On page 229 of the huge "Don Smith" thread at EF, Janost posts what he claims is a "self-runner." I think it is worth taking a look, doing replications and testing.
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/4864-donald-smith-devices-too-good-true-229.html
Posted by Janost (see circuit below).
QuoteIt is a stepup-stepdown converter.
The first transformer generates about 800volt pulses into an Avramenko plug. It charges the 630nF cap using a single wire.
When the gas discharge tube breakdown voltage, 200volt, is reached the cap discharges into stepdown transformer primary and transforms the voltage down and the current up on the secondary.
The GDT rate is about 20Hz.
The secondary is rectified and charges the 3,6v Li-Ion cell that feeds the supply voltage for the HV-blocking oscillator.
It works without a grounding-rod but the battery eventually runs out.
When it is grounded the glow from the GDT is stronger and the secondary of the stepdown generates a higher voltage with more current.
The second AV-plug with the 5,6uF cap is a way to tap the circuit and use a load without disturbing the selffeeding loop.
And Janost further:
QuoteThe caps in the AV-plugs won't charge with a lower voltage.
Yes, the 5K pot sets the pump rate through the load.
The SCR fires when the gate voltage exceed 3volt and discharges the cap through the load.
It's like a low voltage sparkgap.
The secondary delivers 13volt and 400mA shorted.
The blocking-oscillator draws about 70mA.
It is selfrunning but only if it's grounded and I can't explain why.
And he adds:
Quotejanost janost is offline
Member
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 44
The transformers are stock.
The stepup comes from a bugzapper and the stepdown is a 230v to 9v wallwart.
The GDT is just a flurocent-tube lighter with the supression cap cut out.
The exact breakdown voltage is 196v.
The GDT actually pulses the primary of the stepdown but on the secondary there is a ringdown happening with the transformers self-resonant frequency.
That is why I only half-rectified it instead of a bridge to keep the ringing.
I have burned out a couple of wallwart transformer running them with just a sparkgap before I figured out a GDT and the AV-plug performs excellent and the GDT fires before the primary winding breaks down.
The AV-plug does not put any strain on the stepup secondary as it charges passively.
I guess that the caps won't charge on a lower voltage because of leakage in the diodes.
We have 230v lines in my country and if connect the AV-plug to the livewire of a wallplug it only charges to about 6,5volts.
More from Janost:
QuoteMy circuit proves that you dont need real HV like ignition-coils or MOTs for this to work.
My theory is that it is actually the sparkgap and the ground-rod that does the magic.
Perhaps also the resonant ringing in the stepdown transformer.
Clearly Janost has actually built and tested:
QuoteIf I grabb the grounding end of the coil with my hand (no chocks felt) the output is stronger so yes, an antenna could work.
If i do that I guess it is pulling the electrons out of my body and the ground I'm standing on.
It is extremly important that the HV-coil is connected the correct way around so that the kickback pulse is positive in respect to the ground.
The other way around and the cap wont charge.
This is really interesting stuff.
Anyone want to try a build?? Comments?
More posts, more info (from the EF discussion) -- clearly Janost is using available parts; does not look like a difficult build, although the exact 230V "wall wart" might be hard for me to get :
QuoteQuote:
Originally Posted by Dave45 View Post
What are the amp specs on the wall wart you used.
Thank you for sharing.
Janost: 3VA, 230v in, 9v 300mA out.
Gyula contributes:
QuoteQuote:
Originally Posted by gyula View Post
Hi Janost,
Have you tried to optimize this circuit? I mean for instance the 40mA current draw by the blocking oscillator sounds high to me, though it may be needed to drive the rest of the circuit. So increasing the 1 kOhm base resistor could influence the circuit gradually towards the no-go self sustaining state (with ground attached)? Of course, increasing the 1 kOhm surely changes the oscillator frequency, a good thing to keep this in mind. What is the approximate oscillator frequency? though I guess it is not critical.
Regarding the 1N4007 diodes, they were manufactured for 50/60 Hz and if the oscillator runs in the several kHz range or even higher, you may wish to use fast or ultrafast diodes like the UF4007 or similar. The UF4000 diode series has the same current and voltage spec like the old 1N4000 series but the switching time is under 100 nanosec, versus the millisec speed of the 1N4000s.
The 630nF could be assembled from several paralleled smaller values, this way the resultant equivalent loss resistance gets reduced.
Maybe you could connect a capacitor (small value, say some ten pF) in parallel with the step-down transformer's primary input coil to enhance ringing? if it is beneficial of course.
I also ask the ground leg of the secondary coil of the step-up transformer where you show the ground road is not connected also to the negative point of the 3.6V battery? No need for such connection? just because of the Avramenko plug?
Thanks, Gyula
Janost: Yes, it can be optimized.
Janost, today:
QuoteIn my case the wallwart is 230v and gives a 9v output.
If you would pulse a 120v walwart with 196v pulses, the output would be doubled, 26v in my schematics.
I don't think there would be any problems feeding the primary 196v pulses and the winding can take it.
That would then be a 13:1 transformer overvolted by 63%.
Janost is evidently in Sweden. He is to be commended for his willingness to share and answer questions.
His first post on this build of his was on 22 July 2012... No replications yet that I know of.
I'm not quite sure of how to build the "gas discharge tube GDT" that he talks about -- how did he get this from a fluorescent tube?
Although i have not seen which GDT he uses, they are easily ordered for a whole range of voltages, i have a whole bag of them from my Don Smith work.
http://uk.farnell.com/jsp/search/browse.jsp?N=2031+204083&Ntk=gensearch&Ntt=gdt&Ntx=mode+matchallpartial&No=0&getResults=true&appliedparametrics=true&locale=en_UK&divisionLocale=en_UK&catalogId=&skipManufacturer=false&skipParametricAttributeId=&prevNValues=2031+204083&filtersHidden=false&appliedHidden=false&autoApply=false&originalQueryURL=%2Fjsp%2Fsearch%2Fbrowse.jsp%3FN%3D2031%2B204083%26Ntk%3Dgensearch%26Ntt%3Dgdt%26Ntx%3Dmode%2Bmatchallpartial%26No%3D0%26getResults%3Dtrue%26appliedparametrics%3Dtrue%26locale%3Den_UK%26divisionLocale%3Den_UK%26catalogId%3D%26skipManufacturer%3Dfalse%26skipParametricAttributeId%3D%26prevNValues%3D2031%2B204083
He talks about removing the cap from the discharge tube which fits the description of an ordinary 2-pin flouro starter. These are dead cheap and pull apart easily.
Hoppy
Peterae beat me to it but yes I think that is what he is using and those are fairly cheap. Basically just a sealed spark gap.
They are also used in older telecoms equipment to protect against lightning strikes, there can be caps in circuit as well, also were used in TVs to protect against tube flashover although later TVs just use an air gap for this.
There are now semiconductor 2 pin crowbars that are used in the telecoms instead.
EDIT
OK i found a circuit of as fluorescent starter and if he did indeed remove the cap then this does look more likely
If that is what he used, i seem to remember these are not spark gap's they use bi metal strips to form a thermal switch but don't quote me as i am using information i remember from years ago.
DOUBLE EDIT >:-)
I just seen this under the image i posted
QuoteSwitch (bi-metallic thermostat)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluorescent_lamp
so it's nothing like a spark gap, these switch at a very low frequency 5-6Hz
There's no way this would work surely.
BS alert, if he really says he used a fluorescent starter as the gap, then he really has not built a worker, a lot of people seem to believe that it's a spark gap, but when you try to use them as a spark gap you find they wont work, i think he is telling porky's that he has this working.
Does Janost have this circuit runing in closed loop? Is that what he is claiming? I see a 3.6 V Li battery in his circuit?
I believe he is saying that if the ground is attached it will self charge the battery and also provide an output through the avremenko part of the circuit. Without the ground attached he said the battery will eventually run down.
Well that would be another no no, never use Li Ion batteries in any pulsed charged circuits, these batteries are time bombs, you need to adhere to strict over and under charging conditions, if not the house could burn down or worst it could blow in your face.
More info is needed on what he using for the HV 1:50 transformer All he says is that it came from a bug zapper.
The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.
Hoppy
Hoppy excuse my ignorance then, are you really sure a fluorescent starter is just a neon with a cap across it, because when i look up exactly what it is on the net it is definitely not just a neon.
For instance look here as well
http://home.howstuffworks.com/question337.htm
QuoteThe fluorescent starter is a time-delay switch
QuoteThe glow tube incorporates a switch which is normally open. When power is applied, a glow discharge takes place which heats a bimetal contact. A second or so later, the contacts close and provide current to the fluorescent filaments. Since the glow is extinguished, there is no longer any heating of the bimetal and the contacts open
This is why the tube blinks when first switched on, it's a low Hz time delay switch from what i see, and could not be used in place of a spark gap.
Maybe there are different variants ?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.07.25, 15:10:18
More posts, more info (from the EF discussion) -- clearly Janost is using available parts; does not look like a difficult build, although the exact 230V "wall wart" might be hard for me to get :
Gyula contributes:
Janost, today:
Janost is evidently in Sweden. He is to be commended for his willingness to share and answer questions.
His first post on this build of his was on 22 July 2012... No replications yet that I know of.
I'm not quite sure of how to build the "gas discharge tube GDT" that he talks about -- how did he get this from a fluorescent tube?
Hi Steven,
Thanks for including my post here from the other forum.
You can get a power adapter with universal 100V - 240V AC input (50/60 Hz) with a fix 9V DC output here (but surely you can have at other places too):
http://www.apogeekits.com/switch_mode_power_adapter_9v_400ma.htm
or for switchable, several DC outputs here: http://www.apogeekits.com/switching_power_adapter.htm
these camoe from this link: http://www.apogeekits.com/ac-dc_switching_power_supplies.htm
Regarding his 1:50 transformer, in photo flash circuits you can find such small transformers to get the 300-400V AC output and then you can use voltage multiplier if needed. HEre is a hint: http://www.increa.com/reverse/dc/
rgds, Gyula
Hi Peterae,
As I commented in my last post, it does have electrodes and these operate as you quoted within a gas filled glass tube, but some current will flow when a glow discharge takes place before the contacts close in Janost's cct.
Hoppy
"The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.
Hoppy"
multipactor effect in radioactive environment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect
http://www.scribd.com/doc/44800637/5/Fluorescent-lamp-starters-and-other-electronic-devices
Fluorescent lamp starters and other electronic devices
The quantity of radioactive material used in such devices is very small and thepotential for external exposure is insignificant.
There is some potential forinternal exposure following breakage of the devices, either accidentally or ondisposal.
It is understood that an assessment of radiation dose from all types of electronic device manufactured in Germany was made and estimated doses tomembers of the public were found to be less than 10 µSv per year.
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/nuclear/transport/doc/final-version-study1.pdf
Fluorescent lamp starters contain Krypton-85 to ionize the starter filling gas. The starter works
basically as a switch which applies the voltage to the fluorescent tube after sufficient
preheating to allow the tube to conduct an electric current. Commercially available fluorescent
lamp starters (glow switches) contain on average about 150 - 250 Bq per unit of Kr-85,
although Kr-85 inventories in excess of 1000 Bq per unit can be excluded in practice. Many
millions of these devices are manufactured and distributed annually in EU Member States.
Quote from: wings on 2012.07.26, 11:51:09
"The commonly used flouro starter is a small gas (neon) filled glass tube with electrodes and an RFI cap across it, so it should strike with enough voltage across it. Janost quotes 196V in his case.
Hoppy"
multipactor effect in radioactive environment:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multipactor_effect
http://www.scribd.com/doc/44800637/5/Fluorescent-lamp-starters-and-other-electronic-devices
Fluorescent lamp starters and other electronic devices
The quantity of radioactive material used in such devices is very small and thepotential for external exposure is insignificant.
There is some potential forinternal exposure following breakage of the devices, either accidentally or ondisposal.
It is understood that an assessment of radiation dose from all types of electronic device manufactured in Germany was made and estimated doses tomembers of the public were found to be less than 10 µSv per year.
http://ec.europa.eu/energy/nuclear/transport/doc/final-version-study1.pdf
Fluorescent lamp starters contain Krypton-85 to ionize the starter filling gas. The starter works
basically as a switch which applies the voltage to the fluorescent tube after sufficient
preheating to allow the tube to conduct an electric current. Commercially available fluorescent
lamp starters (glow switches) contain on average about 150 - 250 Bq per unit of Kr-85,
although Kr-85 inventories in excess of 1000 Bq per unit can be excluded in practice. Many
millions of these devices are manufactured and distributed annually in EU Member States.
http://multipactor.esa.int/whatis.html
"The availability of free electrons to start of the release of secondary electrons.
(In space, free electrons are released from the surfaces by high energy particles, while during on-ground testing they are provided by a radioactive source (Strontium 90) or an electron gun)"
Farnsworth Multipactor Tube
http://journal.borderlands.com/1988/the-farnsworth-multipactor-tube/
In the circuit at the beginning of this thread, isn't the entire circuit on the leg of the secondary (1:50 transformer) capacitively coupled to the ground rod at the other leg?
Would it be possible for someone to grab the circuit and post it here please, i don't have an account at the other site and cannot see the diagram. O0
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.26, 15:26:43
Would it be possible for someone to grab the circuit and post it here please, i don't have an account at the other site and cannot see the diagram. O0
See attached.
Hoppy
Cheers Hoppy
OK just to remind anyone building this, it very dangerous using a Li ION cell without a charge control system in place.
Here's a danger diagram.
They can go from cool to red hot in a blink due to the copper anode dissolving and then reforming in the wrong place causing an internal short where the total energy stored can be released in a very short period of time, many houses have burnt down sometimes even having been charged with the correct charger, to do this all you need to do is let the battery go under 2V and then charge it normally, that is all that is required to potentially cause the anode short.
Li ION cells perform better at higher temperatures, so a bad charging regime that increases the cell temperature may well appear to be self-running a circuit that consumes little power over a considerable period of time, such as this circuit from Janost. Peterae is right to raise a warning over this circuit which is potentially very dangerous!
Hoppy
Why does Janost classify his project a "self runner"? ???
Perhaps we will learn more from this replication by Woopy (thanks, Woopy!)...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRs1z8g0roU&feature=em-uploademail
I've been out of town all day; hope to get back to this very soon. Interesting developments in the "LENR" arena also...
Quote from: poynt99 on 2012.07.27, 00:14:58
Why does Janost classify his project a "self runner"? ???
I like Woopy's video, simplified circuit in some ways and clear explanations with gusto. (Thanks again, Woopy!)
O0
Woopy has LED lights running (load) and is drawing power from two NiMH batteries in series for the power input-- and ALSO THESE SAME BATTERIES ARE BEING CHARGED, at the same time. Woopy notes the current draw, yet the batteries' voltage is staying constant at 2.50V for 10 hours (he notes). So this is what is meant by a self-runner; so far anyway. Woopy says he will check it in the morning.
One might want to substitute a low-leakage cap for the batteries; if this does not change the waveform or behavior.
Peterae -- note that Woopy has substituted NiMH batteries without a problem; so one does not need to worry so much about Lithium batteries.
Suggest you all download Woopy's vid -- and let's see about replicating, shall we?
The circuit looks to me kind of like a Don Smith type, using a bug-zapper trafo for the step-up and a wall-wart trafo for the step down, but with power re-circulating to charge the batteries. Clever.
Wow go Whoopy ;D
In his video of the scope shot, the main waveform is riding on a low Hz frequency as well, this maybe a very good sign.
A Capacitor Test would be a fantastic idea.
