I see as being reversed half way around). That outer winding, reversed or not, is not something you see on passive spiral delays. I believe it was added to increase the delay times. I planned to cover this method on my demonstration of making low inductance loops, without capacitors, resonate at frequencies magnitudes lower than calculated values.
Are you saying WW that the toroid is a delay line and that there are more windings (orthogonal perhaps) under the ones we can see?
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on 2011.12.27, 14:52:41
Are you saying WW that the toroid is a delay line and that there are more windings (orthogonal perhaps) under the ones we can see?
.99
That is my belief. Furthermore, I believe the 'core' is actually a two conductor tapered strip, the conductors separated by a dielectric film and coiled into a toroidal shape. This is typical of spiral passive delay lines, except for the taper.
I've built a few such devices with good delay results. The over-wrap winding reduces the resonant frequency, apparently in the same way as my earlier experiments in reducing resonant frequencies of planar coils with segmented, alternating over-wrap windings.
This style (see attached), the convoluted spiral, or something else?
.99,
That is an excellent piece of reference material but uses a mechanical effect as the source for much of the delay. Don't throw it out. I think the method used there may be another or the one method used in a TPU for delay and perhaps more.
Using such a delay line may be a good explanation for the sonic level velocities many suspect in a TPU.
I doubt the small toroid uses such a delay line but it is a possibility.
I'm thinking more along the lines of the attached or a combination of both.
I checked on your bench to see if you posted the patent number for that second picture. I didn't see any references, do you have one?
.99
The second pic on my last post with attachments is an example of methods to cancel noise induced into passive delay lines during earlier color TV development.
Spiral passives were used and replaced with linear designs somewhere in the late 60's (according to an old TV engineer friend of mine - now passed on).
At the same time there were color TV's shipped with the new idea of switched-mode power supplies. They generated an incredibly powerful magnetic field which induced current into a number of circuits within the TV. In the worst case, there were a few that replaced the yoke coil with a toroidal design. Between the SMPS and the toroidal yoke there were two nasty internal magnetic fields. One just below 16kHz and another at just over 35kHz.
Patent 4160962 confirmed much of what my old friend shared with me. It may be a good idea to look at the patents listed as reference.
At a minimum the information was interesting to me.
A long time ago, I was playing around with a large coil pulsed with HVDC a wanted to raise it up from the table, so I turned a coffee cup over and placed the coil on the flat base of the cup (white ceramic). This had two effects. The slight pulsing feeling from the coil to my hand slowed down somewhat, and touching the cup itself would give a strong, painful shock. Touching the coil gives only mild discomfort, regardless of the cup.
What if the toroid core is a dielectric (and it appears that SM always used the same type/size) because adding the dielectric increases the magnitude of the effect produced by the bifilar wires? Wrap each pair in the same direction and you have a dielectric storing energy produced by both coils. Recirculating dielectric pump.
First TPU had a single toroid and two "layers", and low output. SM17 had two toroids, so, perhaps four quadrants for rotation.
Grumpy,
Think "Vector Inversion Generator", "Pulse Forming Network" or "Spiral Pulse Generator".
The latter might be considered a Tesla invention.
I used three VIG's on my EMP toy. None of them like any metal near them - unless you are actually trying to change an operational parameter. All of them are most easily built using twin-lead wire. When doing so, stranded wire works best. No ferrous cores are required and actually screw up the performance. All act as delay lines and/or pulse compressors.
Yes, the dielectric plays a huge roll in the operation of any of the above.
The next question might be.... what roll would something like this play in a TPU?
My answer would be.... I don't have a clue, yet ;)
EDIT>>>
BTW: Signals with little to no noise always seemed to be part of the story.
There are variations to the common spiral delay line/pulse generator which can cure the most common issue... triangle output wave with almost any input.
You may Google 'Fast Rise Time' in addition to one of the three devices mentioned above. There is information on how to make the output square wave. And I do mean 'Square'. The wave forming is done by the lumped circuit so there are no switching transients inherent with solid-state switches.
I used fist-sized IGBT's to fire my VIGs. Their output was horrible and pulse widths were sloppy around 50ms.
The same pulses came out of the VIG perfectly square, single digit ns width and no visible switching transients with a 500mHz 1gHz scope. ( I forgot. I modified the scope.)
The VIGs sequentially dumped into the EMP coil arrangement through spark gaps. Nothing else lasted.
Maybe now folks can see why I have a different take on the subject :)
The center toroids on all the TPUs are the same thing. SM even left them mounted to the base with the + & - spade connectors in place. And he never connected anything to the spade connectors. Seems to me he had an inventory from somewhere. Either bad or social(He got his employer to build to spec for his purposes) engineered R&D inventory or off the shelf.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.27, 22:03:16
What if the toroid core is a dielectric (and it appears that SM always used the same type/size) because adding the dielectric increases the magnitude of the effect produced by the bifilar wires? Wrap each pair in the same direction and you have a dielectric storing energy produced by both coils. Recirculating dielectric pump.
First TPU had a single toroid and two "layers", and low output. SM17 had two toroids, so, perhaps four quadrants for rotation.
I've never seen a toroidal coil potted like the ones in SM's TPU's. I have one picture that looks like a potting material was poured in the center and filled the toroid to the very top so that it covered the wires at the top of the core.
The Rob Roy filler I mentioned in an earlier post covers best if you mix it to the consistency of dairy cream. It is really the same as extremely fine ceramic grout.
There can't be many reasons for using such a mess. I would say the main reason was probably because of high voltage. The second is probably to prevent relative motion.
I've seen plenty of toroidal chokes and transformers potted. None with this white stuff. The only memories of similar looking devices were of lamp igniters for HD lamps and an unrelated device that always sparks controversy :D
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.28, 02:19:54
I've never seen a toroidal coil potted like the ones in SM's TPU's. I have one picture that looks like a potting material was poured in the center and filled the toroid to the very top so that it covered the wires at the top of the core.
If it was poured then we wouldn't see the wire bulging out at the half way mark.
I have always been intrigued by this device. Nonstandard but standard.
It is like one was handwound over plastic then coated but wiped down. The remove the wire and cast a mold over the core. This lets the producer inject mold a core of plastic for as many as he needs. This then becomes a guide to wire on and never missing a beat. As to the way its mounted is another story.
I still contend its an audio component of some driver configuration of Spherics audio, where he worked.
So i search...
I find this beauty:
http://www.ferroxcube.com/appl/info/class%20D%20audio%20amplifier.pdf
Are we getting slapped in the face and don't know it?
Last page: http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Overunity.com%20-%20Forum%20members/poynt99/Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.4.pdf (http://purco.qc.ca/ftp/Overunity.com%20-%20Forum%20members/poynt99/Towards_Realizing_the_TPU_1.4.pdf)
GK,
I have serious doubts the small toroid is similar to those shown in your post or that fine document .99 created.
