This experiment is really astonishing: http://www.wimp.com/gyroscopicgravity/
My question is: if the experimenter was weighed, would we see a decrease of the weight when he is holding the device with only one hand and the device rotates above his head?
nice!
the guy twists the gyro about the vertical axis (the output axis), in the direction it wants to precess anyway, due to the torque about the horizontal axis created by gravity (the input axis).
However, since he tries to speed up the precession rate, the gyro reacts and wants to twist and elevate its angle, so there is an upward force at the end of the shaft that takes some of the weight, so the guy then only has to supply a smaller force to keep the same elevation angle at zero, or horizontal.
Question #1: Is there an energy gain in this process?
I don't think so, because the twisting occurs over a much bigger distance with a smaller twisting force (spiral motion and his hand twisting the shaft) than the vertical distance traveled and his hand pushing up, so input energy into the system is equal to output. This is simply a form of "gear ratio" or mechanical leverage, but done with gyroscopic principles instead of gears and levers.
Question #2 Can we create a flying aircraft based on this principles?
Maybe! 8)
EM
PS The guy says in the video that this "has been missed" by everyone, and that is not so. These gyroscopic principles have been known for hundreds of years, and the way they react when twisted used in many designs.
I am sure anyone who has played with a gyro has experienced the same thing, if you spin a gyro toy up in the horizontal position attached to a string it has a tendency to rotate clockwise if i remember here in the UK, it finds a slowish rotational speed to maintain a horizontal level position, if you help it rotate faster the unattached end lifts, if you slow it the unsupported end falls, it has a natural tendency to want to remain horizontal, NOTE it must be started in the horizontal position it seems to maintain this orientation, if it was started vertically it would need loads of energy to make it horizontal.Which is what makes them brilliant for navigation.
As he said there's enough energy to hurl it 200 feet into the air, so there's also enough energy to raise it a few feet.
The faster he rotates the faster it would want to raise, that's why when he got it high enough all he had to do was stop himself rotating and it fell, so the question would be, how much energy did he use to turn one full rev to allow the weight to raise, and how much to stop himself turn for it to fall, might be able to build a prototype water lifter to see, if the flywheel had a payload of 2 Kg of water and he turned faster then it would probably lift the weight and the water, release the water into a top storage vessel etc...
The guy in the video is Eric Laithwaite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite)
I have several lecture videos, and some of his published work. He was a brilliant engineer .
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.05.26, 18:05:51
I am sure anyone who has played with a gyro has experienced the same thing,
...
Surely not. The only interest of this video is that it is not a simple gyro. It is a strong asymmetric gyro that shows new effects due to its very long and unusual axle.
Quote from: Chef on 2012.05.26, 19:39:38
The guy in the video is Eric Laithwaite. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eric_Laithwaite)
I have several lecture videos, and some of his published work. He was a brilliant engineer .
Thanks for the link. Very instructive.
The demonstration was done with a long shaft to show us how unlikely it is that he can hold the end with so much weight at the other end. The torque would be huge!
Given a 40 lb weight 3 ft out from the pivot point, the human hand could not produce the necessary torque in the wrist to hold it horizontal. It could hold it only if there was no torque, just the weight. However, because the gyro processes, it generates the torque to keep itself up and the guy only has to provide the linear vertical force to counteract the weight.
Here's a basic question: does the gyro generate a TORQUE? or a FORCE that produces a torque when the axis is pivoted?
From what I remember, the gyro produces a TORQUE, because if it produced a FORCE upwards, it could carry it's own weight, and that would be like anti-gravity! which is not possible! lol >:-)
EM
PS, I added the picture below. Which is it, case 1 or 2? The guy seems to say the gyro is "as light as a feather" implying case 1, but I don't believe it! >:( It's case 2 for sure! where the hand supplies only the counter force to the weight due to gravity (F_gravity) and does not have to provide the moment, which the gyro provides. What do you all think?
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.05.26, 21:43:38
...
PS, I added the picture below. Which is it, case 1 or 2? The guy seems to say the gyro is "as light as a feather" implying case 1, but I don't believe it! >:( It's case 2 for sure! where the hand supplies only the counter force to the weight due to gravity (F_gravity) and does not have to provide the moment, which the gyro provides. What do you all think?
The counter force to the weight is 40 pounds. He is not likely to lift it anyway.
Most likely he speed up the precession faster than its natural precession.
I don't understand how this could be considered new. It is nothing more than a gyroscope on an extended shaft.