For anyone in the UK these bug zappers are dead cheap on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BATTERY-OPERATED-BUG-ZAPPER-FLY-INSECT-SWAT-ZAP-RACKET-/380352600027?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D270732869184%26ps%3D54
£4.00
I personally would replace the led load with a bulb, you can get really small low power bulbs.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.27, 10:15:42
For anyone in the UK these bug zappers are dead cheap on ebay
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/BATTERY-OPERATED-BUG-ZAPPER-FLY-INSECT-SWAT-ZAP-RACKET-/380352600027?_trksid=p3284.m263&_trkparms=algo%3DSIC%26its%3DI%26itu%3DUCI%252BIA%252BUA%252BFICS%252BUFI%26otn%3D21%26pmod%3D270732869184%26ps%3D54
£4.00
I've also seen these recently in UK 'Pound Shops' for £3.99.
Hoppy
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.07.27, 05:32:09
Woopy has LED lights running (load) and is drawing power from two NiMH batteries in series for the power input-- and ALSO THESE SAME BATTERIES ARE BEING CHARGED, at the same time. Woopy notes the current draw, yet the batteries' voltage is staying constant at 2.50V for 10 hours (he notes). So this is what is meant by a self-runner; so far anyway. Woopy says he will check it in the morning.
It isn't a self-runner yet, not by a long shot.
It's disappointing that folks keep repeating the same error and making the same assumptions over and over without learning from past experiments.
There is virtually no "load" on the circuit at all. Those super-brights will light slightly at the mere whiff of voltage. Put a real load on there, like a resistor! Woopy will find that his battery voltage will decrease given enough time.
Indeed Poynt
Wow thanks for that Hoppy.
Well it should be pretty interesting, it looks like Whoopy is using between 30-80 mA(not really a good scale meter)
If the battery's are 2500mAH then at best i would expect it to last for about 80 hours or 3-4 days, with NiMH i would expect the battery voltage to hold up pretty well but later show a fast decline as he approaches depletion.
Although i have not included recharge rate so it could be a lot more, if we were to say he was getting 75% recharge power then it could last as long as 13 Days which could be unlucky for some 8)
Offcourse i am also hoping it works forever ;)
Quoteduring the night, the battery lost 3 millivolts (down from 2.50 volts at 24.00 yesterday to 2.47 volts at 8.00 this morning
Oh one other thing i make that a 30mV drop not 3mV
Quote from: poynt99 on 2012.07.27, 12:17:41
It isn't a self-runner yet, not by a long shot.
It's disappointing that folks keep repeating the same error and making the same assumptions over and over without learning from past experiments.
There is virtually no "load" on the circuit at all. Those super-brights will light slightly at the mere whiff of voltage. Put a real load on there, like a resistor! Woopy will find that his battery voltage will decrease given enough time.
Agreed. Time will tell. Woopy may find that when he removes the battery and lets it rest that the lost capacity will be more easily seen when applied to a resistive load. I have seen this effect when charging LA batteries with HV many times and no longer get very excited when my voltmeter shows no change for ages. However, we should not dismiss this one out of hand, so I will build this and report in due course.
Hoppy
Indeed Hoppy
A good fun circuit to knock up and test, i would try to get some images of Janost's build just to make sure you can verify the components used, Specially the transformers, i would love to see some waveforms during operation to see if anything special is happened on his build as well O0
Put a resistive load on the back end and get an idea of whats happening power wise, build the correct load circuit to be sure Whoppy is not killing the effect.
I remember when EM had a circuit going using the 2N2222 which looked promising at the time, i replicated that and the waveforms did appear to be giving back more, but we were never able to loop it, i like this circuit and on Whoppys scope shot there are 2 resonant frequencies which i love to see.
Itsusable has also posted a replication. Thanks Itsu for building and posting!
He sees the voltage on the batteries' voltage dropping over a few hours... Some variations from the original Janost cct.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PLzHlN6JoiQ&feature=em-uploademail
Janost has confirmed that he uses a flouro starter gas tube with the RFI cap removed.
Hoppy
Cheers Hoppy
Well that could be a game changer, not sure how it could work though
If only someone could get some waveforms and pictures anything can help.
Itsu does another vid -- still not a self-runner, but interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=94FE59Nt6Sw&feature=em-uploademail
And earlier today Janost posted at EF:
QuoteMy prototype has been running for over a week now and the cell has a steady voltage of 2,81v.
Last edited by janost : Today at 03:18 AM.
[/b]
Thanks to Itsu and Janost.
Well he's certainly running on empty
Most excellent point Peterae.
Having knowledge which enables cell/battery voltage interpretation
is beneficial when striving to establish truth.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.28, 21:27:39
Well he's certainly running on empty
Looking at your curve, Peter, it appears that at 2.81 V the curve is quite steep. Thus, I do not understand how the device could run at this voltage for a week (as he says) if there was any load, which there is -- can you explain?
It is true that replication efforts by Woopy and Itsu show a much more rapid voltage drop.
In any case, I'm awaiting parts I've ordered for my build -- and I look forward to more data.
QuoteLooking at your curve, Peter, it appears that at 2.81 V the curve is quite steep. Thus, I do not understand how the device could run at this voltage for a week (as he says) if there was any load, which there is -- can you explain?
the only way it would stay at 2.81 is for no current to be drawn, he is on a part of the curve that is very rapidly movable, he must be generating exactly the same power he is using for it not to change by 1mV, i find this hard to swallow, he is balancing on a tightrope without a professed wobble, the question remains what was his starting voltage?
If it stayed between 3.2-3.3 Volts i would be more inclined to believe it, you have the ability up here to be using power without moving the voltage around, to put it in another way, in his current operating mode he should be able to disconnect the battery totally and it should still run the same C.C maybe with a small cap.
Now if his starting voltage was 3.3V then he would have run out of power by now if he was on 2.81 yesterday, I am expecting bad news from him O0 maybe it's too late for him to save face.
EDIT
There is the possibility that the device prefers 2.81 Volts, maybe below this voltage it generates more power and above it generates less and therefore has found a balancing point, it could be a point where the battery impedance is such to cause this.
DOUBLE EDIT
I see Janost is reading here now, that's good thanks Itsu.
If you want an account here pm me at Peterae 'at' overunityresearch.com
Yes i understand now the starter is being run at low power and therefore the bi-metal strip is not operating.
Can you please state your battery start voltage so we can clear that up, any chance of scoped waveforms.
It's a fun circuit, thanks for sharing with everyone.
Hi
I'm the inventor of the circuit so I can answer some questions.
The easiest way to build the circuit is to buy a tennisracket bugzapper and scrap it.
Remove all parts on the secondary part of the HV-board so that there is only the bare secondary winding left.
Any diodes, capacitors, shunts and bleedresistors should be removed
The HV-capacitor can be reused in the AV-plug.
One end of the bugzapper secondary MUST be grounded and it also have to be the correct end so that it is the kickback pulse that is feed to the AV-plug.
Then I used an ordinary wallwart transformer as stepdown, in my case a 230v to 9v 300mA, 3VA.
The GDT is a fluorotube-starter with the RFI-cap removed and all diodes are 1N4007.
I used a 18650 Li-Ion cell 2200mAh.
This as you know can be dangerous if you dont know what you are doing so please use any other type of rechargable cell.
But I think that the Li-Ion impendance or ESR has something to do with the circuit working because I have not got it to work with a 47000uF supercap.
The currentdraw when the transistor is conducting is an enormous 500mA in a short pulse.
I have the 2 diodes connected in series as a voltagedrop because the blocking-osc is drawing 1.2A in every pulse if powered on 3v and will kill it self in the process if run continously.
My starting voltage was a 3.99v, 90% charged Li-Ion.
The voltage kept dropping by 0,001v/min and I thought it would not work.
But also as the voltage kept dropping the currentdraw also dropped.
And at 2.81v it stopped dropping, the circuit draws the same current as it delivers.
This means 1.41v after the diode drop to the blocking-osc.
I also discovered that it works even better if its running on one battery and charging another.
It actually charging more than it consumes.
It also charges Lead-Acid cells even better than Li-Ion, NiMh or NiCd cells.
This could be the nature of Lead-Acid cells as they like to be pulse-charged.
I'm currently in the process of building a larger version using a 400VA transformer as stepdown and I have changed the AV-plug/GDT circuit a bit to increase the current in the stepdown primary without overloading the fluoro-starter/GDT.
The circuit below uses the GDT to fire into the gate of an SCR that discharges the full charge of the capacitor in the AV-plug into the primary and not just below the GDT firing voltage.
Welcome janost
Thanks for clarifying the start condition of the battery, well looks good that it has balanced, let's hope if keeps going OK.
I wish i could join in to build it, but my bench has a large project right now with many months so far.
I am sure there will be people here trying to replicate. O0
Is there any chance of putting up a few scope shots, just in case there's something special you are doing to help people make sure their operating mode is the same.
Also can i ask what you are using for your load.
I have a dso nano oscilloscope but I dont have a memorycard for it.
But I'll try to take pictures of the screen.
Thankyou
Much appreciated.
Here is an easy mockup of my super electronpump using an ignitioncoil and a relayticker with a timing cap to generate 50-100Hz.
I know the relay sounds awfull and will probably break after a couple of hours.
But it is very easy to build using simple parts around a 6v SPDT relay, an ignitioncoil and a 400VA stepdown transformer.
The output is 400watts and will charge a Lead-Acid battery and will selfrun with a currentdraw of only 20mA.
This one will most likely run with my 47000uF supercap.
This is what you are working on now. O0
Looks good, that would be a powerful device, we could all do with a working unit like this once operation is confirmed.
Yes this one sounds great. Can you give any specs on the SCR?
Perhaps it needs a capacitor over the primary of the stepdown to make it ring or resonate.
Or a diode backwards over the SCR so it resonates with the cap in the AV-plug.
I need to scope it first.
I use a BTY-79 screwtype 10amp SCR but only because I had it in my junkbox.
Anything that can handle 350v 2A will work.
The GDT is still an FL-starter because it's cheap and easy to find.
In this config connected to the gate ther is no load on it.
The coils resistance is 90ohm and the ignition-coil is 3ohm.
That makes 93ohm and 63mA on 6volts.
But that is on all the time.
When pulsed the current drawn is divided by the pulse-ratio.
The ratio is about 33% so the current drawn is 20mA.
My plan is that the final, 3rd version of the pump will be using a MIG-welding transformer as the stepdown transformer.
That is 18v 90amp output :D
But to generate that kind of output the HV to the AV-plug needs to be high for fast charging of the cap and then a discharge into the primary with at least 10amps.
Thanks janost! That helps me a lot. One other question since I'm not too familiar with how ratings work on GDT's. I'm looking at some now from a suppler that have a 500 volt breakover voltage and a 10 amp peak current. Would that be a good choice or do I need lower/higher ratings? (I posted this ? on EF too so I'll put any answers over there too). 1N4007's are rated at 1000 volt so if this is a lot higher than that I'm suprised these don't blow. Maybe some microwave diodes would be better (or like you said just put a bunch of 1N4007's in series).
I've always used The ultra fast version of the 4007 IE UF4007 code, same diode rating just ultra fast.
Although best to stick with what Jan uses really.
Thank you very much for joining the discussion here, Janost, and for sharing your ideas. I find your work most exciting!
(I'm awaiting a few parts for my build.)
I see Woopy has just posted another vid... He is combining ideas from Janost and others, now has both antenna and ground.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJBMDa1mbc8&feature=em-uploademail
Thanks especially to Janost for the highlighted comments --
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.29, 13:53:08
Hi
I'm the inventor of the circuit so I can answer some questions.
The easiest way to build the circuit is to buy a tennisracket bugzapper and scrap it.
Remove all parts on the secondary part of the HV-board so that there is only the bare secondary winding left.
Any diodes, capacitors, shunts and bleedresistors should be removed
The HV-capacitor can be reused in the AV-plug.
One end of the bugzapper secondary MUST be grounded and it also have to be the correct end so that it is the kickback pulse that is feed to the AV-plug.
Then I used an ordinary wallwart transformer as stepdown, in my case a 230v to 9v 300mA, 3VA.
The GDT is a fluorotube-starter with the RFI-cap removed and all diodes are 1N4007.
I used a 18650 Li-Ion cell 2200mAh.
This as you know can be dangerous if you dont know what you are doing so please use any other type of rechargable cell.
But I think that the Li-Ion impendance or ESR has something to do with the circuit working because I have not got it to work with a 47000uF supercap.
The currentdraw when the transistor is conducting is an enormous 500mA in a short pulse.
I have the 2 diodes connected in series as a voltagedrop because the blocking-osc is drawing 1.2A in every pulse if powered on 3v and will kill it self in the process if run continuously.
My starting voltage was a 3.99v, 90% charged Li-Ion.
The voltage kept dropping by 0,001v/min and I thought it would not work.
But also as the voltage kept dropping the currentdraw also dropped.
And at 2.81v it stopped dropping, the circuit draws the same current as it delivers.
This means 1.41v after the diode drop to the blocking-osc.[/b]
I also discovered that it works even better if its running on one battery and charging another.
It actually charging more than it consumes.
It also charges Lead-Acid cells even better than Li-Ion, NiMh or NiCd cells.
This could be the nature of Lead-Acid cells as they like to be pulse-charged.
I'm currently in the process of building a larger version using a 400VA transformer as stepdown and I have changed the AV-plug/GDT circuit a bit to increase the current in the stepdown primary without overloading the fluoro-starter/GDT.
The circuit below uses the GDT to fire into the gate of an SCR that discharges the full charge of the capacitor in the AV-plug into the primary and not just below the GDT firing voltage.
The thing with GDTs and breakovervoltage is the same as sparkgaps and 1kv/mm in open air.
Normaly infinite ohms, when they fire they become low ohmic and deliver the full potential for a few microsec.
This means in your case that the primary will be pulsed with 500v and that could be to much depending on what transformer you use.
A neonbulb fires att 100v and an FL-tubestarter at 200v.
Both are very easy to obtain if you cant find at GDT with the proper rating.
If you use a 120v stepdown transformer a neonbulb could be better as it will fire at 100v.
I also think that in the AV-plug configuration the 1N4007 can take more than 1000v as this it not the full potential in the cap.
As long as there is no strikeover from the HV side.
The Janost's device is an oscillator powering a transformer that rises the voltage to a value compatible with a "single wire transmission" of Avramenko's type (a single wire transmission is in fact a conventional circuit looped through the low terminal capacities that any conductor have relative to the environment).
The only possible source of extra-energy is therefore the GDT which could be a "gate" open to the ZPE. Nevertheless I wonder why a Li-Ion battery is required when a simple capacitor would be enough. All free energy devices with batteries are very suspicious. The stronger the battery the more suspicious the device.
Yeah i don't like any batteries either, i am not so sure about the neon GDT, because it seems to have found a required voltage, my candidate would be the transistor or the earthing system, it's been noted before there is something special with the 2N2222.
I am wondering if a voltage sweep on a variable power supply while monitoring current would reveal anything.
Preliminary testing of Janost's Electron Pump replication (without thyristor driven load) showed that at a certain point my battery discharge slowed when it approached the forward voltage of the two IN4007 diodes in series with the battery. The voltage started to stabilise at this point but continued to drop very slowly when measured with a DVM reading at 3 decimal places. The circuit failed to restart when disconnecting and reconnecting the battery at this point.