You may be correct about these devices being or designed from audio components. The ESL speaker system uses spiral delay lines.
As for ferrous cores, ferrous cored devices have the speed limitations of the core's hysteresis curve. While more energy can be stored and released from a ferrous cored coil the pulse compression will be less and Barkhausen jumps add noise to the signal.
This is why high-end crossover coils are air cored.
I don't see any of that previous work as a slap in the face. The basic premise follows what I think. If these thoughts are correct the TPU's with only one small toroid or winding equivalent operated with one injection frequency being split into two channels, one not delayed and the other delayed.
Then the TPU's with two small toroids either had one frequency split three ways ( 2 channels delayed, one not ) or 2 frequencies each having a second delayed channel.
The latter would make sense on later TPU's since each set could be used to generate one rotation. SM did say something about rotating two ways, didn't he?
If you search the following: toroid, CM choke, flying leads, potted, you will find a lot of manufacturers that will build to this spec, as it is claimed in their literature. Browse the attached pdf's. I had more info but can't locate it right now.
Somewhere in files I have catalogs of bobbin manufacturers that show a simple mount for a CM choke somewhat similar to the one we see.
Note that a CM choke can be used in audio to null out HF stuff from each channel before feeding to a dual voice coil woofer. This would be handy in early subwoofer applications. Nowadays they are all mostly active with built in amps and filters.
Maybe this will help:
Imagine the leads on this one soldered to the flying leads, then folded up through the center, then potting added for stability.
Quote from: ION on 2011.12.28, 22:42:44
If you search the following: toroid, CM choke, flying leads, potted, you will find a lot of manufacturers that will build to this spec, as it is claimed in their literature. Browse the attached pdf's. I had more info but can't locate it right now.
Somewhere in files I have catalogs of bobbin manufacturers that show a simple mount for a CM choke somewhat similar to the one we see.
Thanks ION.
If you ever locate the one you say is similar I would appreciate the info.
I'm sure I've performed the suggested search multiple times using the web including PartMiner, MilPart Search, etc. The closest resemblance I've found are types used in aerospace, electronic warfare and HID ignition circuits. Only a few had the sharp edges and these were air-cored delay lines.
I found some in the MIL search having the counter outer winding with no explanation for it but these had two planar coils separated by a dielectric layer where we would assume the core was. They were part of a wide-band 35kW jamming device.
Another very odd one was actually a triode tube, 2 leads for the filament, 1 for the grid and 1 for the plate. The outer windings turned out to be cooling fins as part of the toroidal cavity.
This search has led me to some strange places :)
A while back I found a core very similar to the TPU ones, with those sharp edges, and the right ratio of r1/r2 for the two radii, and the height was the same as well, from what I could tell. The toroid was formed by coiling up a strip of ferromagnetic material. I'll have to search for that company again.
I appreciate the attempts to correct my line of thought :)
It seems many of you may think that I'm just not very familiar with the many types and uses of toroidal cores. Please believe me when I say... Nothing posted by others in this regard is new to me and in most cases I have one or more in my junk boxes or part shelves at my home bench. In almost all cases of devices posted I have used them in designs or as cross-referenced replacement parts.
EM,
Of the type you just mentioned I'm quite sure I have a dozen or more of various sizes and designs. I just don't see any valued purpose for a ferrous cored toroid wired to the devices shown. Use as a CMC is incredibly unlikely, IMO. Use as a coupling device is a little more possible but I think not in the way others may.
I really don't think a CMC or a transformer is required or appropriate in a TPU except possibly as parts of a governor circuit. If they are used in such a circuit their sizes would be very small compared to what we see in the pics.
Found this toroidal current transducer here;
http://sentrancorp.com/
If the outer coil was wound afterwards onto this toroid (look at the white one), then using the bucking wind method would make real sense. Also, if you look at the outer coating being a plastic, this would explain why the outer wind started to embed itself. If this is what SM used then for sure he would not want us to see under the toroid, which we never did. The dimensions of the shown white coil is fairly close to SMs. You will never find a standard ferrite core to come close to SMs toroid dimensions. We had spent months on that off and on during these few years. If SM wanted to use a choke, he could have picked from thousands of standard ones. His toroid was not a standard format. Actually 90% of the OU ability could be right in that toroid if you consider the FTPU did not have anything more then that and a few turns of wire.
The point here is that if the core is a current transducer that usually picks up the energy of a wire going through the center hole, then this indicates the transducer has a good enough sensitivity and should therefore be able to pick up energy from a very low level to a higher level. Low level to enable system start up and higher level to withstand an increase and leveling off of gain. The outer wind would then compound the energy imparted to the current transducer. Can't really know for sure unless it is tried so I will look for a few of these coils and do some tests. I know @GK and I have tried with horizontal windings inside and outer bucking coil but our wire awg was way too low.
The other factor I would like to look at is how to start the whole process. Now to start such a process from a near zero position, this goes above my acumen to identify the right component model but I think all you would need is a transistor and 1, 2 or 3 zener diodes of different values. The transistor would have to have three main attributes;
1) The transistor base would only require the most minimal amount of voltage to start switching, possibly in the mV level.
2) The transistor base would also have to withstand a voltage increase to the lowest value zener diode.
3) The transistor will not require heat sinking. (This may be the 20 minute limit.)
If the TPUs all share the same center toroid, then the only other variable here is the coils in the outer ring that will add more inductive (as well as some capacitive) value to the complete process. If the process ran via feedback coils going to the gate of 1 or 2 alternating transistors working like a virtual Slinky Toy, the outer circumference of the ring would in fact be responsible for the overall working frequency, just as SM had indicated the frequency is a function of the circumference of the ring and this only define length and has nothing to do with a circular length.
So, we again should not be fooled by the actual physical shape of the SM TPU, by thinking that this circular form has any advantage on the overall function. Ether energy should not care about shape. Give it a good reason to come in and give it a good place to land and it will. It always does. We just don't yet know how to play the game to our advantage.
Then I am thinking that If SM made the conscious effort to show the video with his ammeter showing highest readings over the toroids. Now why would he show this and for him, why was this so important to see amperage (current) in them toroids. Well if the toroid was a current transducer, knowing about the current at the toroids would be an important thing to know.
Then consider the center of the toroid is epoxy filled. Well you can make a small circular circuit with one or more transistors and embed them in the center then have those four center wires and bingo. If you knew those two wire pairs had different uses, then this would give you a good reason to vary those wire gauges. Then for the LTPU you parallel two toroids to increase the overall output amperage.