A toy gyroscope has the same action. Just extend the axis to see the same results. My eighth grade science teacher had a gyro on a pencil. Once spun he could hold it simply by letting the pencil point rest on the tip of his finger. The gyro precessed around the support point.
BTW:
Say what you wish but the weight of the spinning wheel is only partially felt by the person supporting the non-spinning end. Throw all the math at it you want but perform the experiment before hand.
I played a lot with a gyroscope when i was young, they fascinated me, there's only so many experiments you can do and attaching the gyro to a pencil was one of them, ex are you saying that the scientific comunity know nothing about what is shown in the video, i am not saying i understand the theory about why it happens but at the age of 10 or 11 i came to the conclusion eventually that i could find no free energy or find a novel use for what was observed, and yes i was that Young when my interest was raised in such things.
There was a TV program on from 6 in the morning in the UK called open university, not that i ever understood much of the stuff but there was one particular program that always stayed in my mind, there was an old guy sitting at a desk with an array of bulbs, he flicked a switch and they all lit up, this was a demo of free energy, i wish i could remember his name, i was too young to fully understand the implications of what i was seeing, the other thing the same show aired was a globe, it had 2 spinning weights one at the top of the globe and one about 10 o'clock on the globe, they stated that when both weights were rotated that a magnetic field was produced, this may have been an explanation of the effect used to light the bulbs or it may have been a totally separate experiment, i would say this was in the mid 70's
I to this day do not understand why these were shown on TV as these programs were norally heavily scientific with sound theory, the programs were there for people to study at home and gain scientific qualifications, maybe someone older than me in the UK knows of the devices i speak off.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.05.27, 03:08:37
I don't understand how this could be considered new.
Watch the video.
Quote
It is nothing more than a gyroscope on an extended shaft.
"A lever is nothing more than a balance with an extended shaft".
And nevertheless it has new properties, as the capacity to raise heavy weights with a light force.
Quote
A toy gyroscope has the same action.
...
Gives us references of a gyroscope toy whose the weight is apparently reduced when hold by the end of its axle.
You missed the point. A gyro just opposes to any angular change of the direction of the axle.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.05.27, 08:25:58
I played a lot with a gyroscope when i was young, they fascinated me, there's only so many experiments you can do and attaching the gyro to a pencil was one of them, ex are you saying that the scientific comunity know nothing about what is shown in the video,
It's a possibility. Rather strange, because the video dates from the 80's. But it is a fact that there are not practical applications with gyros with extended axle (at my knowledge). It is likely that such an arrangement would have a practical utility in some cases. So it's not impossible that this gyro configuration has not yet been studied.
Quote
i am not saying i understand the theory about why it happens but at the age of 10 or 11 i came to the conclusion eventually that i could find no free energy or find a novel use for what was observed, and yes i was that Young when my interest was raised in such things.
There was a TV program on from 6 in the morning in the UK called open university, not that i ever understood much of the stuff but there was one particular program that always stayed in my mind, there was an old guy sitting at a desk with an array of bulbs, he flicked a switch and they all lit up, this was a demo of free energy, i wish i could remember his name, i was too young to fully understand the implications of what i was seeing, the other thing the same show aired was a globe, it had 2 spinning weights one at the top of the globe and one about 10 o'clock on the globe, they stated that when both weights were rotated that a magnetic field was produced, this may have been an explanation of the effect used to light the bulbs or it may have been a totally separate experiment, i would say this was in the mid 70's
I to this day do not understand why these were shown on TV as these programs were norally heavily scientific with sound theory, the programs were there for people to study at home and gain scientific qualifications, maybe someone older than me in the UK knows of the devices i speak off.
I confess that I don't know what to think about that. Until now, I considered that all old stories of strange effects were only urban legends. I now think that the most of them are urban legends, by far, but that some rare ones could escape from this rule. I have never seen elsewhere the effect shown in Laithwaite's video. I don't understand that we don't find explanations somewhere, and that some physicists who discuss this matter now on another forum are very surprised themselves and unable to give the solution.
To be honest ex i am amazed this is not known about from a theoretical point of view.
The devices i spoke about were shown to work on this university program, so i wonder what happened to them, the elderly guy, Grey hair and quiet chubby was wearing a white overall and sitting behind a desk demonstrating an array of light bulbs, i could see no external power sources but then i could see no transformers or wires so it must have had the electronics inside the box of the light array , i cannot remember the exact number but it was a square array, maybe 5 x 5 bulbs all lit, he spoke in a very scientific manor, but i was too young to understand what he was saying.