I tried 3 no and 4 no NICAD cells and in each case the circuit held at a little over 1.4V. The cells were 'flat' and deliberately not charged as I wished to see the effect of using a battery pack that had little capacity. The circuit did eventually die after around 10 hours of running. I will now try a fully charged set of NICADS and I expect these to run the circuit for a few days, probably even a week or so,as the power draw is extremely low when the battery stabilises.
Others building this circuit may find that an ordinary neon lamp (without mains dropper resistor) will work better than a flouro starter tube.
The earth connection did increase the AC output voltage from the step-down transformer. The initial waveforms were as per Woopy's. At the stabilisation point the waveform took on a more regular sinusoid appearance - see attached. Top trace is DC coupled from collector to ground and lower trace is AC coupled across battery. Photo 02 shows a diminishing output from the step-down transformer just prior to the oscillator failing due to the two series diodes ceasing to conduct.
The third stage of my testing will be to add the rest of the load circuitry.
Hoppy
Does Avramenko's Plug exibit OU?
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.30, 08:34:43
All free energy devices with batteries are very suspicious. The stronger the battery the more suspicious the device.
I know you are, I would be to :)
But it failed to run with a capacitor because the current draw is to high in each pulse.
The super electron pump is only 63mA in each pulse and should run with a supercap.
But then again you would say -why use a supercap? It should run with just the wires looped ;)
I have invested in a 6V 4500mAh Lead-Acid battery today so I have something to charge.
No NiHM, NiCd or Li-ion. Just a plain sealed Lead-Acid MC-battery.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.30, 15:27:33
I know you are, I would be to :)
But it failed to run with a capacitor because the current draw is to high in each pulse.
The super electron pump is only 63mA in each pulse and should run with a supercap.
But then again you would say -why use a supercap? It should run with just the wires looped ;)
It should run a long time on a charged supercap.
Try tracking the voltage on a digital scope connected from collector to ground and log the peak voltage over a long period of time to see how the battery or supercap is coping with the load. You will see an interesting curve before the circuit stops oscillating. With pre-charged batteries of AA size, the circuit may will need to run for a few weeks before it eventually stops oscillating. I've had similar circuits running for weeks on end before death.
Hoppy
Here is my SEP (Super Electron Pump) built into an old server PSU.
I have 4 ignitioncoils, 3pc 20Kv and one highpower 36Kv.
i used the hipower one because it gives HV with a low power in.
I'll just solder the parts in and should be ready to go.
Janost,
Have you noticed a charge on any conductive objects near the device while it's turned on?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.30, 19:11:27
Janost,
Have you noticed a charge on any conductive objects near the device while it's turned on?
Yes, but only if I touch it.
I can light FL-tubes and lamps by holding them in one end and touching any part of my device.
You have currents in just about anything near by made of iron.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.30, 19:20:14
Yes, but only if I touch it.
I can light FL-tubes and lamps by holding them in one end and touching any part of my device.
You have currents in just about anything near by made of iron.
Well, your entire device IS the positive plate of a condenser, with the ground connection as the other plate. If the effect is strong enough, two object in close proximity will arc between themselves. Elihu Thomson wrote an article titled "Wireless Transmission of Energy" which contained details of this effect in 1876 (the experiments were performed in 1875). This is one of the effects that Tesla initially noticed in literature and his work led to his discover of radiant electricity, his magnifying transmitter, etc.
Thomson used a Ruhmkorff Coil and connected one leg to a metal table and the other to a water pipe. He used a detector, which he attriuted to "Edison" (go figure...) which consisted of two electrodes in a box, creating a tiny spark gap. One had a metal ball in it that was outside the box. He turned the other until the gap was small enough to show an arc. He could detect excitation of (?) anywhere in the building, even several floors from the coil.
I dabbled with this for a while several years ago. One thing I never tried was shaping two plates connected to the HV terminal so that they focused the field and then place a smaller capacitor (i.e. two plates) in the middle to see if you could induce more current in the smaller plates. Ideally, I think the field should rotate and you keep exciting it to build it up.
EDIT:
My take on this effect is that it shows that "displacement current", to use Maxwell's name for the current in the dielectric between two capacitor plates, either "induces" or is "converted into" conduction current when it encounters a conductor. How do we get some gain with this?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.30, 20:59:25
Well, your entire device IS the positive plate of a condenser, with the ground connection as the other plate. If the effect is strong enough, two object in close proximity will arc between themselves. Elihu Thomson wrote an article titled "Wireless Transmission of Energy" which contained details of this effect in 1876 (the experiments were performed in 1875). This is one of the effects that Tesla initially noticed in literature and his work led to his discover of radiant electricity, his magnifying transmitter, etc.
Thomson used a Ruhmkorff Coil and connected one leg to a metal table and the other to a water pipe. He used a detector, which he attriuted to "Edison" (go figure...) which consisted of two electrodes in a box, creating a tiny spark gap. One had a metal ball in it that was outside the box. He turned the other until the gap was small enough to show an arc. He could detect excitation of (?) anywhere in the building, even several floors from the coil.
I dabbled with this for a while several years ago. One thing I never tried was shaping two plates connected to the HV terminal so that they focused the field and then place a smaller capacitor (i.e. two plates) in the middle to see if you could induce more current in the smaller plates. Ideally, I think the field should rotate and you keep exciting it to build it up.
EDIT:
My take on this effect is that it shows that "displacement current", to use Maxwell's name for the current in the dielectric between two capacitor plates, either "induces" or is "converted into" conduction current when it encounters a conductor. How do we get some gain with this?
I have done this as a party effect.
8 people holding hands together and lighting FL-tubes :)
I know that the electrisity is special and I am for shure trying to harvest it.
I outlined the plates involved in the arcing effect. Second diagram shows an alternate location of the spark gap.
You can attach more surface area to each side to increase the effect, or increase the voltage. Compare it to Tesla's wireless transmission and see how the plates were transformed to serve his needs, but they are still there: top terminal and the ground plate.
If you are getting a strong charging effect around the primary transformer and transistor: DO NOT SHORT IT TO GROUND OR IT WILL SHORT THE TRANISTOR! I have had very strong fields develop and the electronics worked just fine within, but when grounded the trannies always shorted. (The energy across yor chest from arm to arm is very eery...)
Ideally, you need an easy way to change the pulse rate, such as a trigger from a freq gen.
Electricity follows rules like everything else.
good.
At the EnergeticForum, Janost recently wrote:
QuoteI think I'll crawl back under the rock I came from and leave you alone.
Argue with people that have no clue how electricity works is not what I had in mind.
I my mind I dont giva a **** what you think.
I just want to heat my home and my mistake was writing on this forum.
[Referring to EF]
Let's give him a better reception here! I think the best way to do this is to actually do builds and discuss the results.
Thanks for all you have contributed, Janost!
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.30, 15:27:33
I know you are, I would be to :)
But it failed to run with a capacitor because the current draw is to high in each pulse.
...
Wrong answer :).
Capacitors sized for high currents, such those that we can find in switching power supplies, present a very low dynamical impedance and can provide higher current pulses than li-Ion batteries. You ignore the state of the art. The second rule that you ignore, is that a voltage measurement doesn't reflect the charge of a battery but it reflects the charge of a capacitor. So if the device doesn't work with capacitors, the reason is that there is not overunity.
ex
We have already established the impedance of the battery is important, so why would a capacitor work, i do not see why it would, the impedance of the capacitor is totally different, for your last post to be correct you obviously can show me 2 charts, one for LI ION battery showing impedance at 2.81V and the same impedance for a cap, so let's have your charts or are you deliberately missleading people.
ex how can a device work without further depleting a battery not be overunity?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.30, 14:59:37
Does Avramenko's Plug exibit OU?
I have led careful measurements on this type of device. I was able to monitor the input current, depending on a load connected to the double-diode at the end of the single wire. It didn't exhibit OU. The power in the load was equal to the input power. What I discovered is that the output at the double-diode terminals behaves like a pure current generator (i.e. when the load resistance is divided by two, the voltage is also divided by two).
QuoteI have led careful measurements on this type of device.
ex the only way to find out if a device works is to have it and do tests, we don't know where the extra energy is coming from because we don't have the device, why would you even bother speculating.
You just cannot say an individual part does not show OU, it's the combined parts that may exhibit ou in a fashion we do not yet understand.
EDIT if you start trashing this thread like you have done before with other threads, without giving us a chance to talk to Jan, i will put you on Read only, I want you to understand we need to work on this device until we reach a scientific conclusion.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 09:37:30
ex
We have already established the impedance of the battery is important, so why would a capacitor work, i do not see why it would, the impedance of the capacitor is totally different,
If you think that it is the point and it is important, what was the impedance of the battery?
Why do you presume that none capacitor could have a similar impedance?
What must be the impedance for the system to work?
Quote
for your last post to be correct you obviously can show me 2 charts, one for LI ION battery showing impedance at 2.81V and the same impedance for a cap, so let's have your charts or are you deliberately missleading people.
Your accusation of misleading is a shame. What is misleading people is to claim overunity without giving experimental evidence.
Why do you suppose that the battery would be recharged?
Quote
ex how can a device work without further depleting a battery not be overunity?
I don't know. But what I know is that there are already hundreds of devices
alleged to work without further depleting a battery (remember Bedini 20 years ago), and nobody has been able to duplicate a single one!
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.31, 09:19:41
Wrong answer :).
Capacitors sized for high currents, such those that we can find in switching power supplies, present a very low dynamical impedance and can provide higher current pulses than li-Ion batteries. You ignore the state of the art. The second rule that you ignore, is that a voltage measurement doesn't reflect the charge of a battery but it reflects the charge of a capacitor. So if the device doesn't work with capacitors, the reason is that there is not overunity.
I'll put 2 of my 47000uF supercaps in parallell.
The can take 700mA ripple each and makes a total of 94000uF.
I'm not claming any overunity just an interresting observation.
And if it would run 1 year on a battery while generating power to a load that is still very good.
Because you can put more AV-plugs and transformers in parallell and it does not effect the runtime and still generates power for several loads.
A heatpump is not overunity even though it has a COP 3, you still have to feed it power for it to work.
Yet it is a very usefull invention.
You use power to move power from the ambient.
I do feel we need to get rid of the battery, but because caps are not working, maybe there's a way of making a cap look much more like a battery impedance, i need to look at this a bit more maybe someone with simulation experience would be able to answer.
OK i found an equivalent circuit for a LI Ion battery
http://www.mpoweruk.com/performance.htm
EDIT i am still trying to find an impedance / voltage chart.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 10:13:23
I do feel we need to get rid of the battery, but because caps are not working, maybe there's a way of making a cap look much more like a battery impedance, i need to look at this a bit more maybe someone with simulation experience would be able to answer.
The thing with batterys is that if you load them the voltage goes down and if you remove the load the voltage goes up a bit again.
This does not happen with caps. If you remove the load the voltage remain the same.
A battery is a chemical reaction and caps are not.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 09:57:04
ex the only way to find out if a device works is to have it and do tests,
...
Did you build one?
1) There is no more reason to assume it works, than to assume it doesn't work. But a forum is supposed to be the place for discussions about analyses of the device according to the common knowledge of the field, so all opinions shoud be expressed provided that arguments are given.
2) To test a device is not enough: if the test doesn't work, the past showed us that anything is taken as pretext to explain why only the original setup would work (the impedance of the duplication is not the exact impedance, the load is 600.01 ohm instead of 600.00 ohm, the battery is from Siemens and not Philips and so on...). Sorry to not be so naive.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 10:16:30
...
(http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1493.0;attach=8216;image)
...
Well done. Perfect confrmation that a Li-Ion battery can be replaced by a capacitor from a dynamic viewpoint.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 10:18:44
...
A battery is a chemical reaction and caps are not.
That is why a voltage measurement doesn't reflect the charge.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.31, 10:24:41
Did you build one?
1) There is no more reason to assume it works, than to assume it doesn't work. But a forum is supposed to be the place for discussions about analyses of the device according to the common knowledge of the field, so all opinions shoud be expressed provided that arguments are given.
2) To test a device is not enough: if the test doesn't work, the past showed us that anything is taken as pretext to explain why only the original setup would work (the impedance of the duplication is not the exact impedance, the load is 600.01 ohm instead of 600.00 ohm, the battery is from Siemens and not Philips and so on...). Sorry to not be so naive.
So being naive you would say that a heatpump also does not work?
You put in 1 unit of electricity and out comes 3 units of heat?
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 10:35:39
So being naive you would say that a heatpump also does not work?
You put in 1 unit of electricity and out comes 3 units of heat?
A heatpump is perfectly explainable according to the current laws of physics. Unlike your device which is a perpetual motion, a selfsustaining heatpump doesn't exist. Maybe a Maxwell demon is possible, nevertheless we have not yet a strong experimental evidence.
This is why my blocking-osc would not run with a supercap.
The diagram is the ESR of my Panasonic 0.047F supercap.
It shows that the ESR is 50ohms.
When my blocking oscillator is down on 1.41v the cap can sustain a current of only 28mA.
And the transistor pulls 500mA in each pulse.
There you go ;D
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.31, 10:50:29
A heatpump is perfectly explainable according to the current laws of physics. Unlike your device which is a perpetual motion, a selfsustaining heatpump doesn't exist. Maybe a Maxwell demon is possible, nevertheless we have not yet a strong experimental evidence.
A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.
What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?
Well done Jan for finding that impedance this clearly shows that a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery, which i am very surprised that ex did not know this as it is basic electronics.
so it maybe possible to use low ESR capacitors in parallel to your super cap to lower the impedance, and to adjust this it would be possible to add more in parallel to lower more or in series to give higher impedance, this may allow a margin of adjustment.
I am pretty sure Li Ion are Milli Ohm impedance's.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 10:52:58
This is why my blocking-osc would not run with a supercap.
The diagram is the ESR of my Panasonic 0.047F supercap.
It shows that the ESR is 50ohms.
When my blocking oscillator is down on 1.41v the cap can sustain a current of only 28mA.
And the transistor pulls 500mA in each pulse.
There you go ;D
You don't need a supercap. As each cycle of the signal is identical to the others and the battery is alleged to be charged, each cycle must contribute equally to the charge. Therefore a capacitor able to power only some cycles is required, as it would be recharged at each cycle (so no need of a long time constant). Some thousands of µF would be far enough, with in parallel a lower HF cap to deal with signal transitions, provided that the capacitor is sized for high currents.
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 11:03:15
Well done Jan for finding that impedance this clearly shows that a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery, which i am very surprised that ex did not know this as it is basic electronics.
You provide yourself an equivalent schematics of a Li-Ion battery, based on a capacitor, and after, you say that "a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery". It is terrible C.C.
Sorry, not much time now to correct all the mistakes from people not skilled in electronics. Too much work and I'm on holidays, typing this message from a chalet in the mountains of the swiss border at an altitude near 1000 mtrs. The wonderful view on the landscape helps me to put into perspective all the trivial or impolite remarks that I read here and there. :) Time now for the ramble. Good afternoon.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.31, 12:04:47
You don't need a supercap. As each cycle of the signal is identical to the others and the battery is alleged to be charged, each cycle must contribute equally to the charge. Therefore a capacitor able to power only some cycles is required, as it would be recharged at each cycle (so no need of a long time constant). Some thousands of µF would be far enough, with in parallel a lower HF cap to deal with signal transitions, provided that the capacitor is sized for high currents.
It have to sustain as many cycles that is required for the cap in the AV-plug to charge.
I have 15000uF 63v electrolytics that can sustain 14A ripplecurrent at 50Hz.
Maybe one of those will work?
The problem is that they have the size of a sodacan :o
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.07.31, 12:26:14
You provide yourself an equivalent schematics of a Li-Ion battery, based on a capacitor, and after, you say that "a capacitor is nothing like a Li Ion battery". It is terrible C.C.