But of course, these are all theories that remain to be tested.
wattsup
The TPU cores have that high voltage dielectric separator, and to me that is a dead giveaway that it is a common mode choke of sorts, or a transformer with high isolation.
However, as important as each component's identification is, the real question is how does the TPU work and get TUNED to the right frequency? What is the nature of the tank circuit? Is it acoustic in nature? Is it an LC tank circuit? Some of these questions can be answered with the clues we glean from the videos and letters.
In my attempts to understand the TPUs, I usually chase a few theories down, and do a "curve fit" on what I know and can identify and the possible options. I always try a top down approach, from the general to the specific.
Don't give up guys, we'll get it eventually. What has me concerned is the fact that a few of you already had "working" TPUs but you did not know it because you did not have a signal to tune into.
What good is a RADIO without a STATION to listen to?
EM
What i see in the OTPU is a ferrite core inductor under the magnets in each leg, i have posted this a few times previously, if you pulse a ferrite core inductor and compare the results to one with a magnet against the ferrite the results are interesting, the stronger the magnet the squarer the resulting waveform hence the more odd integer harmonics included, they are nothing more than pulse to harmonic generators/filters IMHO
Quotesquare waves contain a wide range of harmonics; these can generate electromagnetic radiation or pulses of current that interfere with other nearby circuits, causing noise or errors.
Quotethe square wave contains only odd integer harmonics.
Here's my previous post on this, although i previously came to the conclusion it was magnetic rectification, i now know otherwise ;D
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=38.msg237#msg237
So, is the small toroid located at the input or output of the controller?
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.12.29, 07:01:32
What i see in the OTPU is a ferrite core inductor under the magnets in each leg, i have posted this a few times previously, if you pulse a ferrite core inductor and compare the results to one with a magnet against the ferrite the results are interesting, the stronger the magnet the squarer the resulting waveform hence the more odd integer harmonics included, they are nothing more than pulse to harmonic generators/filters IMHO. Here's my previous post on this, although i previously came to the conclusion it was magnetic rectification, i now know otherwise ;D
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=38.msg237#msg237
@Peterae
Regarding the post you mentioned above, please know that under that magnet, which is on the right hand side of the output speaker terminals, there is NO LEG as we thought for a long time that the OTPU had four legs, but it only really has two legs plus a vertical circuit board that also acts as a leg to hold up the OTPU at three points. The left leg has a removable sheath over it and the hind leg is tapped over to hold it permanently in that position. The fact that the left leg was not tapped over like the hind leg and the fact that the same left leg has a sheath over it indicates to me that SM used it for quick battery placement.
Guys, just think that SM made his devices for 90% deception. The OU aspect of his device is so simple that he had to mask it up with all these peripheral do-dads to take your attention away from what really matters. After all his own livelihood was at stake here. It was so simple that when SM made the STPU, all of a sudden everything was built into a nice compact small toroid looking device although the STPU was not a real toroid in that the center was not open. I mean you can make a very simple working OU device and then adding extra wire lengths to make it look way more complicated then it was is a very easy thing to do and the lengths we are talking about would not make a dent on operational parameters but for the viewer, this makes the device seem much more elaborate then it really is.
He makes the FTPU and says "no electronics". That's easy to say if your electronics are hidden under the center toroid epoxy. He then makes the OTPU and shows this circuit board that he even points to and says something like "control here". Then all of a sudden he makes the STPU that obviously does not have that circuit board but in all builds, he always uses the center toroid.
I think SM found one effect and once you start stripping away all the superfluous things that do not appear in all the TPUs, then you will start to get a clearer picture. The center toroid and some outer winds appear in all the TPUs. With the "squeezing a hose" analogy, we all automatically thought this was relevant to the outer rings that we designated as collector/control coils. But if the center toroid was like I mentioned in my previous post, then that bucking coil pulsing on such a current transducer type coil is exactly that, squeezing a hose.
Lastly is a question of how you would expect to find OU. You can invent and build a completely new set of components that never existed before, or, you can take existing components and use them in totally new or different ways. Either way has the same potential for OU discovery and for me, I think SM found a new way to use existing components. That center toroid is not available as a ferrite core because the dimensions are just way out of what is being produced, even during SMs day in the mid 90s when checking the Radio Shack catalogs of the day, which I did for days and days. There is no ferrite that is manufactured in that format and the reasoning for this is very simply. That much ferrite mass would require a heavily would coil to even start making some type of saturation and the outer toroid winding bucking coil on such a large mass would be like a mouse playing on an elephants back. Or like someone jumping on a concrete trampoline. The bounce will not happen.
Maybe one last thing about frequencies-resonance-coil combos, etc. You can make the most elaborate coil set you want. One primary, splits to two more primaries, that comes back to another primary that splits to three more primaries thus making a very complicated coil set. But regardless of how or how many coils you use, there will always be one frequency that you will find to maximize the inter effects. There will always be a frequency and in that regard, taking a bucking coil and winding it over a current transformer coil is a rather simple pairing of two coils and there will be many frequencies that will maximize their inter-relationships. I think SM found this one source of gain and then played it up to these TPU looking devices so his small secret would stay safe. And, I think the OU is in the toroid and no were else. The outer coil winds are simply adding more inductance to his process hence he is moving around more power as his devices increase in size, but the base method is the same.
Last, last, last thing. OK, the center toroid. try and go back to all the SM analogies and talks and descriptions, etc, etc. Show me one place where SM specifically talks about the center toroid. I cannot think of one occasion. He never mentioned anything about the center toroid. Is that not a little bit like "identification by omission". lol
wattsup
Hi wattsup
The inductor i speak off is not in the leg it's sandwiched between the top and bottom ring sourounded by magnets.
G
If i am right it would be the harmonic generator, quick pulse one side would give odd harmonics on the output ready to feed to the coils for mixing, why generate 35kHz and the 3rd harmonic using separate electronics if it can be done by a saturated inductor, also it's dead easy to feed the output back to the input, really what i need to do is do the experiment again now i have a spectrum and try feeding it's output back to it's input to see how the spectrum gets affected.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.12.28, 22:24:37
As for ferrous cores, ferrous cored devices have the speed limitations of the core's hysteresis curve. While more energy can be stored and released from a ferrous cored coil the pulse compression will be less and Barkhausen jumps add noise to the signal.
This is why high-end crossover coils are air cored.
It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.
.99
Quote from: poynt99 on 2011.12.29, 17:25:02
It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.
.99
Bingo. We don't want saturation. The air core would enable the slinky effect in the outer field while we have a pulsating pressure in the resonate field.
Tesla coils are air core. Like Wattsup alludded to 'the ferrous material would be a sticking place for the energy'.
QuoteThe bounce will not happen.