I have never ever seen this device since.
Not surprising it has disappeared, i have seen numerous inventions that could have revolutionised the world, disappear in thin air even when they were proved to work, how's this one, again late 70's maybe early 80's a guy invented a liquid that when drunk would cancel any alcohol in the blood stream, the guy had previously drunk alcohol prior to the test, he blew into a bag to show he was over the legal drive limit, drank this liquid and a few minuets later blew into another bag and he was clear of all alcohol in his blood stream. boy i could have done with a few of those in my younger days ;D
Then there was a guy who invented another liquid which when sprayed onto an electric drill, the drill could then be immersed into a bowl of water and still work without electrocuting the chap holding it.
and recently a guy invented a liquid and repels heat, he sprayed some onto an egg and took a blow torch to the egg, after a short time he removed the blow torch and held the egg and said it was cool, he then cracked it to prove it was still raw, he died shortly after and never had a chance to reveal what the formulae was.
All these things were shown to work but for various reasons have never come to light :'(
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.05.27, 10:27:59
and recently a guy invented a liquid and repels heat, he sprayed some onto an egg and took a blow torch to the egg, after a short time he removed the blow torch and held the egg and said it was cool, he then cracked it to prove it was still raw, he died shortly after and never had a chance to reveal what the formulae was.
I saw that show when I was working in Peterlee, UK O0 There was talk about NASA looking into it..
Ex,
I watched the video and there is nothing new. The 'apparent' weight of the object drops considerably. This is related to the problem with balancing rotating objects.
Under many circumstances the placement of a balancing weight must change depending upon RPM. The effect is like the mass of the balancing weight lags behind the rotational position of the balancing weight.
To solve the problem, dynamic balancers were developed.
Perhaps this is new to scientists but it is not new to the rest. My story of the gyro on a pencil happened long before the video was produced.
To logically see if the weight is "apparent" and that it always remains 40 bl is easy. Hold 40 bl in your hand and swing it like he does. lol Even if the energy comes from angular momentum of the gyro, we still have something new.
I reproduced Laithwaite experiments at a small scale. Here is a photo of my gyro. It is stopped but I noted the parameters.
http://tinyurl.com/dxcrcpt
The caption in English:
"Clockwise rotation of the gyro viewed by the operator
+
Left rotation in a horizontal plane around the operator's fingers
=
Upward force
If the second rotation is made toward right, the force is downward.
The effect of heavier or lighter weight is strongly felt."
So here's my design for a vertical lift space craft 8)
3 motors each motor has it's own battery on board, 2 of the motors have flywheels while the 3rd motor spins a horizontal bar which has the other 2 motors and flywheels attached.Motor 3 will need a gearbox to slow the rotational speed down.
I made a mistake on the diagram both flywheels need to be clockwise not opposing :)
If it was this simple surely someone has already tried it.
The problem would be stopping the bottom plate rotating and this is where i see the problem, unless maybe a duplicate of the drawn device was attached under the plate with the flywheels rotating CCW
As a kid, i knew the flywheel would want to rise, but i always thought that the flywheel weight was still acting down from the pivotal point, in other words if the plate was weighed although the flywheel raises the plate will still register the same weight it did before the flywheel raised, i just realized the above video was done also with it handed to a child to hold so therefore the flywheel really must loose weight, or to put it another way, ex is off building a craft as we speak :)
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.05.27, 14:39:41
So here's my design for a vertical lift space craft 8)
3 motors each motor has it's own battery on board, 2 of the motors have flywheels while the 3rd motor spins a horizontal bar which has the other 2 motors and flywheels attached.Motor 3 will need a gearbox to slow the rotational speed down.
I made a mistake on the diagram both flywheels need to be clockwise not opposing :)
If it was this simple surely someone has already tried it.
The problem would be stopping the bottom plate rotating and this is where i see the problem, unless maybe a duplicate of the drawn device was attached under the plate with the flywheels rotating CCW
As a kid, i knew the flywheel would want to rise, but i always thought that the flywheel weight was still acting down from the pivotal point, in other words if the plate was weighed although the flywheel raises the plate will still register the same weight it did before the flywheel raised, i just realized the above video was done also with it handed to a child to hold so therefore the flywheel really must loose weight, or to put it another way, ex is off building a craft as we speak :)
It will appear to loose weight but only if the device is allowed to precess in the correct direction. It should appear to gain weight when it is forced to precess in the wrong direction.