Sorry, not much time now to correct all the mistakes from people not skilled in electronics. Too much work and I'm on holidays, typing this message from a chalet in the mountains of the swiss border at an altitude near 1000 mtrs. The wonderful view on the landscape helps me to put into perspective all the trivial or impolite remarks that I read here and there. :) Time now for the ramble. Good afternoon.
Come down from your high heels ;)
Even NASA have experimented with AV-plugs to pull charges from empty space so I couldnt care less about your electronic skills.
Sitting on an alptop wasting money on the 3G network just to tells us something doesnt work :o
What kind of worldsaver are you?
I am an electronics engineer and even so I cant explain some of the findings people here are doing.
If its just capacitive coupling then explain what charges an Avramenko-plug when its sitting in deepspace?
Jan you can parallel a super cap with a low ESR cap, the super cap will trickle power into the low esr cap, the low esr cap will be supplying the fast burst of power and be charged by the Super cap.
Yes, I'll do that.
2 parallell supercaps with a 4700uF electrolytic.
It has an ESR of only 4ohms.
That makes a total of 98700uF and the 4700uF taking the ripple current.
I think there is an advantage of using battery instead of capacitors. Let's say you throw a ball of paper. If you use all your might, the ball get a good distance. If you use minimal power, the ball get lesser distance. However, comparing the input to output, you rather use minimal power because it is more efficient.
It may be possible that the battery voltage drop because it is operating inefficient at higher current.
Ok, the schematics has been a bit revised.
Still need som limiting circuit in the feedbackloop to keep the charge in the caps below 5.5v
It would still need a battery to get started.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 12:57:41
Even NASA have experimented with AV-plugs to pull charges from empty space so I couldnt care less about your electronic skills.
Do you have a reference for NASA's use of AV-plugs?
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 12:57:41
If its just capacitive coupling then explain what charges an Avramenko-plug when its sitting in deepspace?
Again, do you have a reference for this claim?
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 10:55:54
A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.
What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?
Is this the claim? Certainly a possibility but definitive testing and data is required to support the claim....and replication.
I am happy to see you gentlemen raising the right questions. A battery is certainly different than a capacitor, yet under certain conditions it can be made to somewhat resemble a battery. The model shown does not exactly match a Li Ion battery. There are no non-linear elements in this model. The charge / discharge curve for a Li Ion would not match the circuit shown, but it is a start.
Edit: Ri is a non linear element
Rm is the resistance of the metallic path through the cell including the terminals, electrodes and inter-connections.
Ra is the resistance of the electrochemical path including the electrolyte and the separator.
Cb is the capacitance of the parallel plates which form the electrodes of the cell.
Ri is the
non-linear contact resistance between the plate or electrode and the electrolyte.
I wrongly assumed all elements were linear. So this cannot be modeled with simple resistors.
EX is right to raise the questions and Janost has some good replies. Time will tell, be patient and remain as gentlemen.
I support both points of view, which should not be silenced.
Janost's circuit is one of the more interesting to hit the forum in recent days.
I would, however, limit the gate firing current with a resistor (1000 ohm) in series with the GDT so as to not blow the gate or waste too much of the charging energy of the 330 uf cap. Also a small gate to cathode resistor (100 ohm) will prevent false triggering effects. Replacing the GDT with a diac and RC time constant generator might provide more control over the triggering independent of charging. All this is moot though if it destroys the effect.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.31, 13:48:23
Do you have a reference for NASA's use of AV-plugs?
Again, do you have a reference for this claim?
Sorry, I couldnt find any official document from NASA.
Only other people claiming so and thats not good enough :-[
Quote from: ION on 2012.07.31, 14:02:46
I would, however, limit the gate firing current with a resistor (1000 ohm) in series with the GDT so as to not blow the gate or waste too much of the charging energy of the 330 uf cap. Also a small gate to cathode resistor (100 ohm) will prevent false triggering effects. Replacing the GDT with a diac and RC time constant generator might provide more control over the triggering independent of charging. All this is moot though if it destroys the effect.
I think you are right.
To get the 1.5v 30mA gate fire current I calculated the gate resistor to 6,4Kohm
Perhaps 3Kohm or 4,7Kohm to make sure i fires.
The feedback could be done with a potentiometer from the rectified output to feed back just the amount of current it consumes.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 10:55:54
A heatpump pumps heat from the ambient outside (Air/ground) into the house.
What if my device does the same?
Pumps electrons from the ambient?
you got the right idea, sort of
Your capacitor is wide open though, with no cummulative pumping.
Harold Aspden has a very good design for this, if you are interested. I think Kapanadze's Garden Demo device used the same principles, as did Ed Gray's device. Aspden actually explains it though.
I've worked with the AV-Plug, and while not difinitive, I don't see how it can be OU. Going over the literature, it is presented as a means of one-wire transmission, and I believe that it accomplishes that.
I'd replace the GDT with an avalanche transistor stack and no gap.
Hi Janost
I see you replaced your transistor blocking oscillator design with the relay interrupter.
Presumably this will provide much faster transitions / rise time than ever attainable with a blocking oscillator.
I have experimented with using a large relay such as an old telephone relay (long coil, many turns of fine wire) in an interrupter arrangement. The voltage on break can be quite high on the relay coil and can possibly feed the AV plug directly, negating the need for an ignition coil. One end of the coil is grounded. Eliminate the small cap on the coil for fastest risetime.
I have also played with a set of interrupter contacts directly affixed to the bottom of an ignition coil and activated to break as the coil current builds (like an old free running Model T ignition coil). This can be made adjustable to set frequency etc.
Arrangements such as this are used in the old "Violet Ray" medical instruments of the turn of the last century.
What charges the cap in an AV-plug is an oscillating field with a huge potential.
It could be capcitive coupling but that wont explain why it performs better with a groundconnection.
The thing here with the singel-wire transmission is that the currentdraw of the circuit does not increase when the output is loaded.
Quote from: ION on 2012.07.31, 15:05:10
Hi Janost
I see you replaced your transistor blocking oscillator design with the relay interrupter.
Presumably this will provide much faster transitions / rise time than ever attainable with a blocking oscillator.
I have experimented with using a large relay such as an old telephone relay (long coil, many turns of fine wire) in an interrupter arrangement. The voltage on break can be quite high on the relay coil and can possibly feed the AV plug directly, negating the need for an ignition coil. One end of the coil is grounded. Eliminate the small cap on the coil for fastest risetime.
I have also played with a set of interrupter contacts directly affixed to the bottom of an ignition coil and activated to break as the coil current builds (like an old free running Model T ignition coil). This can be made adjustable to set frequency etc.
Arrangements such as this are used in the old "Violet Ray" medical instruments of the turn of the last century.
The advantage of using an ignitioncoil is that it has a ringdown.
With the selfcapitance of HV secondary the ringdown frequency is approx. 2,7KHz.
So its not just a singel HV-pulse but an oscillating field.
That makes a fast charge of the cap in the AV-plug.
The second stage of my replication (without thyristor load circuit) has been completed.
I used a 3 button cell NICAD charged to a capacity of 41mA/hr and this powered the circuit for 3hrs 40m. The final recorded voltage 45 mins before the circuit died was 1.448 and operating frequency was 20.83KHz. The frequency at start of run was around 9KHz. It can be clearly seen from this that a much larger capacity set of NICAD or NiMH cells would run the circuit for a very long time. An AA NICAD's or NiMH battery would be at least 12x the capacity of my button cell battery and if high capacity could be as much as 50x greater! Also, a battery delivering an average current at just a fraction of its say 20hr rating will in effect have a virtual capacity far in excess of its rated capacity, especially when being pulse discharged. It is also clear to me that once the battery voltage has stabilised, very little if any energy is actually charging the battery. It is therefore important when using AA or larger sized batteries with this circuit to ensure that the test run period is sufficiently long enough to see the full discharge curve of the battery in the recorded readings. Just because the voltmeter appears to be holding steady for a long time, don't just assume that the circuit is self-running. Although I am not sure why this happens, I've seen this effect many times in my experiments when using HF / HV circuits and think its a battery vagary and one that often fools experimenters into thinking they have achieved self-running.
I have still to carry out a third test when I will add the thyristor load circuit but so far, although I certainly do not have a self-runner, I feel that this circuit is worthy of further study.
Hoppy
Attached is a paper discussing tests of three 1kw single-wire transmission systems. While losses are significantly reduced, and very high power can be transmitted, there is no mention of OU.
It uses capacitive and displacement current. You are measuring conduction current.
Hoppy
If you look at the discharge graph for NiMh battery it's so different to Lithium, if indeed impedance is key then NiMh may not work.
What i would suggest is try a LiFePO4 cell, these are also lithium based but will not burn your house down, they are safe and do not run away with temperature, they are 3.2V operating instead of 3.7 though, but the discharge characteristics should be close enough to assure battery impedance com patability.
See below for NiMh discharge graph, the depleted slope is no where as sharp as the Li ION
Quote from: Peterae on 2012.07.31, 15:50:36
Hoppy
If you look at the discharge graph for NiMh battery it's so different to Lithium, if indeed impedance is key then NiMh may not work.
What i would suggest is try a LiFePO4 cell, these are also lithium based but will not burn your house down, they are safe and do not run away with temperature, they are 3.2V operating instead of 3.7 though, but the discharge characteristics should be close enough to assure battery impedance com patability.
See below for NiMh discharge graph, the depleted slope is no where as sharp as the Li ION
Peterae,
Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.
Hoppy
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 13:30:59
Ok, the schematics has been a bit revised.
Still need som limiting circuit in the feedbackloop to keep the charge in the caps below 5.5v
A simple DC-DC converter circuit like the cheap ones you can get on eBay would probably work. Some have fairly high efficiency too. Like here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC-DC-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-Power-Supply-Output-1-23V-30V-/251066005460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a74b337d4
A whole $1.74 includes shipping.
A possibly better efficiency one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM2596-DC-DC-Converter-4-40V-to-1-5-35V-Step-down-Adjustable-Power-Supply-Module-/150841896858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231ee0af9a
for $3.97 including shipping
And this one says 96.7% efficient: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Buck-Step-Down-Voltage-Module-4-75-24V-to-0-93-18V-2-5A-Output-/280771114482?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415f4335f2
for $4.30
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 13:07:14
Yes, I'll do that.
2 parallell supercaps with a 4700uF electrolytic.
It has an ESR of only 4ohms.
That makes a total of 98700uF and the 4700uF taking the ripple current.
The relay runs for about 40 seconds on the fully charged 98700uF cap-bank.
The current draw by the relay ticker is 7.5mA O0
Correction: it runs for 57 seconds on the charged bank.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.07.31, 16:18:39
A simple DC-DC converter circuit like the cheap ones you can get on eBay would probably work. Some have fairly high efficiency too. Like here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/1pcs-DC-DC-Buck-Converter-Step-Down-Module-LM2596-Power-Supply-Output-1-23V-30V-/251066005460?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3a74b337d4
A whole $1.74 includes shipping.
A possibly better efficiency one: http://www.ebay.com/itm/LM2596-DC-DC-Converter-4-40V-to-1-5-35V-Step-down-Adjustable-Power-Supply-Module-/150841896858?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item231ee0af9a
for $3.97 including shipping
And this one says 96.7% efficient: http://www.ebay.com/itm/DC-DC-Converter-Buck-Step-Down-Voltage-Module-4-75-24V-to-0-93-18V-2-5A-Output-/280771114482?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item415f4335f2
for $4.30
Why not a simple 7805 To-92 100mA?
I cant connect the ignitoncoil like in the schematics.
The HV output is only 22v :o
If I connect the ignitioncoil parallell to he relay coil there is 10Kv output but the current drawn is 1.4A
The kickback from just the relaycoil is 46v.
Perhaps if I could charge a capacitor with that and dump the capacitor into ignitioncoil primary?
Back to the drawingboard.
these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below. This might be advantageous in a mobile application. If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.
EM
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 16:31:48
Why not a simple 7805 To-92 100mA?
I just thought those DC-DC converters would provide better isolation. I forget what the max input volts are for a 7805 but those converters can handle up around 40 volts. And isolation might be important to prevent a runaway if you are really getting some OU here. I've got some parts ordered....
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.07.31, 17:35:31
these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below. This might be advantageous in a mobile application. If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.
EM
your schematic is a Delon voltage doubler:
QuoteThe Delon circuit uses a bridge topology for voltage doubling. This form of circuit was, at one time, commonly found in cathode ray tube television sets where it was used to provide an e.h.t. voltage supply. Generating voltages in excess of 5 kV with a transformer has safety issues in terms of domestic equipment and in any case is uneconomic. However, black and white television sets required an e.h.t. of 10 kV and colour sets even more. Voltage doublers were used to either double the voltage on an e.h.t winding on the mains transformer or were applied to the waveform on the line flyback coils.[7]
The circuit consists of two half-wave peak detectors, functioning in exactly the same way as the peak detector cell in the Greinacher circuit. Each of the two peak detector cells operates on opposite half-cycles of the incoming waveform. Since their outputs are in series, the output is twice the peak input voltage.
Janost,
Can't you just drive the ignition coil with a transistor or FET?
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.31, 17:44:25
Can't you just drive the ignition coil with a transistor or FET?[/font]
That was my intention, just wanted a quick testcircuit with a relay.
If I rewire the relay so that it shorts itself instead of breaking and put that in series with the ignitioncoil it should work better.
But it needs the capacitor over the relaycoil or it will burn the contacts.
And a shuntresistor to the ignitioncoil to be able to lower the currentdraw.
Just using the relaykickback of 46v and have away with the ignitioncoil could work as a Lead-Acid batterycharger.
As the current used is only 7.5mA it could possibly selfrun if the relaycoil is grounded.
3rd revision :)
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 17:52:06
That was my intention, just wanted a quick testcircuit with a relay.
If I rewire the relay so that it shorts itself instead of breaking and put that in series with the ignitioncoil it should work better.
But it needs the capacitor over the relaycoil or it will burn the contacts.
And a shuntresistor to the ignitioncoil to be able to lower the currentdraw.
Just using the relaykickback of 46v and have away with the ignitioncoil could work as a Lead-Acid batterycharger.
As the current used is only 7.5mA it could possibly selfrun if the relaycoil is grounded.
If you want to self-run, then you have to attach to the wheel-work of Nature. Vacuum constituents are in constant rotation: continuous, never ending, free for the taking. Several appear to have accomplished this, but Harold Aspden explains it well.
Here is a link the the thread on this site for Aspden's concentric capacitor device.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1023.msg15523#msg15523
He calculated output in the kW range from a bench-top device:
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.07.31, 18:25:38
If you want to self-run, then you have to attach to the wheel-work of Nature. Vacuum constituents are in constant rotation: continuous, never ending, free for the taking. Several appear to have accomplished this, but Harold Aspden explains it well.
Here is a link the the thread on this site for Aspden's concentric capacitor device.
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=1023.msg15523#msg15523
He calculated output in the kW range from a bench-top device:
It doesnt really have to selfrun.
It is enough if it runs a couple of months on a battery generating a substantial amount of power during that time.
If you are into coils and kickback the kickback pulse will draw electrons out of a ground connection if the coil is grounded.
The potential changes so abrupt that the electrons have nowhere else to go than up the wire.
And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.
The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.
However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v O0
It takes about 20kW to operate and EV.
5kW is a good average for a home. Much more with electric heating or air conditioning.
Our energy requirements are enormous.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.07.31, 16:07:03
Peterae,
Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.