Ferrous would have the field stuck inside with low startup and bounce would never occur outside. The ampmeter in mid air shows this activity outside.
The center toroid cores could be wood with a plastic epoxy casually wiped over the whole assembly. Almost like a wooden lamp section. To this day you can still go to hobby stores and find wooden beads used like this.
The toroid's have very square edges, when winding this is not good, if they were made of soft material they would more than likely round in the process or if wood you would think he would have taken the edge off.
If they were premade items and hard like ceramic then he would be stuck with the sharp edges and need to lay a soft layer on top, IE conformal coating of latex.
Ferrite toroid's are pre rounded, but some ceramic toroidal magnets are not
Quote from: poynt99 on 2011.12.29, 17:25:02
It is my understanding the reason high end speaker cross-overs use air-core inductors, is that they are always linear and can not be saturated.
.99
/
That also. In addition, no iron losses, higher Q (with the right designs) and maybe more. They also have several drawbacks.
It seems that the lack of chance for saturation distortion and good linearity with fewer losses (if the DCR is low enough) would all be good things in a TPU.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.29, 16:29:43
So, is the small toroid located at the input or output of the controller?
My answer would be - The circuits driving it are fed from the TPU output ( of 2 out of the three collectors, in some cases ) while main output current is fed through the outer reversed winding (self-detuning on overload condition - a TPU should be a constant voltage device - IMO).
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.12.29, 17:04:35
Hi wattsup
The inductor i speak off is not in the leg it's sandwiched between the top and bottom ring sourounded by magnets.
G
If i am right it would be the harmonic generator, quick pulse one side would give odd harmonics on the output ready to feed to the coils for mixing, why generate 35kHz and the 3rd harmonic using separate electronics if it can be done by a saturated inductor, also it's dead easy to feed the output back to the input, really what i need to do is do the experiment again now i have a spectrum and try feeding it's output back to it's input to see how the spectrum gets affected.
Could the small toroid(s) be just part of a DC-DC converter to convert the output to lower voltage dc that his controller operated on?
I met an old former TV repairman on OU a long time ago. He claimed that he recognized the pair of toroids and base in the center of SM17 and that it was just an old type of regulator. Even after repeated asking, he would not elaborate on it more than to repeat that is was just a regulator.
G I have never seen one of these in any of the TVs in the UK and i had been in the game from valve to hybrid up to flat screen, the only thing i will say is that one of the kap devices uses a large coke in the power unit from a TV, pulses are thrown into it and the energy is stored in the choke it then gets filtered and a feedback loop goes back to the driver to adjust the pulse width for the energy demand.
So i guess it could be a power converter yes.
This image is strange i could have sworn i had a picture of the center toroid with spade connections to the center wires, i will try to track it down
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=355.0;attach=2107;image)
Regulator - Power Converter?
Yes. Both plausible.
The outer reversed winding would be ideal to weaken the amount of stored energy and/or modify the delay in the spiral delay -or- just a spiral inductor. This could easily modify pulse width - if a delay line or peak output voltage - if only an inductor.
I'll see how effective both ideas are Asap.
OK here's my picture, if you look carefully you can see low power spade connectors on the black center wires(maybe just because it's a bit more blurry then i guess, they look like half the width of car spades once used in some TVs.
I dug out a picture of the FTPU core, sure looks like the center portion steps inwards so the wires that go vertical are not touching the center material of the toroid.
Bottom left you can see the manufacturer's mark on the plastic case JC??? then a blob of conformal coating, I wonder why that coating would be there, he would not have wound the coils while on the plastic case, probably gave the round plate a coating and then glued the coil assembly on top
Quote from: Peterae on 2011.12.29, 22:09:18
OK here's my picture, if you look carefully you can see low power spade connectors...
'Male Blade' connectors. Notice there are two for each coil. One large and one small. >> This reference is to the base of each coil (as most believe). I'm quite sure those are part of the lab air cleaner. The coils were probably glued to those plates as an afterthought. Normally, such plates are used to connect remote radiator nodes.
>>OOPs! I see what you are talking about - the connections to the wires. To me those look like heat-shrink over soldered connections but whatever works.
Quote
Bottom left you can see the manufacturer's mark on the plastic case JC??? then a blob of conformal coating, I wonder why that coating would be there, he would not have wound the coils while on the plastic case, probably gave the round plate a coating and then glued the coil assembly on top
To me that 'JC???' is just more of the sloppy material drizzled out of place. When you look at the rest of the TPU you will see the same stuff almost everywhere mechanical strength might have been questionable, where wires may have vibrated and perhaps where electrical insulation may have been an issue. That material dries to a fine ceramic (if I am correct about what it is).
Besides, the manufacturer's name is on the label, underneath. ;) AFAIAC that black box with convection cooling vents is a dual polarity lab air cleaner. The big polycaps are cobbled to the exposed circuit board (underneath) - probably to solve some EMI issues or improve the feedback supply to the ionizer.
----------
I checked the regulator idea on one of my VIGs. More later...
Well, well, well, now let's take a look at the FTPU at the rear side of the center toroid we have these two wires again. The same ones beside the JC.
This is exactly what you would expect if the toroid core was a current transformer, it would have two wires coming out the bottom like in the picture I posted previously.
wattsup
Wattsup,
Thanks for your work!
I would like two more wires to be found. That would nail it down for me. I need six conductors from this little toroid to help solidify my thoughts on how a complete TPU functions. I suspected those spots were wires back in 2007 but gave up on it since no one else mentioned it. I'm still not convinced they are wires since they have only been publicly suspected as wires - twice now?
BTW: You will never find a CT with such a low secondary turn count.
Luckily, I save almost everything.
I have four separate files of emails, PM's and posts from this person. He had a great deal of uncanny insight, for a person that just showed up out of the blue and jumped into the TPU swamp.
Here is what he said about the "stuff" in the middle of the large TPU:
Quote
Well, what I am saying is what I always have been saying, that just as the inventor says that the signal and the power are the same.
To me this means the excitation comes from the signal itself.
You don't have to add any excitation at all.
See all my other posts on this.
This is what makes the device so simple.
I wish I had my control engineering books here, but they are in a storage locker in Colorado.
I could scan some control regulator schematics and show you what the inventor is trying to do with the current transformers.
He is trying to control the output of his larger unit to maintain a constant output.
Thats what those coils and the electronics do in the middle of the large unit.
I see that this coil regulator control system he has, has caused a lot of confusion.
Many people seem to think this is some kind of excitation set up for the coils.
Well it's not.
I know I won't be able to convince everyone about this, but as an Instrument tech of 35 years, I am betting that from what I see and from the inventors description of the device, that electronic equipment in the middle of the coil is a current regulating controller set up and nothing else.