I'm pretty sure that is correct. Last time I performed the experiments I think I was about 20.
Ex,
Thanks for bringing this subject to discussion.
For years I've been trying to obtain an answer to a question with the responses ranging from ridiculous explanations of how a compass works to Riemann's zeta function.
I'm thinking now how this same effect is the same as two others....
1. When a simple magnet has a vertical trajectory relative to the surface of the Earth it reacts with a preferred vertical polar alignment. I'm thinking this action may be due to spin and gravity rather than magnetic attraction/repulsion.
2. When two magnetic hemispheres are forced together in magnetic repulsion and have a vertical trajectory no preferred polar alignment is seen but the fall velocity is less compared to an identically shaped and weighted but un-magnetized object. If you consider that each magnetic field is an indicator of many magnetic domains (gyroscopes) and the two hemisperes are in opposition (opposition in spin) then less apparent weight results.
Basically, a magnetic domain is also a gyroscope.
I'm working on enough to argue the point with myself.
I've taken a different approach to "solving" the mystery of this video.
I went to the gym and tried to lift a 40 lb weight. Don't laugh, but I could not raise it up with one hand over my head like the guy did! :-[
maybe the gyroscope does loose weight :-\
EM
PS In physics this problem is stated as the rate of change of angular momentum is equal to the torque, and this is done with vectors. For example: a gyroscope spinning in the x-axis and offset from the pivot, is subjected to a torque produced by its weight times the lever arm distance. This torque vector is in the y-axis, if the horizontal plane is defined by the x-y plane. Now, since the torque vector is in the y-axis direction, the gyroscopic precession occurs in that direction and is obviously proportional to the weight of the gyro and the magnitude of the torque. So if we have a heavier gyro or the lever arm is farther out from the pivot, the precession speed will be more rapid. It is important to know that no matter what we do to the axis of the gyro or how we twist it and turn it, we do not affect the energy of the spinning gyro. The only thing that can slow down the gyro wheel is frictional losses. Now think about this, if we speed up the precession speed by applying the proper torque to the axis, the gyro would have that speed if it would have been heavier, but since it is not, it can lift itself up, either by producing a force upwards, or producing a torque that pivots and pushes down on the pivot and therefore lifts itself up. It's the Case 1 vs Case 2 above. Either one would produce the same results, but it's important to know if its a force of if its a torque that produces the forces when it pivots.
I think I've detected some fraud in the video. When he weighs the shaft and says that we can tell by his voice that it is heavy, listen and watch carefully how he changes his voice to sound like he is exerting himself, but he starts to change his voice BEFORE HE EVEN LIFTS THE WEIGHTS. This is all a show I'm afraid, and most likely the weights are not even 40 lb but perhaps much lighter so he is using a fake scale to weigh it.
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.05.28, 06:10:36
I think I've detected some fraud in the video. When he weighs the shaft and says that we can tell by his voice that it is heavy, listen and watch carefully how he changes his voice to sound like he is exerting himself, but he starts to change his voice BEFORE HE EVEN LIFTS THE WEIGHTS. This is all a show I'm afraid, and most likely the weights are not even 40 lb but perhaps much lighter so he is using a fake scale to weigh it.
You have a very twisted mind. C.C This experiment was performed by Laithwaite at the Royal Institution too. ;) He was not exactly like RomeroUK or other scam artist. I suggest you to read about Laithwaite ad his work, before you accusing him making fake videos! ???
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.05.27, 03:08:37
Throw all the math at it you want but perform the experiment before hand.
There is no fraud in this video. There is no need for fraud. Take my advice above before making that claim.
EMDevices, Get a real gyro and play with it. You'll see there is no fraud in that video if you have played around with a fast spinning gyroscope. You can easily have a gyro attached to a string at one end when spinning and it will stay horizontal as long as it's spinning fast while only being held by the string at one end with nothing to support the other end.
I think the part that confuses most is that the center of gravity always shifts from the center of the spinning mass to the point of support.
The length of the shaft means almost nothing because all of the mass weight is at the point of support (less the weight portions being translated by other motions).
I believe the officially accepted explanation is that no weight is lost or gained. It is simply shifted to another location.
QuoteI believe the officially accepted explanation is that no weight is lost or gained. It is simply shifted to another location.
Which is exactly the conclusion i ended up with.
Looks like someone already built my UFO and his conclusion was it does not work
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.05.29, 05:48:07
Which is exactly the conclusion i ended up with.