Hoppy
Ordinary alkaline batterys have the same properties as a Li-Ion however they are not rechargable.
But you could have the battery feeding trough a diode parallell with a cap feeding trough a diode and charging only the cap.
That would work greate.
Like this circuit.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.07.31, 16:07:03
Peterae,
Good suggestion. I've tried LiION in previous experiments but not LiFePO4. However, I would like to see some of us try LiION as used by Janost but in a controlled condition where the circuit can be physically protected just in case of ignition. Janost is claiming self-running with LiION and for the sake of a really true replication we should try LiION at the same capacity as Janost uses. Perhaps Janost could post a photo of his battery and state its capacity? He has not reported any problems running with his LiION battery, so with suitable protection, this would be a good way of seeing if the battery chemistry is the key.
Hoppy
Li-Ion are not dangerous if you meet these 4 requirements:
Never discharge below 2.5v, nothing happens but when you charge it again they will be a full short.
Never charge above 4.2v, doing so will cause a thermal runaway and they will combust, very bad!
Never discharge with a current higher than 0.1C, same as above, explosion or combustion.
Never charge with more than 0.1C unless you have control of the cell temperature, again thermal runaway can happen.
I have about 150 of these 18650 Li-Ion cells as I work with computers.
In a laptop the control circuit scraps the battery if just a singel cell i bad so I collect these scrapped laptop batteries.
When I first started using these I soldered 16 of these in parallell for a 3.6v 35Ah Li-Ion battery.
Very bad as all sorts of dangers could have happened but I didnt know and nothing happened.
They are safe if you know what you are doing ;)
Thanks for this update:
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 18:48:06
And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.
The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.
However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v O0
A remarkable accomplishment! I encourage you to keep that "first electronpump " intact, as is, for posterity sake if nothing else.
Can you remind us -- what was the parallel load? and did you measure how much output power it was actually drawing?
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 18:48:06
And my first electronpump stopped last night after 13days and the Li-Ion cell reached 2.79v
2 weeks is a long time generating power to a parallell load.
The problem with the blocking-osc is it's enormous currentdraw when the transistor is conducting.
If that could be reduced it would work better.
However after the Li-Ion cell being disconnected for 4hours it is running again with a cellvoltage of 2.81v O0
Janost,
Can you please let give the capacity of your LiION cell and its manufacturer?
Hoppy
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.07.31, 20:09:46
Thanks for this update:
A remarkable accomplishment! I encourage you to keep that "first electronpump " intact, as is, for posterity sake if nothing else.
Can you remind us -- what was the parallel load? and did you measure how much output power it was actually drawing?
My parallell load is just a 12v LED bulb.
They are about 3w and not shining with the full strength.
I know its not much but the goal is to keep the pump running.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.07.31, 20:14:35
Janost,
Can you please let give the capacity of your LiION cell and its manufacturer?
Hoppy
It is a standard 18650 2200mAh cell.
The one used in about every laptop on this planet.
Quote from: janost on 2012.07.31, 20:22:02
It is a standard 18650 2200mAh cell.
The one used in about every laptop on this planet.
Thanks Janost.
Hoppy
I know that 2.81v is on the backslope of a Li-Ion but it works and balances.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.07.31, 20:25:02
Thanks Janost.
Hoppy
Find a laptop battery thrown to recycling.
Open the pack, disconnect the cells from each other and throw the ones with a voltage of less than 2.5v back again.
The ones with a voltage over 2.5v are good to use.
Ok, after rearranging after my new schematics it draws 91mA with a shuntresistance of 42ohms.
It lights a small CFL so there is HV for sure.
Now it runs for 4seconds on a full charge in the cap-bank.
The relay sounds awfull and I dont expect it to last for long.
I would like to have a pot as shunt so that I could adjust it for low power but I think it needs to be a wirewound or else it would be history.
I always like to touch my HV circuits and its not dangerous.
Nothing happened at first with the CFL but when I touched the other end, bang, it lit up like a christmas-tree ;D
ok, I got it down to 35mA driving an ignitioncoil and still lighting a CFL.
Just a couple notes on 18650 batteries and Li-Ion batteries as I've got a long history with them studying all their characteristics when involved with a group that was intensely interested in them and maximizing the battery life as well as keeping things safe. New 18650's have higher mah ratings than older ones and have become very affordable. New ones with protection built in can be had for as little as about $1.60 each for 3000 mah batteries (one example here: http://www.ebay.com/itm/2x-UltraFire-18650-3000mAh-3-7V-Rechargeable-Flashlight-Torch-Li-ion-Battery-Red-/280915632484?pt=US_Rechargeable_Batteries&hash=item4167e06164 ) and that includes shipping. If you value you Li-Ions you will never let them go below 2.8 volts but it's really best to never let them go below about 3.2 volts as they have almost no capacity left by that point. If you charge them to 4.10 volts max you will double the amount of cycles you get out of them (probably 1000 cycles rather than 500) versus charging them to a full 4.20 volts. You will only have about 10% less capacity or run time starting at 4.10 volts versus 4.20 volts. Avoid running these cells in series unless all are balanced and at the same exact voltage. Doing otherwise is where dangerous problems can start. While only a little larger physically than a AA battery they have a lot more power and thus danger if not used properly.
Like janost I've gotten a lot of them from tearing apart laptops so if you have access to them that way it's a way to recycle and save a few bucks but as I mentioned they have gotten incredibly cheap (probably due to the competition of so many making them for laptops as well as other gadgets) so it's cheap also to get new ones which you know have never been run down to a point that they become dangerous to recharge. If you've never seen one ignite or explode search youtube and you can see the effects of them. Also the fumes from one that has thermal runaway (flames) is extremely toxic - even a whiff can send you to the hospital. That being said I still feel they are safe if treated right.
janost, a couple of thoughts... You say you were running a 12 volt LED for a couple weeks. LED's normally run direct at about 3 to 5 volts max unless they are huge multi-die LED's. A 12 volt LED makes me think you have an automotive LED which may use a down converter or even just a resistor to reduce the voltage and thus waste power in heat or converting it down to the LED's voltage. If you have some bare LED's you might do better to run 3 or 4 in series direct if you have a 12 volt output. But what I'm more interested in is if you can use some of the output to feed back to the battery to possibly keep it charged while still running a small load. That would of course make it the 'self-runner' as the title of this thread indicates and would be something to jump up and down screaming like a little kid about ;) Have you tried anything like this yet? Those cheap DC-DC converters I mentioned (which I've got a couple of them and am always looking for things to try looping back on with them) or even a 7805 you mentioned might do it. What do you think? I think if it's not a self runner it's just another very efficient circuit. I do look forward to trying some things with it as I've got parts on the way.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 01:05:51
ok, I got it down to 35mA driving an ignitioncoil and still lighting a CFL.
I have parts on the way also, and wonder WHICH circuit do you think is better, the one with the ignition coil, or the one with the bug-zapper coil? (Better in terms of overall Pout/Pin)
Thanks for the pointers and the ebay source for Li Ion batteries, e2matrix -- I'll be careful!
@Janost
Hello and I have two questions if possible.
I would like to know on the first circuit unit, when you measure the battery voltage, do you always leave the volt meter on the battery or do you just touch the meter probes to the battery only when you want to know the voltage. Sometimes on such low voltage systems, just leaving the meter probes on a battery can keep it from falling. I have been spooked by that more then once. lol
My last question is one of frequency in that circuit. The frequency seems set by all factors ok but mainly the 630nF capacitor that regulates an overall fixed working frequency. But if one wanted to do the same circuit but with a variable frequency generator, would the following change to the diagram be correct. (See diagram change). Seems to me that there must be a much better frequency to find then to simply rely on the default. Finding that better frequency may assist in then making a better fixed circuit to drive the base.
Maybe our friendly neighborhood hero @woopy can take a shot at it. hehe
wattsup
PS: If the mod is wrong, please correct.
Quote from: wattsup on 2012.08.01, 05:06:09
@Janost
Hello and I have two questions if possible.
I would like to know on the first circuit unit, when you measure the battery voltage, do you always leave the volt meter on the battery or do you just touch the meter probes to the battery only when you want to know the voltage. Sometimes on such low voltage systems, just leaving the meter probes on a battery can keep it from falling. I have been spooked by that more then once. lol
My last question is one of frequency in that circuit. The frequency seems set by all factors ok but mainly the 630nF capacitor that regulates an overall fixed working frequency. But if one wanted to do the same circuit but with a variable frequency generator, would the following change to the diagram be correct. (See diagram change). Seems to me that there must be a much better frequency to find then to simply rely on the default. Finding that better frequency may assist in then making a better fixed circuit to drive the base.
Maybe our friendly neighborhood hero @woopy can take a shot at it. hehe
wattsup
PS: If the mod is wrong, please correct.
I just touch the probes to the battery not leaving them there.
The frequency of the blocking-osc is set by the stepup transformer inductance.
If you want to have it adjustable then yes, your mod is correct.
The advantage of having a controllable osc is that you can set the pulseratio and decrease the currentdraw.
The 630nF cap sets the operating frequency of the stepdown transformer.
It is approx. 20Hz and a smaller cap charges faster but contains less energy to discharge.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.01, 04:11:49
janost, a couple of thoughts... You say you were running a 12 volt LED for a couple weeks. LED's normally run direct at about 3 to 5 volts max unless they are huge multi-die LED's. A 12 volt LED makes me think you have an automotive LED which may use a down converter or even just a resistor to reduce the voltage and thus waste power in heat or converting it down to the LED's voltage. If you have some bare LED's you might do better to run 3 or 4 in series direct if you have a 12 volt output. But what I'm more interested in is if you can use some of the output to feed back to the battery to possibly keep it charged while still running a small load. That would of course make it the 'self-runner' as the title of this thread indicates and would be something to jump up and down screaming like a little kid about ;) Have you tried anything like this yet? Those cheap DC-DC converters I mentioned (which I've got a couple of them and am always looking for things to try looping back on with them) or even a 7805 you mentioned might do it. What do you think? I think if it's not a self runner it's just another very efficient circuit. I do look forward to trying some things with it as I've got parts on the way.
I just used a load that would visualize that it is running.
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.08.01, 04:20:40
I have parts on the way also, and wonder WHICH circuit do you think is better, the one with the ignition coil, or the one with the bug-zapper coil? (Better in terms of overall Pout/Pin)
Thanks for the pointers and the ebay source for Li Ion batteries, e2matrix -- I'll be careful!
It is just a matter of how much you want build.
If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.
The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.
Both do the same.
The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.
Do you think that adding the standard breakerpoint capacitor of 0.22uF over the ignitioncoil primary will increase the coil ringing?
I will try the stepdown without an AV-plug first to see if it operates any differently.
By that I mean rectifying the HV, using a parallell sparkgap and a series capacitor to get the stepdown to ring.
The Tesla way.
Here is a very simple self-running candidate for those who like to experiment but dont want to build that much.
When the switch is closed the capacitor charges and when the switch is opened it runs for about 30seconds charging the battery with kickback pulses.
A second relay could be wired in to operate the switch automatically.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 10:53:19
Here is a very simple self-running candidate for those who like to experiment but dont want to build that much.
When the switch is closed the capacitor charges and when the switch is opened it runs for about 30seconds charging the battery with kickback pulses.
A second relay could be wired in to operate the switch automatically.
Janost,
Why do you term this circuit a self-running candidate?
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.01, 11:45:42
Janost,
Why do you term this circuit a self-running candidate?
Hoppy
Same as the electronpump, the kickback pulses are stronger when grounding the coil.
It can be tested with a capacitor instead of the battery but needs a battery to start.
Quote from: EMdevices on 2012.07.31, 17:35:31
these circuits are really unbalanced to balanced transitions, and so we can eliminate the ground with the schematic below. This might be advantageous in a mobile application. If it doesn't work, than perhaps the earth ground is necessary after all.
EM
It is elegant. I don't think we want large current running which loads the primary, but we do not want so little current which does not make enough feed back. I think one can adjust ground to give more output or direct connect and adjust cap value. Increase output would increase input, but if we can trade little input for more output, why not.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 10:18:58
I will try the stepdown without an AV-plug first to see if it operates any differently.
By that I mean rectifying the HV, using a parallell sparkgap and a series capacitor to get the stepdown to ring.
The Tesla way.
This did not work well.
The GDT strikes once per second.
I changed the cap to 13nF and it strikes with 114Hz but no energy goes in to the transformer.
I think all the energy just goes into the GDT an none into the transformer.
Would i work better with the GDT in series and the cap parallell?
Well back to the AV-plug as I know that it works.
The kick-back is at a very low level in terms of what energy is available to charge the battery after the battery has stabilised, so cannot replace the much higher level of energy consumed by the oscillator. A more sophisticated earthing arrangement may possibly help to increase any energy pumped from the ground.
Hoppy
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 09:21:34
It is just a matter of how much you want build.
If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.
The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.
Both do the same.
The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps. It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads. Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.
QuoteQuote from: janost on Today at 10:21:34
It is just a matter of how much you want build.
If you build the bugzapper version you only need to find a tennisracket bugzapper and the HV-gen is prebuilt.
But they draw a rather large current.
The relay ignitioncoil version can lower the currentdraw but the relay will fail being run in a bad mode.
Both do the same.
The relayversion might be useful using only the relay.
It draws a tiny 7.5mA oscillating and run on 6v.
But the kickback pulses are 46v and grounded it can charge a battery or capacitor without any transformers.
It ran for 57seconds using only my cap-bank.
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps. It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads. Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.01, 17:44:50
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps. It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads. Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.
Thanks for the reply, Janost -- and I agree with e2matrix!
I have a question about DC-to-DC converters, as recommended above (I think by e2matrix) -- does anyone know HOW they work? I'm guessing they go DC to AC, step down (or step up) transformer, then rectify back to DC -- but would like to know!
Photo from an advertisement at eBay, for one of the converters I've ordered. Quite high efficiency at 98% !
It looks like they dumped the output power into a 12-ohm resistor... what do you think?
If the "special grounding" is a key here to Janost's build, what if we started with a DC-to-DC converter and added the special grounding at some point?....?
Quote from: PhysicsProf on 2012.08.01, 17:54:18
Thanks for the reply, Janost -- and I agree with e2matrix!
I have a question about DC-to-DC converters, as recommended above (I think by e2matrix) -- does anyone know HOW they work? I'm guessing they go DC to AC, step down (or step up) transformer, then rectify back to DC -- but would like to know!
Photo from an advertisement at eBay, for one of the converters I've ordered. Quite high efficiency at 98% !
It looks like they dumped the output power into a 12-ohm resistor... what do you think?
If the "special grounding" is a key here to Janost's build, what if we started with a DC-to-DC converter and added the special grounding at some point?....?
DC-DC converters are usually buck or boost converters.
The charge a singel coil and adds the kickback to the supply-voltage.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.01, 17:44:50
I think that is quite amazing it ran for 57 seconds off of caps. It's not like it was Super Caps in the hundreds of Farads. Must be some resonance, ringing or something special going on here.
7.5mA is almost 1/3 of the current drawn by an standard red LED.
I measured the current from the battery charging the cap-bank.
When the relay is wired to break its own supply the contacts open before the relay hits the opposite side and it relaxes again.
It operates around 300Hz.
But powered on 6V it generates a kickback pulse of 46v and it does so 300times/sec and that is indeed power.
The thing with these is that they cannot self-run without an isolation transformer because it would short out the coil no matter how you connect the feedback.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 16:45:58
This did not work well.
The GDT strikes once per second.