If others disagree, then I guess we will just disagree and leave it at that.
This current regulating system is, in my opinion, side tracking the real heart of the understanding of the coil (s) themselves.
The coils themselves is where the real story is.
I am trying to help
Now, many years later, I think this old guy was right on the money!
I just got myself two of these here;
http://www.ebay.ca/itm/Simpson-Electric-Company-01297-Current-Transformer-/330596583620?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item4cf91788c4
So I will start testing soon enough. lol
My target model will be the FTPU to start with. It is not important to have the outer winds on a wire reel.
If the CT (horizontal) and the Bucking Coil (BC) (vertical) can inter-pulse, this would be SMs analogy or question of having a magnetic ball turning in two directions, then he asks what would happen. Well of course, the first would impart to the second and the second would impart to the first.
@WaveWatcher
Well you now have the six wires. Two pairs from the top and 1 pair behind. This will be a major step indeed.
wattsup
Wattsup,
Next time you feel the need to purchase a CT please just send a PM. My wife is after me to clear out some of my stash. In many cases fellow OUR members could have one for the price of postage.
Since most of the mass is iron the postage may be higher than the part value.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.12.30, 12:14:22
Wattsup,
Next time you feel the need to purchase a CT please just send a PM. My wife is after me to clear out some of my stash. In many cases fellow OUR members could have one for the price of postage. Since most of the mass is iron the postage may be higher than the part value.
Well, myself I am thinking of "ebaying" (new verb - lol) some of my stuff out of here because space is really becoming a problem.
@GK
I would like to bring back something I was looking at so many months ago that was around the same angle of thought but then the core was not so visualized. The question of SM and sound and speakers. Well he knew speakers very well. He was always looking at these speakers, the voice coils, the speaker magnets and all the other parts of a speaker, he knew them well. Now what if he one day started to think about the speaker magnets, maybe saying to himself that this one component really stinks because it has only one setting. That is, a magnet is a device that only has one output setting. Then taking that further, this speaker magnet would be very interesting if in could vary the magnetism around the voice coil and just keep the voice coil itself at one setting (or even having it as a variable as well). Like reversing the two components' responsibilities. OK, voice coil you get only this and magnet, let's play around with you now. So if a voice coil and a variable magnet are inter-energizing with each other, then maybe that bucking coil can start to really buck out some juice. Maybe while he was investing this type of action, he discovered something else.
So you pulse the CT, but where does the CT pulse come from? It can come from an internal Voice Coil(s) (VC) to gate(s). The CT pulse energizes the core, the core becomes a speaker magnet, the speaker magnet moves the VC, the VC pulses the gate. While this is happening, the bucking coil picks up output, sends some through the emitter/collector via a zener so the CT pulse has the energy it needs. The whole process is in a loop. Again don't know............yet. But thinking out loud is not bad.
I can only see everyone having a great New Years with great things to come in 2012, in a just and perfect manner.
wattsup
I recently occurred to me, based on SM's comments and such, that he did not know where the extra energy comes form and thought that his combination of pulses, one delayed, somehow tuned to this magical signal. Like some sort of hidden signal that can only be tuned to by some indirect means.
Of course, .99 got the spike to show up on a sim, so it's just a spike, and the spike in combination with the rest, makes the magic happen.
Grumpy,
You are the best one to answer this question....
Let us just say for a moment that it was possible to send a pulse down a line. The pulse width and line length are such that you have the opportunity to open the power source switch before the rise of the pulse reaches the end of the line. Of course this would require nanosecond rise time, pulse width, fall time and virtually no ringing.
Would the transmission of that single pulse appear as conventional current or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on that same line?
Then, the same scenario except that single line is now a twin-lead transmission line with both ends in an open state.
Would the transmission of that single pulse on one of the conductors appear as conventional current through that conductor or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on the twin conductor of the transmission line?
I know the reality of both scenarios but I'm speaking of the hypothetical conducting path where the pulse fits easily within the length of travel, no switching transients and no ringing.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.31, 03:00:23
I recently occurred to me, based on SM's comments and such, that he did not know where the extra energy comes form and thought that his combination of pulses, one delayed, somehow tuned to this magical signal. Like some sort of hidden signal that can only be tuned to by some indirect means.
Of course, .99 got the spike to show up on a sim, so it's just a spike, and the spike in combination with the rest, makes the magic happen.
I have to wholeheartedly agree here. And that thump can be used. It fits in with Wattsup posted prior.
Also,
My motto is 'I get my orders at 2:42am and my ideas when I step into the showers'. Don't know why, it just is.
So today's session was a real mind blower for me.
The spark has always haunted me. Today I did not see it as a conduction path but as a crack or opening in the aether revealing the hidden potential in the vacuum. Sounds like Bearden, i know. But the thought just rang true with all I have consumed of OU. We can cause a high speed potential to split the force that holds atomic structure together to peer into the unlimited energy that keeps the pressure on all that we are. When a wire cuts a flux shell the wire gets current. When a Telsa coil is resonating the flux shells break off and connect to physical conductors letting potentials balance. We get a conduction in space. That is what humans call it for we have a very limited standard of measurement. Outside of that, the spectrum of balance can show us a different view of the reality of matter that is really just another gathering of potential.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2011.12.31, 03:44:36
Grumpy,
You are the best one to answer this question....
Let us just say for a moment that it was possible to send a pulse down a line. The pulse width and line length are such that you have the opportunity to open the power source switch before the rise of the pulse reaches the end of the line. Of course this would require nanosecond rise time, pulse width, fall time and virtually no ringing.
Would the transmission of that single pulse appear as conventional current or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on that same line?
Then, the same scenario except that single line is now a twin-lead transmission line with both ends in an open state.
Would the transmission of that single pulse on one of the conductors appear as conventional current through that conductor or would it manifest itself as a change of charge on the twin conductor of the transmission line?
I know the reality of both scenarios but I'm speaking of the hypothetical conducting path where the pulse fits easily within the length of travel, no switching transients and no ringing.
Unfortunately, the direction to "open the switch before the current flows" has permeated the universe without an accompanying explanation for "why".
In your first scenario, the line is closed, the pulse will not manifest as conventional current. The pulse is a traveling wave of denser medium, which can appear as a change in charge without supplying those charges. Surface area of the conductor increases the amount of change in charge. I have not seen ringing or any reflection, but then my scope is 300 MHz, and the wire very long (1300 feet).
In the second scenario, it will reflect at the end of the line and current will flow as it charges the dielectric. I use one of these to shut off my avalanche stack.
Grumpy posted this from an unknown person:
QuoteWell, what I am saying is what I always have been saying, that just as the inventor says that the signal and the power are the same.
To me this means the excitation comes from the signal itself.