Looks like someone already built my UFO and his conclusion was it does not work
Don't give up on this one. : )
Several things wrong with his approach...it's not robust enough, mainly. I would bet the reason those little motors don't work is they are too weak to fight the angular momentum of the spinning gyros attached, thus binding the axle up against it's bearing. So the reason they stop working is likely their small shafts lock against their bushing...and there's not enough force left to turn them. Also, he didn't spin them the other direction...such would have isolated it to the bearing and not some 'ether' lock (why do people think that's involved when it's just probably friction?)
The video's guy's experiment is one I've wanted to do for years, but lack the (mountable) flywheels or gyros to do it. If you take a toy spinning gyro and put it at 45 degrees and move it in an arc, you'll get a visceral feel for something that sure feels funky. : )
Laithwaite also demonstrated this with (I think) a 50 pound motorcycle wheel before the Royal science group... (the one that exiled him after for believing in this).
There are not many I believe in the "anti-grav" field...but Laithwaite is one and T Townsend Brown is the other.
rc
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.05.28, 16:12:10
EMDevices, Get a real gyro and play with it. You'll see there is no fraud in that video if you have played around with a fast spinning gyroscope. You can easily have a gyro attached to a string at one end when spinning and it will stay horizontal as long as it's spinning fast while only being held by the string at one end with nothing to support the other end.
Yes there is no fraud. And I am almost convinced that the "Laithwaite effect" is the same gyro effect that you show us, but inverted.
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1465.0;attach=7987;image)
A gyro having a horizontal axle whose the end is placed on a pivot, turns around due to precession, as on your picture. This happens only if the gyro is submitted to a vertical force (gravity) that exerts a torque in a vertical plane onto the gyro axle.
Inversely the action of forcing a rotation similar to the precession, exerts a torque onto the gyro axle, and so, it goes up or down depending on the rotation direction.
To clearly show this effect, I have attached the end of the offset arm of my gyro to a flexible piece that is fastened to a ball bearing having a vertical axis secured to a heavy base (around 7Kg).
The horizontal rotation can last much more time that the gyro rotation.
Depending on the clockwise or anticlockwise direction of the rotation launched by hand, the gyro flies up or down and maintains its altitude during several turns before slowing.
It seems that there is no change of weight. Although I have weighted my system, I can't confirm this point 100% because my weighing machine was not very sensitive (0.1 Kg).
Imho we have not a vertical force acting onto the gyro, but a torque, and consequently the gyro weight is transfered to the pivot point which in the Faithwaite's experiment, is his hand.
I'm almost convinced that his hand supports all the weight, but the torque that tends to raise the gyro compensates the ordinary torque caused by a weight at the end of a long arm, and consequently his hand can hold the ensemble because the force is now vertical and doesn't twist his wrist.
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.05.29, 01:17:25
...
I believe the officially accepted explanation is that no weight is lost or gained. It is simply shifted to another location.
I agree (see my previous post, question of torques that compensate one another).
Quote from: Chef on 2012.05.28, 09:09:13
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012-05-28, 07:10:36
I think I've detected some fraud in the video.
You have a very twisted mind. C.C This experiment was performed by Laithwaite at the Royal Institution too. ;) He was not exactly like RomeroUK or other scam artist. I suggest you to read about Laithwaite ad his work, before you accusing him making fake videos! ???
@chef
O0
and in spite the presentation was spectacular, the effect seems finally conventional.
AG
I agree,i personally think he needs larger flywheels to get some real mass moving, if there is any weight loss it will be more apparent with larger weights and as you say his motors were not up to much.
It's interesting following this thread as the experimentation with gyro's is fascinating to say the least.
I can see that Laithwait did something interesting in that he seems to lift the weight quiet easily when spinning and somewhere when i first read the thread i found some text saying he had a little boy lift it as well, now if that can be proved then there must be something interesting going on which merits further builds.
I would suggest to anyone to use aircraft modelling motors and pwm motor drivers with a pic chip pwm generator and lock the speed of each flywheel using an rpm sensor/opto reflective, if this thing does loose weight then each parameter can be adjusted including the precession rotation speed.
Some years ago i played with a 12volt motor, it was not very large and had a very small shaft about 2mm diameter but quiet a large body for it's size, i was over running it at between 15-20 volts and the gyro effect became very pronounced at high revs, when placed on the floor it kept jumping onto the end of it's shaft and standing up, it could not stop it doing this, I'm not saying it lost weight but that it preferred to have an upright attitude with the large motor body up in the air with the whole weight of the motor bearing down on the spinning shaft end which was the opposite to where you would find it's center of mass, it was as if the center of mass had shifter to the end of the small shaft instead of the body where the real weight was.