I changed the cap to 13nF and it strikes with 114Hz but no energy goes in to the transformer.
I think all the energy just goes into the GDT an none into the transformer.
Would i work better with the GDT in series and the cap parallell?
Well back to the AV-plug as I know that it works.
Hi Janost,
Hm... It does looks like the 3:1 trafo choking the current. If GDT series and cap parallel would strike more than 1 Hz, we would know. lol
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.08.01, 18:46:39
Hi Janost,
Hm... It does looks like the 3:1 trafo choking the current. If GDT series and cap parallel would strike more than 1 Hz, we would know. lol
I measured the primary of the stepdown an it has a DC-resistans of only 7.6ohms :o
Its not broken because I have used it on line-power.
I will never get this one ringing without the SCR.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.01, 19:13:54
I measured the primary of the stepdown an it has a DC-resistans of only 7.6ohms :o
Its not broken because I have used it on line-power.
I will never get this one ringing without the SCR.
Weird, It doesn't make sense that connection is doing worse than single wire. Unless the single diode posting problem. Maybe full wave rectifier?
Ok, I see it now. You're right, it's the SCR. We could use your third revision but connect ground to cap?
Here is another circuit I played with this morning.
Even though the cap is just 47000uF this one runs for almost 1min 30sec.
Still need some adjustment and perhaps a SCR to increase current in the second transformer.
Warning!
Even after the circuit dies there is still almost 200V left in the capacitor!
I found out the hard way.
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.08.01, 20:58:14
Ok, I see it now. You're right, it's the SCR. We could use your third revision but connect ground to cap?
It have to be built like a SCR-ignition or CDI.
The cap charges from the HV through the primary winding and when the SCR fires the cap get connected across the primary.
The reverse diode over the SCR carries the reverse current when the primary is ringing.
1N4007's do not make good avalanche diodes
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.02, 10:11:01
Here is another circuit I played with this morning.
Even though the cap is just 47000uF this one runs for almost 1min 30sec.
Still need some adjustment and perhaps a SCR to increase current in the second transformer.
Warning!
Even after the circuit dies there is still almost 200V left in the capacitor!
I found out the hard way.
Thanks Janost,
I'm satisfy with Ticker2 configuration. It may not be better than AV plug method, but it is mobilize now. lol
Quote from: GibbsHelmholtz on 2012.08.02, 13:35:20
Thanks Janost,
I'm satisfy with Ticker2 configuration. It may not be better than AV plug method, but it is mobilize now. lol
Just remember that pulsing a transformer backwards like this is not a toy.
The output is not HV and it will light bulbs and drive motors.
The pulses out from the transformer are over 300V with a current of 20mA.
Without the GDT my capacitor got charged to 350VDC.
You can get some nasty shocks.
Janost,
Have you worked out the average power consumed by your 6V pulsing relay over the discharge period of the big cap to the point of cut-off? This will enable you to calculate the energy consumed by the circuit to see if this is in excess of what should be possible from the fully charged cap. Its Joules in and out that will determine if anything special is happening, not just volts and current.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.02, 15:28:27
Janost,
Have you worked out the average power consumed by your 6V pulsing relay over the discharge period of the big cap to the point of cut-off? This will enable you to calculate the energy consumed by the circuit to see if this is in excess of what should be possible from the fully charged cap. Its Joules in and out that will determine if anything special is happening, not just volts and current.
Hoppy
I have worked out what the ticker draws by inserting the multimeter between a battery and the cap-bank.
That way it just shows how much needs to be refilled into the caps to keep it running.
This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.
It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.
The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC
Rather than using a single diode bootstrap and clamp (snubber) diode, use a bridge rectifier on the secondary. This will steer the positive pulse and the ringback into the large capacitors and utilize all of the stored magnetic energy rather than wasting it in the clamp (snubber) diode.
The only ringing left in the primary will be due to leakage inductance.
Since you are using an isolation transformer, this should not pose a problem.
The doubler circuit you show above is also a good way to do it.
When I play with circuits like this, I use a external source to feed the large caps with just enough current limiting to keep it running. Then as I perform the tuning operations and circuit changes, I can observe lower and lower current required from the external source. Then I know I am heading in the right direction.
I prefer the bugzapper circuits as they give me kilovolts with just an AA battery.
But the currentdraw is a bit to large.
To swing a relay with just a few milliamps is greate but the output is lower.
Quote from: ION on 2012.08.02, 18:34:44
When I play with circuits like this, I use a external source to feed the large caps with just enough current limiting to keep it running. Then as I perform the tuning operations and circuit changes, I can observe lower and lower current required from the external source. Then I know I am heading in the right direction.
When I play with these voltages I connect a transformer backwards to an AC wallwart and plug it in.
That gives me 250VAC isolated and nothing bad will happen even if I touch it or it gets shorted.
It is an isolated line level source and I wish more people would do the same instead of doing things with wall-power.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.02, 17:02:01
This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.
It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.
The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC
Quick run on numbers that seems like about COP > 14.9 !!! That's just looking at the AC output! Is that correct ? I just jumped in for a quick look here and haven't read the last page or so.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.03, 00:47:02
Quick run on numbers that seems like about COP > 14.9 !!! That's just looking at the AC output! Is that correct ? I just jumped in for a quick look here and haven't read the last page or so.
No, that is not correct.
It is the power it delivers into a full short.
The voltage may not be high in a full short but it is the current that makes you jump out of the chair.
Why do you argue if you havent built it yourself?
I just said it it dangerous, I didnt say that that you should touch the wires.
You dont really get it do you?
You think that it is the voltage that kills you?
I have lit Neon-tubes with 1200v through my body and not felt a thing.
But there is no amperage in that.
The last thing I want is people knowing how everthing works without trying a single thing themself.
And where did you get your COP numbers from?
Did you calculate them from the voltages?
WTF!
COP 14??!! Where did you get that!!
It is a 3VA transformer and 250VAC and 0.008A makes 2watts so what is your problem?
I'm pissed and input ended here :(
I dont need you on my back and there will be no more input on this forum!
I'm going to logoff forever but I just want to see your answer first.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 00:55:58
No, that is not correct.
It is the power it delivers into a full short.
The voltage may not be high in a full short but it is the current that makes you jump out of the chair.
Why do you argue if you havent built it yourself?
I just said it it dangerous, I didnt say that that you should touch the wires.
You dont really get it do you?
You think that it is the voltage that kills you?
I have lit Neon-tubes with 1200v through my body and not felt a thing.
But there is no amperage in that.
The last thing I want is people knowing how everthing works without trying a single thing themself.
And where did you get your COP numbers from?
Did you calculate them from the voltages?
WTF!
COP 14??!! Where did you get that!!
It is a 3VA transformer and 250VAC and 0.008A makes 2watts so what is your problem?
I'm pissed and input ended here :(
I dont need you on my back and ther will be no more input on this forum!
Very strange.... I've only been encouraging here. I'm building this but waiting on parts. I've gotten some today. I've been building electronic devices for over 50 years. No that's not my age. I know voltage doesn't kill - where did that come from. I said nothing about voltage. I said nothing about touching wires either. You seem seriously confused or are mixing me up with someone else's message. It doesn't even sound like your message is directed at me as it makes no sense - I wasn't arguing anything. I was asking about COP which I didn't know if you had a load you measured on or what so I was largely asking and had simply calculated by multiplying the input you gave Volts times amps and dividing that result into the result from the output you gave volts times amps. In other words watts in divided into watts out. I don't have any problems and am just trying to understand and was trying to be supportive but you are acting like a full moon crazy. I really don't understand your reaction here and it doesn't sound like you unless you been tipping a few too many brews ? Any way I intended nothing offensive toward you. No need to leave here because of me - I'm not on this forum that much anyway. Regards
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.02, 17:02:01
This is my Lab-ticker that I use for quick mockups.
It draws 32mA from a 4.5V battery and makes a pitched whining when running.
The output is 250VAC or 500VDC and the output reach 200VDC in just a couple of cycles.
Output current is 8.6mA AC and 3.2mA DC
Draw is .032 A x 4.5 V = 0.144 watts
Output is .0086 A x 250 V = 2.15 watts
Output / Input = 2.15 / 0.144 = 14.93 more out than in - but I'm just comparing watts not Joules so maybe that means nothing. I was asking. I don't know all this in depth but I thought it sounded good and encouraging. Almost too good so I was ASKING. I do not know why you would take offense for that.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.03, 02:05:00
Very strange.... I've only been encouraging here. I'm building this but waiting on parts. I've gotten some today. I've been building electronic devices for over 50 years. No that's not my age. I know voltage doesn't kill - where did that come from. I said nothing about voltage. It doesn't even sound like your message is directed at me as it makes no sense - I wasn't arguing anything. I was asking about COP which I didn't know if you had a load you measured on or what so I was largely asking and had simply calculated by multiplying the input you gave Volts times amps and dividing that result into the result from the output you gave volts times amps. In other words watts in divided into watts out. I don't have any problems and am just trying to understand and was trying to be supportive but you are acting like a full moon crazy. I really don't understand your reaction here and it doesn't sound like you unless you been tipping a few too many brews ? Any way I intended nothing offensive toward you. No need to leave here because of me - I'm not on this forum that much anyway. Regards
There is only COP 1 in a transformer.
And I have never claimed higher in a simple transformer circuit.
And perhaps I overreacted.
I'm sorry and have no excuse.
Quote from: e2matrix on 2012.08.03, 02:16:42
Draw is .032 A x 4.5 V = 0.144 watts
Output is .0086 A x 250 V = 2.15 watts
Output / Input = 2.15 / 0.144 = 14.93 more out than in - but I'm just comparing watts not Joules so maybe that means nothing. I was asking. I don't know all this in depth but I thought it sounded good and encouraging. Almost too good so I was ASKING. I do not know why you would take offense for that.
I shorted the output to a multimeter,
And I measured the input.
But I did not claim anything.
No worries janost. Everything is cool O0
Never mind.
My orignal circut is still running after the first stop.
In my circuit the magic voltage is 2,81v
I dont know why.
@Janost
About diode choice, it is not because your diode choice works that it means it is the best one to use. Very often out of 10 diodes, only one will give double the output then the others. I use what I call a diode carousel that enables you to switch from one model to the other very quickly to find the best output or effect you are looking for.
The other point again is frequency. You could be 1500Hz away from greatest result and never know it if you cannot hunt for the best frequency to run your device. This again could double your output.
Once you find the best frequency, you should then again hunt for the best diode just to make sure the one you have found is still the best.
About the 2.81 volts. Seems like at higher battery volts the system works but generates an unrecoverable loss, until it self stabilizes to a neutral condition.
From what I know of batteries, you can only recharge them up to 20% of the amp rating. Any more and it is wasted since the battery cannot store more in that time interval. Chances are if you put 2 sets of batteries in parallel, this will increase your amp rating and should increase the battery recharge ability to absorb more juice and may give you more power to work with at your neutral condition and may light your led brighter and now instead of 2.81 volts as the neutral condition, it could be higher. But of course it is all up for trials.
Keep on man.
wattsup
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 02:22:37
I shorted the output to a multimeter,
And I measured the input.
But I did not claim anything.
If you short the output with a multimeter and measure 0.086A, then the O/P voltage cannot be 250V. To get a better idea use a range of load resistors and plot a curve to see maximum output voltage across the load resistor. you will see from this that the output power will be much lower than the input. Also, if you think that your earth lead is drawing up electrons, then fit a very low value resistor in series with the lead and scope across it to see if you have a voltage / current waveform that can be measured. Also, try to use good quality analogue meters, not DVM's when measuring HV/HF circuits.
Hoppy
Quote from: wattsup on 2012.08.03, 03:55:46
@Janost
About diode choice, it is not because your diode choice works that it means it is the best one to use. Very often out of 10 diodes, only one will give double the output then the others. I use what I call a diode carousel that enables you to switch from one model to the other very quickly to find the best output or effect you are looking for.
The other point again is frequency. You could be 1500Hz away from greatest result and never know it if you cannot hunt for the best frequency to run your device. This again could double your output.
Once you find the best frequency, you should then again hunt for the best diode just to make sure the one you have found is still the best.
About the 2.81 volts. Seems like at higher battery volts the system works but generates an unrecoverable loss, until it self stabilizes to a neutral condition.
From what I know of batteries, you can only recharge them up to 20% of the amp rating. Any more and it is wasted since the battery cannot store more in that time interval. Chances are if you put 2 sets of batteries in parallel, this will increase your amp rating and should increase the battery recharge ability to absorb more juice and may give you more power to work with at your neutral condition and may light your led brighter and now instead of 2.81 volts as the neutral condition, it could be higher. But of course it is all up for trials.
Keep on man.
wattsup
Why didnt I think of that? :)
I'll try 2 or more batterys parallell.
@ Hoppy,
QuoteAlso, if you think that your earth lead is drawing up electrons, then fit a very low value resistor in series with the lead and scope across it to see if you have a voltage / current waveform that can be measured
I did that in my replications using a 0.1 Ohm resistor, and indeed there was a waveform across the resistor indicating current draw from ground.
It was mA's, but still.
Waiting for my 220V GDT's to arrive, but when available i will repeat this measurement and record it on video.
Regards Itsu
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 07:17:13
If you short the output with a multimeter and measure 0.086A, then the O/P voltage cannot be 250V. To get a better idea use a range of load resistors and plot a curve to see maximum output voltage across the load resistor. you will see from this that the output power will be much lower than the input. Also, if you think that your earth lead is drawing up electrons, then fit a very low value resistor in series with the lead and scope across it to see if you have a voltage / current waveform that can be measured. Also, try to use good quality analogue meters, not DVM's when measuring HV/HF circuits.
Hoppy
If you compress a spring and let it go the exact force used to compress it comes out when it expands, right?
If you compress it and place it on the ground the same force comes out but it also jumps up in the air.
Why doesnt it only expand and stay on the ground?
Because the ground is a mass that pushes back against the spring.
The same goes for the ground-rod.
If you take a capacitor and connect one end to ground and the other end to a HV supply it will charge.
Same with a LED it will light even though the HV supply has no connection to ground other than through the LED.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 07:17:13
If you short the output with a multimeter and measure 0.086A, then the O/P voltage cannot be 250V.
If I put a 15w 230V bulb on the output it glows dimmly.
These type of vibrator inverters was used in the 50ties to make vacuumtube radios run on batteries.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 09:14:15
...
Same with a LED it will light even though the HV supply has no connection to ground other than through the LED.
There is always at some degree, a capacitive coupling between any conductor and the ground. For instance the winding conductor of a HV supply constitutes the "plate" of a capacitor and the other plate is the ground or any near conductor. Even if this capacity is low, on the order of pF, its impedance is not negligible at high frequencies or when signals have sharp transitions. This explains why a current can pass through a "single wire": an apparently open circuit is in fact never open but looped, there is always a capacitive connection to the ground or to a return path. As you seem to be skilled in electronics, I'm sure you understand what I mean and should agree, isn't it? So this explains why it is difficult to modelize your setup or predict its behavior: we would need to know the characteristics of the capacitive coupling of the "ground rod" with all other components around it, and this is not trivial (and the problem is even worse than it seems, because a measurement disturbs the circuit, a simple voltmeter or an oscilloscope probe adding parasitic capacities!) :(.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.08.03, 10:34:06
There is always at some degree, a capacitive coupling between any conductor and the ground. For instance the winding conductor of a HV supply constitutes the "plate" of a capacitor and the other plate is the ground or any near conductor. Even if this capacity is low, on the order of pF, its impedance is not negligible at high frequencies or when signals have sharp transitions. This explains why a current can pass through a "single wire": an apparently open circuit is in fact never open but looped, there is always a capacitive connection to the ground or to a return path. As you seem to be skilled in electronics, I'm sure you understand what I mean and should agree, isn't it? So this explains why it is difficult to modelize your setup or predict its behavior: we would need to know the characteristics of the capacitive coupling of the "ground rod" with all other components around it, and this is not trivial (and the problem is even worse than it seems, because a measurement disturbs the circuit, a simple voltmeter or an oscilloscope probe adding parasitic capacities!) :(.