You don't have to add any excitation at all.
This is a possibility that should be explored. Is it possible that the right configuration of coils with a slight DC biias nulls out the normal magnetic field of the earth and allows electrons to circulate and wind up out of the thermal noise possibly due to some effect of gravity and the earth spin, quite possibly a coriolis type effect.
Pulsing coils may not be the answer to the "fire that feeds itself". SM alluded to all of this and gave many hints (if we are to believe any of it).
What has always intrigued me is the slow windup time of the TPU's or "turbine effect". I believe this to be a major clue. Maybe just creating the correct conditions allows the effect to wind up. Preferred pathways are slowly established in the conductor creating the windup effect. Perhaps similar to the "cup of hot chocolate" effect.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2011.12.31, 16:46:30
Unfortunately, the direction to "open the switch before the current flows" has permeated the universe without an accompanying explanation for "why".
I think I know why.
The main difference between the static charge on a conductive surface and a potential permeating a conductor before current flows is motion.
One way to prepare a surface with a charge is electrostatic induction (no magnetism required). I don't recall SM stating you must drag your feet on a carpeted floor to ignite a TPU. This leaves the worst case scenario for Faraday induction - source and target orthogonal to each other. This cancels the magnetic coupling. For maximum effect it also requires that the source be 'many short wires' side by side covering the entire length of the target conductor.
All that, with the shortest pulse possible so energy isn't wasted beyond the outer diameter of the TPU, will only give you a very short lived static charge on the target conductor. This is useless without motion.
It is not possible to rotate a magnetic field about the axis. There would be no point in trying.
I doubt this terminology will suite many but you can cause a charge gradient to rotate. Using familiar terms (for TPU folks).... Raising the hose would be applying a charge to a collector set. Squeezing the hose would be pumping that charge around the collector set.
Thoughts still forming - being thrown out and forming differently. The cycle continues.
Without motion, you will only get a surface charge effect. The energy will not soak in and very little current will flow below the surface and this is only diffusion or a reordering of charge. This is the "charges conductive objects" effect. Motion itself is not the entire answer, as energy has a frequency to it. Umm, not like a carrier frequency but a "variable rate". "Pulsation" is the best term that I can think of. A very very very high rate of pulsation. You can pulse coils at any rate and you get a very nice charging effect, but it's not good for much.
Now this is clear a mudd and almost useless. What the Hell am I talking about?
The energy of a circuit flows into it from the environment around it, then back out at the load. All of our means of creating the imbalance that allows this to occur require physical work. We move charges, or other objects. All that is required though is to imbalance the energy that is already there. Pulses work in the right scenario, but the pulsation rate imparted to the aether is very high and has to be slowed way down. If you slow the pulses down, you don't get the high density.
Every heard of the Joe Cell? Few have every noticed that it uses the same energy that every electric circuit uses, only it is passive once started. It collects the energy, the aether, or whatever, and then whe it discharges it implodes the run your engine. It only sounds like magic, but it has laws and all that like everything else. A Joe Cell will discharge with a flashless bang when too much "stuff" is accumulated. Sound familiar? Quite interesting, but it accumulates too slow to be used as an electrical power source.
Wow! Thow the Joe Cell into the mix and everyone stops posting! :D
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.01.02, 14:09:31
Wow! Thow the Joe Cell into the mix and everyone stops posting! :D
I am familiar with the Joe Cell but it has nothing to do with my apparent silence :)
My bench hasn't cooled off in the last few days.
With my version of the small toroid I can't understand why we swapped to SS delays & saturated core pulse transformers so soon. I'm using the visible winding as a negative magnetic bias. You can control the pulse compression and delay with DC current applied but it takes a lot of current.
I have more questions now than before.
There may be a way to increase velocity with sine applied to the visible windings.
More checks & facts are needed before I become very talkative ;)
Just wiped out almost all of my USB gizmos again.
I know how to isolate circuitry. Anybody have some good working tube based test equipment?
Using the high-end Maxim USB isolation scheme did last longer than others >:(
I switched to wireless usb last year.
So I received two of these CTs.
I'll keep one as is and rewind the other as per my SM toroid mapping I did years ago (lol).
This CT is a Simpson Model 01297.
You can see it on page 63 of their nice pdf catalog.
http://www.simpsonelectric.com/uploads/File/PanelMeterCatalog_Jan09.pdf
The CT ferrite is very close to the SM toroid dimension, this one is slightly thinner core but there are many core sizes in this type of CT .
wattsup
Added: This discussion was interesting.
http://www.control.com/thread/1026235833
Quote from: ION on 2011.12.31, 19:06:09
Grumpy posted this from an unknown person:
QuoteWell, what I am saying is what I always have been saying, that just as the inventor says that the signal and the power are the same.
To me this means the excitation comes from the signal itself.
You don't have to add any excitation at all.
This is a possibility that should be explored. Is it possible that the right configuration of coils with a slight DC biias nulls out the normal magnetic field of the earth and allows electrons to circulate and wind up out of the thermal noise possibly due to some effect of gravity and the earth spin, quite possibly a coriolis type effect.
Pulsing coils may not be the answer to the "fire that feeds itself". SM alluded to all of this and gave many hints (if we are to believe any of it).
What has always intrigued me is the slow windup time of the TPU's or "turbine effect". I believe this to be a major clue. Maybe just creating the correct conditions allows the effect to wind up. Preferred pathways are slowly established in the conductor creating the windup effect. Perhaps similar to the "cup of hot chocolate" effect.
That quote is from username "Newton007". He was a retired teacher of radio and tv repair (high school level (US)). Strange fellow. He had moved to Colorado and kept saying that he could have to move again at any time. Like he was moving from someone or something. He made several warnings about a consortium he referred to as the "tiger" and how thay had "sharp teeth and claws", and said that I should fear and distance myself from them. He had a theory that the TPU was not pulsed directly and that the signal that excited it was also powered by it, so that it fed itself and could run-away if not detuned. He had other theories about energy from the sun, how the solar system worked, and turned me onto the book "Electric Sky".
G:
I still have an intuitive sense of rightness regarding what I wrote in that text last December.
The control circuitry may only be required to maintain the correct bias field and "tame" an otherwise runaway effect.
Glad to see someone is still interested in this.
Are there any clues in "The Electric Sky"?
Quote from: ION on 2012.07.17, 02:30:58
G:
I still have an intuitive sense of rightness regarding what I wrote in that text last December.
The control circuitry may only be required to maintain the correct bias field and "tame" an otherwise runaway effect.
Glad to see someone is still interested in this.
Are there any clues in "The Electric Sky"?