There is a u-tube collection of one public lecture which included the boy.
I think the weight was around 15lbs.
---------------
Yes, the COG for the spinning mass relocates but that COG shift includes the mass of the rest of the device....gyro support, rod, bearing, etc.
All fascinating.
Just as interesting is his story of ridicule by his peers for bringing to light something that wasn't fully investigated nor all the correct math developed. I understand he and a colleague finally did develop the proper math before his death. Last I heard was those corrections are still not published in text books.
I've also play with gyro before. I would agree with the weight change experiment we did in here. However, I still don't think he could lift that 40 pounds easily. The experiment or the way we think is purely one axis precession. The way he did looks to me it involve 2 axis precession at the same time.
I throw chuks, that is nunchuks. Really fast spins, horizontal and vertical. When you get the precession just right the orbits seem weightless. This also about the time most people hit themselves. LOL. ;D
This process also lets you learn and gauge destination and speed coordination with your body in the middle. That being, the sticks can be [sent] to a destination behind you , out of sight and connect at point. The handoff symmetry, where he lifts the axil in a circular spire, that Laithwaite showed is right in synch with the precession he was experiencing.
But I have yet to see a really good chuker lift off. :o
Quote from: giantkiller on 2012.05.29, 22:25:33
But I have yet to see a really good chuker lift off. :o
You have yet to see me 'chuk' myself in the one spot I kept hitting. It was always enough for lift-off :D
Laithwaite didn't show the same kind of strain.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.05.29, 11:44:39
...
I would agree with the weight change experiment we did in here.
...
Which weight change? Did you have weighted a precessing gyro? I did it. Null result.
There is not one measurement showing it, in spite that the effect is strong. There is no upward force, there is only a torque applying onto the gyro axle, it's very different from a single force and well explains what we observe.
FYI...
http://www.gyroscopes.org/patents/5860317LaithwaiteDawson.pdf
I Think he died which is annoying as he only lived 50 miles from me in that patent.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.05.30, 07:00:20
Which weight change? Did you have weighted a precessing gyro? I did it. Null result.
There is not one measurement showing it, in spite that the effect is strong. There is no upward force, there is only a torque applying onto the gyro axle, it's very different from a single force and well explains what we observe.
lol
The delta weight is 0, but as I said, it may involves 2 torques. I used to tie a toy gyro to a string and weight, but it is very sensitive unless you make a big one. The best is to build one as big as his and feel it yourself. lol
@exnihiloest
QuoteImho we have not a vertical force acting onto the gyro, but a torque, and consequently the gyro weight is transfered to the pivot point which in the Faithwaite's experiment, is his hand. I'm almost convinced that his hand supports all the weight, but the torque that tends to raise the gyro compensates the ordinary torque caused by a weight at the end of a long arm, and consequently his hand can hold the ensemble because the force is now vertical and doesn't twist his wrist.
yes, I'm glad we are of the same opinion on this. The gyro develops a torque, not a force, which is case 2 in my previous diagram. So the guy has to lift 40 lb with one arm, and unless he is super strong, that's pretty hard to do.
QuoteI detected some fraud...
Sorry guys, maybe "fraud" was too strong of a word.
However, we are watching a VIDEO obviously, and it's meant for entertainment purposes. Or perhaps it was meant for education through entertainment, but nonetheless,
he starts to change his voice BEFORE he lifts the weight, and frankly that's dishonesty, or simply lying, a small white lie but a lie nonetheless. It shows an intent to deceive, and if he is deceiving in this small mater, what's to say the scale is not fake? meaning the weight is perhaps only 5 lb ?
Does that change how gyros work? not in the least! I invite anybody to go to the gym and lift 40 lb with one hand!
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.05.30, 20:33:57
@exnihiloest
yes, I'm glad we are of the same opinion on this. The gyro develops a torque, not a force, which is case 2 in my previous diagram. So the guy has to lift 40 lb with one arm, and unless he is super strong, that's pretty hard to do.
Sorry guys, maybe "fraud" was too strong of a word.
However, we are watching a VIDEO obviously, and it's meant for entertainment purposes. Or perhaps it was meant for education through entertainment, but nonetheless, he starts to change his voice BEFORE he lifts the weight, and frankly that's dishonesty, or simply lying, a small white lie but a lie nonetheless. It shows an intent to deceive, and if he is deceiving in this small mater, what's to say the scale is not fake? meaning the weight is perhaps only 5 lb ?