I know what you mean by capacitive coupling.
But the effect is larger than what could be explained with that.
And the input current is not affected when you load the output and should be if it was a capacitive coupling.
Care to explain my spring therory?
Why doesnt it just expand and stay on the ground?
What makes it jump into the air if the force is same as free expanding?
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 09:47:27
If I put a 15w 230V bulb on the output it glows dimmly.
These type of vibrator inverters was used in the 50ties to make vacuumtube radios run on batteries.
Your 15W bulb is not a short circuit. Put your DVM across the bulb (set on the same current range you used to measure the 0.0086 Amps), then with another DVM measure the voltage across the bulb. Also, measure the voltage across the bulb without the short circuit across it. It will not be anything close to 250V in either case.
Hoppy
Quote from: Itsu on 2012.08.03, 08:58:59
@ Hoppy,
I did that in my replications using a 0.1 Ohm resistor, and indeed there was a waveform across the resistor indicating current draw from ground.
It was mA's, but still.
Waiting for my 220V GDT's to arrive, but when available i will repeat this measurement and record it on video.
Regards Itsu
Itsu,
Is the current source from the ground or from the battery powering the circuit?
Hoppy
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 10:48:46
...
Care to explain my spring therory?
Why doesnt it just expand and stay on the ground?
What makes it jump into the air if the force is same as free expanding?
I understand your spring theory but it modelizes only roughly the behavior of charges. I agree that you can see the ground rod as a reservoir of charges that would constitute a steady state of potential, or a voltage reference, on which charges could lean "for jumping", as a spring. This is approximately what is happening.
But not exactely. The charges in a conductor are very mobile. They don't constitute a block unlike the earth which is like a steady block allowing the spring to jump. Any change of the topology of charges near a ground conductor, for instance when the voltage of a HV transformer rises to a peek, influences the charges of that ground conductor. These charges move toward a new pattern minimizing the electric field and their potential energy (principle of least action). This change of the charge pattern of the ground conductor influences step by step (but at near the speed of light) the other charges of the environment including these of the circuit that were cause of the first change. This is equivalent to a current looping in a circuit and physically explains the electronics viewpoint of the circuit looped by the capacities that always exist between near conductors.
Hoppy,
QuoteIs the current source from the ground or from the battery powering the circuit?
this current source is from ground (ground rod).
Regards Itsu
Quote from: Itsu on 2012.08.03, 12:20:58
Hoppy,
this current source is from ground (ground rod).
Regards Itsu
Itsu,
How do you know / be sure that the current is not being sourced from the battery and being capacitively coupled to ground through the earth rod?
Hoppy
Due to the extreme non-linearity of a tungsten filament, lamps do not make good loads for circuits that may be very sensitive to load impedance.
In certain lamps, a cold filament may be in the order of milliohms, which can be a near short on the DUT. After it heats up a bit the resistance moves into the ohmic range and the energy can then have a more reasonable load to work into.
Oftentimes the DUT cannot provide enough surge amperage to overcome the cold resistance of the incandescent lamp.
For example, a 100-watt, 120-volt lamp has a resistance of 144 ohms when lit, but the cold resistance is much lower (about 9.5 ohms).
Twelve volt automotive lamps, such as brake llamps have lower initial resistance.
A variable resistor as the load can be a better help in impedance matching the DUT, and makes calculation of power easier.
In some cases though, an incandescent bulb will try to automatically find the impedance sweet spot, providing the DUT can provide the current to overcome the cold resistance and if the lamp is suitably sized to the DUT output.
In the final analysis, an incandescent lamp can provide "rough eyeball" indication of power output without DSO's true RMS multimeters etc. so are not to be ignored.
Hoppy,
QuoteItsu,
How do you know / be sure that the current is not being sourced from the battery and being capacitive coupled to ground through the earth rod?
I don't, i only see a waveform across a 0.1 Ohm resistor in the ground path.
Normally this waveform across a 0.1 Ohm resistor comes from the current going through this resistor, but it could be inductively or capacitive coupled onto this ground wire/resistor, who knows.
It was just an observation i did after you mentioned to do this as an extra measurement.
When i have my GDT's i will repeat this and show the results.
Regards Itsu
Wattsup, that's a brilliant idea about a Diode Carrousel.
Thanks for sharing.
I'm going to run my ticker like this with a Lead-Acid battery and 2 ground-rods.
Pumping the 350V pulses through ground pulse-charging the battery.
Perhaps even using a GDT between the bridge-rectifier and the battery.
The 3 diodes are only used as a voltagedrop to the relay-vibrator.
Janost, Please tell us what kind of software you create your circuit schematics with.
Is there a place where we can download that schematic drawing software?
THANK YOU for sharing your great circuits.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 09:14:15
If you take a capacitor and connect one end to ground and the other end to a HV supply it will charge.
Try it.
Quote from: AllPhase on 2012.08.03, 14:16:08
Janost, Please tell us what kind of software you create your circuit schematics with.
Is there a place where we can download that schematic drawing software?
THANK YOU for sharing your great circuits.
It is here
http://www.expresspcb.com/expresspcbhtm/Free_schematic_software.htm
And it is free for personal use.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 14:34:28
It is here
http://www.expresspcb.com/expresspcbhtm/Free_schematic_software.htm
And it is free for personal use.
Good software for free! PCB service is expensive for small quantity boards but reasonable on large runs.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 14:38:52
Good software for free! PCB service is expensive for small quantity boards but reasonable on large runs.
Hoppy
The really nifty thing about it is that if you want to make a PCB from your schematic it will do so automagically O0
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 13:54:31
I'm going to run my ticker like this with a Lead-Acid battery and 2 ground-rods.
Pumping the 350V pulses through ground pulse-charging the battery.
Perhaps even using a GDT between the bridge-rectifier and the battery.
The 3 diodes are only used as a voltagedrop to the relay-vibrator.
I dont know if this needs 2 groundings but I wanted to test if it makes any difference pumping through the ground.
If my theory is correct and ground is a huge mass then it should act like an electrolytic capacitor with a large capitance.
In that case perhaps the 2 grounds should be connected on each side of the battery.
My ground-rods are 2 of those crossshaped galvanized fence-post things that you hammer into the ground to support a pole in the fence.
They are 60cm tall (2ft) and it took a sledgehammer to drive them into the ground.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 14:57:29
I dont know if this needs 2 groundings but I wanted to test if it makes any difference pumping through the ground.
If my theory is correct and ground is a huge mass then it should act like an electrolytic capacitor with a large capitance.
In that case perhaps the 2 grounds should be connected on each side of the battery.
My ground-rods are 2 of those crossshaped galvanized fence-post things that you hammer into the ground to support a pole in the fence.
They are 60cm tall (2ft) and it took a sledgehammer to drive them into the ground.
If you measure the ground between two ground rod points it will have resistance, so as your two rods are effectively forming a conductor in your circuit, then you have a resistor, not a capacitor, in series with the battery or across the battery depending where you connect the rods.
This principle is used to measure ground resistivity for archaeological surveying etc.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 15:17:57
If you measure the ground between two ground rod points it will have resistance, so as your two rods are effectively forming a conductor in your circuit, then you have a resistor, not a capacitor, in series with the battery or across the battery depending where you connect the rods.
This principle is used to measure ground resistivity for archaeological surveying etc.
Hoppy
Try this, I have and it works.
Drive 2 galvanized nails into the ground about 1meter apart.
Measure with a multimeter the voltage between the 2 nails, it should read perhaps 0.5v
Now connect a 12V battery to the 2 nails and leave it connected for about a minute.
Then measure the voltage again between the 2 nails.
There you have it, a capacitor!
The ground works as the electrolytic and can be charged.
In my schematics that would effectivly put a capacitor in series with the battery.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 15:27:42
Try this, I have and it works.
Drive 2 galvanized nails into the ground about 1meter apart.
Measure with a multimeter the voltage between the 2 nails, it should read perhaps 0.5v
Now connect a 12V battery to the 2 nails and leave it connected for about a minute.
Then measure the voltage again between the 2 nails.
There you have it, a capacitor!
The ground works as the electrolytic and can be charged.
I suggest what you are seeing here is galvanic action. The earth rods and soil are acting as a cell that is charged by the 12V battery. The potential across the ground rods quickly falls when the 12V battery is removed. In effect there would be no gain because the circuit battery would in effect be charging an external earth battery and the energy stored would be leaked off between pulses and not returned to the 12v battery.
Hoppy
Regarding the shunt resistor in series with the ground rod:
If you have AC across the resistor, current is flowing into and out of the ground rod.
A steady DC would indicate flow in one direction. (pumping with no backflow)
Since the AV plug has two diodes you can expect that the capacitive coupled ground currents will be AC.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 15:54:25
I suggest what you are seeing here is galvanic action. The earth rods and soil are acting as a cell that is charged by the 12V battery. The potential across the ground rods quickly falls when the 12V battery is removed. In effect there would be no gain because the circuit battery would in effect be charging an external earth battery and the energy stored would be leaked off between pulses and not returned to the 12v battery.
Hoppy
Galvanic action? Between 2 equal metals?
And the charge does not leak off that fast. It could light a LED for almost a minute
It would not leak off with my 300Hz pulses and fullwave rectified it is 600Hz.
Quote from: ION on 2012.08.03, 15:58:47
Regarding the shunt resistor in series with the ground rod:
If you have AC across the resistor, current is flowing into and out of the ground rod.
A steady DC would indicate flow in one direction. (pumping with no backflow)
Since the AV plug has two diodes you can expect that the capacitive coupled ground currents will be AC.
The AV-plug works with just 1 diode aswell.
That would make the current go in one direction only.
The blocking oscillator works with kickback so there is only pulses in one direction.
But to be sure, put a diode in the ground connection.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 16:02:25
Galvanic action? Between 2 equal metals?
And the charge does not leak off that fast. It could light a LED for almost a minute
It would not leak off with my 300Hz pulses and fullwave rectified it is 600Hz.
Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?
Even if no appreciable leakage, how do you gain any stored potential over that applied?
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 16:10:39
Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?
Even if no appreciable leakage, how do you gain any stored potential over that applied?
Hoppy
It would improve the ESR of the battery and draw the current-spikes from the ground instead of the battery.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 16:10:39
Then why do you read 0.5V before any battery is connected?
It was just an example.
There are always currents in the ground between 2 separate points.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 16:13:54
It would improve the ESR of the battery and draw the current-spikes from the ground instead of the battery.
Hopefully you are right on this and can demonstrate more out than in as measured in Joules.
Hoppy
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 16:16:14
It was just an example.
There are always currents in the ground between 2 separate points.
Yes, this is well known through both geological anomalies (telluric currents) and man made earth currents which is why you can measure a voltage between two separate points. There has to be a current flow for a voltage to be measured between two points. However, the increased potential you measure when applying an external battery to the ground rods, is not a capacitive effect.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 16:57:30
Yes, this is well known through both geological anomalies (telluric currents) and man made earth currents which is why you can measure a voltage between two separate points. There has to be a current flow for a voltage to be measured between two points. However, the increased potential you measure when applying an external battery to the ground rods, is not a capacitive effect.
Hoppy
You are right.
I would more call it charging an earthbattery.
Collecting ions on one of the rods.
Never the less it could still work.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 17:18:06
You are right.
I would more call it charging an earthbattery.
Collecting ions on one of the rods.
Never the less it could still work.
As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 17:41:23
As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.
Hoppy
A charging capacitor in series with a battery will dump its load into the battery.
Look at it as a voltagedivider.
And the cap with a higer voltage than the battery.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 18:13:15
A charging capacitor in series with a battery will dump its load into the battery.
Look at it as a voltagedivider.
And the cap with a higer voltage than the battery.
Please post a schematic to show this arrangement.
Hoppy
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.03, 17:41:23
As Grumpy commented earlier a capacitor to earth with HV on the other plate will IMO be a better candidate for pumping any free electrons into the circuit. The cap must be dumped to the battery whilst it is not on load.
Hoppy
I meant to indicate that this will not work. If you could charge a capacitor with just a ground connection on one plate and hv potential on the other plate, then you would already have solved your energy problems.
Quote from: AllPhase on 2012.08.03, 13:50:48
Wattsup, that's a brilliant idea about a Diode Carrousel.
Thanks for sharing.
You're quite right, Allphase. It is the simplicity that is its elegance. And the idea
should work for resistors, capacitors or most things where one needs to try
out many different values quickly.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.08.03, 21:54:54
I meant to indicate that this will not work. If you could charge a capacitor with just a ground connection on one plate and hv potential on the other plate, then you would already have solved your energy problems.
I see that you have not tried it.
Never mind. Evetualluy you will and see how it works.
I feel you heat your home with oil or electricity and nothing else you better keep your mouth shut.
You are not allowed to say anything.
My home is heated with a heatpump and that goes further saving this planet.
Janost,
Please try a Spark Gap just before the diodes. I think the circuit performance will sky rocket.
Maybe you could use a spark plug for the Spark Gap.
Thanks.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.03, 23:40:25
I see that you have not tried it.
Never mind. Evetualluy you will and see how it works.
I feel you heat your home with oil or electricity and nothing else you better keep your mouth shut.
You are not allowed to say anything.
My home is heated with a heatpump and that goes further saving this planet.
I have tried it. It does not work. If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation. Free electricity would abound. An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply. The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home. You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".
Moderator note: please don't be grumpy, Grumpy, as I deleted one non-technical sentence -- Janost was invited to the OUR forum and I'd like to see him treated as a guest, OK?
Let's all take a deep breath and be friendly. Please.
Janost has been very generous with sharing his ideas. Thanks to you both.
Cheers, Steve.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.08.04, 02:22:58
Free electricity would abound.
It does abound. That is the point of our work.
Getting at it is the problem.
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.08.04, 02:22:58
I have tried it. It does not work. If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation. Free electricity would abound. An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply. The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home. You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".
Moderator note: please don't be grumpy, Grumpy, as I deleted one non-technical sentence -- Janost was invited to the OUR forum and I'd like to see him treated as a guest, OK?
Let's all take a deep breath and be friendly. Please.
Janost has been very generous with sharing his ideas. Thanks to you both.
Cheers, Steve.
No hard feelings :)
The capacitor needs to be dequeued from the HV-supply with a diode.
There are clearly many circuit configurations that can be tried but the acid test for self-running is to leave it running long enough for it to cease running. O0
Hoppy
Quote from: Grumpy on 2012.08.04, 02:22:58
I have tried it. It does not work. If it did, I could convert electrical potential to stored electrical charge and we would not be having this conversation. Free electricity would abound. An electrostatic generator would be a true power supply. The static from sliding your socks on a carpet would light and heat your home. You could charge millions of capacitors by connecting them to the positive terminal of a hv supply - and charge them without doing "work".
That is exactly what an AV-plug does.
It is dequeued from the supply, charging a capacitor with electric potential.
2 or more parallell AV-plugs does not change the current consumed by the HV-supply.