Electric Sky is interesting, but not sure any clues are there. I haven't opened it in a long time. This book delves into some new explanations for things going on in the universe. Hmm - I'll have to look again. http://electric-cosmos.org/
Newton007 was looking for a passive way to induce rotation of a magnet - we used a compass. We each set up an experiment with shorted coils on large plastic tubes and the theory was that when the shorted coils were spaced apart at just the right distance, with the coils horizontal - tube vertical, then the compass would rotate. Most we ever got was about a degree or two of deflection. However, makes you wonder about the spacing between SM's top and bottom coils, and if this distance was adjusted or arbitrary.
The book "Electric Sky" leads to a paper by Hannes Alfven in 1948, which leads to a very interesting experiment with a pool of mercury and a magnetic field which leads to the "magnetohydrodynamic wave":
It has three characteristics: it produces (1) mechanical motion, (2) a magnetic field, and ( 3 ) an electric field
http://www.catastrophism.com/texts/electricity-in-space/
then there's all of the particle drift stuff...
read a little about magnetohydrodynamics and then you wonder if there is an electric version and there is: electrohydrodynamics
Then there is "aether hydrodynamics"...way out on the fringe!
No fringe here...
QuoteIn addition there is strong evidence that gravity and mass itself is dependent on electrical charge
Also shown is mars then venus then saturn is an alignment. What has been falsely indentified is venus. It sits in the same postion as the asteroid belt.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f3/InnerSolarSystem-en.png)
QuoteThey have flat bottoms with conical central cones. The strata of the central peaks are undisturbed in many so-called impact craters
Same desolation pattern as Tagunska:
Quote
June 30, 2008: The year is 1908, and it's just after seven in the morning. A man is sitting on the front porch of a trading post at Vanavara in Siberia. Little does he know, in a few moments, he will be hurled from his chair and the heat will be so intense he will feel as though his shirt is on fire.
That's how the Tunguska event felt 40 miles from ground zero.
Today, June 30, 2008, is the 100th anniversary of that ferocious impact near the Podkamennaya Tunguska River in remote Siberia--and after 100 years, scientists are still talking about it.
"If you want to start a conversation with anyone in the asteroid business all you have to say is Tunguska," says Don Yeomans, manager of the Near-Earth Object Office at NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory. "It is the only entry of a large meteoroid we have in the modern era with first-hand accounts."
(http://apod.nasa.gov/apod/image/0711/tunguska_kulik_big.jpg)
Above: Trees felled by the Tunguska explosion. Credit: the Leonid Kulik Expedition. [more]
While the impact occurred in '08, the first scientific expedition to the area would have to wait for 19 years. In 1921, Leonid Kulik, the chief curator for the meteorite collection of the St. Petersburg museum led an expedition to Tunguska. But the harsh conditions of the Siberian outback thwarted his team's attempt to reach the area of the blast. In 1927, a new expedition, again lead by Kulik, reached its goal.
"At first, the locals were reluctant to tell Kulik about the event," said Yeomans. "They believed the blast was a visitation by the god Ogdy, who had cursed the area by smashing trees and killing animals."
While testimonials may have at first been difficult to obtain, there was plenty of evidence lying around. Eight hundred square miles of remote forest had been ripped asunder. Eighty million trees were on their sides, lying in a radial pattern.
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"Those trees acted as markers, pointing directly away from the blast's epicenter," said Yeomans. "Later, when the team arrived at ground zero, they found the trees there standing upright – but their limbs and bark had been stripped away. They looked like a forest of telephone poles."
Such debranching requires fast moving shock waves that break off a tree's branches before the branches can transfer the impact momentum to the tree's stem. Thirty seven years after the Tunguska blast, branchless trees would be found at the site of another massive explosion – Hiroshima, Japan.
Which way do sparks fly from an electrical short? Hot plasma exiting.
QuoteAs above, so below
The Bible.
If only mankind would look at events and items with this mindset would we all be set free.
QuoteOne of the attributes that separates the human from the animals is our yearning to know about our world and our sky - to wonder about the cosmos and have a desire to find out how it works and what is up there. Another attribute is that we do not like to be told things that are untrue and have these ideas forced on us by people who claim to have superior knowledge and intellect. We have been told that we average humans are not capable of really understanding the cosmos - that it is inhabited by mysterious and invisible forces and entities that only impenetrably abstract mathematics can explain. We are told to just passively accept whatever the 'experts' tell us. We have become so intimidated by how complicated modern science has become that we throw up our hands and say, "You're the experts - we'll believe what ever you tell us." And they say, "That's good, because our continued funding depends on your feeling that way." What will the reaction of the taxpaying public be if and when they realize the full extent to which they are being bilked by the scientific power-structure?
Educated lay-people have abdicated their responsibility to think proactively and ask the questions that will keep science honest. It seems we would rather just lie back and believe whatever we read in "Discover" magazine. If 'they' tell us black-holes and dark matter exist - so be it. The public has become enthralled by the magic show that astronomy, particle physics, and some other sciences have become. Why does every TV 'science' program have background music that is more appropriate for a sci-fi horror movie? And a narrator's voice that sounds like God? The public apparently enjoys the magic, mystery-tour aura of most of present day science 'shows'. The ship of science, captained by astronomy and astrophysics, is not just steering a wobbling course - it is miles off track and it is intentionally laying down a smoke screen - implying that modern science has to be counter-intuitive and mysterious. The astronomical world badly needs a reality check. The challenges embodied in these pages constitute just that.
The present day peer review system determines which proposed research projects get funded and which do not. It also determines what results get published and which do not. At first it seems very sensible that any scientific field should be able to keep 'quacks and crack pots' from being funded and published. However, when any given area becomes controlled by 'experts' who have accepted a deductively arrived at theory, they tend to see any alternative data or proposed hypotheses as 'crack pot'. When those who steer the ship of science refuse to allow alternative hypotheses from even being discussed or investigated, let alone published, it is little wonder we are wildly off course. The general public thinks of science as always looking for new ideas. The sad truth is: it does not, certainly not in astronomy / cosmology. What it does do is constantly seek funding from friendly peer reviewers.
When we think about the travesty the Roman Catholic Church perpetrated against Galileo (waiting until late in the 20th century to admit it) we feel superior. WE modern folk would never ignore and suppress a scientist in that way! No? Then how about astronomer Halton Arp who was denied access to Mt. Palomar and refused publication of his work because the present day high priests of the Big Bang Power Structure found the publication of his photographs embarrassingly contradictory to their well-funded dogma? Would it not be educational to realize that we have just screwed up again - big time!
If the Electric Star hypothesis is even partially correct, there is no guarantee that the Sun will continue to shine for millions of years as we have been assured by the experts. What anxieties will this realization engender in a scientifically semi-literate public? But, it may be reassuring for them to know that Earth has much less to fear from a near collision with an asteroid or comet than they now think. Why have billions of tax payer dollars been used to support "accepted" solar fusion models and the Big Bang but none invested in any alternative ideas, however worthwhile they may be?