Does that change how gyros work? not in the least! I invite anybody to go to the gym and lift 40 lb with one hand!
EM
40lb. with one hand isn't a problem for me.
If you ever have the chance, lift a spinning gyro of sizable weight as he did. You will be shocked how easy it is. IMHO he didn't need to fake anything. It should have happened exactly as he shows in the video.
The thing about such a setup is that the COG is transferred to the supporting structure. This can be the bearings, shaft, your hand, wrist, elbow, shoulder and back. His arm didn't lift 40 pounds throughout the stunt.
You can bet he and his forty pound gyro total weight didn't change but his arm didn't need to lift 40lbs. through the whole process.
Think about it. Structurally, there is little difference to the gyro between a supporting rod and the person holding it.
This is why I used the word 'apparent' when referring to weight changes.
I read the document that Chef posted on page one of this topic. This guy did a lot of experiments that I have not heard of and were NEVER thought in school, and I took a whole year of CALCULUS based Physics and a whole year of STATICS and DYNAMICS for engineers.
I am extremely fascinated by the behavior of the gyro when hung from a long string as shown in the last two pages of that document that Chef posted. It seems to describe the "Bohr atom model" because there seem to be stable "orbits" that it prefers.
Another very interesting behavior seems to be the lack of centrifugal forces resulting from precession ! It's very interesting! I will try to analyze the first picture I posted below, to understand why it tilts like it does.
Also, he had a little child lift a 24 lb force, and even at arms length, holding a 24 lb weight is hard to do. Yes the gyro transfers its weight to the pivot but still, 24 lbs is hard to hold in your hand at arms length.
EM
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.05.30, 22:27:11
Yes the gyro transfers its weight to the pivot but still, 24 lbs is hard to hold in your hand at arms length.
It transfers its COG near to wherever the pivot manifest itself. It doesn't stop at your hand. If you stiffen your hand and wrist the weight is at your elbow, etc.
Gyroscopes are interesting with no fancy experiments. The most interesting fact I know about them is so few of the upper scientific crust think it is fascinating that COG can be transferred.
After all, it is just a rotary form of a lever but science typically doesn't do well when things go beyond static. They would rather scream 'Heretic' than resolve any possible questions, unless funding is available to do so C.C Then, they will research the most ridiculous crap until the money is gone >:(
[edit:] not relevant
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.05.30, 22:06:34
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You can bet he and his forty pound gyro total weight didn't change but his arm didn't need to lift 40lbs. through the whole process.
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There is only one possibility to transfer the weight to the ground and get the reaction force preventing the device to crash: through the pivot point.
See experiment #
12: http://gyroscopes.org/1974lecture.asp
The gyro is mounted on a spring. When it turns horizontally, we don't see any rising (contrarily to what Faithwaite says, but I'm not sure to well understand him). This proves that the horizontal rotation of the gyro is not followed by a weight loss on the pivot point.
The linear vertical bearing rose on the spring as precession began and only for a brief moment. I would like to see an experiment showing how the transition of COG functions and flows.
So, applying a force doesn't always create an equal and opposite opposing force. Sometimes, the opposing force is normal to but not equal to the applied force.
It does sound a bit like electromagnetism :)
;D Kirchhoff vs. Faraday - Newton vs. Laithwaite
Sounds like a discussion to avoid ;)
In the above video, the reason the two inclined disks stop turning is given right when they are first turned on.
When the two are on, they show a preference for CCW spin. But when he turns on the bottom motor, it is going CW. That will stop the two top disks from turning because they now have to fight against the bottom direction. If he reversed the wires on the bottom motor to make it turn CCW, he should see a better overall effect. The vibrations are normal since his two disks are most likely not perfectly balanced on their axis.
wattsup
I found the information on the mysterious pendulum effects during a solar eclipse.
The excerpt below is from this NASA link:
http://science.nasa.gov/science-news/science-at-nasa/1999/ast06aug99_1/
QuoteAn Abrupt Excursion in the Plane: What Allais Published
In a marathon experiment, Maurice Allais released a Foucault pendulum every 14 minutes - for 30 days and nights -without missing a data point. He recorded the direction of rotation (in degrees) at his Paris laboratory. This energetic show of human endurance happened to overlap with the 1954 solar eclipse. During the eclipse, the pendulum took an unexpected turn, changing its angle of rotation by 13.5 degrees.