Quote from: Hoppy on 2012.08.04, 10:49:29
There are clearly many circuit configurations that can be tried but the acid test of self-running is to leave it running long enough for it to cease running. O0
Hoppy
My battery is 4.5Ah so it should run at least 6 days if its not charging it self.
This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.
If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery it will run a VERY long time utilizing the flywheel effect and BEMF of the motor as energy-storage.
The relay only draws 7.5mA to keep the motor spinning and the BEMF charges the cap it is running from.
This is probably not a self-runner but the small power reqired to keep the momentum could be provided by a garden-light solarcell and the energy could be harvested from the relaycoil kickback.
Or even 2 ground-rods to handle the current spikes.
I have a large 24V Scooter-motor and 4 15000uF 63V caps to try this generator setup with.
I just need to find a large flywheel to put on the motor.
@janost
Regarding the last diagram above, I see you are using a mechanical relay in that set-up. I have done much pulsing schemes with relays especially during some tests with the Tesla ozone patent where there is first a good source coil of high inductive ability on the negative line from the battery. When I ran the system and optimized it and needed to create a new effect for faster pulsing because of the mechanical drawbacks of the relay, the only thing I could find was to cut the relay spring that pulls back the relay contacts by one turn at a time, making it act a little faster as long as the relay coil has enough juice to draw it in. If you only have one relay of that type this is not a good idea but if you have an extra relay on hand that can remain original, it may be a way to push your circuit further.
Then there is the DC motor where if it is using carbon brushes on a commutator, sometimes if the brush is filled down on the width (not the face) slightly it will create more kickback because there is a slight delay in the commutator to commutator overlapping.
I guess what I am trying to convey is that yes you can play around with variables of the EE components, but the mechanical attributes can be slightly modified as well, but it is a learning curve that does not forgive and having two identical motors or relays is the best to be able to revert back to the original set-up if the physical mods do not pan out.
I am curious to know if you put a potentiometer in series to a small polarized capacitor that are both in series on the positive line going to the relay coil, could this enable you to adjust a more suitable operation of the relay?
wattsup
Added:
Maybe add a germanium diode in series to the pot as well.
Quote from: wattsup on 2012.08.04, 16:48:13
@janost
Regarding the last diagram above, I see you are using a mechanical relay in that set-up. I have done much pulsing schemes with relays especially during some tests with the Tesla ozone patent where there is first a good source coil of high inductive ability on the negative line from the battery. When I ran the system and optimized it and needed to create a new effect for faster pulsing because of the mechanical drawbacks of the relay, the only thing I could find was to cut the relay spring that pulls back the relay contacts by one turn at a time, making it act a little faster as long as the relay coil has enough juice to draw it in. If you only have one relay of that type this is not a good idea but if you have an extra relay on hand that can remain original, it may be a way to push your circuit further.
Then there is the DC motor where if it is using carbon brushes on a commutator, sometimes if the brush is filled down on the width (not the face) slightly it will create more kickback because there is a slight delay in the commutator to commutator overlapping.
I guess what I am trying to convey is that yes you can play around with variables of the EE components, but the mechanical attributes can be slightly modified as well, but it is a learning curve that does not forgive and having two identical motors or relays is the best to be able to revert back to the original set-up if the physical mods do not pan out.
I am curious to know if you put a potentiometer in series to a small polarized capacitor that are both in series on the positive line going to the relay coil, could this enable you to adjust a more suitable operation of the relay?
wattsup
Added:
Maybe add a germanium diode in series to the pot as well.
Thanks for the input. You are sharp :)
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.04, 13:18:26
This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.
If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery...
This will need to be an outrunnner type motor with magnets generating
fields, won't it?
Quote from: Paul-R on 2012.08.05, 14:11:50
This will need to be an outrunnner type motor with magnets generating
fields, won't it?
Yes.
Otherwise it would need power to the stator to act as a generator.
And brushless motors are AC.
While working prefectly well as 3-phase generators, they need 3-phase AC to run.
I also have an old vacuum-cleaner motor that would generate line-level power.
But as they are the universal type it wont generate any BEMF without at least a capacitor on the statorwinding.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.04, 13:18:26
If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery...
It would be interesting to stick a stroboscopic disc to the flywheel (to determine
the r.p.m. when viewed with artificial light), disconnect the circuit, and spin it
up to a certain arbitrary speed. Time how long it takes to come to rest.
Then connect up the circuit, spin the motor up to the same speed, judging
by the stroboscopic disc, and time how long it takes to come to rest.
And compare the times.
Here is a stroboscopic disc:
http://www.mbhifi.it/engvolet.htm
Sorry for not updating lately but my summer holiday is over and I have to work.
Work gives me money to experiment with new things.
And also food and a roof over my head :)
But I'll still post here, just not as frequently.
Quote from: janost on 2012.08.04, 13:18:26
This is also an interesting configuration if you dont have access to super-caps.
If the motor is spun by hand or started with a battery it will run a VERY long time utilizing the flywheel effect and BEMF of the motor as energy-storage.
The relay only draws 7.5mA to keep the motor spinning and the BEMF charges the cap it is running from.
This is probably not a self-runner but the small power reqired to keep the momentum could be provided by a garden-light solarcell and the energy could be harvested from the relaycoil kickback.
Or even 2 ground-rods to handle the current spikes.
I have a large 24V Scooter-motor and 4 15000uF 63V caps to try this generator setup with.
I just need to find a large flywheel to put on the motor.
The motor will be providing an oscillating input to a circuit containing two or more
of R, L or C.
Therefore, there should be a resonance optimising issue, shouldn't there?
Quote from: Paul-R on 2012.08.09, 11:31:39
The motor will be providing an oscillating input to a circuit containing two or more
of R, L or C.
Therefore, there should be a resonance optimising issue, shouldn't there?
Yes.
The resonance is in the combination of the flywheel-momentum and the capacitor.
Energy is stored in the rotation of the flywheel and the relay just adds from the capacitor what is needed to keep the speed up.
.
.
.
.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.08, 18:48:43
Guess who's back :)
And back with a new selfrunner O0
...
I have plenty of selfrunners with a battery. I have also many selfrunners on the mains. I have some other selfrunners based on gasoline. But you know, here, we are rather interested in selfrunners without conventional sources of energy ;D.
It is easy to make electronics oscillators working with very weak currents. A NDR is not even the best solution, I can build a FET oscillator working with less than 5v, 1mA, i.e. for months on a battery or for hours on a capacitor. And what? Should I claim a "selfrunner"?! C.C
The fact that the power that is consumed can be less when the system is looped is irrelevant, because the power that is drawn depends on the point of operation, which depends on the parameters of the circuit.
A negative resistance is a dynamical effect appearing around a given point V/I of polarization. Only a variation around the point of operation is negative, meaning that Rn=dV/dI<0. But the resistance is globally positive, meaning that R=V/I>0 and therefore dissipates energy.
.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.09, 08:07:04
Who are "we"?
Do you know that you just positioned yourself as a frontfigure for the whole forum?
You should think to the name of this forum: "overunityresearch". It's not "conventional electronics fun".
Quote
I would define a selfrunner as something that runs for weeks or years and delivers power during that time.
Don't worry, it is really what I had understood. That is why I said that I have also plenty of selfrunners.
Quote
Taken that it's just a cople of hours to charge that battery up again.
Certainly not.
Quote
If I can make it run for a week on a cap, isn't that a selfrunner?
It's not.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.09, 08:07:04
Who are "we"?
Do you know that you just positioned yourself as a frontfigure for the whole forum?
I would define a selfrunner as something that runs for weeks or years and delivers power during that time.
Taken that it's just a cople of hours to charge that battery up again.
If I can make it run for a week on a cap, isn't that a selfrunner?
People have different definitions for many things.
My definition of a self runner is a device that once started by a minimal amount of operator applied energy
the device will produce it's own motive power indefinitely, it needs not provide a usable output just self run.
The device should need to be stopped purposefully after any reasonable length of time, no one expects a self
runner to be able to run without maintainence for months.
But a self runner cannot be supplied a constant supply of user provided energy. If running from a cap there should
either be a net gain of potential energy in the capacitor or an unchanging value, if the cap loses charge then the
device will eventually stop and so cannot be called as self runner.
Efficiency itself is not really based on the smaller the input the more efficient it is. If the tiny input of even 1 hundredth
of a Watt was all wasted and no useful work is gained from it then it is very inefficient. Things that would seem to be efficient
at very low power levels often are not at higher power levels, so the usefulness is limited of many low powered circuits.
It is also much easier to make measurement errors with lower levels of power so many are not convinced by LED power level device efficiencies.
If you think you may be onto something don't let a couple of opinions hold you back.
Cheers
.
.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.09, 09:22:08
Well perpetual motion is impossible.
Even a lamp eventually breaks down because of component ageing even though it is constantly supplied power.
...
Of course a "perpetual motion" is not eternal. But the reliability is not the point. The concept of "perpetual motion" widely adopted everywhere is different from your own definition:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perpetual_motion
It's not a question of reliability but of principle. The perpetual motion is supposed to be impossible not because something will break at a moment or another, but according to scientists, because the energy is conserved in a closed system but there are always losses that dissipate it.
Once you demonstrate that the capacitor powering your circuit is recharged (easy, you just have to show that its voltage remains constant or increases), you have demonstrated a perpetual motion, even if the circuit fails some time later because the electrolytic capacitor becomes dry or the wires oxidize and break or whatever else.
A real negative resistance in a closed system having nothing to do with the creation of energy, I'd be rather amazed that you provided this demonstration. In any case, in despite of your claim of selfrunner, it's not yet done.
.
Janost:
This circuit is not novel and wastes considerable energy in the charging resistor.
Also since it is a resonant oscillator (as opposed to flyback), you would do better to improve the impedance mismatch from the secondary back to the source
This circuit can be also accomplished with a DIAC or with 2 transistors configured as a regenerative switch.
It is basically a relaxation oscillator kicking a resonant circuit.
You might wish to try an inductor of high value to replace the resistor for greater efficiency, but if the holding current of the switch is exceeded it will stay latched to the on state.
Folks who play with these circuits should try using a capacitor as source or very low AH batteries to expedite the test, lest they deceive themselves into thinking they have something novel because it runs a long time due to low current draw.
There is no substitute for careful I / O measurements.
.
.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.09, 13:37:55
I looked at some of your posts recently and 99% of them are negative.
I'm amazed that you spend so much time on a site like this?
I'll just ignore your comments and keep up my work :)
I feel the same negativity on your side: you refused to take into account either the objections about the functioning or the informations about the nature of negative resistances (they work only in a narrow range of voltage/current around a biased point, consuming energy). You ignored the need of measuring the capacitor voltage that powers your circuit, only way to prove it is a "selfrunner".
Your alleged work was not a "work" but in the best case a flippant misinterpretation of an ordinary circuit and in the worst, a falsification.
Now that ION suggested that you lead proper measurements, you honnestly admit that your circuit runs only "for 32 seconds on 15000uF" and so is not a selfrunner. So I was right, and you was wrong to affirm the contrary prematurely, in spite the lack of evidence.
Quote from: exnihiloest on 2012.10.10, 08:40:19
Your alleged work was not a "work" but in the best case a flippant misinterpretation of an ordinary circuit and in the worst, a falsification.
Yes, your right.
How could I be so stupid and belive that I actually did some work?
It was a flippant misinterpretation of an ordinary circuit and a falsification.
Sorry
It wont happen again.
Back to the energeticforum again.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.11, 08:40:18
Back to the energeticforum again.
This thread was incorrectly titled and misleading from the outset. No proof of a self runner was ever demonstrated nor were any proper measurements of the circuits viability performed.
Famous quote: "If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen"
If constructive critique of your circuit is not welcome, why do you post it here? Maybe you belong in the good old boys club over at EF where illusions and backslapping prevail.
Quote from: janost on 2012.10.10, 10:36:20
Yes, your right.
How could I be so stupid and belive that I actually did some work?
It was a flippant misinterpretation of an ordinary circuit and a falsification.
Sorry
It wont happen again.
do you think supression exists ? thank you for your effords
I have only shown the circuit and did not even get around to use ground or radiant energy yet.
I think the critisism wasn´t very objective.
If the requirement for playing with these toys is an university degree I would say that your not allowed to play with computers as I have a university degree in computers.
I'm not on my back yet but will be more careful about what I post.
Quote from: ION on 2012.10.11, 13:20:43
This thread was incorrectly titled and misleading from the outset. No proof of a self runner was ever demonstrated nor were any proper measurements of the circuits viability performed.
I did not start this thread.
And I was invited to this forum because of the devices in this thread.
It doesnt hurt to be a bit polite ;)
Sorry if I offended, I was trying to help you overcome a few hurdles. That's why I offered circuit suggestions and improvements. I have worked with these circuits before.
I will stay out of this thread if it is your desire.
Why dont you just use an enormous high voltage trough a coil, run through a gigantic magnetic field, straight down into an electrolysis bath?
Shouldnt that give some OU?
Oh, forgot the special, special, out of this world windings required for the coil.
Should they go across or by the wind?
None of the above is required to extract power from the envoirement.
But keep going.
At least your having fun on your spare time.
Cheesus :o
Answer a simple question, anybody.
If you have one capacitor, disconnected on the shelf, why does it selfcharge?
And if it does, why dont you have a hundred or a thousand of them?
It is a characteristic of dielectric elastance.
If a capacitor was formerly charged, then discharged,
when idle and disconnected from any external loading
it will recover charge from the dielectric.
To fully discharge a capacitor to eliminate elastance
re-charging it is necessary to short its terminals
for a period of many hours.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dielectric_absorption
Here are 2 versions that fix the impendance problem.
Before the switch fires the cap has infinite (almost) impendance to the battery.
When it fires the capacitor is short circuted across the battery.
The SCR version is better because it totaly depletes the cap before release while the transistor version releases with a remaining charge in the cap.
Recycling the energy is a nice idea to play with. We can certainly enjoy experimenting with this.
Not sure of the purpose of the 5mH inductor across the primary?
One thought: Your SCR version will not allow more than about one volt of charge on your recycle cap before the SCR fires, since it's gate requires only around 0.6 volts above the cathode to fire.
If you try to get higher firing voltage by increasing the gate resistor, you starve the gate of current, which is a bad way to fire an SCR, because SCR's like a sharp pulse or sufficient pulse current drive at the gate so that the pulse can propagate across the wafer rapidly. Failure to do this can damage the SCR by creating a hot spot or current hogging, especially when operated close to it's maximum A-K current ratings
I have offered some similar circuits here:
http://www.overunityresearch.com/index.php?topic=604.msg25876;topicseen#msg25876
The 5mH inductor is because the primary of the transformer to high DC-resistans for the circuit to oscillate at 12v.
The avalange voltage for a 2N2222A is around 8v.
If I charge a separate battery (not the same that I´m running from) it charges ok.
But when I run a feedback the charging is not so good.
Here is a classic demonstration of resonance.
An ignitioncoil run backwards, driving 6VAC into the secondary (HV-winding) of the coil through a series resonance with a frequency of 50Hz.
In a series resonant circuit at resonance the voltagedrop over the capacitor or the inductor is Q times higher than the voltage supplied but 180deg out of phase.
So here the 6VAC will light a CFL connected over the cap.
Note that the ignitioncoil is still a transformer so the voltage over the HV-winding is transformed down but the output is not used in this circuit.
If your goal is just to light a CFL from 6Vac or pulsed DC then you can use this circuit.
It will work without a wallwart with a 2:1 transformer on 110v line or 1:1 transformer on 230v line power.
Warning! With a capacitor matching the transformer for series resonance the output is about 1 Kilovolt!