The fundamental challenges that are described in these pages contain the most potentially explosive ideas ever to have been issued in science. They constitute a cosmic reality check for the entire intellectual community. There is almost no field of academic endeavor that will not be affected in some way (or even overturned) by these ideas. Areas of science that refuse to honestly address these questions will become irrelevant.
Will it take another several hundred years (as it took Galileo) to gain official recognition of the validity of these challenges from those who presently occupy Fortress Science? Will it ever happen? I don't know. But does it have practical importance? You bet your pocketbook it does. The eventual outcome depends on the public's attitude - do you want the expensive magic show to continue - or do you want honest answers from science?
Pride is our science...
reading a little on magnetohydrodynamics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetohydrodynamics
I never knew that Faraday had attempted to measure this current:
QuoteThe ebbing salty water flowing past London's Waterloo Bridge interacts with the Earth's magnetic field to produce a potential difference between the two river-banks. Michael Faraday tried this experiment in 1832 but the current was too small to measure with the equipment at the time, and the river bed contributed to short-circuit the signal. However, by the same process, Dr. William Hyde Wollaston was able to measure the voltage induced by the tide in the English Channel in 1851.
======================================
and electrohydrodynamics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrohydrodynamics
I found this to be "peculiar", keeping in mind that the aether has been suggested to be a sea of charges immersed in a dielectric:
QuoteElectrohydrodynamics (EHD), also known as electro-fluid-dynamics (EFD) or electrokinetics, is the study of the dynamics of electrically charged fluids.[1] It is the study of the motions of ionised particles or molecules and their interactions with electric fields and the surrounding fluid. The term may be considered to be synonymous with the rather elaborate electrostrictive hydrodynamics. EHD covers the following types of particle and fluid transport mechanisms:Electrophoresis, electrokinesis, dielectrophoresis, electro-osmosis, and electrorotation. In general, the phenomena relate to the direct conversion of electrical energy into kinetic energy, and vice versa.
In the first instance, shaped electrostatic fields create hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric media. When such media are fluids, a flow is produced. If the dielectric is a vacuum or a solid, no flow is produced. Such flow can be directed against the electrodes, generally to move the electrodes. In such case, the moving structure acts as an electric motor. Practical fields of interest of EHD are the common air ioniser, Electrohydrodynamic thrusters and EHD cooling systems.
In the second instance, the converse takes place. A powered flow of medium within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the system which is picked up as a potential difference by electrodes. In such case, the structure acts as an electrical generator.
Quoteshaped electrostatic fields create hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric media.
This is known with regard to biefeld brown, if the asymmetric dielectric has something like salt water flowing through it then it will be propelled, i thought of using a brown cell well insulated to pump things like oil ;)
No moving parts in a pump are beneficial, never got round to more complex tests or salt water.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.17, 19:18:27
This is known with regard to biefeld brown, if the asymmetric dielectric has something like salt water flowing through it then it will be propelled, i thought of using a brown cell well insulated to pump things like oil ;)
No moving parts in a pump are beneficial, never got round to more complex tests or salt water.
The same principles can be applied to rotate virtual particles and develop a generator.
Shaped electrostatic fields create hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric media.
A powered flow of medium within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the system which is picked up as a potential difference by electrodes. In such case, the structure acts as an electrical generator.
QuoteA powered flow of medium within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the system which is picked up as a potential difference by electrodes. In such case, the structure acts as an electrical generator.
The important thing about a powered flow is to access a free flow maybe wind or salt water, i am hesitant to believe there would be much potential or a very efficient power conversion, i guess one could build an anode/cathode setup like a lifter and try it in wind to see if there if there is any power added, i am also not sure how the extra energy would manifest, if these problems were understood and the energy gained was fed back into the system then maybe a self powered propulsion system maybe viable 8)
QuoteIn the first instance, shaped electrostatic fields create hydrostatic pressure (or motion) in dielectric media.
This is how I pumped water through clear plastic tubing for my 8th grade science fair project. The water was lab quality from the science lab.
For years, classmates and teachers kept asking me how I faked it, even with the five page report on how it worked. I haven't seen any of the old contacts in years -- probably dead by now :P
QuoteA powered flow of medium within a shaped electrostatic field adds energy to the system which is picked up as a potential difference by electrodes. In such case, the structure acts as an electrical generator.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.17, 21:59:07
The important thing about a powered flow is to access a free flow maybe wind or salt water, i am hesitant to believe there would be much potential or a very efficient power conversion, i guess one could build an anode/cathode setup like a lifter and try it in wind to see if there if there is any power added, i am also not sure how the extra energy would manifest, if these problems were understood and the energy gained was fed back into the system then a self powered propulsion system maybe viable 8)
or a self-powered generator, or both!
Find a very cheap way to create the flow. Passive methods are ideal, but not easy to figure out.
Better than looking for another energy source...
rotate stuff, get current at electrodes
GK
A sincere thank you for the comment on the "electric sun", seems the new nasa research vehicle in space is rediscovering very old and discarded news,and explaining some very perplexing anomolies .
Magnetic ropes forming between the sun and the earth on a regular basis,coming and going in seconds or minutes?[how cool is that!!]
http://www.thunderbolts.info/webnews/121707electricsun.htm.
seems there is a lot to discover ,also seems that fluids, electricity and magnetism are very interesting places to play!!
Have a great day!!
Thx
Chet
Has anything come to light on these mysterious centrepieces?
Thought I'd ask as its been a while.
Quote from: szaxx on 2016.08.03, 22:53:56
Has anything come to light on these mysterious centrepieces?
Thought I'd ask as its been a while.
..
Everyone has a different opinion regarding what the toroids are.
My opinion: Since SM worked in the speaker design business at Spherics Labs as Chief Engineer, he must have looked at methods of combining channels for a subwoofer system, which in those days were not amplified and merely the sum of the two channels with HF info removed from the woofers.
Spherics Labs did sell passive subwoofers with a pair of satellite speakers for the HF.
This is accomplished with a toroid choke with two windings. After much searching I found the attached pdf.
I do know from communication with Jack Durban that a lot of stuff was tossed out when Spherics Labs folded and Stephen did grab a lot, e.g. the plastic rings for the open TPU were part of the speaker grill assembly for the floor standing "pipe" speakers. Also speaker connection terminals can be found on the open TPU.
That's my guess. Occams Razor
Regards, ION
Thank you for the reply ION.
It all seems to have been over complicated, the razor gives this away lol.
I'll continue reading etc. Perhaps the whole system is hiding in plain sight.