Left: Maurice Allais (1911 - ) won the Nobel Prize in Economics in 1988. He stated, "All my researches in theoretical and applied physics which, at first sight, appear to be remote from my main activity as an economist, have, in reality, enriched me with valuable experience."
Both before and after the eclipse, the pendulum experienced normal rotation (Foucault effect of 0.19 degrees/minute). This 13.5-degree excursion in the angular plane persisted throughout the length of the eclipse, a total of 2.5 hours of observations. Allais got similar results when he later repeated the experiment during a solar eclipse in 1959.
EM
PS. I watched video #7 from the link that exnihiloest posted above. It appears the gyro loses weight when it is precessing, it is out of balance by about 2 kg as he shows in the video. So the gyro no only shifts its weight to the pivot but drops in weight a bit as well. ! Antigravity ?
video #8 , which I tried to analyze before definitely shows the gyro is lighter. The precession speed is very slow, so that's not the answer, it has to lose weight!
Quote from: WaveWatcher on 2012.05.31, 10:01:17
The linear vertical bearing rose on the spring as precession began and only for a brief moment. I would like to see an experiment showing how the transition of COG functions and flows.
So, applying a force doesn't always create an equal and opposite opposing force.
Action/reaction applies: the vertical force is needed to fight the inertia until the balance is obtained, otherwise we wouldn't need force. Newton's second law.
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Sometimes, the opposing force is normal to but not equal to the applied force.
When the force is normal, it is not an opposing force. The action/reaction still applies but elsewhere or in another way, without contradicting the conservation of energy and momentum (Lorentz force, for example).
Quote
It does sound a bit like electromagnetism :)
Laithwaite himself in a paper makes a parallel between precession and electromagnetism, and ask the interesting question of what is the equivalent of electromagnetic waves in the mechanical case. Unfortunately, he is not synthetic, his parallel between the mechanical and electromagnetic quantities remains fuzzy. I think it is a point to clear, because it is a promising method for analysing.
Quote
;D Kirchhoff vs. Faraday - Newton vs. Laithwaite
Sounds like a discussion to avoid ;)
Kirchhoff: which force?
Newton vs. Laithwaite: not yet proved, it's the open question here, not to avoid :).
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.05.31, 18:18:38
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It appears the gyro loses weight when it is precessing, it is out of balance by about 2 kg as he shows in the video. So the gyro no only shifts its weight to the pivot but drops in weight a bit as well. ! Antigravity ?
...
It is the weakest Laithwaite's point.
Torques can give the illusion of weight loss. Laithwaite has never publicly weighed gyros on a scale, what would be the only acceptable proof.
I did it and I'm not alone, and the result is: gyro weight loss cannot be measured.
I'm sure that Laithwaite is by far intelligent enough to understand that a weight loss measurement would be the only real proof of his underlying ideas. As I can't imagine that he didn't lead these measurements, due to his intellectual curiosity, I'm forced to conclude that he did it but was unable to measure any weight loss, as all other experimenters.
the secret seems to be nutation
This is good short reading about Eric Laithwaite: http://www.rense.com/general42/genius.htm
Based on Eric Laithwaite's experiments, and specifically the ones illustrating that there is no centrifugal forces on the axis of precession, I can say that it is a no brainer to design an inertial propulsion device.
See my simple design below. What do you think? I rotate the arm with a motor perhaps, and at the 9 o'clock position I spin up the gyro, so that it does not produce a centrifugal force on the axle, then at 3 o'clock I remove the kinetic energy from the gyro and stop it so that it will produce a centrifugal force on the axle. Therefore, the axle will be pulled in only one direction.
How much simpler can it get?
EM
PS. Note that the gyro will want to torque out of plane when it is rotated from 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock, because it is spinning, however, if it can't do that because it is constrained, the constraint will produce the necessary torque on it to keep it in plane, so it should work. However, it might not and need to be oriented only horizontaly, and have gravity cause the precession. That's an experiment that needs to be performed.
@EM
If the circle is in a vertical plane, it can't work because there is precession only if the force (weight) is normal to this plane.
Now your idea can't be a priori discarded if the circle is in a horizontal plane. In this case there could be a forward inertial displacement. But I remember that this idea is not new and has been experimented without success. I don't remember why. It is likely that the periods of angular acceleration/deceleration to start and stop the gyro cancel the presumed effect. To be conclusive, the analysis of the system needs to take into account the accelerations.